To my knowledge, I made one of the fastest ascensions through the ranks and rankings within a top SC country (US). Comparable to Koll and Morrow. If it were brag worthy, you wouldn't write a book on it. As it simply boils down to playing a lot, having efficient practice, and going about improvement in effective ways.
I was approached to write a "How to" book and then subsequently offered a publishing deal. If you get paid something but can't guarantee they will cover their expenses, then you can't accept that in good conscience. Thus I declined and didn't plan on finishing the book. But, I've noticed that a few players that I don't consider more knowledgeable than I am are charging $60 per hour. A time for sensibility: I took a few days and wrote a book that you can download here for free. I simply encourage you to click on the link below the download and make a free account.
One of the things that kinda irks me about coaching is that if your coaching isn't instrumental to someone improving, then how much was it worth? It has a different value for each person. The goal should be to just make sure the other person gets to the next level. If my book helps you, recommend it to a friend. If it doesn't help you so much, I encourage you to send me replays and I'll offer more in-depth analysis that's more tailored to your play. Whether it helps you or not, if devoting some time to playing makes some sense for me, then I can play some games and detail my thinking behind any given game.
The issue/idea I want to raise is that SC and SC 2 is being diluted of its talent base. I haven't played SC 2 and I don't watch it, but I would watch it if the non Koreans that I looked up to in a sense played it. For example, the three best non Korean Terran players to me were Androide, A2, and possibly Nyoken. To my knowledge, none of them even play SC 2.
What's the problem? Past a certain age (a young one at that), playing the game makes no sense whatsoever. It doesn't matter whether you enjoy playing or not. Until SC or SC 2 is like a pro sport where anyone on a team can truly justify it over having a "real job," a lot of talent will either leave the game or not put enough time into playing to be a factor. Until SC is like a pro sport, the community really needs to band together to make sure playing the game is actually a worthwhile thing to consider.
Whether you support the book or not, I hope the idea is supported; although, feel free to do both I just think it would be great to have a reason to watch games or play games on the side without thinking "man, this is throwing money and time down the drain." When Day[9], who is, IMO, the most talented non Korean player is choosing casting over playing, something isn't quite right. Don't get me wrong it's a great thing he's casting, but that's like Albert Pujols becoming a commentator during his prime. Hopefully playing games can become a logical thing for those who are passionate.
p.s. I wrote it in a span of a few days. I'll probably read it... I mean... edit it in the future.
What race are you? I have to go literally right now but I assume terran from what you've said. I can't read a whole book now, but is it for all races or just the one you play in particular (i know i wont be able to reply straight away but so i can check up on the answer tomorrow)
Dude, progaming is a hobby at best unless you keep winning tournaments. You cant live for the money you earn as a professional gamer unless you are in korea and your nick is JD, Flash,Bisu... and mayb a few more.
In EU most players get from 300-500 Euro Monthly. Now, this means: no future proof expirience, no enought savings for the future....
Something is quite wrong? Nope, just plainly put, its still just a game.
On the other hand, i wouldent call that a book, and not about strategy.
Its more a guide of behaviour for using time more effectivly while playing.
I myself am in a posession of a huge quantity of strategies (over 190 pages with small letters) of pure strategies, map analysis,etc.
Those are quite old, so many things (especially timings), have been modified, and in certrain situations even changed 100%.
For those that asked, I'm a Terran player that played pvt instead of tvt. I can play all mu's with both races. For instance, if I were to play now, I would play pvp.
For those that want more technical stuff like precise build orders and what not, that can happen in the future, but I believe it's largely trivial in comparison to just getting people to think about what goes into determining stuff like that. Plus, it's kinda hard to write something in a broad sense if you get too technical.
If you get anything out of it, that's great. If not, that's why I made it free Less expensive refunds... I think the SC 2 scene is pretty silly to some extent. For instance, I would love to see a book written by A2 on how he thinks about the game (granted it was in English), but to actually stream practice games? Exposing your strategies to opponents just seems so ridiculous to me. It's hard to take the scene seriously in a competitive sense.
On October 19 2011 20:57 playa wrote: If you get anything out of it, that's great. If not, that's why I made it free Less expensive refunds... I think the SC 2 scene is pretty silly to some extent. For instance, I would love to see a book written by A2 on how he thinks about the game (granted it was in English), but to actually stream practice games? Exposing your strategies to opponents just seems so ridiculous to me. It's hard to take the scene seriously in a competitive sense.
People stream practice games for money and to get exposure. This doesn't exist in the bw world because there is no market for it.
Besides, a lot of the progamers stream practice games for show. They turn off the stream when they are practicing for real.
Not to come off as a fan boy or anything... but if you read my Day[9] comment in the book, if you really want to get an idea of just how extraordinary he is here's more to the story.... I played him on PGT; he had a German flag and he told me I made too many "towers," referring to turrets. Now, despite this talk and me having no idea that he had a smurf account with a non USA flag, I was 100% certain I was playing against Day[9]. NO ONE plays the game like a rocket scientist besides him. Plus, no non Korean ever has as many units as Day has at any given time in a game. He is an optimization genius, and a genius in general.
Most players are either really logical or really fast and sound mechanically. Few really excel at both to the extent he does. Anyways, I guess I'm a fan boy. But, no shame in it.
To T.O.P: more specifically, I saw Strelok basically say his goal in life was to win the next tournament he was going to play in. He also said he would be streaming all of his practice games leading up to it. It's this kinda stuff that might be awesome for fans, but it just makes the scene look like a big social party. Koreans can't even leak a pro replay without being released from the team. Yet, in SC 2, it's weird to not stream games. It's just so backwards, money or not.
On October 19 2011 16:20 playa wrote: The issue/idea I want to raise is that SC and SC 2 is being diluted of its talent base. I haven't played SC 2 and I don't watch it, but I would watch it if the non Koreans that I looked up to in a sense played it. For example, the three best non Korean Terran players to me were Androide, A2, and possibly Nyoken. To my knowledge, none of them even play SC 2.
Really? Diluted of talent base? Androide and co might be good back in the day, but there will always be new talent rising up the ranks. Boxer was a great player in 2002, but he can't even touch modern SC1 progamers in his last days as a bw progamer. Why? It's because of new talent.
What's the problem? Past a certain age (a young one at that), playing the game makes no sense whatsoever. It doesn't matter whether you enjoy playing or not. Until SC or SC 2 is like a pro sport where anyone on a team can truly justify it over having a "real job," a lot of talent will either leave the game or not put enough time into playing to be a factor.
That was true for the foreign scene back in the broodwar days. But this isn't true in SC2. The very top foriegners are making good money.
Until SC is like a pro sport, the community really needs to band together to make sure playing the game is actually a worthwhile thing to consider.
How would banding together make sure playing the game is a worthwhile thing? It's all about economics, banding together doesn't change the market size.
I just think it would be great to have a reason to watch games or play games on the side without thinking "man, this is throwing money and time down the drain."
People play and watch games for entertainment.
When Day[9], who is, IMO, the most talented non Korean player is choosing casting over playing, something isn't quite right.
He decided that he'll make much more money casting over competing as a progamer. Stream for 1 hour, run 4 commercials, make $100 dollars. Why not? They get invited as a caster for events where he gets paid even more.
On October 19 2011 20:56 Zergneedsfood wrote: Hmmm, I've never heard of your name. Then again, I don't hear much of anybody's names. ><
He was in both ISLs. In ISL1 he went out 0-2 in the group with Scan/JoeKim/Cute. In ISL2, he qualified through the ladder but didn't show for the group stage.
The issue/idea I want to raise is that SC and SC 2 is being diluted of its talent base. I haven't played SC 2 and I don't watch it, but I would watch it if the non Koreans that I looked up to in a sense played it. For example, the three best non Korean Terran players to me were Androide, A2, and possibly Nyoken. To my knowledge, none of them even play SC 2.
Hi, Dont know almost anything about BW, but 1 month ago he was GM, so he does play something
To T.O.P: I've always believed Boxer was the most over rated player ever and his demise was obvious. I don't think it had that much to do with new talent, but more to do with players gaining more experience on how to play a game that was new. And, the maps stopped being so micro oriented. To be fair, it really was before my time.
I believe if Androide and A2 were to play SC 2 and play Terran, then they would be the best non Korean Terrans. People are too patriotic or isolated to realize the great feats others have made. A2, a few years ago, came very close to beating JAEDONG in a WCG series. Androide is said to be A+ with every race. This guy was getting top 3 in WCG world finals? I'm sorry, but the top end talent is no where near what it was in BW. Draco wanted a career in esports, to my knowledge; is he playing?
I'm rarely ever going to think something that Day[9] does doesn't make sense. My point is, that playing the game, for a top player, should always be more lucrative than commentating. Once that's not the case, it's only a matter of time before more and more talent shifts from playing.
You just can't take a scene seriously when a player can think "these are my opponents for an upcoming tournament, let me go check their streams to prepare counters." It's a farce. It's like everyone is conceding that they can't compete with Koreans, which I don't really disagree with... I just can't think of a reason to watch. There has to be a better way to make money with still keeping some purity in the competitive scene.
The US always had strong BW players. In SC 2 we have Sheth and Idra? They belong there, don't get me wrong, but obviously a drop off in talent has occurred if the numbers aren't more numerous. I'm probably going to check out of this thread for a bit. To the above poster, I appreciate the Nyoken information. I would like to check out his games.
Intriguing book and hehe, quite sharp opinions. I'll try to read it in my free time.
You make a very interesting point about the streaming/publicity thing. I mean, if we think about Day[9] or Artosis or people who used to be the top players in the US, they hardly ever showed their games publicly. Come to think of it, TSL was quite an anomaly for getting our hands on tons of pro replays wasn't it?
i'll read your book, i don't play BW that much any more, but i get a real good time when i read strategy or talk about strategy with friends in real life or online...
i agree with you pretty much with everything you said (not the day9 part, he is awesome and everything, but there is a lot of other less known names way more talented) , and when this coaching stuff started with incontrol i was like "why would you pay someone to teach you something, that you can learn by yourself for free...??"
On October 20 2011 10:43 NationInArms wrote: Great read! Thanks for taking the time to write this. Both you and Ver have written amazing BW guides.
Thanks. I'm glad you enjoyed it. I haven't been playing, but if anyone really feels concepts alone won't cut it for them, I won't rule out playing, sharing replays,and giving thoughts on it. Btw, if anyone doesn't enjoy it, it's cause you're a bad reader with poor comprehension. I jest
You cannot compare starcraft broodwar to starcraft 2.
In starcraft 2 counters are too one sided. This is why in finals of something like CODE A GSL, you see players scouting each 20 seconds.
Also compare workers build time 26 to 17. Only that changes the game massivly. How many times you see in pro gaming sc2 players with over 1000 minerals while not maxed, not with their full required tech, not with enought control over the map....
In starcraft 1, as far as i remmber, the only reason to bank money was zerg switch to Ultras, becouse with toss or terran, a switch HAD to be progresive, or you would die before you had the units vs very good oponents.
On the "who would be the best sc2 player" question i think we see the answer everyday. There is no way to stay on top for a long while. Fruitdealer, Nestea, MVP, MMA, MC, Idra, Tester, HUK.... all of them were owned nice and clean more than once once they had been figured out.
Really, its hard to have a player on top if getting a "standart" build is basicly putting a rope around your neck.
Non eventful PVT game: replay but I'll explain the thinking behind this game. I'm not a big fan of scouting late, especially on smaller maps. I feel that way, way more games are lost due to a lack of information, as opposed to the loss of a few minerals you could have had if you scouted later. Players have to be so evenly matched for these minerals to matter much.
So, I scouted after making my pylon. The first base I scouted was the one with the closest drop proximity to me, because the worst possible scenario is scouting that base last and having no idea of whether he is going for a drop or not. You don't want to have to alter your build over an unknown when you could simply have found out by scouting there first.
I also scout early because, if the opportunity arises, I want to pylon their factory to delay when mines will be researched. I did that this game. This simple pylon block guaranteed that I could use 1 DT to slow down his expansion time.
So, I opened with 1 DT in hopes to delay his expansion timing. If he went to attack me with a rush, I could use the DT defensively. This 1 DT basically allowed me to also expo off only a few units. So, now I have slowed his expo down while quickly getting an expo myself. He's so already lost the game. He's compounding the problem by having to build additional turrets.
My thinking shifts to he has lost the game, "it's time to just secure the win." I ended up making a cannon at my main base and my natural, before taking my third. This is something you only do when you either have to, or when you have the luxury of being able to.
One of my main goals in PVT is to get arbiters out as quickly as possible, without being vulnerable to timing attacks. I went 2 gate, speedlots then Stargate this game (I believe). This zealot time had more to do with securing a won game; normally, I find 3 gates, then researching speedlots, and then making a stargate to be the optimal timing. Very strong.
Once I know I'm not vulnerable to any large attacks and I have the units to not be spread too thin when dealing with vult harass, I take my third. When going fast arbiters, having a fast third is usually always bad. It just invites them to attack you, and it will be before you have an arbiter out. You want to play to your build's strength.
The goal against a Terran that is having to play on the defensive but has taken a fast third is to always try to recall his main as soon as you have 150 energy. It's not even really possible to defend this recall: if you make the required amount of turrets to kill/stop an arbiter at that stage in the game, you will have no units. I'll take every expo on the map with no resistance.
So, the inevitable happens, my units are in his base. I'm going to abuse the fact that he's having to defend attacks by taking the map on him. If he's defending he can't attack me. Now, I have my expos and it's time to abuse the fact that I can make him be spread too thin. I recall the natural, and then I gear up my army to go after his third. He can't attack and he can't defend anything without sacrificing something else. That's a losing proposition. GG.
It's important to think about the reasons a player does something and not obsess so much on build orders, as there are a lot of maps and optimal builds change. But, it's important to know how to accomplish the same objectives, even if you need to tweak the order of your buildings or the timing of things.
For those wondering what the standard forge timing and upgrading timing is... You make your forge so it is timed to finish shortly before your third is up. Then you make cannons at your third and usually try to take your fourth expansion before making cannons at your natural or elsewhere. The less spread out you are, the less reason for cannons, and our priority is to get ahead macro wise, thus another expansion is more important. I start upgrading, normally, after making cannons at my third.
The goal against a Terran that is having to play on the defensive but has taken a fast third is to always try to recall his main as soon as you have 150 energy. It's not even really possible to defend this recall: if you make the required amount of turrets to kill/stop an arbiter at that stage in the game, you will have no units. I'll take every expo on the map with no resistance.
I disagree with this (as always Im talking about korean pro play). Great stuff though, thanks for sharing all this hard work!
The goal against a Terran that is having to play on the defensive but has taken a fast third is to always try to recall his main as soon as you have 150 energy. It's not even really possible to defend this recall: if you make the required amount of turrets to kill/stop an arbiter at that stage in the game, you will have no units. I'll take every expo on the map with no resistance.
I disagree with this (as always Im talking about korean pro play). Great stuff though, thanks for sharing all this hard work!
if a terran does take a fast 3rd this recall can do a lot of damage. however, rushing for a recall timing should never be your main goal, you should be able to determine whether or not it is worth it. there will be terrans that are good enough to defend your recall with minimal losses and go on to counter push against that arbiter with no energy
The goal against a Terran that is having to play on the defensive but has taken a fast third is to always try to recall his main as soon as you have 150 energy. It's not even really possible to defend this recall: if you make the required amount of turrets to kill/stop an arbiter at that stage in the game, you will have no units. I'll take every expo on the map with no resistance.
I disagree with this (as always Im talking about korean pro play). Great stuff though, thanks for sharing all this hard work!
I'm not sure why you would disagree. I'm not being "haughty," I'm just not sure where you're coming from. Perhaps the confusion is on my part in how I worded what I said. I'm talking about my fast arbiter build, not standard arbiter timings.
As a terran player, it's absolutely crippling to have to make turrets early in a game to defend against recalls. It will absolutely crush your supply count and leave you playing purely defensive until you can get 3-3 (f you can survive to that point). Since I view making turrets at that stage in the game to be suicide, I'm much more inclined to attack protoss and make them use arbiters defensively.
