Alot of people complain about how to stop zealots in TvP when walling is not an option. Most people would say "Make rines and micro them with scv". There is also a little trick which many should consider. Certain building placements will allow a marine to go through the gap between 2 buildings, but not a zealot.
The theory I did the research on placing buildings that you would have in early game TvP, and here are the placements that work and don't:
Extending the theory Now that you know which combinations and positions of buildings work, you can experiment in putting these together to make a really solid setup, or you can just go with the supply+rax combo on any map. Here are some examples to start you thinking about what makes a good setup:
[Edit]!!! I'm very hesistant to recommend this special setup. I tried it in an ICCup game, but the zealot manage to fit through. It seems if the zealot is going after your rine, it will go through the gap, but not if you use a move command to try and get it through. Stay with rax+supply or rax+cc in the normal configurations because it is safer.
Applying the theory to real games Once you have this special gap, what do you do with it? Basically, zealots will have to walk around the buildings the long way, while your rine can walk straight through the gap. If he does take the long way around, just walk through the gap and continue shooting. If he goes for an scv, don't be afraid to attack him, and when he heads for your rine again, just dive towards the gap. Similarly, if he heads for your mineral line, attack him with the rine and retreat to the gap when needed. Also retreat scvs that getting attacked.
Something that is quite important to note is that when you have 2 or more marines to control, to get them all through the gap, you have to spam move or else they'll get confused. Do not attack until you have all the rines safe on the other side of the buildings. I have lost a couple of rines because when 1 rine walks through, the gap is blocked for a moment, so the other rines try and go the long way around and get confused. Spamming move will avoid this.
Also, I tend to place my next supplies adjacent to the existing ones without thinking. This sometimes leads to really awkward groups of supplies that clog my base up. Think carefully about where the supplies go and how you can place it so that the next supplies you make will be in a neat place.
Pros and Cons If you use this technique properly, you are perfectly safe with 1 marine vs the first zealot if you have good micro. It also saves mining time compared to building a wall because your scvs do not have to travel so far away and back (and you won't get annoying tosses building a pylon at your wall or anything).
When 2 or more zealots come, you start to get into trouble. Obviously he can trap your rines by simply attacking from both sides of the gap. By then however, you should have a vult building if you took good care of your scv that's building your factory (and this is why you need the factory close to your setup, so it can build as fast as possible without being held up). If he sends goons after that, they will be a problem without a wall too, but some scvs to hold your ramp should be enough.
This idea is not mine, and I read it when someone said "nada puts his rax beside his cc so he can run his rine through and make a maze". Also, please don't try and say things like "lol youre a retard" etc without trying it yourself in a game.
niteReloaded's work All credit goes to him of course, and he covers all the different possible positions with each combination of buildings, plus some examples of setups on RLT and RH3:
CC + supply combos: No matter how you put them next to each other, not a marine nor a zealot can go in between. (Had a picture of it, but apparently I dont have it anymore. This one shouldnt be too hard to understand )
Practical use: I made all starting positions for the RLT and RHIII so that you get the idea of how to use this in a real game.
1. A rax, with a supply on the right of it is good in any arrangement as long as they are adjacent. 2. A CC, with a rax to the right of it is good in any arrangement as long as they are adjacent. 3. 2 supplies right beside each other is good. 4. All other arrangements are basically useless.
Just like how people experiment with FE setups in PvZ, do a bit of research yourself on the maps you like to play and memorize the setups for each position. If you're playing on a map where you haven't done the experimenting, then you can stick with your simple CC+Rax or Supply+Rax combos.
Note: To test out quickly on a map, pick toss against a terran computer, then mc the scv that builds the first rax. The computer will sit there and do nothing from then on.
on luna i had top right and did the rax placement in the 2nd ss. the zeal came and my marine was spazzing in a circle till he died while i clicked frantically, and my opponent was like "?"
Ahah, I learned this the hard way by walling wrong and being rushed early by zealots when I played Terran, but those facts I know, and helped me a lot against gay proxies/cheesers :\.
