Hi. I'm not sure if you saw it or not, but dead9 uploaded it at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10033445/The Fight to the Top.pdf. If that doesn't suffice, hopefully someone can upload a downloadable version and perhaps I can get around to updating the OP... After reading your mention of google drive, there's some "good news" and some bad news: I was reminded that I actually do have a word document saved on there, as long as a PDF version. But, even if I didn't have to edit it, which I do, I'd still have to download a trial and convert it. That might not sound like a biggie, but you made me realize that I really have an aversion towards the past, as well as the future/present...
In other words, tomorrow, I'm going to wake up and not want to see this post. And if I did, I would sigh, shake my head, and then think "what was he thinking? Why?" *shrugs* While I'm not sure how normal it is to have a sense of "oh gawd..." when looking at anything in retrospect, that would be a problem here unless someone else steps up to the plate -- granted the above link does not suffice. Given what I have said, I'd urge you to simply watch old day[9] dailies
As for the person that linked to the SSL, thanks. That's fantastic. I'm going to try to catch the finals. I watched one game, from "the top 10." Heh, I'm kinda worried if I watch more that I might not find the willpower to stomach watching anymore WoL. Even in a "bad game," it's hard to not be in a state of awe, after realizing how the players are doing so many things manually, seemingly at once. WoL might be more interesting if pros played with similar mechanics, but even then, I just don't see a comparison.
To my knowledge, I made one of the fastest ascensions through the ranks and rankings within a top SC country (US). Comparable to Koll and Morrow. If it were brag worthy, you wouldn't write a book on it. As it simply boils down to playing a lot, having efficient practice, and going about improvement in effective ways.
On January 08 2012 23:34 Sawamura wrote: I like the idea you raise up , for example if your opponent isn't doing something to kill you , he's cooking up some other drastic plan to make your life miserable .Again I want to thank you for this awesome guide . It's recommended that any newbie who wants to be better at broodwar , has to read playa's fight to the top guide .
Thanks. I haven't played a game since uploading the FP vods, and my comp recently broke, but it's still great to see that there are players playing such a good game.
I think I cover a lot of basic stuff, but I also think there's so much neglect when it comes to simply basic stuff, that it, alone, can make all the difference in the world. If you can simply win the "information war," in-game and out-of-game, improving should be made much easier. When I say out-of-game information, to me it means just downloading a ton of replays and knowing the ranks of all the players you're watching; after you accumulate so many replays from various levels, you will begin to understand why players are certain ranks and know the "ingredients" to it. This makes it soooo much easier to go about reaching the next rank and so on. It takes some of the guess work out of it and the need to try to emulate a pro gamer in one giant leap.
In-game information.. think of StarCraft as chess.... if you're pieces are visible and your opponent's are invisible to you, who will win? How good of position will your pieces be in comparison to his? How likely are you to capitalize on your opportunities? You can see, by simply scouting your opponent frequently, you're really not even playing the same game.
You just have to be mindful of "am I utilizing every unit I have to its fullest?" Don't defend against imaginary threats when you can obtain the knowledge to know there's nothing to fear. Whoever has the most information is always able to make the most-informed decisions.
Both players go standard, you're saying "I'm going to try to win by having the better execution." If you go non standard, you obviously want to have crisp execution, but you're also aiming to take your opponent of his comfort zone. You want to play the same game you're accustomed to playing, while you're opponent feels like he is playing a different game, a reactionary one that puts him/her at least a few steps behind you. Just be aware of where the advantages lie and what your objectives must be.
Dear Playa.
Just read the "book". It is well written and more importantly pretty much nails it spot on why I was "stuck" in B on ICCup playing zerg with around 250 APM and almost always better mechanics than all the players I played against in this rank. Wish I had been made aware of this back when I played.
I have a question for you since you seem very well articulated and good at pinpointing issues etc.. How would you describe in a little more detail why SC2 is inferior (to me at least and seems also to you and many other BW palyers) to BW and what would you see as the main pitfalls that Blizzard did with SC2?
On January 08 2012 23:34 Sawamura wrote: I like the idea you raise up , for example if your opponent isn't doing something to kill you , he's cooking up some other drastic plan to make your life miserable .Again I want to thank you for this awesome guide . It's recommended that any newbie who wants to be better at broodwar , has to read playa's fight to the top guide .
Thanks. I haven't played a game since uploading the FP vods, and my comp recently broke, but it's still great to see that there are players playing such a good game.
I think I cover a lot of basic stuff, but I also think there's so much neglect when it comes to simply basic stuff, that it, alone, can make all the difference in the world. If you can simply win the "information war," in-game and out-of-game, improving should be made much easier. When I say out-of-game information, to me it means just downloading a ton of replays and knowing the ranks of all the players you're watching; after you accumulate so many replays from various levels, you will begin to understand why players are certain ranks and know the "ingredients" to it. This makes it soooo much easier to go about reaching the next rank and so on. It takes some of the guess work out of it and the need to try to emulate a pro gamer in one giant leap.
In-game information.. think of StarCraft as chess.... if you're pieces are visible and your opponent's are invisible to you, who will win? How good of position will your pieces be in comparison to his? How likely are you to capitalize on your opportunities? You can see, by simply scouting your opponent frequently, you're really not even playing the same game.
You just have to be mindful of "am I utilizing every unit I have to its fullest?" Don't defend against imaginary threats when you can obtain the knowledge to know there's nothing to fear. Whoever has the most information is always able to make the most-informed decisions.
Both players go standard, you're saying "I'm going to try to win by having the better execution." If you go non standard, you obviously want to have crisp execution, but you're also aiming to take your opponent of his comfort zone. You want to play the same game you're accustomed to playing, while you're opponent feels like he is playing a different game, a reactionary one that puts him/her at least a few steps behind you. Just be aware of where the advantages lie and what your objectives must be.
Dear Playa.
Just read the "book". It is well written and more importantly pretty much nails it spot on why I was "stuck" in B on ICCup playing zerg with around 250 APM and almost always better mechanics than all the players I played against in this rank. Wish I had been made aware of this back when I played.
I have a question for you since you seem very well articulated and good at pinpointing issues etc.. How would you describe in a little more detail why SC2 is inferior (to me at least and seems also to you and many other BW palyers) to BW and what would you see as the main pitfalls that Blizzard did with SC2?
Oh gawd, I'd love to refute the well articulated comment, but I'm drawing a blank on how to do so :p Well, I guess that was easy Thanks for your comments, though. Hopefully, one day, I'll share that sentiment about the aforementioned.
For me, it's kinda hard to pinpoint exactly why SC 2 has a sense of inferiority when it comes to the viewing experience. Intuitively, there's just a sense of something is awry. If you sense excitement over 1 game but don't experience the same feeling in another game, perhaps it's a good starting point to remember what exactly was occurring the last time that feeling was elicited.
Today, I watched a SSL game. It reminded me of a time when I played lamerfly when he was like 44-0 on PGT. At the time, it was drawing attention because no one was really doing anything comparable. Although he was way better, overall, there were powerful tactics that could be used to still end up with a tense and winnable game, given proper execution. I did a dt drop with either 1 or 2 dts. Due to being able to drop a DT near a mine and pick it up before the explosion would hurt it, you could literally end up doing unlimited damage, in theory -- if there was any area not covered by a turret and there were no gollies or wraiths to interfere with your shuttle micro.
So, when I watched the SSL game, I noticed the Toss player was too far behind in expo timing to win, unless he nailed his execution of the dt/shuttle micro. There's multiple units like that, that they can either end up arriving to your base and promptly dying, or they can end up decimating your base. As long as you know what's possible in theory, how can you look away? The way the game is designed makes it end up being more thrilling for a spectator, as the game can go in any direction.
BW to me is a game of many battles, where you work to cultivate an advantage. It's like a continuous storm that both players have to find a way to weather. In that storm, there are a few game changing units that can either end up rivaling an "F 1 tornado" or they can end up being an "F 5" and end up completely changing the tide of the game. There's this perfect blend that always keeps things interesting.