A terran player who double expands and has their base recalled at that stage in the game is going to lose almost 100% of the time. They won't have the units to defend 3 locations, which a good player will make them try to. And, let's not forget that if they are occupied with defending, then a good toss player will abuse this by taking as many expos as he desires.
If you're not making him make turrets or get science vessels before he wants to, you're giving him extra units. I don't know how that can be a positive for us, unless you're saying we're better off going all-in and using our arbiters to stasis his tanks/units.
I'm not a writer but I wrote a book. I'm not a "website guy," but I have a website and a forum (just for kicks)! I haven't played any games, though. I'm not sure whether that would make too much sense or whether I'm having an identify crisis of sorts.
If enough people simply donate by making a free account at http://www.000webhost.com/509767.html I'll do something akin to poker coaching; in poker, coaches often times analyze a player's game and go over his "leaks," being weak spots in his play that cost him money. Well, I might not do that, but I would/will go through the ranks (say to c or c+), show the replays, and point out what I view as the "leaks" of the different ranks that we can exploit.
I think it's always very beneficial to see people actually beat the levels that you're trying to. Also, knowing what your opponents are doing wrong can only expedite your progress towards beating that level, too.
In the recent past, I've grown an affection for playing 1 mu and 1 map for a given time period. I find mixing it up to be distracting. So, I would just play the mu that most people want to see played and the map most people are interested in. These can be any mu's that aren't me as zerg. I have the most experience in tvp, pvt, and tvz; so, obviously, regardless of rank in other mu's, that might be more for entertainment/simply seeing ranks beat.
I'm largely indifferent by nature. It's up to you guys. I do appreciate the support, though. That's a welcomed change, heh.
Btw, when it comes to inspiration and seeing games that make you think "there are no rules, everything I was taught was a lie!" this game with Sea was it for me. I encourage some to check it out. A lot of stuff in this game was just so modern/new way of thinking to me. For one, I've never seen anyone try to defend against mutas without medics or gollies, or valks. I ended up taking it to the next level of having no medics or turrets, just vessels and marines. This game is just one of those games that makes you think.
I might pvt to C rank, release reps and then go over thoughts behind play and what can be exploited on a rank by rank basis. If that goes decently, then I might do tvz and so on.
I have to tell you though, this is incredibly difficult: a few months ago I broke my chair. I probably set a record for being the skinniest person to break a chair. Anyways, I'm now just playing in a regular chair without arm rests. People who say playing at lans for the first time is tough are 100% correct. I was absolutely dumbfounded when I went to WCG regionals and realized no chairs had arm rests.
I don't know whether it's the height being off or if not having arm rests just inherently tires your arms and hurts your shoulders, but it's not a lot of fun. Plus, when my arms are not in a set position it makes accuracy on the keyboard so much harder, especially when you're never using home row, as it's not typing.
How or why 99% of you play without arm rests is a mystery to me. Someone should make a guide on how to properly do this and explain why one should.
On October 27 2011 10:45 XsebT wrote: Playa, this is awesome! Thank you so much man!
Thanks/welcome.
On October 27 2011 10:54 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: great work playa. sadly not much about zerg, and i think is very late to me learn new hotkeys
Zerg is too complicated for me, ha. What am I supposed to do with 50 lings, along with all my other units? 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a9a0a? I don't have the apm or the pain threshold. Luckily, Day[9] is somehow amazing enough to pull this off and is able to articulate it all. It's quite the feat. I suggest either playing an easier race, lol, or checking out some of his material he has done in the past.
A few weeks before I broke my chair or something, I went from mid c to b-, strictly through playing tvz. I might release those reps. A lot of games versus players above b-, so maybe you could study them to some degree. Anyways, I'm sorry for taking the cop out and not playing as zerg
I started playing and realized I was just going to be repeating history: winning every game against all but 1 specific strategy which beats me from time to time. To get C rank, is 30'ish games on non motw. In the last ISL I went 30-2 in pvt, losing to that 1 specific strategy.
So, I just took my ISL replays. I looked up all the players on iccup, so the games have each players' high rank, so you know what level the other guy is. I also did an analysis on the objective/concept of my play, albeit a bit of a ramble. In the future, I might look at specific games between the ranks and add some stuff on that front, if any observations jump out at me.
I do look forward to playing some tvz in the near future, as I feel my build is pretty much near optimal for Python, with the only real counter being to outplay me. Which isn't much of a counter, but not the hardest of feats when inactive, heh. Anyways, I'll change that for this. I find the build pretty fun, solid, and interesting.
I look forward to getting that out of the way, as tvp is the really complicated mu, at least out of those that I play. I find that really interesting as that presents really challenging problems and things to consider.
Anyways, it's going to work like this. If you want to view the replays or analysis, go to my site here and make a free (or pay) account and then message me on teamliquid.net or email me for the password to files.
Note: I actually won't receive anything unless people actually are active with their site or whatever. That's not really an issue to me, though. This is just how this will work/experiment. If you do actually make a site, not there isn't any reason not to, you should make an account on my forum and simply post it/talk about it to bring it to others attention. Anyways, thanks!
I just want to add that I definitely wasn't playing like nony. I have no idea why my apm was that low. Maybe it was boredom. Point is, this can help anyone that plays pvt, as this is purely strategical.
D and D+ are tough. Often times you find yourself with such a big advantage early game that your opponent is forced to abandon his plan and simply go 3 hatch speed lings all-in. Making that mental shift on the defensive side of things and being prepared to deal with it seems to be the catch. In one of my games, I was in my opponent's base micro'ing my vulture for a minute. Killing things at will, but... I realized I forgot to make a supply depot. I ended up killing one of my own marines so I could make a vessel that I didn't even need, only to lose to 3 hatch speed lings.
Anytime your opponent is acting out of desperation, that's a good spot for us, but there's still no margin for error for us if we're tech heavy. When I have the time I will rectify that and get out the games to C.
With that said, here are my reps from C to B- [url blocked], minus 2 losses at C and a few wins I had at C. 1 loss was to an early mid game all-in. I needed 2 bunkers instead of one. The other loss was due to simply being outplayed and outmacro'd (if memory serves me correct); although, I beat the player in a later rematch. These games are on one of my friend's accounts, and I was playing purely pvz before mid-c.
A few comments. I think not going 8 or 9 rax on python is a mistake. For starters, at close positions, when I go 10 rax and I scout an incoming 4 pool I still usually lose, as the lings arrive way too quickly. Due to the close proximity of the bases you can usually kill off a few drones and cause them to lose mining time. Note: I never bunker rush anyone. At the very least, you can usually intercept an overlord heading to overlook the cliff at your natural. When most players go early pool, they are looking to kill us early, and an early rax just makes us safer. Whether it's exploitable or not, I don't think many players are either going to be going for builds that can do it to us or will have the skill to do so, making it moot. Anytime you can take the initiative in a game and have it be backed by good reasoning, I think that's ideal. We're not playing against pros so putting players to the test is always beneficial. The earlier the better.
In a rematch against the player I lost to, cloudwind, that game brought up an important situation to understand. That would be related to "doom drops." You have to realize that we only want to defend against mass drops for so long. Basically, you have to view this as an inevitable base trading game and your goal is to simply to have the units to kill him off first. This usually means waiting to have enough vessels to feel comfortable that you're not at risk of ever being vesseless and having enough tanks to remain cost efficient versus things such as sunkens.
Once you think you have a good base trading army if it comes to be, you just want to be in a position to pounce on their main before they can amass units. If we can just lock down our natural and keep that safe, this should be a 100% won game for us. Even if we lose our natural, as long as we can keep some buildings away from him, we should still win.
If you keep going to your base to defend "doom drops," your opponent will keep gaining an advantage and he will have map control. There's nothing for us to gain from this. We only want to defend against minimal drops that don't put the Zerg player at great risk if it fails but puts us at risk if it succeeds. Things such as 2 or 4 lurker drops.
Also, a few things that help offset getting a later expansion than other builds could offer us. With this build, the vulture and the vessel are the mvps that have to deliver. The vulture is outside of the opponent's choke to, ofc, gather some intelligence and what not, but it also serves to delay zerg from taking a third, by being able to snipe any would be expo'ing drones. The vessel allows us to get away without making turrets, unless they 2 hatch, but then it's not a macro game, so who cares? When you don't make turrets, it's like being given minerals, so it offsets having a later expo to some degree.
In the guide you suggest that players get a winrate of 65% on Bnet before moving to ICCup.
I disagree only because so many people on Bnet who play 1's cheat. Players can get great experience even by losing a lot on ICCup playing D- games. I know I did!
Not to uh, burst your little bubble or what have you, but your OP looked like you were a little up on your high horse, and I'm familiar with who's good and who's not so good, at least in the US region, until around summer of 2010, then I switched to SC2 and pretty much don't pay attention to BW anymore (not that I don't love it, it's the best game ever).
However, I decided to shoot LRM)Game a message, with a link to this thread, asking who you were.. because again, I've never heard of you, and an ascension as fast as you described would be note worthy indeed.
According to LRM)Game, you are "B- protoss who got raped in ISL1 and ISL2 in the group stages... he's fucking bad. Not Kolll or Morrow at all."
And judging by some of your comments and past posts here on TL... I completely agree.
Not that you can't help people, just... don't act delusional please.
On October 29 2011 11:45 Ero-Sennin wrote: Not to uh, burst your little bubble or what have you, but your OP looked like you were a little up on your high horse, and I'm familiar with who's good and who's not so good, at least in the US region, until around summer of 2010, then I switched to SC2 and pretty much don't pay attention to BW anymore (not that I don't love it, it's the best game ever).
However, I decided to shoot LRM)Game a message, with a link to this thread, asking who you were.. because again, I've never heard of you, and an ascension as fast as you described would be note worthy indeed.
According to LRM)Game, you are "B- protoss who got raped in ISL1 and ISL2 in the group stages... he's fucking bad. Not Kolll or Morrow at all."
And judging by some of your comments and past posts here on TL... I completely agree.
Not that you can't help people, just... don't act delusional please.
Thank you.
So you got an opinion from one person and take that as complete fact?
Is it possible LRM)Game is biased or doesn't know every single player in the US and doesn't know their skill level? Sure he may know a lot about people within his circle of friends or who frequent his tournaments...but I'll assure you there are numerous players from the US he isn't familiar with or knows hardly anything about. And who knows, maybe the OP didn't practice for the tournaments your discussing. Unless you watch him play first hand or critique his information directly its closed minded to reject his information. Open mindedness is gathering all the information about something together and making the most logical decision based on that information. Closed mindedness is the opposite. An example of closed mindedness is getting information from one person then formulating your conclusions. This opens you up to all kinds of bias and error. Its like doing a lab to test a hypothesis with only one trial. You're going to get a lot of error and you might not be getting accurate results.
On October 29 2011 11:45 Ero-Sennin wrote: Not to uh, burst your little bubble or what have you, but your OP looked like you were a little up on your high horse, and I'm familiar with who's good and who's not so good, at least in the US region, until around summer of 2010, then I switched to SC2 and pretty much don't pay attention to BW anymore (not that I don't love it, it's the best game ever).
However, I decided to shoot LRM)Game a message, with a link to this thread, asking who you were.. because again, I've never heard of you, and an ascension as fast as you described would be note worthy indeed.
According to LRM)Game, you are "B- protoss who got raped in ISL1 and ISL2 in the group stages... he's fucking bad. Not Kolll or Morrow at all."
And judging by some of your comments and past posts here on TL... I completely agree.
Not that you can't help people, just... don't act delusional please.
Thank you.
Not to rain on your "hating parade," but in the last WCG tournament I beat you in the final 4 and you threw a hissy fit. I can understand that in the heat of the moment, as that's part of being competitive for some, but this? What's the point? I was obviously never one of the best players, if top 5 USA is your gauge on "best." That said, how many of these "best" players actually remain in BW or talk about it? 0. So, if you have a problem with me talking about SC, then you should probably refrain from doing it yourself.
I didn't show up to ISL 2. In ISL 1, I lost to Scan who was either hacking or is really playing at a pro gamer level who really scouted something that wasn't telegraphed at all. I hear Koreans are good.... in the second game, it was a very close game that I had won if I simply floated my buildings to a safe location. I had the means to do so, I just didn't really care to do it. Anyways, it was probably the closest game in ISL ladder or group stages, so using the word rape is a bit silly.
Also for someone at your level, you fail pretty bad at logic. What kinda skill level do you think it takes to make things such at top 16 USA or top 10? If you read my home page, you will notice that I haven't been in ANY teams since 2006. It's a little hard to be noticed if you're not looking to be noticed... So, now your "argument" hinges on when did I start playing SC. If you want, I can tell you who bought me the game. I have no idea where you're coming from. Instead of getting angry over largely fictitious reasons, why not just offer better help to others. For one, I'm sure you're better at pvt than I am, going from your talk... help me out...
For the sake of realizing the irony and ridiculousness.... here's game 2 from WCG: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=49412 versus Sennin. I won this series 2-1 and used this "fun" build every game. I probably beat this guy in the last tournament he has ever played and under the name "Playa," yet he has to ask someone else who I am. And he comes back with I'm a B- PROTOSS player. Well, at least people know what race I play... check out my pvp. It's not about a "penis" contest. It's about making sense. If you're a C rank player, you can help out people who are below your skill level. It's not about coming up with arbitrary numbers and ranks to define who is good or who isn't. We all can't be Ero_Sennin and be better than 100% of players.
On October 29 2011 05:02 gvb wrote: In the guide you suggest that players get a winrate of 65% on Bnet before moving to ICCup.
I disagree only because so many people on Bnet who play 1's cheat. Players can get great experience even by losing a lot on ICCup playing D- games. I know I did!
I think you're overstating things a bit. Unless mineral hacking is rampant, I think around 65% is a good general rule of thumb. And if you do know who is cheating or who isn't, simply factor in the legit games. In theory, playing against D level players on iccup should be good for new players, but in reality, not only will the D players probably be considerably better, but you won't be playing against "true" D rank players for probably the majority of the time. And if you do end up as D- or whatever, it can't make anyone feel great, whether it should or not.
In short, I find little harm in making sure you can crush battle.net before taking on a much bigger challenge.
Btw, the build against Sennin was a 1 factory, acad build. 5 marines, 2 medics, with 2 or 3 tanks and vultures with mines to follow. I researched marine range but didn't get stim. I've never seen anyone do this, so naturally I had to do it and stick to it. To those that have read the book, they would be more likely to understand this stuff.
Yesterday and today I played some TVZ on iccup. It wasn't the prettiest thing ever, but given the circumstances, I'll take it. I went 32-4 on this account:yaaawn (server went down during rematch vs "tosszerg". Btw, I absolutely have no apm in tvz without arm rests...
You can find all of the replays here. In the first loss, he simply made more lings than I thought he did; I tried to block my ramp with 1 scv, figuring that was the appropriate number. I was wrong and that game was all about timing. If my timing is on the money, he's in trouble. If I'm off and he has decent muta micro, I'm in trouble. Irradiate should finish as the first mutas enter your base, and you need to have a few turrets ready by then, also. Fail all around, but it's been a while since I've been in this spot.
In the second loss, this is just a bad loss. For one, when I have to make a vessel and tank that early in the game, I'm going to want to take my gas at my natural very fast. Then, I'm going to want to add another rax, giving me 2, and then I want to make another factory (against hydra compositions). That's just me being inactive. The next problem was, I was complacent due to thinking I had a sufficient advantage; when your opponent goes hydras and is in the middle of the map, his drones are begging for you to "eraser" them. See my replays against "tosszerg" to see how you make a mockery of these players. Also, when I went to kill my opponent's expo, I didn't realize he had another expo. If I would have known that, I definitely would have went for his natural, and then if it made sense to attack that expo I would have sent units there. Big mistakes.