It seems like the setup doesn't really cover your mineral line, though, as marine range is only 4. T_T In the bottom two pictures (gosu pics btw), can't the zealots just walk around to the mining scvs and hit them without being attacked?
On August 17 2006 14:58 Myrmidon wrote: It seems like the setup doesn't really cover your mineral line, though, as marine range is only 4. T_T In the bottom two pictures (gosu pics btw), can't the zealots just walk around to the mining scvs and hit them without being attacked?
On August 17 2006 14:48 LegendaryDreams wrote: so what if u spawn with minerals to the right of your cc?
Make a rax and put a depot to the right of it.
no no no, you should lift your command center, tell your scvs to stop, and float your rax to land as close to minerals as possible. then tell ur command center to land. this will slow down your minerals, but hey, if you lose, you're terran so who cares.
<------------- p player. pvt is hard enough as it is. without little things like this. why not rush with this? huh?? huh!!?
On August 17 2006 14:58 Myrmidon wrote: It seems like the setup doesn't really cover your mineral line, though, as marine range is only 4. T_T In the bottom two pictures (gosu pics btw), can't the zealots just walk around to the mining scvs and hit them without being attacked?
You can attack the zealot, and if he comes after you you run to your little gap, and if he decides to attack you just run through and he goes the long way around. If he decides to go for your scvs again after chasing you away you go and attack him again.
I have tried about a zillion times and i cant get it to work with the supply... Command center + rax works great but command center + supply your marine cant get through which incidentally might be a great idea for a block so there is no way to fit your marine in that gap
and rax supply depot I can't get to work because the zealot always is able to attack the rine.
On August 17 2006 14:48 LegendaryDreams wrote: so what if u spawn with minerals to the right of your cc?
Make a rax and put a depot to the right of it.
no no no, you should lift your command center, tell your scvs to stop, and float your rax to land as close to minerals as possible. then tell ur command center to land. this will slow down your minerals, but hey, if you lose, you're terran so who cares.
<------------- p player. pvt is hard enough as it is. without little things like this. why not rush with this? huh?? huh!!?
On August 18 2006 00:28 outqast wrote: I have tried about a zillion times and i cant get it to work with the supply... Command center + rax works great but command center + supply your marine cant get through which incidentally might be a great idea for a block so there is no way to fit your marine in that gap
and rax supply depot I can't get to work because the zealot always is able to attack the rine.
Try set it up exactly like the 4th pic, you don't need the cc on the left but place the supply depot like that in relation to the rax. It worked in the test game I used for the screen shots
also, if the minerals are to the right of your cc you make a supply to the left and then a barracks to the left of that?? or do you make a barracks to the left and then a supply depot to the left of that?? im asking this because this:
On August 17 2006 14:48 LegendaryDreams wrote: so what if u spawn with minerals to the right of your cc?
Make a rax and put a depot to the right of it.
doesn't answer Legendary's question, one which I pose too, in any way whatsoever. It does in fact seem to be ignoring it completely... in simple terms: Q) what do I do if I can't build to the right A) build to the right riight
On August 18 2006 00:28 outqast wrote: I have tried about a zillion times and i cant get it to work with the supply... Command center + rax works great but command center + supply your marine cant get through which incidentally might be a great idea for a block so there is no way to fit your marine in that gap
and rax supply depot I can't get to work because the zealot always is able to attack the rine.
Make sure the top-left corner of the supply is just barely below the top-right of the barracks. If its a tiny bit above, then the barracks will technically be "below" it, and almost any time that happens, you get a "wall condition".
Intresting concept, usefull in early game, but the second a goon shows up with a zeal or 2 your in trouble. After initial rush having a choke point is very important. This opening will lead to intense micro for terran costing him time, Perhaps opening with 8 rax will stop the proxy rush but where will that leave u in terms of tech timing. I would like to see an 8-9 rax opening for a metal build on maps such as these. hmm...8 rax 1 fact 1 port may be effective (vults or tanks ur choice keeping in mind how much toss has spent on zeals). But i myself usually have no trouble holding a proxy with 10 rax rine pump into a gundam. Maybe 8 rax 15 fact then expo ? realitivly slow opening in terms of offense but that doesnt stop terrans these days. Any ideas?