In SC 2, it can end up being a "1 round fight that happens to end in round 5." Someone says," I think my composition is better than yours. I'm ready to roll the dice." There's your climax. I hope you enjoyed the build up. Time to congratulate your eventual winner. You want to see fighting happening more frequently and on more fronts and less "wham bam. thank you, mam..."
In SC 2, with there being more units that hard counter others, it obviously makes it more about being on the right side of that and not making too many of any 1 unit and opening yourself up to the possibility of being hard countered. The question of "how can I be cost efficient versus "x" was a lot harder of a question to answer in BW. Eg., if you make a turret ring around your base to stop a reaver drop, and you didn't get your expo drastically before your opponent, it doesn't matter that you stopped it. It was always about stopping things, but "at what cost." I think questions like that led to a lot of evolution in game play and a more challenging game. So far, in SC 2, I've only really asked myself that kinda question when it comes to mutas in p vs z.
As it's impossible for me to be concise, which I would be if I were articulate I'll try to wrap this up. I think one of the biggest culprits in "boring SC 2" is the infestor. When you think of casters going crazy over someone fungaling a pack of marines, you realize something is wrong. Note: I have no problems facing infestors. I think they're ez pz in 99 out of 100 scenarios. But, when you think at pivotal game changing moments in SC 2, a lot of times a noob is at home and saying, put me in that spot and I could do the same freaking thing; it's hard for people to find things amazing or awe inducing when they are fully capable of doing the same.
When I see someone micro'ing a reaver at a ridiculous level, while macro'ing and telling workers to mine, I think who is this supernatural person. There is no confusion. I know I'm not watching one of my games. I'm watching a god damn pro gamer. It feels epic and so sick. When you think of stuff like auto mine and MBS in an isolated manner, you can tell yourself that's fine. And, maybe it is, but these small things end up adding up, and this culmination of things is something that's hard to not be mesmerized by unless you're a pro gamer.
How many watch pro sports? If I feel I can do what they're doing, I don't want to watch it. I'm going to be bitter that I'm not doing it. SC 2, along with less entertainment value, it just doesn't have that feel of seeing something that only a select few people are capable of, whether it's the case or not. It's like watching Pro gamers play a game on medium difficulty. There's this feeling like a pro gamer should be battling on the hardest setting and under the craziest conditions. That's what separates a pro from an average joe. At least, that's a feeling at times.
The caveat to all of this is, is that you really have to think about what's possible in theory and how compelling that is; Look back on BW at the first pro gamers. Most would say something like they are C- today and I don't know if I could watch that level of play... If your feelings are relative to what you know and the level of play simply isn't high at the moment, with no fault of that being to the game, then it's simply normal to not be that impressed, given the high level of play you're accustomed to seeing in BW.
Ultimately, something we might consider a pitfall won't be viewed in the same light for Blizzard. Their goal is to maximize making money. They saw Koreans own us like we were nothing in BW. If their alterations lead to a less entertaining game but they still find ways to maximize their earnings through it, then they have succeeded. It's all about perspective. And, whether I come off as doom and gloom or not, I am enjoying HotS; whether that's due to novelty or winning games, I dunno, but I'm content with playing HotS. Whether viewing WoL is great or not, as long as there is BW to view, at least I have (at least should) that choice. A lot of people want to have the successors become as good as BW, but they forget they already have BW.
If the worst case scenario for SC 2 is that it ends up being a better version of chess, then I could probably live with that. Anything where there are rarely ever ties, let alone 40% of games, is an improvement in my eyes. Not every game has to be the same or else it kinda defeats the purpose of being new. All I can say is that I prefer watching BW, but that could simply be a preference.
Edit: Creep spread in t vs z makes the mu almost unbearable for me to even try to watch. It seems to flirt with being map hack and strikes me as something that's pretty hard to balance. I also can't tolerate seeing dropships roaming around the map willy nilly. These two infuriate me more than anything. Maybe the zerg player should use corrupters as scourges, I dunno. I just can't handle watching it. The infestor, whether it's imbal or not, it seems to serve too many roles. I think HotS is fixing that, though.
On November 28 2012 23:21 sabas123 wrote: nice post lol, makes be kinda nostalgic to some old bw vs sc2 threads lol.
playa, do you think vods are yust a good of a tool as replay for learning purpose?
Starting out, I think replays are far more valuable, as you have the option to copy builds to a tee: it's obviously a lot easier to miss all of the nuances and end up doing something considerably different, if you're new'ish and are just going from a VOD. The better you get, the better you should be at "filling in the blanks," or at least already accustomed to trial and error.
Ideally, everything would be available in replay format, as not only is it hard to go wrong with a replay, but a lot of times when we watch a vod, we're watching it for entertainment, not so much taking notes.
For me, for the longest of time, I don't think anything compared to watching a replay. But, much later on, I still think watching a sea[shield] VOD had the biggest impact on my play. You're not going to find that as a replay, so a vod can still be very beneficial, and you simply don't always get a choice. VODS of pro games are obviously more readily available.
In t vs z, fighting against pro gamers muta micro was absurd. So many turrets to be made and so much stress over the positioning of everything. Also, knowing how deadly mutas can be in the hands of someone with insane micro, it made the spire plus hydra den build so annoying. You had to make some turrets to respect the possibility, and then they might just end up going pure lurker. Really obnoxious and you always give them an advantage from the get-go.
You take that seminal idea of not needing medics/stim/range or valkeries to defend against mutas, and you don't just want to say "I want to copy this to a tee," you want to find out just how far you can take it once one of your preconceived notions of what isn't possible has been shattered.
So, in short, it largely depends on where you're are at as a player to how much you can get out of a replay versus a vod. But, you can never go wrong with having the replay. I think day[9] said that Froz watched a first person vod of a pro gamer and then decided "I' can do that/I'm going to do that," and then just went out and started playing that fast. That must be nice, right? The more information you can take in, be it a replay or a vod, the better. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking everything you see is optimal, just because it's a pro game. I still can't get over for how long people were using 2 rax fast expo in BW. Once people see something enough, there's a tendency to just stop thinking about it and accept it as being how it's supposed to be. For that reason, building off ideas from vods or incorporating small things is more than sufficient, more times than not.
On January 08 2012 23:34 Sawamura wrote: I like the idea you raise up , for example if your opponent isn't doing something to kill you , he's cooking up some other drastic plan to make your life miserable .Again I want to thank you for this awesome guide . It's recommended that any newbie who wants to be better at broodwar , has to read playa's fight to the top guide .
Thanks. I haven't played a game since uploading the FP vods, and my comp recently broke, but it's still great to see that there are players playing such a good game.
I think I cover a lot of basic stuff, but I also think there's so much neglect when it comes to simply basic stuff, that it, alone, can make all the difference in the world. If you can simply win the "information war," in-game and out-of-game, improving should be made much easier. When I say out-of-game information, to me it means just downloading a ton of replays and knowing the ranks of all the players you're watching; after you accumulate so many replays from various levels, you will begin to understand why players are certain ranks and know the "ingredients" to it. This makes it soooo much easier to go about reaching the next rank and so on. It takes some of the guess work out of it and the need to try to emulate a pro gamer in one giant leap.
In-game information.. think of StarCraft as chess.... if you're pieces are visible and your opponent's are invisible to you, who will win? How good of position will your pieces be in comparison to his? How likely are you to capitalize on your opportunities? You can see, by simply scouting your opponent frequently, you're really not even playing the same game.
You just have to be mindful of "am I utilizing every unit I have to its fullest?" Don't defend against imaginary threats when you can obtain the knowledge to know there's nothing to fear. Whoever has the most information is always able to make the most-informed decisions.