The third loss is what I would consider my only real loss. It was against an A- player who used the only strategy that makes me grimace: taking an early third with his scouting drone, negating my vulture. I think he might have been conceding his natural to me, as I had killed his first overlord and I had the means to bunker rush him. I just don't bunker rush people. I feel like unless they do what he did, then the bunker rush doesn't change anything. It just reeks of impatience and is a bad habit in my eyes. In this case, whether I wanted to take his hatchery down or not, I probably should have made a bunker just so I could pick off drones if he tried to stop it (no intention of completing the bunker).
Once he has that early third, I'm not real sure what to do. The only thing that really makes sense to me is try to use vultures with mines to clear a path to take down his third with my initial marines. Using mines to cut off reinforcements and to keep you safe from a counter. Worst case scenario would be, hopefully, he has to make a few sunkens at his third. 3 bases, 1 sunken, that's just a huge problem, let alone in the hands of an A- player.
The fourth loss... I miss timed my bunker... wasn't even really close, really. If you play against the computer enough, I guess you're bound to shoot yourself in the foot and lose, eventually.
I made my pvt replays password free and the tvz replays. All I ask is that you download the replays, and if your skill in the mu increases a rank, simply sign up on the affiliate in the "book" page. It's completely free and I imagine it only takes a minute. No one should want to pay for SC coaching, yet not many can really afford to coach for free. I think not taking advantage of this is a mistake.
To be honest, given how terran players play as a whole, combined with the difficulty in tvp to begin with, I think the only skill in pvt required against the majority of players is simply knowing what to do. If you watch the replays, pvt or tvz and you don't improve a rank (if you're C or below) within 2 weeks, simply send me your replays and I'll tell you what to do differently. There's 0 reason to struggle in pvt at low ranks unless you choose to. T vs Z is always going to take some skill, but I can help you there as it's simple enough to be taught to anyone.
Wow I've only read the first few parts but this is a great guide. I don't even play StarCraft Broodwar anymore, but I think this may help me get above Platinum :>
Not to steer your thread off topic but I will slightly, in the fact that you magically think winning a BO3 makes you better, let's ignore the fact that when we played a BO 3 the qualifier or two before that I won and you were quite the little BM boy. That's what, a total of 6 games? Can't see much from that.
And of course I should have won, but you got away with doing stupid stuff, so congrats to you. I look at the games as me losing rather than you winning, because you should have lost, as the worse players usually should. As for you comparing yourself to the rise of Koll and stuff... it's laughable.. clearly there's a disconnect going on, because there's a big difference between him and you, and you had no such rise at all.
But you know what, if you help out one person, then I guess this whole thread was worth it, so kudos to you in the end
On November 02 2011 04:23 Ero-Sennin wrote: Not to steer your thread off topic but I will slightly, in the fact that you magically think winning a BO3 makes you better, let's ignore the fact that when we played a BO 3 the qualifier or two before that I won and you were quite the little BM boy. That's what, a total of 6 games? Can't see much from that.
And of course I should have won, but you got away with doing stupid stuff, so congrats to you. I look at the games as me losing rather than you winning, because you should have lost, as the worse players usually should. As for you comparing yourself to the rise of Koll and stuff... it's laughable.. clearly there's a disconnect going on, because there's a big difference between him and you, and you had no such rise at all.
But you know what, if you help out one person, then I guess this whole thread was worth it, so kudos to you in the end
Are you stupid or just a good actor? When people refer to Koll or Morrow's improvement, they generally bring it up in reference to that it only took them a few months to reach B- (what has morrow won?). If you think it didn't take at least B to qualify for WCG in 2006 or 2007, you're an idiot. In 2007, I went something like 24-1 in online qualifiers under "endlesssorrows." Funny, I don't remember you as being a good player (in fact, I don't recall you). You were probably a player that I used as a floor mat if you played in WCG during that time.
You're either an idiot or incredibly ignorant, as, if you read the book, it's not real hard to make sense out of things. One, I'm using the same "fun" strat every f'ing game. A strat that is easily counterable... Two, tvp is by far my worst worst matchup. Anytime you win a pvt, if you're feeling like a boss, you're probably a clown as it takes so little skill in comparison to tvp. If you can lose to me in tvp, I can assure you I would destroy you in pvp if I were to practice it. Me off racing pvp is probably already playing at a higher level than you.
If you can't feel like a guy with a pie in your face by now, nothing will. Get your eyes checked.
ps. in 2007, I played Mondragon 4 times, going 2-2. Could someone link me to his strategy guide so I can talk out of my ass and talk about how bad Mondragon is? Thanks.
Btw, I think it would be fantastic if players who "crush" any given matchup were to release their ladder replays and offer thoughts. For instance, I don't know "Draw," unless he has another aka, but he's dominating pvp. At this point in SC, if you haven't reached your goals, that has to be beyond frustrating. Unless giving advice is going to interfere with winning tournaments or w/e, you may as well (not to say that players such as Draw don't help already).
I just think there's so much to gain from watching all of a player's replays in ladder. For instance, I "used" to really struggle against 14 nexus in tvp, but I watched Shaman's (either him or a terran from Norway) games and realized he was attacking with 2 fac tank and bringing 12 scvs. That really blew my mind, but it's something I incorporated on lost temple which really helped me. It's just things like that, where if you're not watching a players face all of the strategies, you're really missing out on things that could potentially help you and open your mind to new possibilities.
For a while, I've always thought that if you're going to be playing SC you should either be focused on improving or coming up with original strategies or both. Else, what's the point?
On November 02 2011 04:23 Ero-Sennin wrote: Not to steer your thread off topic but I will slightly, in the fact that you magically think winning a BO3 makes you better, let's ignore the fact that when we played a BO 3 the qualifier or two before that I won and you were quite the little BM boy. That's what, a total of 6 games? Can't see much from that.
And of course I should have won, but you got away with doing stupid stuff, so congrats to you. I look at the games as me losing rather than you winning, because you should have lost, as the worse players usually should. As for you comparing yourself to the rise of Koll and stuff... it's laughable.. clearly there's a disconnect going on, because there's a big difference between him and you, and you had no such rise at all.
But you know what, if you help out one person, then I guess this whole thread was worth it, so kudos to you in the end
man.why u just not pm him about this ? u off topic his great work,and also bm him not reason.and i agree with playa u act really stupid this time
On November 02 2011 08:20 playa wrote: Btw, I think it would be fantastic if players who "crush" any given matchup were to release their ladder replays and offer thoughts. For instance, I don't know "Draw," unless he has another aka, but he's dominating pvp. At this point in SC, if you haven't reached your goals, that has to be beyond frustrating. Unless giving advice is going to interfere with winning tournaments or w/e, you may as well (not to say that players such as Draw don't help already).
I just think there's so much to gain from watching all of a player's replays in ladder. For instance, I "used" to really struggle against 14 nexus in tvp, but I watched Shaman's (either him or a terran from Norway) games and realized he was attacking with 2 fac tank and bringing 12 scvs. That really blew my mind, but it's something I incorporated on lost temple which really helped me. It's just things like that, where if you're not watching a players face all of the strategies, you're really missing out on things that could potentially help you and open your mind to new possibilities.
For a while, I've always thought that if you're going to be playing SC you should either be focused on improving or coming up with original strategies or both. Else, what's the point?
On November 02 2011 08:20 playa wrote: Btw, I think it would be fantastic if players who "crush" any given matchup were to release their ladder replays and offer thoughts. For instance, I don't know "Draw," unless he has another aka, but he's dominating pvp. At this point in SC, if you haven't reached your goals, that has to be beyond frustrating. Unless giving advice is going to interfere with winning tournaments or w/e, you may as well (not to say that players such as Draw don't help already).
I just think there's so much to gain from watching all of a player's replays in ladder. For instance, I "used" to really struggle against 14 nexus in tvp, but I watched Shaman's (either him or a terran from Norway) games and realized he was attacking with 2 fac tank and bringing 12 scvs. That really blew my mind, but it's something I incorporated on lost temple which really helped me. It's just things like that, where if you're not watching a players face all of the strategies, you're really missing out on things that could potentially help you and open your mind to new possibilities.
For a while, I've always thought that if you're going to be playing SC you should either be focused on improving or coming up with original strategies or both. Else, what's the point?
Draw goes by the name KidCanada and etc
I was fearing that, that was his AKA, as I also had no idea who that was. Over the recent years there's been some players that I know of, but really don't know their story or anything.
If he doesn't want to release his replays, that's OK, though, because I can dominate pvp, too. lol. I played 25 pvp games today, going 24-1. I think I was hallucinating during my loss... as I canceled my gas because I thought I spotted 2 gateways. Then I lost my scouting probe to zealots... and I thought I was up against a dt drop of sorts. A snowball of failure that game was.
Don't ask me about pvp, I just used a fun build that I was messing around with for a few games last season. In the past, I've played some standard pvp games at b- and b, faring well. Problem is, pvp is largely tilting as it's hard to really dominate (for non kidcanadians) as there seems to be a lot of luck involved in standard play. Eg., my opponent is able to scout me, but I'm denied of scouting. I have to make observers, and my opponent, knowing this, just quickly expands and makes a million units -- only making a robo when it's needed.
The build I used guarantees you will scout your opponent and you will be able to play "the same game," as it's more of a dictating build that lets your opponent worry about the countering stuff. And, since no one is playing like this... it's an inherent advantage, and I'm bringing out the strongest units ASAP. Great strat or not, I dunno. I just find it fun.
Btw, I also added some random videos that aren't related to SC.
To the poster who brought up the best SC foreigner question, I don't have my detective glasses on, so I can't answer veiled questions. So, I'll take it at face value. Idra, nony, draco, pj, androide and A2 are probably the players that achieved the highest skill level in the non Korean scene. While you had to be good to make it to Korea in the first place, that training really kind of made them "Korean."
On November 05 2011 15:09 worosei wrote: so no chance of you trying SC2?
For me to seriously contemplate playing SC 2, it would have to be on TV and would have to be more like other sports. My friend, Gretorp, made a really good blog about teams and how your passion for something can kinda hinder you from pursuing more lucrative alternatives. Something like, until there are agents involved and the general player age is pretty young, a lot of players are happy to get anything, which doesn't allow players to get a fair shake/deal.
As long as there is pressure to win tournaments and the top players are very talented, it kinda makes one think "why not just try playing poker or get a real job?" There becomes a point where you want to make sure you're not just doing something because you can, but because you want to do it and it "adds up."
Just think about how much Koreans practiced in SC. Something like 14 hours a day? Who really wants to compete against something like that? If you're serious about competing you can't ignore that you have to be playing a similar amount of hours to remain realistic about your prospects of success.
Dear playa, I am really thankful for your strategy book, However I have been always a low/mid D player, Originally started as terran and my mechanics are still there . Every time some one plays with me TvT , My brain just freezes and I can't do a thing ,compared to my other match up . I am not sure how should I react . There was once I knew my opponent is on one base and is making tons of dropship ,yet I decided to take a third and he sees that as a opportunity to drop tanks on my base and I immediately lost despite me having the economical advantage.
I really like playing terran but TvT has always been the downside of my game . Any advice ? I am thinking of going protoss but my mechanics are really not that strong however I like the freedom I am given in protoss having observers to scout my enemy and to flank when needed if i see a opening . PvP is not really favourable for me also but I can deal with it .
On November 06 2011 01:48 Sawamura wrote: Dear playa, I am really thankful for your strategy book, However I have been always a low/mid D player, Originally started as terran and my mechanics are still there . Every time some one plays with me TvT , My brain just freezes and I can't do a thing ,compared to my other match up . I am not sure how should I react . There was once I knew my opponent is on one base and is making tons of dropship ,yet I decided to take a third and he sees that as a opportunity to drop tanks on my base and I immediately lost despite me having the economical advantage.
I really like playing terran but TvT has always been the downside of my game . Any advice ? I am thinking of going protoss but my mechanics are really not that strong however I like the freedom I am given in protoss having observers to scout my enemy and to flank when needed if i see a opening . PvP is not really favourable for me also but I can deal with it .
Thanks. I switched to pvt as I really disliked tvt. The games ran too long and it just felt bad for my health. That said, I could maybe play 25 tvt games or play to C rank. I can only handle so much tvt, but every once in a long period of time it can be amusing to play. It would be a learning experience for me as I never play it, but I can give thoughts as I learn
As for losing to your opponent when you have an advantage, a big part of not losing when you have an advantage is simply putting yourself in your opponent's shoes. If you can understand how you could lose a game and you understand what is in your opponent's arsenal/capabilities, that goes a long ways in enabling you to defend against that. If you realize your opponent is going a different route, then you can adjust.
When I was just starting out at pvt, I beat a B-team pro gamer terran (gosi[desire]). My build was such a joke. Proxy expo for my natural, early cannons. My play was just god awful, but I made it to the middle game with some expos and I had arbiters. As long as you have arbiters and some expos, you're in a good spot 99% of the time. Arbiters make the game so, so complicated for terran. Point is, odds are it wouldn't take you very long to be playing pvt at least at the same level as you're playing tvt now, so it just comes down to what matchup you want to play. Don't be afraid to experiment.
So in the midst of macroing my base , I have to put my self in my opponent shoes and figured out what steps will he take . I didn't really think about that and it never occurred to me . I could have thought out things like that .. Thanks again playa... I will definitely remind my self to do that and not let my advantage slip away from my hands again.
Also, think about it this way -- why is map hack banned? Obviously because it would give the other player an enormous advantage because he would already know what's going on. Well, the same premise is behind why you need to be comsating as much as you can. Whoever gains the information advantage is better able to counter a "real" opponent and, in turn, win the game.
I use the term "real" to refer to players that spend their time and resources countering non existent threats because they either aren't using comsat enough or they are not processing the repercussions of not utilizing every unit and mineral to its fullest. For instance if you're defending against a drop and your opponent doesn't even have a starport, wtf are you doing? This is something you only do when you can afford to error on the side of extreme caution, or because you haven't been using comsat properly so you can't be sure until you become more informed.
On November 07 2011 10:44 BlazeTSR wrote: Starcraft 2 is a brand new game. Players in BW had been playing for years to get to the level they had achieved.
I'm definitely aware of that. On one hand that has made me think about what it would be like to start on an even playing field. On the other hand, it has made me quite indifferent on when I play, if I ever do.
Over the years, I've realized how hard it is to win tournaments when you're not in a team or don't have any practice partners outside of ladder games. It's tough coming from a ladder setting and not really being aware of how people will adapt to your play or if you need to change it up to remain "optimal." Also, unless the maps you need to practice are MOTW, you just can't ever practice the maps.
In short, if you play SC 2 and you want to be competitive in tournaments, you have to join a team. If that involves living with others guys, some that you don't even respect or like, I'd rather not. Maybe if it was a girl team...
The day that online poker in the US ceased, I told my friend that it will eventually come back and US players will probably only be allowed to play against each other. There will be a window of time where the game is very easy and the "easy money" will be somewhat comparable to what we hear the old school poker players talk about when online poker was starting out.
I don't know if the above scenario will play out that way, but it's looking like it's going to go down that path for the time being, and I find that prospect to be more of a thing I wouldn't want to miss than playing a game that people deem inferior to BW.
I played 25 tvp games, going 23-2 (replays are on my site). I feel like I played it considerably more correctly than other terran players, yet I found it challenging. It spurred me to play pvt, as I figured I probably should be expected to go 40-0 in pvt without breaking a sweat. While I do believe that to be true, as you're only required to be able to counter standard play and 2 fac... (o gawd, will he make tanks and vultures!?) I stopped at 30-0. Replays are on my site.
I think anyone who has reached any level beyond a "casual" level in SC has to have some sort of perfectionism drive in them related to SC; I was bothered by my previous tvz games through C rank. So, I played more. I have stopped at 25-1. I "forced" a player to go 3 hatch speed lings, all-in, at close positions. Tough loss. Would like to comment on the only viable solution to this, in my eyes: you have to have a scv or vulture at your opponent's natural to give yourself a chance to react. At close positions, once spotted, since you don't have time to make another bunker, you simply have to look to hold your ramp, using quite a few scvs.