On August 17 2006 14:48 LegendaryDreams wrote: so what if u spawn with minerals to the right of your cc?
Make a rax and put a depot to the right of it.
no no no, you should lift your command center, tell your scvs to stop, and float your rax to land as close to minerals as possible. then tell ur command center to land. this will slow down your minerals, but hey, if you lose, you're terran so who cares.
<------------- p player. pvt is hard enough as it is. without little things like this. why not rush with this? huh?? huh!!?
Brilliant Idea! Terran rushes protoss with a handful of SCV/marines and build mass supply depots instead of bunkers and micros them to death. Sounds like an awesome way to toy a newb eh? xD
On August 18 2006 00:28 outqast wrote: I have tried about a zillion times and i cant get it to work with the supply... Command center + rax works great but command center + supply your marine cant get through which incidentally might be a great idea for a block so there is no way to fit your marine in that gap
and rax supply depot I can't get to work because the zealot always is able to attack the rine.
Try set it up exactly like the 4th pic, you don't need the cc on the left but place the supply depot like that in relation to the rax. It worked in the test game I used for the screen shots
On August 17 2006 12:35 intrigue wrote: yeah lings can get in
in fact zerglings get anywhere
no true afaik:X There are certain maps, and building placements where u can block completely. I remember on LT, a factory and acadamy did just that. (I want to say a xellos or nad game where they went 2 port wraith) Obvioisly wont matter vs 9 pool, but still;P
On August 18 2006 10:27 Mortality wrote: PvT is not a hard match-up. Don't even try to complain about it.
This guide was very informative, very good.
Of course, its not a hard macth-up for toss because PvT IS imbalanced.,:terran needs perfect building placements to SURVIVE a zealot rush.and why i think PvT is imbalanced?because terran doesnt have an early static defense, like cannons or sunkens,.
On August 18 2006 10:27 Mortality wrote: PvT is not a hard match-up. Don't even try to complain about it.
This guide was very informative, very good.
Of course, its not a hard macth-up for toss because PvT IS imbalanced.,:terran needs perfect building placements to SURVIVE a zealot rush.and why i think PvT is imbalanced?because terran doesnt have an early static defense, like cannons or sunkens,.
no... rofl
u can stop a zlot rush perfectly just with marine/scv micro
On August 18 2006 00:28 outqast wrote: I have tried about a zillion times and i cant get it to work with the supply... Command center + rax works great but command center + supply your marine cant get through which incidentally might be a great idea for a block so there is no way to fit your marine in that gap
and rax supply depot I can't get to work because the zealot always is able to attack the rine.
Try set it up exactly like the 4th pic, you don't need the cc on the left but place the supply depot like that in relation to the rax. It worked in the test game I used for the screen shots
This is what happened when i tried it :-(
You're meant to run through, not just stand in between, because the Zealot can't fit through.
On August 18 2006 15:25 iNsaNe- wrote: I'm rudely hijacking this thread for my own selfish purposes and asking where do you get that LiveAPM-thing?
Download BWlauncher if you don't have it already. Then run that with b-net. Then in game type (backslash)apmlive (or (backslash)liveapm, i forgot which one. )
And to the guy who said tvp is imbalanced because of early game zealots: No.
On August 18 2006 10:27 Mortality wrote: PvT is not a hard match-up. Don't even try to complain about it.
This guide was very informative, very good.
Of course, its not a hard macth-up for toss because PvT IS imbalanced.,:terran needs perfect building placements to SURVIVE a zealot rush.and why i think PvT is imbalanced?because terran doesnt have an early static defense, like cannons or sunkens,.
On August 18 2006 15:25 iNsaNe- wrote: I'm rudely hijacking this thread for my own selfish purposes and asking where do you get that LiveAPM-thing?
Download BWlauncher if you don't have it already. Then run that with b-net. Then in game type (backslash)apmlive (or (backslash)liveapm, i forgot which one. )
And to the guy who said tvp is imbalanced because of early game zealots: No.