Both players go standard, you're saying "I'm going to try to win by having the better execution." If you go non standard, you obviously want to have crisp execution, but you're also aiming to take your opponent of his comfort zone. You want to play the same game you're accustomed to playing, while you're opponent feels like he is playing a different game, a reactionary one that puts him/her at least a few steps behind you. Just be aware of where the advantages lie and what your objectives must be.
Dear Playa.
Just read the "book". It is well written and more importantly pretty much nails it spot on why I was "stuck" in B on ICCup playing zerg with around 250 APM and almost always better mechanics than all the players I played against in this rank. Wish I had been made aware of this back when I played.
I have a question for you since you seem very well articulated and good at pinpointing issues etc.. How would you describe in a little more detail why SC2 is inferior (to me at least and seems also to you and many other BW palyers) to BW and what would you see as the main pitfalls that Blizzard did with SC2?
Oh gawd, I'd love to refute the well articulated comment, but I'm drawing a blank on how to do so :p Well, I guess that was easy Thanks for your comments, though. Hopefully, one day, I'll share that sentiment about the aforementioned.
For me, it's kinda hard to pinpoint exactly why SC 2 has a sense of inferiority when it comes to the viewing experience. Intuitively, there's just a sense of something is awry. If you sense excitement over 1 game but don't experience the same feeling in another game, perhaps it's a good starting point to remember what exactly was occurring the last time that feeling was elicited.
Today, I watched a SSL game. It reminded me of a time when I played lamerfly when he was like 44-0 on PGT. At the time, it was drawing attention because no one was really doing anything comparable. Although he was way better, overall, there were powerful tactics that could be used to still end up with a tense and winnable game, given proper execution. I did a dt drop with either 1 or 2 dts. Due to being able to drop a DT near a mine and pick it up before the explosion would hurt it, you could literally end up doing unlimited damage, in theory -- if there was any area not covered by a turret and there were no gollies or wraiths to interfere with your shuttle micro.
So, when I watched the SSL game, I noticed the Toss player was too far behind in expo timing to win, unless he nailed his execution of the dt/shuttle micro. There's multiple units like that, that they can either end up arriving to your base and promptly dying, or they can end up decimating your base. As long as you know what's possible in theory, how can you look away? The way the game is designed makes it end up being more thrilling for a spectator, as the game can go in any direction.
BW to me is a game of many battles, where you work to cultivate an advantage. It's like a continuous storm that both players have to find a way to weather. In that storm, there are a few game changing units that can either end up rivaling an "F 1 tornado" or they can end up being an "F 5" and end up completely changing the tide of the game. There's this perfect blend that always keeps things interesting.
In SC 2, it can end up being a "1 round fight that happens to end in round 5." Someone says," I think my composition is better than yours. I'm ready to roll the dice." There's your climax. I hope you enjoyed the build up. Time to congratulate your eventual winner. You want to see fighting happening more frequently and on more fronts and less "wham bam. thank you, mam..."
In SC 2, with there being more units that hard counter others, it obviously makes it more about being on the right side of that and not making too many of any 1 unit and opening yourself up to the possibility of being hard countered. The question of "how can I be cost efficient versus "x" was a lot harder of a question to answer in BW. Eg., if you make a turret ring around your base to stop a reaver drop, and you didn't get your expo drastically before your opponent, it doesn't matter that you stopped it. It was always about stopping things, but "at what cost." I think questions like that led to a lot of evolution in game play and a more challenging game. So far, in SC 2, I've only really asked myself that kinda question when it comes to mutas in p vs z.
As it's impossible for me to be concise, which I would be if I were articulate I'll try to wrap this up. I think one of the biggest culprits in "boring SC 2" is the infestor. When you think of casters going crazy over someone fungaling a pack of marines, you realize something is wrong. Note: I have no problems facing infestors. I think they're ez pz in 99 out of 100 scenarios. But, when you think at pivotal game changing moments in SC 2, a lot of times a noob is at home and saying, put me in that spot and I could do the same freaking thing; it's hard for people to find things amazing or awe inducing when they are fully capable of doing the same.
When I see someone micro'ing a reaver at a ridiculous level, while macro'ing and telling workers to mine, I think who is this supernatural person. There is no confusion. I know I'm not watching one of my games. I'm watching a god damn pro gamer. It feels epic and so sick. When you think of stuff like auto mine and MBS in an isolated manner, you can tell yourself that's fine. And, maybe it is, but these small things end up adding up, and this culmination of things is something that's hard to not be mesmerized by unless you're a pro gamer.
How many watch pro sports? If I feel I can do what they're doing, I don't want to watch it. I'm going to be bitter that I'm not doing it. SC 2, along with less entertainment value, it just doesn't have that feel of seeing something that only a select few people are capable of, whether it's the case or not. It's like watching Pro gamers play a game on medium difficulty. There's this feeling like a pro gamer should be battling on the hardest setting and under the craziest conditions. That's what separates a pro from an average joe. At least, that's a feeling at times.
The caveat to all of this is, is that you really have to think about what's possible in theory and how compelling that is; Look back on BW at the first pro gamers. Most would say something like they are C- today and I don't know if I could watch that level of play... If your feelings are relative to what you know and the level of play simply isn't high at the moment, with no fault of that being to the game, then it's simply normal to not be that impressed, given the high level of play you're accustomed to seeing in BW.
Ultimately, something we might consider a pitfall won't be viewed in the same light for Blizzard. Their goal is to maximize making money. They saw Koreans own us like we were nothing in BW. If their alterations lead to a less entertaining game but they still find ways to maximize their earnings through it, then they have succeeded. It's all about perspective. And, whether I come off as doom and gloom or not, I am enjoying HotS; whether that's due to novelty or winning games, I dunno, but I'm content with playing HotS. Whether viewing WoL is great or not, as long as there is BW to view, at least I have (at least should) that choice. A lot of people want to have the successors become as good as BW, but they forget they already have BW.
If the worst case scenario for SC 2 is that it ends up being a better version of chess, then I could probably live with that. Anything where there are rarely ever ties, let alone 40% of games, is an improvement in my eyes. Not every game has to be the same or else it kinda defeats the purpose of being new. All I can say is that I prefer watching BW, but that could simply be a preference.
Edit: Creep spread in t vs z makes the mu almost unbearable for me to even try to watch. It seems to flirt with being map hack and strikes me as something that's pretty hard to balance. I also can't tolerate seeing dropships roaming around the map willy nilly. These two infuriate me more than anything. Maybe the zerg player should use corrupters as scourges, I dunno. I just can't handle watching it. The infestor, whether it's imbal or not, it seems to serve too many roles. I think HotS is fixing that, though.
it was completely random chance that brought me here but wow, that is really well-drawn picture of my thought process about sc2. i just had to sign in to say that^^
On November 28 2012 23:21 sabas123 wrote: nice post lol, makes be kinda nostalgic to some old bw vs sc2 threads lol.
playa, do you think vods are yust a good of a tool as replay for learning purpose?
Starting out, I think replays are far more valuable, as you have the option to copy builds to a tee: it's obviously a lot easier to miss all of the nuances and end up doing something considerably different, if you're new'ish and are just going from a VOD. The better you get, the better you should be at "filling in the blanks," or at least already accustomed to trial and error.
Ideally, everything would be available in replay format, as not only is it hard to go wrong with a replay, but a lot of times when we watch a vod, we're watching it for entertainment, not so much taking notes.
For me, for the longest of time, I don't think anything compared to watching a replay. But, much later on, I still think watching a sea[shield] VOD had the biggest impact on my play. You're not going to find that as a replay, so a vod can still be very beneficial, and you simply don't always get a choice. VODS of pro games are obviously more readily available.
In t vs z, fighting against pro gamers muta micro was absurd. So many turrets to be made and so much stress over the positioning of everything. Also, knowing how deadly mutas can be in the hands of someone with insane micro, it made the spire plus hydra den build so annoying. You had to make some turrets to respect the possibility, and then they might just end up going pure lurker. Really obnoxious and you always give them an advantage from the get-go.