While playing these games, I saw some initiative by two other players to record FP vods. I made a couple for personal use in the past, so I went a head and made two, as I know a lot of people would much rather view a FP vod than a replay. I didn't cherry pick: I simply recorded my last game played in each matchup. These are on my site, too, btw. T vs Z is against a b- player. P vs T is against a C player.
I think a friend once said "I'm not saying I'm right, but I'm definitely saying you're wrong." That's, at least, the feeling I get when I watch others play. For the love of god, try doing something different. If you just sign up to the affiliate on my site, feel free to send me replays (losses). At this point most players have peaked, without additional help. It only makes sense to explore that. Btw, I'm probably done playing games in the near/foreseeable future, unless I'm messing around in pvp.
I like the idea you raise up , for example if your opponent isn't doing something to kill you , he's cooking up some other drastic plan to make your life miserable .Again I want to thank you for this awesome guide . It's recommended that any newbie who wants to be better at broodwar , has to read playa's fight to the top guide .
On January 08 2012 23:34 Sawamura wrote: I like the idea you raise up , for example if your opponent isn't doing something to kill you , he's cooking up some other drastic plan to make your life miserable .Again I want to thank you for this awesome guide . It's recommended that any newbie who wants to be better at broodwar , has to read playa's fight to the top guide .
Thanks. I haven't played a game since uploading the FP vods, and my comp recently broke, but it's still great to see that there are players playing such a good game.
I think I cover a lot of basic stuff, but I also think there's so much neglect when it comes to simply basic stuff, that it, alone, can make all the difference in the world. If you can simply win the "information war," in-game and out-of-game, improving should be made much easier. When I say out-of-game information, to me it means just downloading a ton of replays and knowing the ranks of all the players you're watching; after you accumulate so many replays from various levels, you will begin to understand why players are certain ranks and know the "ingredients" to it. This makes it soooo much easier to go about reaching the next rank and so on. It takes some of the guess work out of it and the need to try to emulate a pro gamer in one giant leap.
In-game information.. think of StarCraft as chess.... if you're pieces are visible and your opponent's are invisible to you, who will win? How good of position will your pieces be in comparison to his? How likely are you to capitalize on your opportunities? You can see, by simply scouting your opponent frequently, you're really not even playing the same game.
You just have to be mindful of "am I utilizing every unit I have to its fullest?" Don't defend against imaginary threats when you can obtain the knowledge to know there's nothing to fear. Whoever has the most information is always able to make the most-informed decisions.
Both players go standard, you're saying "I'm going to try to win by having the better execution." If you go non standard, you obviously want to have crisp execution, but you're also aiming to take your opponent of his comfort zone. You want to play the same game you're accustomed to playing, while you're opponent feels like he is playing a different game, a reactionary one that puts him/her at least a few steps behind you. Just be aware of where the advantages lie and what your objectives must be.
Wow, as I read this I cannot help but be reminded of this: LockhartsLament.pdf You showcase the artistry that Starcraft can be -- Very insightful writing! Thank you!
dam thats a lot of apm spam at the start for the tvz one. lol another alternative to apm spaming as terran in the start is to micro ur scvs to mine faster. just a random tip btw i loved ur book
Damn, that thing is nicely written. It's rather rare to see someone trying to get the important points across instead of mindless fluff about "Just micro and macro better and play tenthousand games!!!11"
:o I was hoping this thread was dead and would remain so! Due to megaupload going down and my prior computer having "died," I haven't had the book myself. Ultimately, anytime someone does something, a judgement is rendered. Anytime your anxiety is increased, you'd like to think there's something to either help offset it or make it worthwhile.
I feel sheepish and treasonous or something I honestly never planned on playing SC 2. I unexpectedly found myself with a week off, and I really wanted to get a game. I really wanted to get a hockey game, as I just think it's the best sport and love the hockey video games. But, eventually, I was like "I can't rationalize getting a PS 3 just so I can get 1 game, with no intentions of getting anything else." Thus, I settled on trying out SC 2.
I can't stress how big of a thing it is to see a lot of tournaments in SC 2 that accommodate players, who qualify for their events, with flights to their events. In WCG this year, in SC 2, you saw people winning their national WCG finals and then turning down going to the World Finals. Personally, if I had any aspirations of being competitive, I would probably choose w/e game that gave me less reservations about choosing to advance on after winning/qualifying.
I'm currently playing HotS and I find it fun/interesting/new challenge, but be it SC 2 or HotS, I pretty much find every mu but p vs p (more times than not) to be trash, or at least far inferior to watch to their BW "counterparts." It's really sad almost to think how much worse of an experience it is to view SC matches now. And to couple that with SC 2 basically replacing the BW show, it feels wrong to some extent.
To me it just seems like it should perhaps be some kinda egregious offense anytime an inferior product ends up completely supplanting a superior product, that the current product can only hope of becoming. Ultimately, there's a sense of that's not how the world should ever work; that's simply our world revolving around money and Blizzard being out of ideas on how to create more money inflow from BW.
Anytime incentive is lost to cater to people that are simply playing the superior game, then you do have to worry about the inevitable "death" of that game. I frankly enjoy playing SC 2 and welcome the change of pace/differences, but you'd hate to think you're contributing to the death of something that is "objectively" better. At the bare minimum, they should co exist. The superior product should never fade into oblivion, even if the successor has promise of blossoming into a really amazing game. If BW fades away, it should only be after a successor has proven to be a better game; not simply a game with the most potential for money to be had.
Anyways, all I'm really trying to say is that I really enjoy seeing that there are still people playing BW and/or care about the game. 40k people with no ambitions of being a pro gamer could watch a 30 minute turtle fest, with broodlord, infestor, or they could watch a real game, with entertainment value, granted there was still a BW scene to watch. Why are we subjecting ourselves to watch something that is clearly not as good? I don't know the answers. I just know I have a lot of respect for people that say, "I like this. I know there is more value here. You're not going to get me to accept less value for no reason without substance."
It's great to see and hopefully BW can have a resurgence of some kind, even though it probably will take outside forces (not Blizzard).
Hi. I'm not sure if you saw it or not, but dead9 uploaded it at http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10033445/The Fight to the Top.pdf. If that doesn't suffice, hopefully someone can upload a downloadable version and perhaps I can get around to updating the OP... After reading your mention of google drive, there's some "good news" and some bad news: I was reminded that I actually do have a word document saved on there, as long as a PDF version. But, even if I didn't have to edit it, which I do, I'd still have to download a trial and convert it. That might not sound like a biggie, but you made me realize that I really have an aversion towards the past, as well as the future/present...
In other words, tomorrow, I'm going to wake up and not want to see this post. And if I did, I would sigh, shake my head, and then think "what was he thinking? Why?" *shrugs* While I'm not sure how normal it is to have a sense of "oh gawd..." when looking at anything in retrospect, that would be a problem here unless someone else steps up to the plate -- granted the above link does not suffice. Given what I have said, I'd urge you to simply watch old day[9] dailies
As for the person that linked to the SSL, thanks. That's fantastic. I'm going to try to catch the finals. I watched one game, from "the top 10." Heh, I'm kinda worried if I watch more that I might not find the willpower to stomach watching anymore WoL. Even in a "bad game," it's hard to not be in a state of awe, after realizing how the players are doing so many things manually, seemingly at once. WoL might be more interesting if pros played with similar mechanics, but even then, I just don't see a comparison.
To my knowledge, I made one of the fastest ascensions through the ranks and rankings within a top SC country (US). Comparable to Koll and Morrow. If it were brag worthy, you wouldn't write a book on it. As it simply boils down to playing a lot, having efficient practice, and going about improvement in effective ways.
On January 08 2012 23:34 Sawamura wrote: I like the idea you raise up , for example if your opponent isn't doing something to kill you , he's cooking up some other drastic plan to make your life miserable .Again I want to thank you for this awesome guide . It's recommended that any newbie who wants to be better at broodwar , has to read playa's fight to the top guide .
Thanks. I haven't played a game since uploading the FP vods, and my comp recently broke, but it's still great to see that there are players playing such a good game.
I think I cover a lot of basic stuff, but I also think there's so much neglect when it comes to simply basic stuff, that it, alone, can make all the difference in the world. If you can simply win the "information war," in-game and out-of-game, improving should be made much easier. When I say out-of-game information, to me it means just downloading a ton of replays and knowing the ranks of all the players you're watching; after you accumulate so many replays from various levels, you will begin to understand why players are certain ranks and know the "ingredients" to it. This makes it soooo much easier to go about reaching the next rank and so on. It takes some of the guess work out of it and the need to try to emulate a pro gamer in one giant leap.
In-game information.. think of StarCraft as chess.... if you're pieces are visible and your opponent's are invisible to you, who will win? How good of position will your pieces be in comparison to his? How likely are you to capitalize on your opportunities? You can see, by simply scouting your opponent frequently, you're really not even playing the same game.
You just have to be mindful of "am I utilizing every unit I have to its fullest?" Don't defend against imaginary threats when you can obtain the knowledge to know there's nothing to fear. Whoever has the most information is always able to make the most-informed decisions.
Both players go standard, you're saying "I'm going to try to win by having the better execution." If you go non standard, you obviously want to have crisp execution, but you're also aiming to take your opponent of his comfort zone. You want to play the same game you're accustomed to playing, while you're opponent feels like he is playing a different game, a reactionary one that puts him/her at least a few steps behind you. Just be aware of where the advantages lie and what your objectives must be.
Dear Playa.
Just read the "book". It is well written and more importantly pretty much nails it spot on why I was "stuck" in B on ICCup playing zerg with around 250 APM and almost always better mechanics than all the players I played against in this rank. Wish I had been made aware of this back when I played.
I have a question for you since you seem very well articulated and good at pinpointing issues etc.. How would you describe in a little more detail why SC2 is inferior (to me at least and seems also to you and many other BW palyers) to BW and what would you see as the main pitfalls that Blizzard did with SC2?
On January 08 2012 23:34 Sawamura wrote: I like the idea you raise up , for example if your opponent isn't doing something to kill you , he's cooking up some other drastic plan to make your life miserable .Again I want to thank you for this awesome guide . It's recommended that any newbie who wants to be better at broodwar , has to read playa's fight to the top guide .
Thanks. I haven't played a game since uploading the FP vods, and my comp recently broke, but it's still great to see that there are players playing such a good game.
I think I cover a lot of basic stuff, but I also think there's so much neglect when it comes to simply basic stuff, that it, alone, can make all the difference in the world. If you can simply win the "information war," in-game and out-of-game, improving should be made much easier. When I say out-of-game information, to me it means just downloading a ton of replays and knowing the ranks of all the players you're watching; after you accumulate so many replays from various levels, you will begin to understand why players are certain ranks and know the "ingredients" to it. This makes it soooo much easier to go about reaching the next rank and so on. It takes some of the guess work out of it and the need to try to emulate a pro gamer in one giant leap.
In-game information.. think of StarCraft as chess.... if you're pieces are visible and your opponent's are invisible to you, who will win? How good of position will your pieces be in comparison to his? How likely are you to capitalize on your opportunities? You can see, by simply scouting your opponent frequently, you're really not even playing the same game.
You just have to be mindful of "am I utilizing every unit I have to its fullest?" Don't defend against imaginary threats when you can obtain the knowledge to know there's nothing to fear. Whoever has the most information is always able to make the most-informed decisions.
Both players go standard, you're saying "I'm going to try to win by having the better execution." If you go non standard, you obviously want to have crisp execution, but you're also aiming to take your opponent of his comfort zone. You want to play the same game you're accustomed to playing, while you're opponent feels like he is playing a different game, a reactionary one that puts him/her at least a few steps behind you. Just be aware of where the advantages lie and what your objectives must be.
Dear Playa.
Just read the "book". It is well written and more importantly pretty much nails it spot on why I was "stuck" in B on ICCup playing zerg with around 250 APM and almost always better mechanics than all the players I played against in this rank. Wish I had been made aware of this back when I played.
I have a question for you since you seem very well articulated and good at pinpointing issues etc.. How would you describe in a little more detail why SC2 is inferior (to me at least and seems also to you and many other BW palyers) to BW and what would you see as the main pitfalls that Blizzard did with SC2?
Oh gawd, I'd love to refute the well articulated comment, but I'm drawing a blank on how to do so :p Well, I guess that was easy Thanks for your comments, though. Hopefully, one day, I'll share that sentiment about the aforementioned.
For me, it's kinda hard to pinpoint exactly why SC 2 has a sense of inferiority when it comes to the viewing experience. Intuitively, there's just a sense of something is awry. If you sense excitement over 1 game but don't experience the same feeling in another game, perhaps it's a good starting point to remember what exactly was occurring the last time that feeling was elicited.
Today, I watched a SSL game. It reminded me of a time when I played lamerfly when he was like 44-0 on PGT. At the time, it was drawing attention because no one was really doing anything comparable. Although he was way better, overall, there were powerful tactics that could be used to still end up with a tense and winnable game, given proper execution. I did a dt drop with either 1 or 2 dts. Due to being able to drop a DT near a mine and pick it up before the explosion would hurt it, you could literally end up doing unlimited damage, in theory -- if there was any area not covered by a turret and there were no gollies or wraiths to interfere with your shuttle micro.
So, when I watched the SSL game, I noticed the Toss player was too far behind in expo timing to win, unless he nailed his execution of the dt/shuttle micro. There's multiple units like that, that they can either end up arriving to your base and promptly dying, or they can end up decimating your base. As long as you know what's possible in theory, how can you look away? The way the game is designed makes it end up being more thrilling for a spectator, as the game can go in any direction.
BW to me is a game of many battles, where you work to cultivate an advantage. It's like a continuous storm that both players have to find a way to weather. In that storm, there are a few game changing units that can either end up rivaling an "F 1 tornado" or they can end up being an "F 5" and end up completely changing the tide of the game. There's this perfect blend that always keeps things interesting.
In SC 2, it can end up being a "1 round fight that happens to end in round 5." Someone says," I think my composition is better than yours. I'm ready to roll the dice." There's your climax. I hope you enjoyed the build up. Time to congratulate your eventual winner. You want to see fighting happening more frequently and on more fronts and less "wham bam. thank you, mam..."
In SC 2, with there being more units that hard counter others, it obviously makes it more about being on the right side of that and not making too many of any 1 unit and opening yourself up to the possibility of being hard countered. The question of "how can I be cost efficient versus "x" was a lot harder of a question to answer in BW. Eg., if you make a turret ring around your base to stop a reaver drop, and you didn't get your expo drastically before your opponent, it doesn't matter that you stopped it. It was always about stopping things, but "at what cost." I think questions like that led to a lot of evolution in game play and a more challenging game. So far, in SC 2, I've only really asked myself that kinda question when it comes to mutas in p vs z.
As it's impossible for me to be concise, which I would be if I were articulate I'll try to wrap this up. I think one of the biggest culprits in "boring SC 2" is the infestor. When you think of casters going crazy over someone fungaling a pack of marines, you realize something is wrong. Note: I have no problems facing infestors. I think they're ez pz in 99 out of 100 scenarios. But, when you think at pivotal game changing moments in SC 2, a lot of times a noob is at home and saying, put me in that spot and I could do the same freaking thing; it's hard for people to find things amazing or awe inducing when they are fully capable of doing the same.
When I see someone micro'ing a reaver at a ridiculous level, while macro'ing and telling workers to mine, I think who is this supernatural person. There is no confusion. I know I'm not watching one of my games. I'm watching a god damn pro gamer. It feels epic and so sick. When you think of stuff like auto mine and MBS in an isolated manner, you can tell yourself that's fine. And, maybe it is, but these small things end up adding up, and this culmination of things is something that's hard to not be mesmerized by unless you're a pro gamer.
How many watch pro sports? If I feel I can do what they're doing, I don't want to watch it. I'm going to be bitter that I'm not doing it. SC 2, along with less entertainment value, it just doesn't have that feel of seeing something that only a select few people are capable of, whether it's the case or not. It's like watching Pro gamers play a game on medium difficulty. There's this feeling like a pro gamer should be battling on the hardest setting and under the craziest conditions. That's what separates a pro from an average joe. At least, that's a feeling at times.