Give reasons, dont just say NO.and it is imbalanced since terran must wall-in to survive the rush
On August 18 2006 10:02 MyLittlePwny wrote: Intresting concept, usefull in early game, but the second a goon shows up with a zeal or 2 your in trouble. After initial rush having a choke point is very important. This opening will lead to intense micro for terran costing him time, Perhaps opening with 8 rax will stop the proxy rush but where will that leave u in terms of tech timing. I would like to see an 8-9 rax opening for a metal build on maps such as these. hmm...8 rax 1 fact 1 port may be effective (vults or tanks ur choice keeping in mind how much toss has spent on zeals). But i myself usually have no trouble holding a proxy with 10 rax rine pump into a gundam. Maybe 8 rax 15 fact then expo ? realitivly slow opening in terms of offense but that doesnt stop terrans these days. Any ideas?
Well think about it this way. If you're playing on luna, FD is a very viable build. If you did not place your buildings in any special way, you would fight off the first zealots (if toss went zealots into goons at the start) by using your typical scv + marine micro running around etc. Most people don't have trouble with taking on the first goon + zealot because the tank is coming out soon by then. By usign the placement of the buildings to make that special gap, you can relieve the pressure of the zealot by not having to use scvs to stop the zealots.
On August 18 2006 03:21 Reason wrote: thanks for your help skyglow!
also, if the minerals are to the right of your cc you make a supply to the left and then a barracks to the left of that?? or do you make a barracks to the left and then a supply depot to the left of that?? im asking this because this:
On August 17 2006 14:48 LegendaryDreams wrote: so what if u spawn with minerals to the right of your cc?
Make a rax and put a depot to the right of it.
doesn't answer Legendary's question, one which I pose too, in any way whatsoever. It does in fact seem to be ignoring it completely... in simple terms: Q) what do I do if I can't build to the right A) build to the right riight
Diverse got it right in his pic. It doesn't matter where your rax + supply combination is, just not too far away from your mineral line so its easier to defend your mineral line. Here's a simple explanation:
Case 1: Minerals are to the right of your cc; solution = rax + supply (supply is on the right side of the rax). Case 2: Minerals are not to the right of your cc; solution = raxn on the right side of cc, or supply on the right side of a rax.
On August 18 2006 00:28 outqast wrote: I have tried about a zillion times and i cant get it to work with the supply... Command center + rax works great but command center + supply your marine cant get through which incidentally might be a great idea for a block so there is no way to fit your marine in that gap
and rax supply depot I can't get to work because the zealot always is able to attack the rine.
Try set it up exactly like the 4th pic, you don't need the cc on the left but place the supply depot like that in relation to the rax. It worked in the test game I used for the screen shots
This is what happened when i tried it :-(
You're meant to run through, not just stand in between, because the Zealot can't fit through.
You can place it in the middle but its hard to do that accurately. Better to just run through when youre microing hard and trying to macro at the same time. I'll try that palcement on luna and see if I can get it to work outqast.
[Edit] Funny that... it doesn't seem to work on Luna in that placement. The zealot still cant go through and you can do the running trick, but you cant place your marine and leave it there so the zealots cant touch the rine. As you can see in the 4th pic those 2 zealots are walking around aimlessly so it works on LT. Just do the run through thing.
On August 18 2006 08:52 lakrismamma wrote: Nice but still the zeeaot have time to kill like 3 scv before the marine kills it?
Run your scv thats getting hit to another mineral before it dies. If he goes after your marine, run towards the gap and through it if you need.
On August 17 2006 12:35 intrigue wrote: yeah lings can get in
in fact zerglings get anywhere
no true afaik:X There are certain maps, and building placements where u can block completely. I remember on LT, a factory and acadamy did just that. (I want to say a xellos or nad game where they went 2 port wraith) Obvioisly wont matter vs 9 pool, but still;P
On August 18 2006 10:27 Mortality wrote: PvT is not a hard match-up. Don't even try to complain about it.
This guide was very informative, very good.