You take that seminal idea of not needing medics/stim/range or valkeries to defend against mutas, and you don't just want to say "I want to copy this to a tee," you want to find out just how far you can take it once one of your preconceived notions of what isn't possible has been shattered.
So, in short, it largely depends on where you're are at as a player to how much you can get out of a replay versus a vod. But, you can never go wrong with having the replay. I think day[9] said that Froz watched a first person vod of a pro gamer and then decided "I' can do that/I'm going to do that," and then just went out and started playing that fast. That must be nice, right? The more information you can take in, be it a replay or a vod, the better. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking everything you see is optimal, just because it's a pro game. I still can't get over for how long people were using 2 rax fast expo in BW. Once people see something enough, there's a tendency to just stop thinking about it and accept it as being how it's supposed to be. For that reason, building off ideas from vods or incorporating small things is more than sufficient, more times than not.
i find it so easy to learn the general outline of a mu yust by watching vods, A: becouse the amount of S class players vods (tbls) is yust so high and easy to find, also becouse its so easy to go through a bunch of them realy quickly. and ofc with the potantial of skiping large chunks and rewinding.
but isn't it much more easier to learn these little things through replays??? assuming your good enough to find them on your own and doesn't need to hope the observer going to take a shot of it^^
and about that froz thing, i can totaly relate to it lol, it helps so much to DETERMINE your goal and KNOW you gonna be that good or than fast or what ever.
realy cool to see that you still give tips to people, do you still play. ifso whats your rank.
On November 28 2012 23:21 sabas123 wrote: nice post lol, makes be kinda nostalgic to some old bw vs sc2 threads lol.
playa, do you think vods are yust a good of a tool as replay for learning purpose?
Starting out, I think replays are far more valuable, as you have the option to copy builds to a tee: it's obviously a lot easier to miss all of the nuances and end up doing something considerably different, if you're new'ish and are just going from a VOD. The better you get, the better you should be at "filling in the blanks," or at least already accustomed to trial and error.
Ideally, everything would be available in replay format, as not only is it hard to go wrong with a replay, but a lot of times when we watch a vod, we're watching it for entertainment, not so much taking notes.
For me, for the longest of time, I don't think anything compared to watching a replay. But, much later on, I still think watching a sea[shield] VOD had the biggest impact on my play. You're not going to find that as a replay, so a vod can still be very beneficial, and you simply don't always get a choice. VODS of pro games are obviously more readily available.
In t vs z, fighting against pro gamers muta micro was absurd. So many turrets to be made and so much stress over the positioning of everything. Also, knowing how deadly mutas can be in the hands of someone with insane micro, it made the spire plus hydra den build so annoying. You had to make some turrets to respect the possibility, and then they might just end up going pure lurker. Really obnoxious and you always give them an advantage from the get-go.
You take that seminal idea of not needing medics/stim/range or valkeries to defend against mutas, and you don't just want to say "I want to copy this to a tee," you want to find out just how far you can take it once one of your preconceived notions of what isn't possible has been shattered.
So, in short, it largely depends on where you're are at as a player to how much you can get out of a replay versus a vod. But, you can never go wrong with having the replay. I think day[9] said that Froz watched a first person vod of a pro gamer and then decided "I' can do that/I'm going to do that," and then just went out and started playing that fast. That must be nice, right? The more information you can take in, be it a replay or a vod, the better. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking everything you see is optimal, just because it's a pro game. I still can't get over for how long people were using 2 rax fast expo in BW. Once people see something enough, there's a tendency to just stop thinking about it and accept it as being how it's supposed to be. For that reason, building off ideas from vods or incorporating small things is more than sufficient, more times than not.
i find it so easy to learn the general outline of a mu yust by watching vods, A: becouse the amount of S class players vods (tbls) is yust so high and easy to find, also becouse its so easy to go through a bunch of them realy quickly. and ofc with the potantial of skiping large chunks and rewinding.
but isn't it much more easier to learn these little things through replays??? assuming your good enough to find them on your own and doesn't need to hope the observer going to take a shot of it^^
and about that froz thing, i can totaly relate to it lol, it helps so much to DETERMINE your goal and KNOW you gonna be that good or than fast or what ever.
realy cool to see that you still give tips to people, do you still play. ifso whats your rank.
100% correct. In SC 2, VODS are probably a lot more beneficial than in BW, because they are in English. In BW, I always muted the English ones that weren't casted by Tastosis.
Anytime you're trying to emulate a pro style and a recent replay from a top pro gamer is released/leaked, your head should explode just a little bit. I don't want to say it's the holy grail or anything, but it's kinda a big deal
For my first year playing or w/e, I wouldn't be surprised if I watched more replays than anyone. Whether they were 1 rank above me or w/e, I always found them helpful. I would check some Korean replay site every day. Like there would always be a few replays from a Korean ladder. I remember always awaiting more t vs z replays. It made 0 sense, though, because there were never any deviations that I remember Well, at least I made sure I didn't miss any changes in the metagame.
I haven't played a BW game in a long time. I stopped playing games all together for a while. I started playing SC 2 a couple months ago. Currently playing HotS; rank 2 in masters atm. I'm pretty sure my win rate versus GM is my highest win rate versus any league. It's very, very peculiar. I've found SC 2 to be weird in that the affect of the league doesn't really seem to mean much. Ie., if you're weak or strong against a particular strategy, that's the biggest factor in whether you will win or not. Obviously, as long as the ranks are within reason. Bronze going to be bronze. That element seems a lot more accentuated than anything I remember in BW, outside of the proxy BBS build.
Hey playa, nice read. I think I recognize your name from the first TSL, you laddered quite well there if I'm not mistaken
On November 25 2012 11:24 playa wrote: :o I was hoping this thread was dead and would remain so! Due to megaupload going down and my prior computer having "died," I haven't had the book myself. Ultimately, anytime someone does something, a judgement is rendered. Anytime your anxiety is increased, you'd like to think there's something to either help offset it or make it worthwhile.
I feel sheepish and treasonous or something I honestly never planned on playing SC 2. I unexpectedly found myself with a week off, and I really wanted to get a game. I really wanted to get a hockey game, as I just think it's the best sport and love the hockey video games. But, eventually, I was like "I can't rationalize getting a PS 3 just so I can get 1 game, with no intentions of getting anything else." Thus, I settled on trying out SC 2.
I can't stress how big of a thing it is to see a lot of tournaments in SC 2 that accommodate players, who qualify for their events, with flights to their events. In WCG this year, in SC 2, you saw people winning their national WCG finals and then turning down going to the World Finals. Personally, if I had any aspirations of being competitive, I would probably choose w/e game that gave me less reservations about choosing to advance on after winning/qualifying.
I'm currently playing HotS and I find it fun/interesting/new challenge, but be it SC 2 or HotS, I pretty much find every mu but p vs p (more times than not) to be trash, or at least far inferior to watch to their BW "counterparts." It's really sad almost to think how much worse of an experience it is to view SC matches now. And to couple that with SC 2 basically replacing the BW show, it feels wrong to some extent.
To me it just seems like it should perhaps be some kinda egregious offense anytime an inferior product ends up completely supplanting a superior product, that the current product can only hope of becoming. Ultimately, there's a sense of that's not how the world should ever work; that's simply our world revolving around money and Blizzard being out of ideas on how to create more money inflow from BW.
Anytime incentive is lost to cater to people that are simply playing the superior game, then you do have to worry about the inevitable "death" of that game. I frankly enjoy playing SC 2 and welcome the change of pace/differences, but you'd hate to think you're contributing to the death of something that is "objectively" better. At the bare minimum, they should co exist. The superior product should never fade into oblivion, even if the successor has promise of blossoming into a really amazing game. If BW fades away, it should only be after a successor has proven to be a better game; not simply a game with the most potential for money to be had.