The caveat to all of this is, is that you really have to think about what's possible in theory and how compelling that is; Look back on BW at the first pro gamers. Most would say something like they are C- today and I don't know if I could watch that level of play... If your feelings are relative to what you know and the level of play simply isn't high at the moment, with no fault of that being to the game, then it's simply normal to not be that impressed, given the high level of play you're accustomed to seeing in BW.
Ultimately, something we might consider a pitfall won't be viewed in the same light for Blizzard. Their goal is to maximize making money. They saw Koreans own us like we were nothing in BW. If their alterations lead to a less entertaining game but they still find ways to maximize their earnings through it, then they have succeeded. It's all about perspective. And, whether I come off as doom and gloom or not, I am enjoying HotS; whether that's due to novelty or winning games, I dunno, but I'm content with playing HotS. Whether viewing WoL is great or not, as long as there is BW to view, at least I have (at least should) that choice. A lot of people want to have the successors become as good as BW, but they forget they already have BW.
If the worst case scenario for SC 2 is that it ends up being a better version of chess, then I could probably live with that. Anything where there are rarely ever ties, let alone 40% of games, is an improvement in my eyes. Not every game has to be the same or else it kinda defeats the purpose of being new. All I can say is that I prefer watching BW, but that could simply be a preference.
Edit: Creep spread in t vs z makes the mu almost unbearable for me to even try to watch. It seems to flirt with being map hack and strikes me as something that's pretty hard to balance. I also can't tolerate seeing dropships roaming around the map willy nilly. These two infuriate me more than anything. Maybe the zerg player should use corrupters as scourges, I dunno. I just can't handle watching it. The infestor, whether it's imbal or not, it seems to serve too many roles. I think HotS is fixing that, though.
On November 28 2012 23:21 sabas123 wrote: nice post lol, makes be kinda nostalgic to some old bw vs sc2 threads lol.
playa, do you think vods are yust a good of a tool as replay for learning purpose?
Starting out, I think replays are far more valuable, as you have the option to copy builds to a tee: it's obviously a lot easier to miss all of the nuances and end up doing something considerably different, if you're new'ish and are just going from a VOD. The better you get, the better you should be at "filling in the blanks," or at least already accustomed to trial and error.
Ideally, everything would be available in replay format, as not only is it hard to go wrong with a replay, but a lot of times when we watch a vod, we're watching it for entertainment, not so much taking notes.
For me, for the longest of time, I don't think anything compared to watching a replay. But, much later on, I still think watching a sea[shield] VOD had the biggest impact on my play. You're not going to find that as a replay, so a vod can still be very beneficial, and you simply don't always get a choice. VODS of pro games are obviously more readily available.
In t vs z, fighting against pro gamers muta micro was absurd. So many turrets to be made and so much stress over the positioning of everything. Also, knowing how deadly mutas can be in the hands of someone with insane micro, it made the spire plus hydra den build so annoying. You had to make some turrets to respect the possibility, and then they might just end up going pure lurker. Really obnoxious and you always give them an advantage from the get-go.
You take that seminal idea of not needing medics/stim/range or valkeries to defend against mutas, and you don't just want to say "I want to copy this to a tee," you want to find out just how far you can take it once one of your preconceived notions of what isn't possible has been shattered.
So, in short, it largely depends on where you're are at as a player to how much you can get out of a replay versus a vod. But, you can never go wrong with having the replay. I think day[9] said that Froz watched a first person vod of a pro gamer and then decided "I' can do that/I'm going to do that," and then just went out and started playing that fast. That must be nice, right? The more information you can take in, be it a replay or a vod, the better. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking everything you see is optimal, just because it's a pro game. I still can't get over for how long people were using 2 rax fast expo in BW. Once people see something enough, there's a tendency to just stop thinking about it and accept it as being how it's supposed to be. For that reason, building off ideas from vods or incorporating small things is more than sufficient, more times than not.
On January 08 2012 23:34 Sawamura wrote: I like the idea you raise up , for example if your opponent isn't doing something to kill you , he's cooking up some other drastic plan to make your life miserable .Again I want to thank you for this awesome guide . It's recommended that any newbie who wants to be better at broodwar , has to read playa's fight to the top guide .
Thanks. I haven't played a game since uploading the FP vods, and my comp recently broke, but it's still great to see that there are players playing such a good game.
I think I cover a lot of basic stuff, but I also think there's so much neglect when it comes to simply basic stuff, that it, alone, can make all the difference in the world. If you can simply win the "information war," in-game and out-of-game, improving should be made much easier. When I say out-of-game information, to me it means just downloading a ton of replays and knowing the ranks of all the players you're watching; after you accumulate so many replays from various levels, you will begin to understand why players are certain ranks and know the "ingredients" to it. This makes it soooo much easier to go about reaching the next rank and so on. It takes some of the guess work out of it and the need to try to emulate a pro gamer in one giant leap.
In-game information.. think of StarCraft as chess.... if you're pieces are visible and your opponent's are invisible to you, who will win? How good of position will your pieces be in comparison to his? How likely are you to capitalize on your opportunities? You can see, by simply scouting your opponent frequently, you're really not even playing the same game.
You just have to be mindful of "am I utilizing every unit I have to its fullest?" Don't defend against imaginary threats when you can obtain the knowledge to know there's nothing to fear. Whoever has the most information is always able to make the most-informed decisions.
Both players go standard, you're saying "I'm going to try to win by having the better execution." If you go non standard, you obviously want to have crisp execution, but you're also aiming to take your opponent of his comfort zone. You want to play the same game you're accustomed to playing, while you're opponent feels like he is playing a different game, a reactionary one that puts him/her at least a few steps behind you. Just be aware of where the advantages lie and what your objectives must be.
Dear Playa.
Just read the "book". It is well written and more importantly pretty much nails it spot on why I was "stuck" in B on ICCup playing zerg with around 250 APM and almost always better mechanics than all the players I played against in this rank. Wish I had been made aware of this back when I played.
I have a question for you since you seem very well articulated and good at pinpointing issues etc.. How would you describe in a little more detail why SC2 is inferior (to me at least and seems also to you and many other BW palyers) to BW and what would you see as the main pitfalls that Blizzard did with SC2?
Oh gawd, I'd love to refute the well articulated comment, but I'm drawing a blank on how to do so :p Well, I guess that was easy Thanks for your comments, though. Hopefully, one day, I'll share that sentiment about the aforementioned.
For me, it's kinda hard to pinpoint exactly why SC 2 has a sense of inferiority when it comes to the viewing experience. Intuitively, there's just a sense of something is awry. If you sense excitement over 1 game but don't experience the same feeling in another game, perhaps it's a good starting point to remember what exactly was occurring the last time that feeling was elicited.
Today, I watched a SSL game. It reminded me of a time when I played lamerfly when he was like 44-0 on PGT. At the time, it was drawing attention because no one was really doing anything comparable. Although he was way better, overall, there were powerful tactics that could be used to still end up with a tense and winnable game, given proper execution. I did a dt drop with either 1 or 2 dts. Due to being able to drop a DT near a mine and pick it up before the explosion would hurt it, you could literally end up doing unlimited damage, in theory -- if there was any area not covered by a turret and there were no gollies or wraiths to interfere with your shuttle micro.
So, when I watched the SSL game, I noticed the Toss player was too far behind in expo timing to win, unless he nailed his execution of the dt/shuttle micro. There's multiple units like that, that they can either end up arriving to your base and promptly dying, or they can end up decimating your base. As long as you know what's possible in theory, how can you look away? The way the game is designed makes it end up being more thrilling for a spectator, as the game can go in any direction.
BW to me is a game of many battles, where you work to cultivate an advantage. It's like a continuous storm that both players have to find a way to weather. In that storm, there are a few game changing units that can either end up rivaling an "F 1 tornado" or they can end up being an "F 5" and end up completely changing the tide of the game. There's this perfect blend that always keeps things interesting.
In SC 2, it can end up being a "1 round fight that happens to end in round 5." Someone says," I think my composition is better than yours. I'm ready to roll the dice." There's your climax. I hope you enjoyed the build up. Time to congratulate your eventual winner. You want to see fighting happening more frequently and on more fronts and less "wham bam. thank you, mam..."
In SC 2, with there being more units that hard counter others, it obviously makes it more about being on the right side of that and not making too many of any 1 unit and opening yourself up to the possibility of being hard countered. The question of "how can I be cost efficient versus "x" was a lot harder of a question to answer in BW. Eg., if you make a turret ring around your base to stop a reaver drop, and you didn't get your expo drastically before your opponent, it doesn't matter that you stopped it. It was always about stopping things, but "at what cost." I think questions like that led to a lot of evolution in game play and a more challenging game. So far, in SC 2, I've only really asked myself that kinda question when it comes to mutas in p vs z.
As it's impossible for me to be concise, which I would be if I were articulate I'll try to wrap this up. I think one of the biggest culprits in "boring SC 2" is the infestor. When you think of casters going crazy over someone fungaling a pack of marines, you realize something is wrong. Note: I have no problems facing infestors. I think they're ez pz in 99 out of 100 scenarios. But, when you think at pivotal game changing moments in SC 2, a lot of times a noob is at home and saying, put me in that spot and I could do the same freaking thing; it's hard for people to find things amazing or awe inducing when they are fully capable of doing the same.
When I see someone micro'ing a reaver at a ridiculous level, while macro'ing and telling workers to mine, I think who is this supernatural person. There is no confusion. I know I'm not watching one of my games. I'm watching a god damn pro gamer. It feels epic and so sick. When you think of stuff like auto mine and MBS in an isolated manner, you can tell yourself that's fine. And, maybe it is, but these small things end up adding up, and this culmination of things is something that's hard to not be mesmerized by unless you're a pro gamer.
How many watch pro sports? If I feel I can do what they're doing, I don't want to watch it. I'm going to be bitter that I'm not doing it. SC 2, along with less entertainment value, it just doesn't have that feel of seeing something that only a select few people are capable of, whether it's the case or not. It's like watching Pro gamers play a game on medium difficulty. There's this feeling like a pro gamer should be battling on the hardest setting and under the craziest conditions. That's what separates a pro from an average joe. At least, that's a feeling at times.
The caveat to all of this is, is that you really have to think about what's possible in theory and how compelling that is; Look back on BW at the first pro gamers. Most would say something like they are C- today and I don't know if I could watch that level of play... If your feelings are relative to what you know and the level of play simply isn't high at the moment, with no fault of that being to the game, then it's simply normal to not be that impressed, given the high level of play you're accustomed to seeing in BW.
Ultimately, something we might consider a pitfall won't be viewed in the same light for Blizzard. Their goal is to maximize making money. They saw Koreans own us like we were nothing in BW. If their alterations lead to a less entertaining game but they still find ways to maximize their earnings through it, then they have succeeded. It's all about perspective. And, whether I come off as doom and gloom or not, I am enjoying HotS; whether that's due to novelty or winning games, I dunno, but I'm content with playing HotS. Whether viewing WoL is great or not, as long as there is BW to view, at least I have (at least should) that choice. A lot of people want to have the successors become as good as BW, but they forget they already have BW.
If the worst case scenario for SC 2 is that it ends up being a better version of chess, then I could probably live with that. Anything where there are rarely ever ties, let alone 40% of games, is an improvement in my eyes. Not every game has to be the same or else it kinda defeats the purpose of being new. All I can say is that I prefer watching BW, but that could simply be a preference.
Edit: Creep spread in t vs z makes the mu almost unbearable for me to even try to watch. It seems to flirt with being map hack and strikes me as something that's pretty hard to balance. I also can't tolerate seeing dropships roaming around the map willy nilly. These two infuriate me more than anything. Maybe the zerg player should use corrupters as scourges, I dunno. I just can't handle watching it. The infestor, whether it's imbal or not, it seems to serve too many roles. I think HotS is fixing that, though.
it was completely random chance that brought me here but wow, that is really well-drawn picture of my thought process about sc2. i just had to sign in to say that^^
On November 28 2012 23:21 sabas123 wrote: nice post lol, makes be kinda nostalgic to some old bw vs sc2 threads lol.
playa, do you think vods are yust a good of a tool as replay for learning purpose?
Starting out, I think replays are far more valuable, as you have the option to copy builds to a tee: it's obviously a lot easier to miss all of the nuances and end up doing something considerably different, if you're new'ish and are just going from a VOD. The better you get, the better you should be at "filling in the blanks," or at least already accustomed to trial and error.
Ideally, everything would be available in replay format, as not only is it hard to go wrong with a replay, but a lot of times when we watch a vod, we're watching it for entertainment, not so much taking notes.
For me, for the longest of time, I don't think anything compared to watching a replay. But, much later on, I still think watching a sea[shield] VOD had the biggest impact on my play. You're not going to find that as a replay, so a vod can still be very beneficial, and you simply don't always get a choice. VODS of pro games are obviously more readily available.
In t vs z, fighting against pro gamers muta micro was absurd. So many turrets to be made and so much stress over the positioning of everything. Also, knowing how deadly mutas can be in the hands of someone with insane micro, it made the spire plus hydra den build so annoying. You had to make some turrets to respect the possibility, and then they might just end up going pure lurker. Really obnoxious and you always give them an advantage from the get-go.
You take that seminal idea of not needing medics/stim/range or valkeries to defend against mutas, and you don't just want to say "I want to copy this to a tee," you want to find out just how far you can take it once one of your preconceived notions of what isn't possible has been shattered.
So, in short, it largely depends on where you're are at as a player to how much you can get out of a replay versus a vod. But, you can never go wrong with having the replay. I think day[9] said that Froz watched a first person vod of a pro gamer and then decided "I' can do that/I'm going to do that," and then just went out and started playing that fast. That must be nice, right? The more information you can take in, be it a replay or a vod, the better. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking everything you see is optimal, just because it's a pro game. I still can't get over for how long people were using 2 rax fast expo in BW. Once people see something enough, there's a tendency to just stop thinking about it and accept it as being how it's supposed to be. For that reason, building off ideas from vods or incorporating small things is more than sufficient, more times than not.
i find it so easy to learn the general outline of a mu yust by watching vods, A: becouse the amount of S class players vods (tbls) is yust so high and easy to find, also becouse its so easy to go through a bunch of them realy quickly. and ofc with the potantial of skiping large chunks and rewinding.
but isn't it much more easier to learn these little things through replays??? assuming your good enough to find them on your own and doesn't need to hope the observer going to take a shot of it^^
and about that froz thing, i can totaly relate to it lol, it helps so much to DETERMINE your goal and KNOW you gonna be that good or than fast or what ever.
realy cool to see that you still give tips to people, do you still play. ifso whats your rank.
On November 28 2012 23:21 sabas123 wrote: nice post lol, makes be kinda nostalgic to some old bw vs sc2 threads lol.
playa, do you think vods are yust a good of a tool as replay for learning purpose?
Starting out, I think replays are far more valuable, as you have the option to copy builds to a tee: it's obviously a lot easier to miss all of the nuances and end up doing something considerably different, if you're new'ish and are just going from a VOD. The better you get, the better you should be at "filling in the blanks," or at least already accustomed to trial and error.
Ideally, everything would be available in replay format, as not only is it hard to go wrong with a replay, but a lot of times when we watch a vod, we're watching it for entertainment, not so much taking notes.
For me, for the longest of time, I don't think anything compared to watching a replay. But, much later on, I still think watching a sea[shield] VOD had the biggest impact on my play. You're not going to find that as a replay, so a vod can still be very beneficial, and you simply don't always get a choice. VODS of pro games are obviously more readily available.
In t vs z, fighting against pro gamers muta micro was absurd. So many turrets to be made and so much stress over the positioning of everything. Also, knowing how deadly mutas can be in the hands of someone with insane micro, it made the spire plus hydra den build so annoying. You had to make some turrets to respect the possibility, and then they might just end up going pure lurker. Really obnoxious and you always give them an advantage from the get-go.