Of course, its not a hard macth-up for toss because PvT IS imbalanced.,:terran needs perfect building placements to SURVIVE a zealot rush.and why i think PvT is imbalanced?because terran doesnt have an early static defense, like cannons or sunkens,.
2. But wait, stats mean nothing. (insert rant about good players v bad players). Okay, let's try to find other Terrans sharing a similar concern as you do, as clearly it is a serious problem if they face such enormous odds stacked against them in every TvP. So let's try to find people whining about PvT imbalance by searching for "PvT imbalance" at TeamLiquid. http://teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q="pvt imbalance" , aka no results, as none of those threads mention that PvT is imbalanced. Compare to http://teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q="pvz imbalance"
3. But let's imagine, that despite this overwhelming evidence, let's pretend that you, CGMU, have stumbled upon something that no one has yet discovered in a game dating back many many years, a game in which zealot rush v Terran must never have been attempted despite it being mainstream against both other races, and this monumental discovery could be one that would allow you to go down in history with such other brilliant Starcraft strategists such as the author of the Official Prima Strategy Guide and that guy that peddles that ProGamer book that Leg did a chapter for. So let's consider your masterful reasoning.
terran needs perfect building placements to SURVIVE a zealot rush
(I'm not even going to dignify your comment on lack of static defense with a response. Not only does T have static defense:
anyone who needs to use them in TvP is about as deserving of posting in the Strategy Forum of this website as a wasted baboon.)
According to you, you need to wall-in in order to "SURVIVE" a zealot rush (ignoring such trivialities like "micro" or "not sucking hard at build order", since attack-move is obviously all anyone needs).
Therefore, on maps where you can't wall-in, it's impossible to "SURVIVE" said zealot rush without "perfect" building placement.
Which is why, of course, Terran loses every single TvP game on Luna, or Hunters, or Blizzard's old LT at the 6 position, or any of the other eighty thousand maps where walling is impossible.
Goddamn, you should be in Korea winning every tournament with nothing but your juggernaut war-machine zealots raping every T ever. Who needs micro and macro when you have your PATENTED CGMU PVT ZEALOT RUSH FREEWIN ability?
On August 17 2006 12:35 intrigue wrote: yeah lings can get in
in fact zerglings get anywhere
no true afaik:X There are certain maps, and building placements where u can block completely. I remember on LT, a factory and acadamy did just that. (I want to say a xellos or nad game where they went 2 port wraith) Obvioisly wont matter vs 9 pool, but still;P
Rax/depot on 9 LT stops lings AFAIK
I think you need to place it in a certain way for that to work. The way I usually use doesn't block the lings, but if you replace one of the supply depots in any block with a academy then AFAIK it blocks the lings out.
On August 18 2006 03:21 Reason wrote: thanks for your help skyglow!
also, if the minerals are to the right of your cc you make a supply to the left and then a barracks to the left of that?? or do you make a barracks to the left and then a supply depot to the left of that?? im asking this because this:
On August 17 2006 14:48 LegendaryDreams wrote: so what if u spawn with minerals to the right of your cc?
Make a rax and put a depot to the right of it.
doesn't answer Legendary's question, one which I pose too, in any way whatsoever. It does in fact seem to be ignoring it completely... in simple terms: Q) what do I do if I can't build to the right A) build to the right riight
This is what I was describing. This does block zealots as long as the marine is not too close to the bottom or top while it's between the rax and depot.
On August 18 2006 15:25 iNsaNe- wrote: I'm rudely hijacking this thread for my own selfish purposes and asking where do you get that LiveAPM-thing?
Download BWlauncher if you don't have it already. Then run that with b-net. Then in game type (backslash)apmlive (or (backslash)liveapm, i forgot which one. )
And to the guy who said tvp is imbalanced because of early game zealots: No.
Give reasons, dont just say NO.and it is imbalanced since terran must wall-in to survive the rush
Hehe, I remember back in the good old days, before Luna was ever created.. I used to play PvT PvZ TvP and because I was (am) crazy (or just trying to be contrary, much like how I picked protoss - everyone said they were the weakest - and I insist on defending PvZ as a balanced matchup - and have for most of the time I've played BW), I naturally decided to copy the most unique terran player for my TvP.