Anyways, all I'm really trying to say is that I really enjoy seeing that there are still people playing BW and/or care about the game. 40k people with no ambitions of being a pro gamer could watch a 30 minute turtle fest, with broodlord, infestor, or they could watch a real game, with entertainment value, granted there was still a BW scene to watch. Why are we subjecting ourselves to watch something that is clearly not as good? I don't know the answers. I just know I have a lot of respect for people that say, "I like this. I know there is more value here. You're not going to get me to accept less value for no reason without substance."
It's great to see and hopefully BW can have a resurgence of some kind, even though it probably will take outside forces (not Blizzard).
This is so true. I honestly just feel the same way but I don't have the ability to put it in words like you do. BW really doesn't deserve to vanish one day.
On November 28 2012 23:21 sabas123 wrote: nice post lol, makes be kinda nostalgic to some old bw vs sc2 threads lol.
playa, do you think vods are yust a good of a tool as replay for learning purpose?
Starting out, I think replays are far more valuable, as you have the option to copy builds to a tee: it's obviously a lot easier to miss all of the nuances and end up doing something considerably different, if you're new'ish and are just going from a VOD. The better you get, the better you should be at "filling in the blanks," or at least already accustomed to trial and error.
Ideally, everything would be available in replay format, as not only is it hard to go wrong with a replay, but a lot of times when we watch a vod, we're watching it for entertainment, not so much taking notes.
For me, for the longest of time, I don't think anything compared to watching a replay. But, much later on, I still think watching a sea[shield] VOD had the biggest impact on my play. You're not going to find that as a replay, so a vod can still be very beneficial, and you simply don't always get a choice. VODS of pro games are obviously more readily available.
In t vs z, fighting against pro gamers muta micro was absurd. So many turrets to be made and so much stress over the positioning of everything. Also, knowing how deadly mutas can be in the hands of someone with insane micro, it made the spire plus hydra den build so annoying. You had to make some turrets to respect the possibility, and then they might just end up going pure lurker. Really obnoxious and you always give them an advantage from the get-go.
You take that seminal idea of not needing medics/stim/range or valkeries to defend against mutas, and you don't just want to say "I want to copy this to a tee," you want to find out just how far you can take it once one of your preconceived notions of what isn't possible has been shattered.
So, in short, it largely depends on where you're are at as a player to how much you can get out of a replay versus a vod. But, you can never go wrong with having the replay. I think day[9] said that Froz watched a first person vod of a pro gamer and then decided "I' can do that/I'm going to do that," and then just went out and started playing that fast. That must be nice, right? The more information you can take in, be it a replay or a vod, the better. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking everything you see is optimal, just because it's a pro game. I still can't get over for how long people were using 2 rax fast expo in BW. Once people see something enough, there's a tendency to just stop thinking about it and accept it as being how it's supposed to be. For that reason, building off ideas from vods or incorporating small things is more than sufficient, more times than not.
i find it so easy to learn the general outline of a mu yust by watching vods, A: becouse the amount of S class players vods (tbls) is yust so high and easy to find, also becouse its so easy to go through a bunch of them realy quickly. and ofc with the potantial of skiping large chunks and rewinding.
but isn't it much more easier to learn these little things through replays??? assuming your good enough to find them on your own and doesn't need to hope the observer going to take a shot of it^^
and about that froz thing, i can totaly relate to it lol, it helps so much to DETERMINE your goal and KNOW you gonna be that good or than fast or what ever.
realy cool to see that you still give tips to people, do you still play. ifso whats your rank.
100% correct. In SC 2, VODS are probably a lot more beneficial than in BW, because they are in English. In BW, I always muted the English ones that weren't casted by Tastosis.
Anytime you're trying to emulate a pro style and a recent replay from a top pro gamer is released/leaked, your head should explode just a little bit. I don't want to say it's the holy grail or anything, but it's kinda a big deal
For my first year playing or w/e, I wouldn't be surprised if I watched more replays than anyone. Whether they were 1 rank above me or w/e, I always found them helpful. I would check some Korean replay site every day. Like there would always be a few replays from a Korean ladder. I remember always awaiting more t vs z replays. It made 0 sense, though, because there were never any deviations that I remember Well, at least I made sure I didn't miss any changes in the metagame.
I haven't played a BW game in a long time. I stopped playing games all together for a while. I started playing SC 2 a couple months ago. Currently playing HotS; rank 2 in masters atm. I'm pretty sure my win rate versus GM is my highest win rate versus any league. It's very, very peculiar. I've found SC 2 to be weird in that the affect of the league doesn't really seem to mean much. Ie., if you're weak or strong against a particular strategy, that's the biggest factor in whether you will win or not. Obviously, as long as the ranks are within reason. Bronze going to be bronze. That element seems a lot more accentuated than anything I remember in BW, outside of the proxy BBS build.
does it realy matter if there is commentary? i know that it really really helps if a good player talks (tastosis) but its still good to learn from no matter who speaks it.
On November 28 2012 23:21 sabas123 wrote: nice post lol, makes be kinda nostalgic to some old bw vs sc2 threads lol.
playa, do you think vods are yust a good of a tool as replay for learning purpose?
Starting out, I think replays are far more valuable, as you have the option to copy builds to a tee: it's obviously a lot easier to miss all of the nuances and end up doing something considerably different, if you're new'ish and are just going from a VOD. The better you get, the better you should be at "filling in the blanks," or at least already accustomed to trial and error.
Ideally, everything would be available in replay format, as not only is it hard to go wrong with a replay, but a lot of times when we watch a vod, we're watching it for entertainment, not so much taking notes.
For me, for the longest of time, I don't think anything compared to watching a replay. But, much later on, I still think watching a sea[shield] VOD had the biggest impact on my play. You're not going to find that as a replay, so a vod can still be very beneficial, and you simply don't always get a choice. VODS of pro games are obviously more readily available.
In t vs z, fighting against pro gamers muta micro was absurd. So many turrets to be made and so much stress over the positioning of everything. Also, knowing how deadly mutas can be in the hands of someone with insane micro, it made the spire plus hydra den build so annoying. You had to make some turrets to respect the possibility, and then they might just end up going pure lurker. Really obnoxious and you always give them an advantage from the get-go.
You take that seminal idea of not needing medics/stim/range or valkeries to defend against mutas, and you don't just want to say "I want to copy this to a tee," you want to find out just how far you can take it once one of your preconceived notions of what isn't possible has been shattered.
So, in short, it largely depends on where you're are at as a player to how much you can get out of a replay versus a vod. But, you can never go wrong with having the replay. I think day[9] said that Froz watched a first person vod of a pro gamer and then decided "I' can do that/I'm going to do that," and then just went out and started playing that fast. That must be nice, right? The more information you can take in, be it a replay or a vod, the better. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking everything you see is optimal, just because it's a pro game. I still can't get over for how long people were using 2 rax fast expo in BW. Once people see something enough, there's a tendency to just stop thinking about it and accept it as being how it's supposed to be. For that reason, building off ideas from vods or incorporating small things is more than sufficient, more times than not.
i find it so easy to learn the general outline of a mu yust by watching vods, A: becouse the amount of S class players vods (tbls) is yust so high and easy to find, also becouse its so easy to go through a bunch of them realy quickly. and ofc with the potantial of skiping large chunks and rewinding.
but isn't it much more easier to learn these little things through replays??? assuming your good enough to find them on your own and doesn't need to hope the observer going to take a shot of it^^
and about that froz thing, i can totaly relate to it lol, it helps so much to DETERMINE your goal and KNOW you gonna be that good or than fast or what ever.
realy cool to see that you still give tips to people, do you still play. ifso whats your rank.
100% correct. In SC 2, VODS are probably a lot more beneficial than in BW, because they are in English. In BW, I always muted the English ones that weren't casted by Tastosis.