You take that seminal idea of not needing medics/stim/range or valkeries to defend against mutas, and you don't just want to say "I want to copy this to a tee," you want to find out just how far you can take it once one of your preconceived notions of what isn't possible has been shattered.
So, in short, it largely depends on where you're are at as a player to how much you can get out of a replay versus a vod. But, you can never go wrong with having the replay. I think day[9] said that Froz watched a first person vod of a pro gamer and then decided "I' can do that/I'm going to do that," and then just went out and started playing that fast. That must be nice, right? The more information you can take in, be it a replay or a vod, the better. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking everything you see is optimal, just because it's a pro game. I still can't get over for how long people were using 2 rax fast expo in BW. Once people see something enough, there's a tendency to just stop thinking about it and accept it as being how it's supposed to be. For that reason, building off ideas from vods or incorporating small things is more than sufficient, more times than not.
i find it so easy to learn the general outline of a mu yust by watching vods, A: becouse the amount of S class players vods (tbls) is yust so high and easy to find, also becouse its so easy to go through a bunch of them realy quickly. and ofc with the potantial of skiping large chunks and rewinding.
but isn't it much more easier to learn these little things through replays??? assuming your good enough to find them on your own and doesn't need to hope the observer going to take a shot of it^^
and about that froz thing, i can totaly relate to it lol, it helps so much to DETERMINE your goal and KNOW you gonna be that good or than fast or what ever.
realy cool to see that you still give tips to people, do you still play. ifso whats your rank.
100% correct. In SC 2, VODS are probably a lot more beneficial than in BW, because they are in English. In BW, I always muted the English ones that weren't casted by Tastosis.
Anytime you're trying to emulate a pro style and a recent replay from a top pro gamer is released/leaked, your head should explode just a little bit. I don't want to say it's the holy grail or anything, but it's kinda a big deal
For my first year playing or w/e, I wouldn't be surprised if I watched more replays than anyone. Whether they were 1 rank above me or w/e, I always found them helpful. I would check some Korean replay site every day. Like there would always be a few replays from a Korean ladder. I remember always awaiting more t vs z replays. It made 0 sense, though, because there were never any deviations that I remember Well, at least I made sure I didn't miss any changes in the metagame.
I haven't played a BW game in a long time. I stopped playing games all together for a while. I started playing SC 2 a couple months ago. Currently playing HotS; rank 2 in masters atm. I'm pretty sure my win rate versus GM is my highest win rate versus any league. It's very, very peculiar. I've found SC 2 to be weird in that the affect of the league doesn't really seem to mean much. Ie., if you're weak or strong against a particular strategy, that's the biggest factor in whether you will win or not. Obviously, as long as the ranks are within reason. Bronze going to be bronze. That element seems a lot more accentuated than anything I remember in BW, outside of the proxy BBS build.
Hey playa, nice read. I think I recognize your name from the first TSL, you laddered quite well there if I'm not mistaken
On November 25 2012 11:24 playa wrote: :o I was hoping this thread was dead and would remain so! Due to megaupload going down and my prior computer having "died," I haven't had the book myself. Ultimately, anytime someone does something, a judgement is rendered. Anytime your anxiety is increased, you'd like to think there's something to either help offset it or make it worthwhile.
I feel sheepish and treasonous or something I honestly never planned on playing SC 2. I unexpectedly found myself with a week off, and I really wanted to get a game. I really wanted to get a hockey game, as I just think it's the best sport and love the hockey video games. But, eventually, I was like "I can't rationalize getting a PS 3 just so I can get 1 game, with no intentions of getting anything else." Thus, I settled on trying out SC 2.
I can't stress how big of a thing it is to see a lot of tournaments in SC 2 that accommodate players, who qualify for their events, with flights to their events. In WCG this year, in SC 2, you saw people winning their national WCG finals and then turning down going to the World Finals. Personally, if I had any aspirations of being competitive, I would probably choose w/e game that gave me less reservations about choosing to advance on after winning/qualifying.
I'm currently playing HotS and I find it fun/interesting/new challenge, but be it SC 2 or HotS, I pretty much find every mu but p vs p (more times than not) to be trash, or at least far inferior to watch to their BW "counterparts." It's really sad almost to think how much worse of an experience it is to view SC matches now. And to couple that with SC 2 basically replacing the BW show, it feels wrong to some extent.
To me it just seems like it should perhaps be some kinda egregious offense anytime an inferior product ends up completely supplanting a superior product, that the current product can only hope of becoming. Ultimately, there's a sense of that's not how the world should ever work; that's simply our world revolving around money and Blizzard being out of ideas on how to create more money inflow from BW.
Anytime incentive is lost to cater to people that are simply playing the superior game, then you do have to worry about the inevitable "death" of that game. I frankly enjoy playing SC 2 and welcome the change of pace/differences, but you'd hate to think you're contributing to the death of something that is "objectively" better. At the bare minimum, they should co exist. The superior product should never fade into oblivion, even if the successor has promise of blossoming into a really amazing game. If BW fades away, it should only be after a successor has proven to be a better game; not simply a game with the most potential for money to be had.
Anyways, all I'm really trying to say is that I really enjoy seeing that there are still people playing BW and/or care about the game. 40k people with no ambitions of being a pro gamer could watch a 30 minute turtle fest, with broodlord, infestor, or they could watch a real game, with entertainment value, granted there was still a BW scene to watch. Why are we subjecting ourselves to watch something that is clearly not as good? I don't know the answers. I just know I have a lot of respect for people that say, "I like this. I know there is more value here. You're not going to get me to accept less value for no reason without substance."
It's great to see and hopefully BW can have a resurgence of some kind, even though it probably will take outside forces (not Blizzard).
This is so true. I honestly just feel the same way but I don't have the ability to put it in words like you do. BW really doesn't deserve to vanish one day.
On November 28 2012 23:21 sabas123 wrote: nice post lol, makes be kinda nostalgic to some old bw vs sc2 threads lol.
playa, do you think vods are yust a good of a tool as replay for learning purpose?
Starting out, I think replays are far more valuable, as you have the option to copy builds to a tee: it's obviously a lot easier to miss all of the nuances and end up doing something considerably different, if you're new'ish and are just going from a VOD. The better you get, the better you should be at "filling in the blanks," or at least already accustomed to trial and error.
Ideally, everything would be available in replay format, as not only is it hard to go wrong with a replay, but a lot of times when we watch a vod, we're watching it for entertainment, not so much taking notes.
For me, for the longest of time, I don't think anything compared to watching a replay. But, much later on, I still think watching a sea[shield] VOD had the biggest impact on my play. You're not going to find that as a replay, so a vod can still be very beneficial, and you simply don't always get a choice. VODS of pro games are obviously more readily available.
In t vs z, fighting against pro gamers muta micro was absurd. So many turrets to be made and so much stress over the positioning of everything. Also, knowing how deadly mutas can be in the hands of someone with insane micro, it made the spire plus hydra den build so annoying. You had to make some turrets to respect the possibility, and then they might just end up going pure lurker. Really obnoxious and you always give them an advantage from the get-go.
You take that seminal idea of not needing medics/stim/range or valkeries to defend against mutas, and you don't just want to say "I want to copy this to a tee," you want to find out just how far you can take it once one of your preconceived notions of what isn't possible has been shattered.
So, in short, it largely depends on where you're are at as a player to how much you can get out of a replay versus a vod. But, you can never go wrong with having the replay. I think day[9] said that Froz watched a first person vod of a pro gamer and then decided "I' can do that/I'm going to do that," and then just went out and started playing that fast. That must be nice, right? The more information you can take in, be it a replay or a vod, the better. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking everything you see is optimal, just because it's a pro game. I still can't get over for how long people were using 2 rax fast expo in BW. Once people see something enough, there's a tendency to just stop thinking about it and accept it as being how it's supposed to be. For that reason, building off ideas from vods or incorporating small things is more than sufficient, more times than not.
i find it so easy to learn the general outline of a mu yust by watching vods, A: becouse the amount of S class players vods (tbls) is yust so high and easy to find, also becouse its so easy to go through a bunch of them realy quickly. and ofc with the potantial of skiping large chunks and rewinding.
but isn't it much more easier to learn these little things through replays??? assuming your good enough to find them on your own and doesn't need to hope the observer going to take a shot of it^^
and about that froz thing, i can totaly relate to it lol, it helps so much to DETERMINE your goal and KNOW you gonna be that good or than fast or what ever.
realy cool to see that you still give tips to people, do you still play. ifso whats your rank.
100% correct. In SC 2, VODS are probably a lot more beneficial than in BW, because they are in English. In BW, I always muted the English ones that weren't casted by Tastosis.
Anytime you're trying to emulate a pro style and a recent replay from a top pro gamer is released/leaked, your head should explode just a little bit. I don't want to say it's the holy grail or anything, but it's kinda a big deal
For my first year playing or w/e, I wouldn't be surprised if I watched more replays than anyone. Whether they were 1 rank above me or w/e, I always found them helpful. I would check some Korean replay site every day. Like there would always be a few replays from a Korean ladder. I remember always awaiting more t vs z replays. It made 0 sense, though, because there were never any deviations that I remember Well, at least I made sure I didn't miss any changes in the metagame.
I haven't played a BW game in a long time. I stopped playing games all together for a while. I started playing SC 2 a couple months ago. Currently playing HotS; rank 2 in masters atm. I'm pretty sure my win rate versus GM is my highest win rate versus any league. It's very, very peculiar. I've found SC 2 to be weird in that the affect of the league doesn't really seem to mean much. Ie., if you're weak or strong against a particular strategy, that's the biggest factor in whether you will win or not. Obviously, as long as the ranks are within reason. Bronze going to be bronze. That element seems a lot more accentuated than anything I remember in BW, outside of the proxy BBS build.
does it realy matter if there is commentary? i know that it really really helps if a good player talks (tastosis) but its still good to learn from no matter who speaks it.
On November 28 2012 23:21 sabas123 wrote: nice post lol, makes be kinda nostalgic to some old bw vs sc2 threads lol.
playa, do you think vods are yust a good of a tool as replay for learning purpose?
Starting out, I think replays are far more valuable, as you have the option to copy builds to a tee: it's obviously a lot easier to miss all of the nuances and end up doing something considerably different, if you're new'ish and are just going from a VOD. The better you get, the better you should be at "filling in the blanks," or at least already accustomed to trial and error.
Ideally, everything would be available in replay format, as not only is it hard to go wrong with a replay, but a lot of times when we watch a vod, we're watching it for entertainment, not so much taking notes.
For me, for the longest of time, I don't think anything compared to watching a replay. But, much later on, I still think watching a sea[shield] VOD had the biggest impact on my play. You're not going to find that as a replay, so a vod can still be very beneficial, and you simply don't always get a choice. VODS of pro games are obviously more readily available.
In t vs z, fighting against pro gamers muta micro was absurd. So many turrets to be made and so much stress over the positioning of everything. Also, knowing how deadly mutas can be in the hands of someone with insane micro, it made the spire plus hydra den build so annoying. You had to make some turrets to respect the possibility, and then they might just end up going pure lurker. Really obnoxious and you always give them an advantage from the get-go.
You take that seminal idea of not needing medics/stim/range or valkeries to defend against mutas, and you don't just want to say "I want to copy this to a tee," you want to find out just how far you can take it once one of your preconceived notions of what isn't possible has been shattered.
So, in short, it largely depends on where you're are at as a player to how much you can get out of a replay versus a vod. But, you can never go wrong with having the replay. I think day[9] said that Froz watched a first person vod of a pro gamer and then decided "I' can do that/I'm going to do that," and then just went out and started playing that fast. That must be nice, right? The more information you can take in, be it a replay or a vod, the better. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking everything you see is optimal, just because it's a pro game. I still can't get over for how long people were using 2 rax fast expo in BW. Once people see something enough, there's a tendency to just stop thinking about it and accept it as being how it's supposed to be. For that reason, building off ideas from vods or incorporating small things is more than sufficient, more times than not.
i find it so easy to learn the general outline of a mu yust by watching vods, A: becouse the amount of S class players vods (tbls) is yust so high and easy to find, also becouse its so easy to go through a bunch of them realy quickly. and ofc with the potantial of skiping large chunks and rewinding.
but isn't it much more easier to learn these little things through replays??? assuming your good enough to find them on your own and doesn't need to hope the observer going to take a shot of it^^
and about that froz thing, i can totaly relate to it lol, it helps so much to DETERMINE your goal and KNOW you gonna be that good or than fast or what ever.
realy cool to see that you still give tips to people, do you still play. ifso whats your rank.
100% correct. In SC 2, VODS are probably a lot more beneficial than in BW, because they are in English. In BW, I always muted the English ones that weren't casted by Tastosis.
Anytime you're trying to emulate a pro style and a recent replay from a top pro gamer is released/leaked, your head should explode just a little bit. I don't want to say it's the holy grail or anything, but it's kinda a big deal
For my first year playing or w/e, I wouldn't be surprised if I watched more replays than anyone. Whether they were 1 rank above me or w/e, I always found them helpful. I would check some Korean replay site every day. Like there would always be a few replays from a Korean ladder. I remember always awaiting more t vs z replays. It made 0 sense, though, because there were never any deviations that I remember Well, at least I made sure I didn't miss any changes in the metagame.
I haven't played a BW game in a long time. I stopped playing games all together for a while. I started playing SC 2 a couple months ago. Currently playing HotS; rank 2 in masters atm. I'm pretty sure my win rate versus GM is my highest win rate versus any league. It's very, very peculiar. I've found SC 2 to be weird in that the affect of the league doesn't really seem to mean much. Ie., if you're weak or strong against a particular strategy, that's the biggest factor in whether you will win or not. Obviously, as long as the ranks are within reason. Bronze going to be bronze. That element seems a lot more accentuated than anything I remember in BW, outside of the proxy BBS build.
does it realy matter if there is commentary? i know that it really really helps if a good player talks (tastosis) but its still good to learn from no matter who speaks it.
I wish I were a mod so I could ban/warn you. You know why? Because I disagree with you. You're lucky I'm not a mod and that this isn't a SC 2 thread. You don't know anything about serious business.
Perhaps I'm biased in that I never really heard English casting until I wasn't a "noob." The majority of the casters kinda struck me as people that you would find in the D channel, granted they hadn't given up playing yet. I think it was more of simply a play-by-play kinda thing, which is fine, but some of them had voices that were just so distracting to me... After I stopped playing BW, I heard Sayle cast some, and I was super shocked, as I enjoyed his casting. So, as with most things, it depends. I honestly think, more times than not, you would be better off listening to Koreans screaming: having a chance to have some of that passion being instilled in you surpasses the chance of having the English casters' knowledge imparted in you. I love those guys.
Obvious choice is obvious.
Blog mode enabled because I can't follow guidelines if I can't be bothered to read them. I'm rank 1 masters in HotS and should be a win or two in a row from getting promoted to GM (3 open spots atm and the last person I saw got into GM was in that point range). I hope everyone keeps playing WoL, so I can preface everything by saying "Just so you know, I'm GM." I surmise you could say w/e, trolling or not, after that, and the plat mods would have to go "well he said he was GM... I have to consider the merits even though that explanation is the worst I've ever seen." One day, perhaps in a dream, I'll get that license to post in a SC 2 thread, where business is always serious. I'm pretty sure I'll be banned first, though.
I was trapped/set up. How can a help thread versus mutalisks in p vs z (SC 2) be allowed. I'm telling you, every time I watch a stream (usually a featured player who is GM), they are getting obliterated by mutalisk strategies. They go pure stalkers, auto loss. They go ht, the zerg player happens to have a mouse that is still functioning... I guess the correct answer to a help thread of that sort is supposed to be, it's imbalanced and you're doomed. Or you're supposed to say "do this, the thing that you watch lose 24/7. It might not ever work in practice, but god damn it worked in a theory session." Give me a break.