Who?
V-Gundam.
Never, ever walls in (now there's tons of people who don't but back then everyone except him and a couple of others - boxer doing it every now and then - walled).
Ah man, only did gundam rushes for more than a year, probably 2. Wasn't great at it tho, but fun build.
Ahem, back to the point: no, you don't need to wall-in to survive, make non-stop marines from the barrack, maybe get a vulture before your machineshop if he insists on making more zealots.
On August 17 2006 12:35 intrigue wrote: yeah lings can get in
in fact zerglings get anywhere
no true afaik:X There are certain maps, and building placements where u can block completely. I remember on LT, a factory and acadamy did just that. (I want to say a xellos or nad game where they went 2 port wraith) Obvioisly wont matter vs 9 pool, but still;P
On August 18 2006 10:27 Mortality wrote: PvT is not a hard match-up. Don't even try to complain about it.
This guide was very informative, very good.
Of course, its not a hard macth-up for toss because PvT IS imbalanced.,:terran needs perfect building placements to SURVIVE a zealot rush.and why i think PvT is imbalanced?because terran doesnt have an early static defense, like cannons or sunkens,.
[QUOTE]On August 19 2006 16:53 GrandInquisitor wrote: [QUOTE]On August 18 2006 11:21 OverTheUnder wrote: [QUOTE]On August 18 2006 10:49 Night[Mare] wrote: [QUOTE]On August 17 2006 12:35 intrigue wrote: yeah lings can get in[/QUOTE]
in fact zerglings get anywhere[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]On August 18 2006 12:32 CGMU wrote: [QUOTE]On August 18 2006 10:27 Mortality wrote: PvT is not a hard match-up. Don't even try to complain about it.
This guide was very informative, very good.[/QUOTE]
Of course, its not a hard macth-up for toss because PvT IS imbalanced.,:terran needs perfect building placements to SURVIVE a zealot rush.and why i think PvT is imbalanced?because terran doesnt have an early static defense, like cannons or sunkens,.[/QUOTE]
Ignoring obviously bad maps like Guillotine...
1. Let's take a look at stats. [url=http://www.pgtour.net/ladder.stats.php]http://www.pgtour.net/ladder.stats.php[/url] , [url=http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=15963]http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=15963[/url] , [url=http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=15932]http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=15932[/url]
2. But wait, stats mean nothing. (insert rant about good players v bad players). Okay, let's try to find other Terrans sharing a similar concern as you do, as clearly it is a serious problem if they face such enormous odds stacked against them in every TvP. So let's try to find people whining about PvT imbalance by searching for "PvT imbalance" at TeamLiquid. [url=http://teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=%22pvt+imbalance%22]http://teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=%22pvt+imbalance%22[/url] , aka no results, as none of those threads mention that PvT is imbalanced. Compare to [url=http://teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=%22pvz+imbalance%22]http://teamliquid.net/forum/search.php?q=%22pvz+imbalance%22[/url]
3. But let's imagine, that despite this overwhelming evidence, let's pretend that you, CGMU, have stumbled upon something that no one has yet discovered in a game dating back many many years, a game in which zealot rush v Terran must never have been attempted despite it being mainstream against both other races, and this monumental discovery could be one that would allow you to go down in history with such other brilliant Starcraft strategists such as the author of the Official Prima Strategy Guide and that guy that peddles that ProGamer book that Leg did a chapter for. So let's consider your masterful reasoning.
[quote]terran needs perfect building placements to SURVIVE a zealot rush[/quote]
(I'm not even going to dignify your comment on lack of static defense with a response. Not only does T have static defense:
anyone who needs to use them in TvP is about as deserving of posting in the Strategy Forum of this website as a wasted baboon.)
According to you, you need to wall-in in order to "SURVIVE" a zealot rush (ignoring such trivialities like "micro" or "not sucking hard at build order", since attack-move is obviously all anyone needs).