Anytime you're trying to emulate a pro style and a recent replay from a top pro gamer is released/leaked, your head should explode just a little bit. I don't want to say it's the holy grail or anything, but it's kinda a big deal
For my first year playing or w/e, I wouldn't be surprised if I watched more replays than anyone. Whether they were 1 rank above me or w/e, I always found them helpful. I would check some Korean replay site every day. Like there would always be a few replays from a Korean ladder. I remember always awaiting more t vs z replays. It made 0 sense, though, because there were never any deviations that I remember Well, at least I made sure I didn't miss any changes in the metagame.
I haven't played a BW game in a long time. I stopped playing games all together for a while. I started playing SC 2 a couple months ago. Currently playing HotS; rank 2 in masters atm. I'm pretty sure my win rate versus GM is my highest win rate versus any league. It's very, very peculiar. I've found SC 2 to be weird in that the affect of the league doesn't really seem to mean much. Ie., if you're weak or strong against a particular strategy, that's the biggest factor in whether you will win or not. Obviously, as long as the ranks are within reason. Bronze going to be bronze. That element seems a lot more accentuated than anything I remember in BW, outside of the proxy BBS build.
does it realy matter if there is commentary? i know that it really really helps if a good player talks (tastosis) but its still good to learn from no matter who speaks it.
I wish I were a mod so I could ban/warn you. You know why? Because I disagree with you. You're lucky I'm not a mod and that this isn't a SC 2 thread. You don't know anything about serious business.
Perhaps I'm biased in that I never really heard English casting until I wasn't a "noob." The majority of the casters kinda struck me as people that you would find in the D channel, granted they hadn't given up playing yet. I think it was more of simply a play-by-play kinda thing, which is fine, but some of them had voices that were just so distracting to me... After I stopped playing BW, I heard Sayle cast some, and I was super shocked, as I enjoyed his casting. So, as with most things, it depends. I honestly think, more times than not, you would be better off listening to Koreans screaming: having a chance to have some of that passion being instilled in you surpasses the chance of having the English casters' knowledge imparted in you. I love those guys.
Obvious choice is obvious.
Blog mode enabled because I can't follow guidelines if I can't be bothered to read them. I'm rank 1 masters in HotS and should be a win or two in a row from getting promoted to GM (3 open spots atm and the last person I saw got into GM was in that point range). I hope everyone keeps playing WoL, so I can preface everything by saying "Just so you know, I'm GM." I surmise you could say w/e, trolling or not, after that, and the plat mods would have to go "well he said he was GM... I have to consider the merits even though that explanation is the worst I've ever seen." One day, perhaps in a dream, I'll get that license to post in a SC 2 thread, where business is always serious. I'm pretty sure I'll be banned first, though.
I was trapped/set up. How can a help thread versus mutalisks in p vs z (SC 2) be allowed. I'm telling you, every time I watch a stream (usually a featured player who is GM), they are getting obliterated by mutalisk strategies. They go pure stalkers, auto loss. They go ht, the zerg player happens to have a mouse that is still functioning... I guess the correct answer to a help thread of that sort is supposed to be, it's imbalanced and you're doomed. Or you're supposed to say "do this, the thing that you watch lose 24/7. It might not ever work in practice, but god damn it worked in a theory session." Give me a break.
W/e happened to being able to say "I don't know why it works... I'm not a scientist. I just noticed it tends to work." Let me try to be a scientist so you can get some bonus strategy for another game. Why does a composition of 2 void rays, 1-2 archons and stalkers do decently against mutas? I'm going to go out on a limb and say, because if the mutas get close enough to try to snipe your void rays, your archon(s) gets pot shots. Conversely, if the mutas target other units, then the void rays end up being charged and doing considerably more damage. Plus, if you have void rays, you basically end up with something that serves as mobile cannons, saving you from actually having to build more than 1 cannon at any location until you have your third up and running. Thus, you don't end up falling behind economically and not even being able to base race if you need to because your army is inferior and couldn't even win a straight up fight.
Bill Nye the science guy strikes again. Great advice. Don't let anyone tell you differently. And if they do, let them know that I've casted a game. I haven't, but mods probably have. And that's why you listen to Koreans screaming. Where do the jokes end and the for realz begin is anyone's guess.
On November 28 2012 23:21 sabas123 wrote: nice post lol, makes be kinda nostalgic to some old bw vs sc2 threads lol.
playa, do you think vods are yust a good of a tool as replay for learning purpose?
Starting out, I think replays are far more valuable, as you have the option to copy builds to a tee: it's obviously a lot easier to miss all of the nuances and end up doing something considerably different, if you're new'ish and are just going from a VOD. The better you get, the better you should be at "filling in the blanks," or at least already accustomed to trial and error.
Ideally, everything would be available in replay format, as not only is it hard to go wrong with a replay, but a lot of times when we watch a vod, we're watching it for entertainment, not so much taking notes.
For me, for the longest of time, I don't think anything compared to watching a replay. But, much later on, I still think watching a sea[shield] VOD had the biggest impact on my play. You're not going to find that as a replay, so a vod can still be very beneficial, and you simply don't always get a choice. VODS of pro games are obviously more readily available.
In t vs z, fighting against pro gamers muta micro was absurd. So many turrets to be made and so much stress over the positioning of everything. Also, knowing how deadly mutas can be in the hands of someone with insane micro, it made the spire plus hydra den build so annoying. You had to make some turrets to respect the possibility, and then they might just end up going pure lurker. Really obnoxious and you always give them an advantage from the get-go.
You take that seminal idea of not needing medics/stim/range or valkeries to defend against mutas, and you don't just want to say "I want to copy this to a tee," you want to find out just how far you can take it once one of your preconceived notions of what isn't possible has been shattered.
So, in short, it largely depends on where you're are at as a player to how much you can get out of a replay versus a vod. But, you can never go wrong with having the replay. I think day[9] said that Froz watched a first person vod of a pro gamer and then decided "I' can do that/I'm going to do that," and then just went out and started playing that fast. That must be nice, right? The more information you can take in, be it a replay or a vod, the better. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking everything you see is optimal, just because it's a pro game. I still can't get over for how long people were using 2 rax fast expo in BW. Once people see something enough, there's a tendency to just stop thinking about it and accept it as being how it's supposed to be. For that reason, building off ideas from vods or incorporating small things is more than sufficient, more times than not.
i find it so easy to learn the general outline of a mu yust by watching vods, A: becouse the amount of S class players vods (tbls) is yust so high and easy to find, also becouse its so easy to go through a bunch of them realy quickly. and ofc with the potantial of skiping large chunks and rewinding.
but isn't it much more easier to learn these little things through replays??? assuming your good enough to find them on your own and doesn't need to hope the observer going to take a shot of it^^
and about that froz thing, i can totaly relate to it lol, it helps so much to DETERMINE your goal and KNOW you gonna be that good or than fast or what ever.
realy cool to see that you still give tips to people, do you still play. ifso whats your rank.
100% correct. In SC 2, VODS are probably a lot more beneficial than in BW, because they are in English. In BW, I always muted the English ones that weren't casted by Tastosis.
Anytime you're trying to emulate a pro style and a recent replay from a top pro gamer is released/leaked, your head should explode just a little bit. I don't want to say it's the holy grail or anything, but it's kinda a big deal
For my first year playing or w/e, I wouldn't be surprised if I watched more replays than anyone. Whether they were 1 rank above me or w/e, I always found them helpful. I would check some Korean replay site every day. Like there would always be a few replays from a Korean ladder. I remember always awaiting more t vs z replays. It made 0 sense, though, because there were never any deviations that I remember Well, at least I made sure I didn't miss any changes in the metagame.