W/e happened to being able to say "I don't know why it works... I'm not a scientist. I just noticed it tends to work." Let me try to be a scientist so you can get some bonus strategy for another game. Why does a composition of 2 void rays, 1-2 archons and stalkers do decently against mutas? I'm going to go out on a limb and say, because if the mutas get close enough to try to snipe your void rays, your archon(s) gets pot shots. Conversely, if the mutas target other units, then the void rays end up being charged and doing considerably more damage. Plus, if you have void rays, you basically end up with something that serves as mobile cannons, saving you from actually having to build more than 1 cannon at any location until you have your third up and running. Thus, you don't end up falling behind economically and not even being able to base race if you need to because your army is inferior and couldn't even win a straight up fight.
Bill Nye the science guy strikes again. Great advice. Don't let anyone tell you differently. And if they do, let them know that I've casted a game. I haven't, but mods probably have. And that's why you listen to Koreans screaming. Where do the jokes end and the for realz begin is anyone's guess.
On November 28 2012 23:21 sabas123 wrote: nice post lol, makes be kinda nostalgic to some old bw vs sc2 threads lol.
playa, do you think vods are yust a good of a tool as replay for learning purpose?
Starting out, I think replays are far more valuable, as you have the option to copy builds to a tee: it's obviously a lot easier to miss all of the nuances and end up doing something considerably different, if you're new'ish and are just going from a VOD. The better you get, the better you should be at "filling in the blanks," or at least already accustomed to trial and error.
Ideally, everything would be available in replay format, as not only is it hard to go wrong with a replay, but a lot of times when we watch a vod, we're watching it for entertainment, not so much taking notes.
For me, for the longest of time, I don't think anything compared to watching a replay. But, much later on, I still think watching a sea[shield] VOD had the biggest impact on my play. You're not going to find that as a replay, so a vod can still be very beneficial, and you simply don't always get a choice. VODS of pro games are obviously more readily available.
In t vs z, fighting against pro gamers muta micro was absurd. So many turrets to be made and so much stress over the positioning of everything. Also, knowing how deadly mutas can be in the hands of someone with insane micro, it made the spire plus hydra den build so annoying. You had to make some turrets to respect the possibility, and then they might just end up going pure lurker. Really obnoxious and you always give them an advantage from the get-go.
You take that seminal idea of not needing medics/stim/range or valkeries to defend against mutas, and you don't just want to say "I want to copy this to a tee," you want to find out just how far you can take it once one of your preconceived notions of what isn't possible has been shattered.
So, in short, it largely depends on where you're are at as a player to how much you can get out of a replay versus a vod. But, you can never go wrong with having the replay. I think day[9] said that Froz watched a first person vod of a pro gamer and then decided "I' can do that/I'm going to do that," and then just went out and started playing that fast. That must be nice, right? The more information you can take in, be it a replay or a vod, the better. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking everything you see is optimal, just because it's a pro game. I still can't get over for how long people were using 2 rax fast expo in BW. Once people see something enough, there's a tendency to just stop thinking about it and accept it as being how it's supposed to be. For that reason, building off ideas from vods or incorporating small things is more than sufficient, more times than not.
i find it so easy to learn the general outline of a mu yust by watching vods, A: becouse the amount of S class players vods (tbls) is yust so high and easy to find, also becouse its so easy to go through a bunch of them realy quickly. and ofc with the potantial of skiping large chunks and rewinding.
but isn't it much more easier to learn these little things through replays??? assuming your good enough to find them on your own and doesn't need to hope the observer going to take a shot of it^^
and about that froz thing, i can totaly relate to it lol, it helps so much to DETERMINE your goal and KNOW you gonna be that good or than fast or what ever.
realy cool to see that you still give tips to people, do you still play. ifso whats your rank.
100% correct. In SC 2, VODS are probably a lot more beneficial than in BW, because they are in English. In BW, I always muted the English ones that weren't casted by Tastosis.
Anytime you're trying to emulate a pro style and a recent replay from a top pro gamer is released/leaked, your head should explode just a little bit. I don't want to say it's the holy grail or anything, but it's kinda a big deal
For my first year playing or w/e, I wouldn't be surprised if I watched more replays than anyone. Whether they were 1 rank above me or w/e, I always found them helpful. I would check some Korean replay site every day. Like there would always be a few replays from a Korean ladder. I remember always awaiting more t vs z replays. It made 0 sense, though, because there were never any deviations that I remember Well, at least I made sure I didn't miss any changes in the metagame.
I haven't played a BW game in a long time. I stopped playing games all together for a while. I started playing SC 2 a couple months ago. Currently playing HotS; rank 2 in masters atm. I'm pretty sure my win rate versus GM is my highest win rate versus any league. It's very, very peculiar. I've found SC 2 to be weird in that the affect of the league doesn't really seem to mean much. Ie., if you're weak or strong against a particular strategy, that's the biggest factor in whether you will win or not. Obviously, as long as the ranks are within reason. Bronze going to be bronze. That element seems a lot more accentuated than anything I remember in BW, outside of the proxy BBS build.
does it realy matter if there is commentary? i know that it really really helps if a good player talks (tastosis) but its still good to learn from no matter who speaks it.
I wish I were a mod so I could ban/warn you. You know why? Because I disagree with you. You're lucky I'm not a mod and that this isn't a SC 2 thread. You don't know anything about serious business.
Perhaps I'm biased in that I never really heard English casting until I wasn't a "noob." The majority of the casters kinda struck me as people that you would find in the D channel, granted they hadn't given up playing yet. I think it was more of simply a play-by-play kinda thing, which is fine, but some of them had voices that were just so distracting to me... After I stopped playing BW, I heard Sayle cast some, and I was super shocked, as I enjoyed his casting. So, as with most things, it depends. I honestly think, more times than not, you would be better off listening to Koreans screaming: having a chance to have some of that passion being instilled in you surpasses the chance of having the English casters' knowledge imparted in you. I love those guys.
Blog mode enabled because I can't follow guidelines if I can't be bothered to read them. I'm rank 1 masters in HotS and should be a win or two in a row from getting promoted to GM (3 open spots atm and the last person I saw got into GM was in that point range). I hope everyone keeps playing WoL, so I can preface everything by saying "Just so you know, I'm GM." I surmise you could say w/e, trolling or not, after that, and the plat mods would have to go "well he said he was GM... I have to consider the merits even though that explanation is the worst I've ever seen." One day, perhaps in a dream, I'll get that license to post in a SC 2 thread, where business is always serious. I'm pretty sure I'll be banned first, though.
I was trapped/set up. How can a help thread versus mutalisks in p vs z (SC 2) be allowed. I'm telling you, every time I watch a stream (usually a featured player who is GM), they are getting obliterated by mutalisk strategies. They go pure stalkers, auto loss. They go ht, the zerg player happens to have a mouse that is still functioning... I guess the correct answer to a help thread of that sort is supposed to be, it's imbalanced and you're doomed. Or you're supposed to say "do this, the thing that you watch lose 24/7. It might not ever work in practice, but god damn it worked in a theory session." Give me a break.
W/e happened to being able to say "I don't know why it works... I'm not a scientist. I just noticed it tends to work." Let me try to be a scientist so you can get some bonus strategy for another game. Why does a composition of 2 void rays, 1-2 archons and stalkers do decently against mutas? I'm going to go out on a limb and say, because if the mutas get close enough to try to snipe your void rays, your archon(s) gets pot shots. Conversely, if the mutas target other units, then the void rays end up being charged and doing considerably more damage. Plus, if you have void rays, you basically end up with something that serves as mobile cannons, saving you from actually having to build more than 1 cannon at any location until you have your third up and running. Thus, you don't end up falling behind economically and not even being able to base race if you need to because your army is inferior and couldn't even win a straight up fight.
Bill Nye the science guy strikes again. Great advice. Don't let anyone tell you differently. And if they do, let them know that I've casted a game. I haven't, but mods probably have. And that's why you listen to Koreans screaming. Where do the jokes end and the for realz begin is anyone's guess.
it's yust that i almost never listen to cast for more game knowlageXD, if there good (like day9) i am listen verry closly but otherwise i don't realy care for the learning purposes.
On November 28 2012 23:21 sabas123 wrote: nice post lol, makes be kinda nostalgic to some old bw vs sc2 threads lol.
playa, do you think vods are yust a good of a tool as replay for learning purpose?
Starting out, I think replays are far more valuable, as you have the option to copy builds to a tee: it's obviously a lot easier to miss all of the nuances and end up doing something considerably different, if you're new'ish and are just going from a VOD. The better you get, the better you should be at "filling in the blanks," or at least already accustomed to trial and error.
Ideally, everything would be available in replay format, as not only is it hard to go wrong with a replay, but a lot of times when we watch a vod, we're watching it for entertainment, not so much taking notes.
For me, for the longest of time, I don't think anything compared to watching a replay. But, much later on, I still think watching a sea[shield] VOD had the biggest impact on my play. You're not going to find that as a replay, so a vod can still be very beneficial, and you simply don't always get a choice. VODS of pro games are obviously more readily available.
In t vs z, fighting against pro gamers muta micro was absurd. So many turrets to be made and so much stress over the positioning of everything. Also, knowing how deadly mutas can be in the hands of someone with insane micro, it made the spire plus hydra den build so annoying. You had to make some turrets to respect the possibility, and then they might just end up going pure lurker. Really obnoxious and you always give them an advantage from the get-go.
You take that seminal idea of not needing medics/stim/range or valkeries to defend against mutas, and you don't just want to say "I want to copy this to a tee," you want to find out just how far you can take it once one of your preconceived notions of what isn't possible has been shattered.
So, in short, it largely depends on where you're are at as a player to how much you can get out of a replay versus a vod. But, you can never go wrong with having the replay. I think day[9] said that Froz watched a first person vod of a pro gamer and then decided "I' can do that/I'm going to do that," and then just went out and started playing that fast. That must be nice, right? The more information you can take in, be it a replay or a vod, the better. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking everything you see is optimal, just because it's a pro game. I still can't get over for how long people were using 2 rax fast expo in BW. Once people see something enough, there's a tendency to just stop thinking about it and accept it as being how it's supposed to be. For that reason, building off ideas from vods or incorporating small things is more than sufficient, more times than not.
i find it so easy to learn the general outline of a mu yust by watching vods, A: becouse the amount of S class players vods (tbls) is yust so high and easy to find, also becouse its so easy to go through a bunch of them realy quickly. and ofc with the potantial of skiping large chunks and rewinding.
but isn't it much more easier to learn these little things through replays??? assuming your good enough to find them on your own and doesn't need to hope the observer going to take a shot of it^^
and about that froz thing, i can totaly relate to it lol, it helps so much to DETERMINE your goal and KNOW you gonna be that good or than fast or what ever.
realy cool to see that you still give tips to people, do you still play. ifso whats your rank.
100% correct. In SC 2, VODS are probably a lot more beneficial than in BW, because they are in English. In BW, I always muted the English ones that weren't casted by Tastosis.
Anytime you're trying to emulate a pro style and a recent replay from a top pro gamer is released/leaked, your head should explode just a little bit. I don't want to say it's the holy grail or anything, but it's kinda a big deal
For my first year playing or w/e, I wouldn't be surprised if I watched more replays than anyone. Whether they were 1 rank above me or w/e, I always found them helpful. I would check some Korean replay site every day. Like there would always be a few replays from a Korean ladder. I remember always awaiting more t vs z replays. It made 0 sense, though, because there were never any deviations that I remember Well, at least I made sure I didn't miss any changes in the metagame.
I haven't played a BW game in a long time. I stopped playing games all together for a while. I started playing SC 2 a couple months ago. Currently playing HotS; rank 2 in masters atm. I'm pretty sure my win rate versus GM is my highest win rate versus any league. It's very, very peculiar. I've found SC 2 to be weird in that the affect of the league doesn't really seem to mean much. Ie., if you're weak or strong against a particular strategy, that's the biggest factor in whether you will win or not. Obviously, as long as the ranks are within reason. Bronze going to be bronze. That element seems a lot more accentuated than anything I remember in BW, outside of the proxy BBS build.
does it realy matter if there is commentary? i know that it really really helps if a good player talks (tastosis) but its still good to learn from no matter who speaks it.
W/e happened to being able to say "I don't know why it works... I'm not a scientist. I just noticed it tends to work." Let me try to be a scientist so you can get some bonus strategy for another game. Why does a composition of 2 void rays, 1-2 archons and stalkers do decently against mutas?
In what context? If it's just against mutas, the charge-up damage on two void rays shouldn't matter much; it's only an increase from 6 to 8, on two units, and in a harassment scenario you'll lose your charge quickly anyway. I think the utility of the void rays comes from different sources; flight + range allows them to ward off mutas without getting hung up on cliff edges or buildings, and without obstructing your archons. Void Rays let you see over cliffs, if you don't already have vision. Void Rays mean you have a Stargate, so Zerg has to be more wary of Phoenixes. And Void Rays are probably holdovers from earlier in your build, that you got some sort of mileage out of.
Of course, if Protoss is attacking, Void Rays are great against spines...
Desperate people do sensible things. At least I do. Everyone that downloaded my book owes me retroactively. If the government can do it, sure, why not me? While I'm joking, the book now "costs" $4.99. Sure, you can download it for free still, BUT you could in essence donate 4.99 and set yourself up for some amazing coaching. I'm not one to use words lightly, so when I say amazing... it's an understatement. No one is going to DL it anyways. I'm just covering all avenues before I probably quit. I might come back to play in a WCS if they're letting everyone and their grandmother qualify, again. I'm not holding my breath.
When I was playing HotS, I was starting to get delusional. I was finishing GM every season and beating pros, so I thought at times, "maybe I could be one." Nope. Dumb thought. It was silly of me, despite picking up SC months prior. It's just too hard atm. If you focus on strictly trying to improve, you're not going to be marketable enough. If you focus strictly on marketing, you're foundation is bs. Then again, I guess Brad Pitt used to stand around in a chicken suit, advertising for a restaurant (saw it as a tidbit before a movie started), and is from my city. Who knows what mascoting can lead to. For some reason, not the most intriguing idea.
It's decision time. To be a pro in today's age, you have to stream. My computer just isn't quite good enough. So, if I play HotS and want to try to be a pro, I'd also have to get a new computer just to stream? It's just not realistic. Sooner or later you have to get something back from what you put in to justify continuing. What good would top 30 GM be or w/e if it doesn't lead to anything, and it's out of your control? There seems to be a lot more reasons against playing than for it.
I recently created a journal site, aka messaging me on facebook. It's pretty amazing, too (note I don't use words lightly). Despite being curious as to how weird and riveting others lives are, if you donate, you can feel free to ask me anything SC related in the future, granted I still play. Reps, advice, etc. I would say only for HotS, as it's the best game ever and the game I'd be playing, but this is in the BW section and who doesn't like getting nostalgic from time to time. I'm very open to also playing enough BW to be able to help out, granted they might have to be pretty D rank.
I want to thank skzlime for his message. Thanks (some might just say thank you, but they're prob weird). I knew your name was familiar, but I'd been out of the scene for too long I guess. It's nice to hear that from a gosu like yourself. You got yourself a fan.
And for the poster above me, you just earned yourself an anti-fan. It was a few months ago, but I just saw it. I'm just messing. I think you're right about a lot, and if I think you're wrong on any points, who the fuck am I? That's right, you're the man. It's just one of those things, where if I made void rays and I had that composition before being hit by mutas (no fastest 2 base muta rush ever), I usually found a way to win. That said, everything is relative, and I hated playing against mutas more than any other possibility.
For me that configuration bought me time. I didn't need cannons, and they had to get a considerable amount of mutas before they could even try to engage me, and by that time, I'd often be ready to base trade, anyways. It's just one of those things where maybe it only really worked well with my particular build. I had dt's sniping potential expansions and maybe I delayed their eco more than another build with a similar assortment of units versus mutas.
O yeah, the site: Show me the money When I've quit playing and you're desperate for my help, remember who forced me into quitting. It's all on you, unless you don't want it to be.