I haven't played a BW game in a long time. I stopped playing games all together for a while. I started playing SC 2 a couple months ago. Currently playing HotS; rank 2 in masters atm. I'm pretty sure my win rate versus GM is my highest win rate versus any league. It's very, very peculiar. I've found SC 2 to be weird in that the affect of the league doesn't really seem to mean much. Ie., if you're weak or strong against a particular strategy, that's the biggest factor in whether you will win or not. Obviously, as long as the ranks are within reason. Bronze going to be bronze. That element seems a lot more accentuated than anything I remember in BW, outside of the proxy BBS build.
does it realy matter if there is commentary? i know that it really really helps if a good player talks (tastosis) but its still good to learn from no matter who speaks it.
I wish I were a mod so I could ban/warn you. You know why? Because I disagree with you. You're lucky I'm not a mod and that this isn't a SC 2 thread. You don't know anything about serious business.
Perhaps I'm biased in that I never really heard English casting until I wasn't a "noob." The majority of the casters kinda struck me as people that you would find in the D channel, granted they hadn't given up playing yet. I think it was more of simply a play-by-play kinda thing, which is fine, but some of them had voices that were just so distracting to me... After I stopped playing BW, I heard Sayle cast some, and I was super shocked, as I enjoyed his casting. So, as with most things, it depends. I honestly think, more times than not, you would be better off listening to Koreans screaming: having a chance to have some of that passion being instilled in you surpasses the chance of having the English casters' knowledge imparted in you. I love those guys.
Blog mode enabled because I can't follow guidelines if I can't be bothered to read them. I'm rank 1 masters in HotS and should be a win or two in a row from getting promoted to GM (3 open spots atm and the last person I saw got into GM was in that point range). I hope everyone keeps playing WoL, so I can preface everything by saying "Just so you know, I'm GM." I surmise you could say w/e, trolling or not, after that, and the plat mods would have to go "well he said he was GM... I have to consider the merits even though that explanation is the worst I've ever seen." One day, perhaps in a dream, I'll get that license to post in a SC 2 thread, where business is always serious. I'm pretty sure I'll be banned first, though.
I was trapped/set up. How can a help thread versus mutalisks in p vs z (SC 2) be allowed. I'm telling you, every time I watch a stream (usually a featured player who is GM), they are getting obliterated by mutalisk strategies. They go pure stalkers, auto loss. They go ht, the zerg player happens to have a mouse that is still functioning... I guess the correct answer to a help thread of that sort is supposed to be, it's imbalanced and you're doomed. Or you're supposed to say "do this, the thing that you watch lose 24/7. It might not ever work in practice, but god damn it worked in a theory session." Give me a break.
W/e happened to being able to say "I don't know why it works... I'm not a scientist. I just noticed it tends to work." Let me try to be a scientist so you can get some bonus strategy for another game. Why does a composition of 2 void rays, 1-2 archons and stalkers do decently against mutas? I'm going to go out on a limb and say, because if the mutas get close enough to try to snipe your void rays, your archon(s) gets pot shots. Conversely, if the mutas target other units, then the void rays end up being charged and doing considerably more damage. Plus, if you have void rays, you basically end up with something that serves as mobile cannons, saving you from actually having to build more than 1 cannon at any location until you have your third up and running. Thus, you don't end up falling behind economically and not even being able to base race if you need to because your army is inferior and couldn't even win a straight up fight.
Bill Nye the science guy strikes again. Great advice. Don't let anyone tell you differently. And if they do, let them know that I've casted a game. I haven't, but mods probably have. And that's why you listen to Koreans screaming. Where do the jokes end and the for realz begin is anyone's guess.
it's yust that i almost never listen to cast for more game knowlageXD, if there good (like day9) i am listen verry closly but otherwise i don't realy care for the learning purposes.
On November 28 2012 23:21 sabas123 wrote: nice post lol, makes be kinda nostalgic to some old bw vs sc2 threads lol.
playa, do you think vods are yust a good of a tool as replay for learning purpose?
Starting out, I think replays are far more valuable, as you have the option to copy builds to a tee: it's obviously a lot easier to miss all of the nuances and end up doing something considerably different, if you're new'ish and are just going from a VOD. The better you get, the better you should be at "filling in the blanks," or at least already accustomed to trial and error.
Ideally, everything would be available in replay format, as not only is it hard to go wrong with a replay, but a lot of times when we watch a vod, we're watching it for entertainment, not so much taking notes.
For me, for the longest of time, I don't think anything compared to watching a replay. But, much later on, I still think watching a sea[shield] VOD had the biggest impact on my play. You're not going to find that as a replay, so a vod can still be very beneficial, and you simply don't always get a choice. VODS of pro games are obviously more readily available.
In t vs z, fighting against pro gamers muta micro was absurd. So many turrets to be made and so much stress over the positioning of everything. Also, knowing how deadly mutas can be in the hands of someone with insane micro, it made the spire plus hydra den build so annoying. You had to make some turrets to respect the possibility, and then they might just end up going pure lurker. Really obnoxious and you always give them an advantage from the get-go.
You take that seminal idea of not needing medics/stim/range or valkeries to defend against mutas, and you don't just want to say "I want to copy this to a tee," you want to find out just how far you can take it once one of your preconceived notions of what isn't possible has been shattered.
So, in short, it largely depends on where you're are at as a player to how much you can get out of a replay versus a vod. But, you can never go wrong with having the replay. I think day[9] said that Froz watched a first person vod of a pro gamer and then decided "I' can do that/I'm going to do that," and then just went out and started playing that fast. That must be nice, right? The more information you can take in, be it a replay or a vod, the better. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking everything you see is optimal, just because it's a pro game. I still can't get over for how long people were using 2 rax fast expo in BW. Once people see something enough, there's a tendency to just stop thinking about it and accept it as being how it's supposed to be. For that reason, building off ideas from vods or incorporating small things is more than sufficient, more times than not.
i find it so easy to learn the general outline of a mu yust by watching vods, A: becouse the amount of S class players vods (tbls) is yust so high and easy to find, also becouse its so easy to go through a bunch of them realy quickly. and ofc with the potantial of skiping large chunks and rewinding.
but isn't it much more easier to learn these little things through replays??? assuming your good enough to find them on your own and doesn't need to hope the observer going to take a shot of it^^
and about that froz thing, i can totaly relate to it lol, it helps so much to DETERMINE your goal and KNOW you gonna be that good or than fast or what ever.
realy cool to see that you still give tips to people, do you still play. ifso whats your rank.
100% correct. In SC 2, VODS are probably a lot more beneficial than in BW, because they are in English. In BW, I always muted the English ones that weren't casted by Tastosis.
Anytime you're trying to emulate a pro style and a recent replay from a top pro gamer is released/leaked, your head should explode just a little bit. I don't want to say it's the holy grail or anything, but it's kinda a big deal
For my first year playing or w/e, I wouldn't be surprised if I watched more replays than anyone. Whether they were 1 rank above me or w/e, I always found them helpful. I would check some Korean replay site every day. Like there would always be a few replays from a Korean ladder. I remember always awaiting more t vs z replays. It made 0 sense, though, because there were never any deviations that I remember Well, at least I made sure I didn't miss any changes in the metagame.
I haven't played a BW game in a long time. I stopped playing games all together for a while. I started playing SC 2 a couple months ago. Currently playing HotS; rank 2 in masters atm. I'm pretty sure my win rate versus GM is my highest win rate versus any league. It's very, very peculiar. I've found SC 2 to be weird in that the affect of the league doesn't really seem to mean much. Ie., if you're weak or strong against a particular strategy, that's the biggest factor in whether you will win or not. Obviously, as long as the ranks are within reason. Bronze going to be bronze. That element seems a lot more accentuated than anything I remember in BW, outside of the proxy BBS build.
does it realy matter if there is commentary? i know that it really really helps if a good player talks (tastosis) but its still good to learn from no matter who speaks it.
W/e happened to being able to say "I don't know why it works... I'm not a scientist. I just noticed it tends to work." Let me try to be a scientist so you can get some bonus strategy for another game. Why does a composition of 2 void rays, 1-2 archons and stalkers do decently against mutas?