O, and about that HotS being the best game comment. I guess I owe an explanation for that one. I'm playing Toss. I like macro. I like to turtle. Cannon defense is like a dream, and with mothership core and a flying dt unit thing, it's just the most amazing fucking game I've ever seen. I couldn't design a race to be more to my specifications than that. Maybe if the race came with free marketing and a chicken suit, but other than that, perfect.
And for any wonder, I've always considered the book to be more of an RTS book than game specific. It's not like it's a build order book or anything.
On February 18 2013 02:23 playa wrote: O yeah, the site: Show me the money When I've quit playing and you're desperate for my help, remember who forced me into quitting. It's all on you, unless you don't want it to be.
plz yust shut the fuck up.
we never asked anybody to be here on the forum for our own sake, teamliquid is a community that is based on love for the games we play. sure many of us here try to improve, some maby try to become progamer, but i can say for most people here in teamliquid its still the community that is most important.
you did some nifty work in creating that book, i have to admit it. but its yust sad that you are trying to blame us for not satisfying your own financal needs.
On February 18 2013 02:23 playa wrote: O yeah, the site: Show me the money When I've quit playing and you're desperate for my help, remember who forced me into quitting. It's all on you, unless you don't want it to be.
plz yust shut the fuck up.
we never asked anybody to be here on the forum for our own sake, teamliquid is a community that is based on love for the games we play. sure many of us here try to improve, some maby try to become progamer, but i can say for most people here in teamliquid its still the community that is most important.
you did some nifty work in creating that book, i have to admit it. but its yust sad that you are trying to blame us for not satisfying your own financal needs.
really deeply sad.
Are you leveling me? You must have been really eager to find that book link, and just skipped the 100 other jokes in that. But now that I really think about it, yeah yo I think sabas123 is the main culprit. Nope, not my choice to not charge anything. I was looking for one person to single out. Looking in the mirror gets tiring.
I'm def not going to edit that line, though, as it appears to be getting to some. Yeah, let it sink in and trouble you at night, as I do something else. I could be playing against noobs, but no, the game is over. You guys might be a community, but I got a family. And my family doesn't live off nothingness. Imagine if I had 4 babies and 4 baby mommas to take care of. Everyone would be dead, and it would be on you. That's on your watch.
Have you guys seen how much some sites are worth, even this one... shoot, let my family die over the game. Quibbling over pennies, when I'm looking at billions. Give my site some monopoly money.
On February 18 2013 02:23 playa wrote: O yeah, the site: Show me the money When I've quit playing and you're desperate for my help, remember who forced me into quitting. It's all on you, unless you don't want it to be.
plz yust shut the fuck up.
we never asked anybody to be here on the forum for our own sake, teamliquid is a community that is based on love for the games we play. sure many of us here try to improve, some maby try to become progamer, but i can say for most people here in teamliquid its still the community that is most important.
you did some nifty work in creating that book, i have to admit it. but its yust sad that you are trying to blame us for not satisfying your own financal needs.
really deeply sad.
Are you leveling me? You must have been really eager to find that book link, and just skipped the 100 other jokes in that. But now that I really think about it, yeah yo I think sabas123 is the main culprit. Nope, not my choice to not charge anything. I was looking for one person to single out. Looking in the mirror gets tiring.
I'm def not going to edit that line, though, as it appears to be getting to some. Yeah, let it sink in and trouble you at night, as I do something else. I could be playing against noobs, but no, the game is over. You guys might be a community, but I got a family. And my family doesn't live off nothingness. Imagine if I had 4 babies and 4 baby mommas to take care of. Everyone would be dead, and it would be on you. That's on your watch.
Have you guys seen how much some sites are worth, even this one... shoot, let my family die over the game. Quibbling over pennies, when I'm looking at billions. Give my site some monopoly money.
tbh i think you earn more money by sites like moneymillionair than asking money for your book now purely becouse of that it has been free for so long already.
althou i do find it sad that you (not in a offenive way) don't earn enough money to support your family (atleast thats what i am getting from your posts)
"Imagine if I had 4 babies and 4 baby mommas to take care of. Everyone would be dead, and it would be on you. That's on your watch." it really isn't. no matter which way you put it, you can't really blame us even it that would happen (which i hope it won't) becouse there are still plently of ways to or make enough money by other means, or survive without money.
On February 18 2013 02:23 playa wrote: O yeah, the site: Show me the money When I've quit playing and you're desperate for my help, remember who forced me into quitting. It's all on you, unless you don't want it to be.
plz yust shut the fuck up.
we never asked anybody to be here on the forum for our own sake, teamliquid is a community that is based on love for the games we play. sure many of us here try to improve, some maby try to become progamer, but i can say for most people here in teamliquid its still the community that is most important.
you did some nifty work in creating that book, i have to admit it. but its yust sad that you are trying to blame us for not satisfying your own financal needs.
really deeply sad.
Are you leveling me? You must have been really eager to find that book link, and just skipped the 100 other jokes in that. But now that I really think about it, yeah yo I think sabas123 is the main culprit. Nope, not my choice to not charge anything. I was looking for one person to single out. Looking in the mirror gets tiring.
I'm def not going to edit that line, though, as it appears to be getting to some. Yeah, let it sink in and trouble you at night, as I do something else. I could be playing against noobs, but no, the game is over. You guys might be a community, but I got a family. And my family doesn't live off nothingness. Imagine if I had 4 babies and 4 baby mommas to take care of. Everyone would be dead, and it would be on you. That's on your watch.
Have you guys seen how much some sites are worth, even this one... shoot, let my family die over the game. Quibbling over pennies, when I'm looking at billions. Give my site some monopoly money.
tbh i think you earn more money by sites like moneymillionair than asking money for your book now purely becouse of that it has been free for so long already.
althou i do find it sad that you (not in a offenive way) don't earn enough money to support your family (atleast thats what i am getting from your posts)
"Imagine if I had 4 babies and 4 baby mommas to take care of. Everyone would be dead, and it would be on you. That's on your watch." it really isn't. no matter which way you put it, you can't really blame us even it that would happen (which i hope it won't) becouse there are still plently of ways to or make enough money by other means, or survive without money.
You're too easy sabas123. I don't have a family to support, but I gotta support myself. You should see me. 6 feet and 150 pounds. You know what that means, that's a metabolism on overdrive. That means as soon as I eat something, before I've even digested it, it's already converted to energy. I can't keep up. Maybe that's how it works, I'm not sure; I've been too busy trying to pwn noobs for you.
I don't want to make money unless it's through cool means like doing nothing. It doesn't get any cooler than saying, I'ma pwn some noobs and feel free to give me some money. I don't know what moneymillionair is and I don't want to look it up beforehand. If that's some kinda joke or something, I'ma let you get me. I'll look it up after this.
Between what you're saying and what I'm listening to
Maybe I can find a way to survive. But how comfy will it be. Please take into account my comfort level. I'm sleeping on rocks and stones and too uncomfortable to find out the difference between those. I have bigger priorities.
On February 18 2013 02:23 playa wrote: O yeah, the site: Show me the money When I've quit playing and you're desperate for my help, remember who forced me into quitting. It's all on you, unless you don't want it to be.
plz yust shut the fuck up.
we never asked anybody to be here on the forum for our own sake, teamliquid is a community that is based on love for the games we play. sure many of us here try to improve, some maby try to become progamer, but i can say for most people here in teamliquid its still the community that is most important.
you did some nifty work in creating that book, i have to admit it. but its yust sad that you are trying to blame us for not satisfying your own financal needs.
really deeply sad.
Are you leveling me? You must have been really eager to find that book link, and just skipped the 100 other jokes in that. But now that I really think about it, yeah yo I think sabas123 is the main culprit. Nope, not my choice to not charge anything. I was looking for one person to single out. Looking in the mirror gets tiring.
I'm def not going to edit that line, though, as it appears to be getting to some. Yeah, let it sink in and trouble you at night, as I do something else. I could be playing against noobs, but no, the game is over. You guys might be a community, but I got a family. And my family doesn't live off nothingness. Imagine if I had 4 babies and 4 baby mommas to take care of. Everyone would be dead, and it would be on you. That's on your watch.
Have you guys seen how much some sites are worth, even this one... shoot, let my family die over the game. Quibbling over pennies, when I'm looking at billions. Give my site some monopoly money.
tbh i think you earn more money by sites like moneymillionair than asking money for your book now purely becouse of that it has been free for so long already.
althou i do find it sad that you (not in a offenive way) don't earn enough money to support your family (atleast thats what i am getting from your posts)
"Imagine if I had 4 babies and 4 baby mommas to take care of. Everyone would be dead, and it would be on you. That's on your watch." it really isn't. no matter which way you put it, you can't really blame us even it that would happen (which i hope it won't) becouse there are still plently of ways to or make enough money by other means, or survive without money.
You're too easy sabas123. I don't have a family to support, but I gotta support myself. You should see me. 6 feet and 150 pounds. You know what that means, that's a metabolism on overdrive. That means as soon as I eat something, before I've even digested it, it's already converted to energy. I can't keep up. Maybe that's how it works, I'm not sure; I've been too busy trying to pwn noobs for you.
I don't want to make money unless it's through cool means like doing nothing. It doesn't get any cooler than saying, I'ma pwn some noobs and feel free to give me some money. I don't know what moneymillionair is and I don't want to look it up beforehand. If that's some kinda joke or something, I'ma let you get me. I'll look it up after this.
Maybe I can find a way to survive. But how comfy will it be. Please take into account my comfort level. I'm sleeping on rocks and stones and too uncomfortable to find out the difference between those. I have bigger priorities.
moneymillionair is a site that basicly pays you for seeing ads, its little work and can give some income for some extra little stuff.
Sounds kinda illegal. Sounds kinda nice, but... set me up a bot that does all the work and we're set. So close. Online, sometimes, at least in the past I did some online data entry work. I like typing numbers more so than letters. I got a score that's third on some site, behind some Harvard Asian kid and the "typing champion" Shawn Wrona. This Wrona kid is like king nerd. Spent endless hours doing typing races and what not. I wanted to tell him, hey you could be making thousands doing the same thing but... on a different site, but I guess I'm like you: I could give them some pennies, but meh, I'd rather watch them struggle.
I hope that kid is drowning right now. Go us. I want to be the life guard the only guards lives not in danger.
On February 18 2013 06:21 playa wrote: Sounds kinda illegal. Sounds kinda nice, but... set me up a bot that does all the work and we're set. So close. Online, sometimes, at least in the past I did some online data entry work. I like typing numbers more so than letters. I got a score that's third on some site, behind some Harvard Asian kid and the "typing champion" Shawn Wrona. This Wrona kid is like king nerd. Spent endless hours doing typing races and what not. I wanted to tell him, hey you could be making thousands doing the same thing but... on a different site, but I guess I'm like you: I could give them some pennies, but meh, I'd rather watch them struggle.
I hope that kid is drowning right now. Go us. I want to be the life guard the only guards lives not in danger.
it's funny how people assume something discard awnsers so quickly becouse it doesn't fit with their expectations.
Not that it matters and this is merely becoming a blog/journal (hence I why I made a journal site , but obviously I've been thinking about what to do concerning gaming. There's too many question marks, and what is said publicly is taking the "gaming" out of pro gaming. You have managers like Total Biscuit saying that skill is largely irrelevant. Talking in a manner like he has such a great personality and others don't. It's just kinda sick to me. Gaming is largely an introverted endeavor. Most of us are going to be more reserved in nature and only show our true personality in settings we're very comfortable in.
I'm half-black. Is maximusblack better than me? Has he tried harder in gaming than me? Does he probably have more of a personality? I dunno. I just see an extroverted person, though. Big deal. 75% of life isn't rare or amazing to me. If life isn't already dominated enough by them, they they have to come into gaming and set the parameters and be the judge on who has personality? Whatever happened to taking who you truly thought was the best player and working on bringing their personality out.
Korea is one of the most introverted countries, if not the most. Somehow they found a way to make it work out. Imagine your favorite sports team and then start subtracting people that don't seem to have the "best personality." You have to find ways to get sponsors their exposure without making a mockery out of the profession. No other sport works like this. To me it shows a lack of creativity, and maybe that's part of their problem. Maybe they should stick to talking. It's gaming. Not dating.
Even if the scene were "pure" and gaming results were all that mattered, where's the transparency? How much can you expect to make? It can't be amazing. Who says embark on a 100 mile run just to see if something worthwhile is there or not. How many are going to stop short due to losing faith in something "being there?" So much is left to be desired from a player's standpoint.
There's always something, though. Even when I could have tried out for Estro, I played on every server. Yeah, I wish I could pull a totalbiscuit and talk about how awesome I'm at things that don't matter. I swear I'm a great cook. Try to convince them that's what matters. Even if that were true and that's what sponsors wanted, who the fuck cares? It's not cooking. It's not a reality tv show, either. They were 10000x better than me, and there was no doubt I didn't belong there, whether artificial reasons could be created or not.
Anyways, going to stop being as lazy... and try to get one of those job things. I'd like to not play any HotS, but... I like it so far and the game is way more suited for me than BW or WoL is, so why not play on the side, even if I don't get the game right away.
And for sabas, pray for my imaginary baby mommas and babies. I have a hearing in 3 days, and if things go "how they should" it will be a 1,500 profit day. That's a lot of baby food for my imaginary family.
I want people to remember that Nyoken was one of the best Terrans ever from the US. When managers shun and indirectly hate on people like him, remember what kind of talent and skill is being discriminated against. I'm sure Nyoken is a very interesting guy. But, I'll never know because we're only highlighting people that already do a good job of doing it for themselves. Total bs.
On February 18 2013 09:47 playa wrote: You have managers like Total Biscuit saying that skill is largely irrelevant. Talking in a manner like he has such a great personality and others don't. It's just kinda sick to me.
On February 18 2013 06:02 TotalBiscuit wrote: Skill is irrelevant in most cases. Girls are naturally more marketable than guys because there's a hell of a lot more male players and more competition. That said there are also plenty of female players that get zero recognition or sponsorship because they don't properly market themselves, just like the endless stacks of male players who are supposedly "skilled" but have the personality of a cinder block.
That's a quote from today. I'm curious as to who are these people with these "cinder block" personalities? Was Korea wrong for focusing on skill first? Was it wrong to have to win a tournament to get a pro license? I'm just curious if you think this is a better deal for all parties involved. To me, it just seems like a good deal for whores.
What's sad to me is that despite having no connection or history between each other, is that I'm in a BW forum, which you can't ever be checking, yet I knew without a doubt I would be getting a reply from you. You guys like to pride yourself on how marketable "x" is and yada fucking do, yet it's just an easy game of manipulation. I could bait you into some drama that I possibly wouldn't even care about, and next thing you know I'm getting publicity. What do they say, there's no such thing as bad publicity? Say I become the most hated person, but I'm known for it, well at least that team will always be in the news.
Good at marketing themselves... what are they marketing? mediocrity? Drama? There used to be a saying that was something to the effect of "let the your results do the talking for you." I see a lot of people with no results just talking to talk. Anyone can do that. Big fucking deal. Maybe I'm doing that now. Does that make me a better person/player. Does that make more more marketable? It shouldn't be my job to bs people. What kind of foundation is that.
If you got so much money and you're doing so well, how about hiring some people to help market players if you haven't already. Let a kid focus on playing a game. In what sport does anyone have to worry about marketing themselves until after they are a pro? I'm genuinely curious. You know 75% of gifted people are introverted. The more intelligent one is, the more introverted they tend to be. I'm just curious what kinda impact that might have. God forbid their personality was affected in a "negative" way in regards to sponsors. You're involved in a game that involves cognition, and we're going to focus on extroverted people that say bs, bs ,bs.
You can sweep players under the rug with bs excuses, but I know players like Nyoken are still way more fucking talented than any of your pokebunnies and bs maximusblacks. Enjoy the fraud while you can keep it up is all I can say. I don't know who you're doing a favor for, though, acting like personality is some trump card. Are you dating these guys? I'd hate to think I'd ever have to be that interested in a guy's personality.