In what context? If it's just against mutas, the charge-up damage on two void rays shouldn't matter much; it's only an increase from 6 to 8, on two units, and in a harassment scenario you'll lose your charge quickly anyway. I think the utility of the void rays comes from different sources; flight + range allows them to ward off mutas without getting hung up on cliff edges or buildings, and without obstructing your archons. Void Rays let you see over cliffs, if you don't already have vision. Void Rays mean you have a Stargate, so Zerg has to be more wary of Phoenixes. And Void Rays are probably holdovers from earlier in your build, that you got some sort of mileage out of.
Of course, if Protoss is attacking, Void Rays are great against spines...
Desperate people do sensible things. At least I do. Everyone that downloaded my book owes me retroactively. If the government can do it, sure, why not me? While I'm joking, the book now "costs" $4.99. Sure, you can download it for free still, BUT you could in essence donate 4.99 and set yourself up for some amazing coaching. I'm not one to use words lightly, so when I say amazing... it's an understatement. No one is going to DL it anyways. I'm just covering all avenues before I probably quit. I might come back to play in a WCS if they're letting everyone and their grandmother qualify, again. I'm not holding my breath.
When I was playing HotS, I was starting to get delusional. I was finishing GM every season and beating pros, so I thought at times, "maybe I could be one." Nope. Dumb thought. It was silly of me, despite picking up SC months prior. It's just too hard atm. If you focus on strictly trying to improve, you're not going to be marketable enough. If you focus strictly on marketing, you're foundation is bs. Then again, I guess Brad Pitt used to stand around in a chicken suit, advertising for a restaurant (saw it as a tidbit before a movie started), and is from my city. Who knows what mascoting can lead to. For some reason, not the most intriguing idea.
It's decision time. To be a pro in today's age, you have to stream. My computer just isn't quite good enough. So, if I play HotS and want to try to be a pro, I'd also have to get a new computer just to stream? It's just not realistic. Sooner or later you have to get something back from what you put in to justify continuing. What good would top 30 GM be or w/e if it doesn't lead to anything, and it's out of your control? There seems to be a lot more reasons against playing than for it.
I recently created a journal site, aka messaging me on facebook. It's pretty amazing, too (note I don't use words lightly). Despite being curious as to how weird and riveting others lives are, if you donate, you can feel free to ask me anything SC related in the future, granted I still play. Reps, advice, etc. I would say only for HotS, as it's the best game ever and the game I'd be playing, but this is in the BW section and who doesn't like getting nostalgic from time to time. I'm very open to also playing enough BW to be able to help out, granted they might have to be pretty D rank.
I want to thank skzlime for his message. Thanks (some might just say thank you, but they're prob weird). I knew your name was familiar, but I'd been out of the scene for too long I guess. It's nice to hear that from a gosu like yourself. You got yourself a fan.
And for the poster above me, you just earned yourself an anti-fan. It was a few months ago, but I just saw it. I'm just messing. I think you're right about a lot, and if I think you're wrong on any points, who the fuck am I? That's right, you're the man. It's just one of those things, where if I made void rays and I had that composition before being hit by mutas (no fastest 2 base muta rush ever), I usually found a way to win. That said, everything is relative, and I hated playing against mutas more than any other possibility.
For me that configuration bought me time. I didn't need cannons, and they had to get a considerable amount of mutas before they could even try to engage me, and by that time, I'd often be ready to base trade, anyways. It's just one of those things where maybe it only really worked well with my particular build. I had dt's sniping potential expansions and maybe I delayed their eco more than another build with a similar assortment of units versus mutas.
O yeah, the site: Show me the money When I've quit playing and you're desperate for my help, remember who forced me into quitting. It's all on you, unless you don't want it to be.
O, and about that HotS being the best game comment. I guess I owe an explanation for that one. I'm playing Toss. I like macro. I like to turtle. Cannon defense is like a dream, and with mothership core and a flying dt unit thing, it's just the most amazing fucking game I've ever seen. I couldn't design a race to be more to my specifications than that. Maybe if the race came with free marketing and a chicken suit, but other than that, perfect.
And for any wonder, I've always considered the book to be more of an RTS book than game specific. It's not like it's a build order book or anything.
On February 18 2013 02:23 playa wrote: O yeah, the site: Show me the money When I've quit playing and you're desperate for my help, remember who forced me into quitting. It's all on you, unless you don't want it to be.
plz yust shut the fuck up.
we never asked anybody to be here on the forum for our own sake, teamliquid is a community that is based on love for the games we play. sure many of us here try to improve, some maby try to become progamer, but i can say for most people here in teamliquid its still the community that is most important.
you did some nifty work in creating that book, i have to admit it. but its yust sad that you are trying to blame us for not satisfying your own financal needs.
On February 18 2013 02:23 playa wrote: O yeah, the site: Show me the money When I've quit playing and you're desperate for my help, remember who forced me into quitting. It's all on you, unless you don't want it to be.
plz yust shut the fuck up.
we never asked anybody to be here on the forum for our own sake, teamliquid is a community that is based on love for the games we play. sure many of us here try to improve, some maby try to become progamer, but i can say for most people here in teamliquid its still the community that is most important.
you did some nifty work in creating that book, i have to admit it. but its yust sad that you are trying to blame us for not satisfying your own financal needs.
really deeply sad.
Are you leveling me? You must have been really eager to find that book link, and just skipped the 100 other jokes in that. But now that I really think about it, yeah yo I think sabas123 is the main culprit. Nope, not my choice to not charge anything. I was looking for one person to single out. Looking in the mirror gets tiring.
I'm def not going to edit that line, though, as it appears to be getting to some. Yeah, let it sink in and trouble you at night, as I do something else. I could be playing against noobs, but no, the game is over. You guys might be a community, but I got a family. And my family doesn't live off nothingness. Imagine if I had 4 babies and 4 baby mommas to take care of. Everyone would be dead, and it would be on you. That's on your watch.
Have you guys seen how much some sites are worth, even this one... shoot, let my family die over the game. Quibbling over pennies, when I'm looking at billions. Give my site some monopoly money.
On February 18 2013 02:23 playa wrote: O yeah, the site: Show me the money When I've quit playing and you're desperate for my help, remember who forced me into quitting. It's all on you, unless you don't want it to be.
plz yust shut the fuck up.
we never asked anybody to be here on the forum for our own sake, teamliquid is a community that is based on love for the games we play. sure many of us here try to improve, some maby try to become progamer, but i can say for most people here in teamliquid its still the community that is most important.
you did some nifty work in creating that book, i have to admit it. but its yust sad that you are trying to blame us for not satisfying your own financal needs.
really deeply sad.
Are you leveling me? You must have been really eager to find that book link, and just skipped the 100 other jokes in that. But now that I really think about it, yeah yo I think sabas123 is the main culprit. Nope, not my choice to not charge anything. I was looking for one person to single out. Looking in the mirror gets tiring.
I'm def not going to edit that line, though, as it appears to be getting to some. Yeah, let it sink in and trouble you at night, as I do something else. I could be playing against noobs, but no, the game is over. You guys might be a community, but I got a family. And my family doesn't live off nothingness. Imagine if I had 4 babies and 4 baby mommas to take care of. Everyone would be dead, and it would be on you. That's on your watch.
Have you guys seen how much some sites are worth, even this one... shoot, let my family die over the game. Quibbling over pennies, when I'm looking at billions. Give my site some monopoly money.
tbh i think you earn more money by sites like moneymillionair than asking money for your book now purely becouse of that it has been free for so long already.
althou i do find it sad that you (not in a offenive way) don't earn enough money to support your family (atleast thats what i am getting from your posts)
"Imagine if I had 4 babies and 4 baby mommas to take care of. Everyone would be dead, and it would be on you. That's on your watch." it really isn't. no matter which way you put it, you can't really blame us even it that would happen (which i hope it won't) becouse there are still plently of ways to or make enough money by other means, or survive without money.