Therefore, on maps where you can't wall-in, it's impossible to "SURVIVE" said zealot rush without "perfect" building placement.
Which is why, of course, Terran loses every single TvP game on Luna, or Hunters, or Blizzard's old LT at the 6 position, or any of the other eighty thousand maps where walling is impossible.
Goddamn, you should be in Korea winning every tournament with nothing but your juggernaut war-machine zealots raping every T ever. Who needs micro and macro when you have your PATENTED CGMU PVT ZEALOT RUSH FREEWIN ability?[/QUOTE]
?? korea?no thanks,i and by the way i say early static defense, zergs have sunkens, toss have cannons, and terran must wait until barracks is made to have a bunker and then fil it with marines,¿dont you think is fair for terran to have something similar tu a cannons or a sunken?that can be made early, before making any barracks ?
CGMU: Zerg has to make a spawning pool before they can make a sunken.
Protoss has to make a forge before they can make a cannon.
The bunker is by far the faster of the 3 ; [ (ie you don't need to make a special building for it, unlike toss forge, no creep colony before it either).
Skyglow, I was vaguely familiar with the concept of sticking Marines between buildings to be invulnerable to zealots, but your illustrations really fleshed it out clearly for me. Sweet stuff, props .
I don't know if many people know this, so I decided to share some anti-ling building placements:
So basicly, they have problems going between supply and academy, this works on many maps, but I chose lost temple because I knew all positions. Also there are certain perfect-blocks with 2 buildings like on 9 lt, or 1 o'clock memory cell. Probably many of you knew but, for those who didn't, maybe this helps.
P.S. I'm not a terran player so if any of this contradicts game logic in any way (like academy too soon), don't come to me asking for B.O.s or smth.
Edit: shrunk them a bit so they're faster to load.
On August 20 2006 05:33 superjoppe wrote: isnt academy and supply the same size? o.O
i think it has more to do with how they are shaped. supplies have more room between them when placed at an angle next to each other i guess. cool find though. But honestly, unless you are doing something wierd TvZ. you don't really need a wall, and by the time you get an academy, you would definitely have enough rines to hold your ramp in the first place, with bats and meds ready to go.
the only time where i think this would be somewhat useful is in a 2v2, where you may want to biomech and what not. the only time i would wall would be on the 9 spot LT, just out of sheer convenience.
Yes, I use those for 2v2 when I play random, but if you don't mind lifting you can do it in 1v1 too, just to stop z from sneaking in when you leave home base, or try a drop and are scared of 3-hatch-lings, and the likes. Please note that academy on the right with supply on the left will NOT hold off lings, you need to have a supply depot on the right side of the academy in order for this small trick to work.
Also, as a basic rule, small units have it harder to pass between two different types of buildings (supply+acad, supply+barrax, barracks + fact)
This thing was used by boxer or nada, but it was one of my favourite blocks vs toss back in my terran days because of the fact that factory has a lot more HP than supply. Also holds off lings perfectly, so it works in 2v2. Sadly, I haven't tried this on other maps (machine shop sold separately):
On August 19 2006 16:53 GrandInquisitor wrote: and this monumental discovery could be one that would allow you to go down in history with such other brilliant Starcraft strategists such as the author of the Official Prima Strategy Guide and that guy that peddles that ProGamer book that Leg did a chapter for.
On August 20 2006 05:33 superjoppe wrote: isnt academy and supply the same size? o.O
i think it has more to do with how they are shaped. supplies have more room between them when placed at an angle next to each other i guess. cool find though. But honestly, unless you are doing something wierd TvZ. you don't really need a wall, and by the time you get an academy, you would definitely have enough rines to hold your ramp in the first place, with bats and meds ready to go.
the only time where i think this would be somewhat useful is in a 2v2, where you may want to biomech and what not. the only time i would wall would be on the 9 spot LT, just out of sheer convenience.
Hehe, I remember a cool game between kiwi and, hm.... Some zerg, maybe Liquid`Crystal? Anyway, he used that block Cube showed for 3 o clock and went wraiths and shit It was really fun, don't have it anymore tho.
On August 20 2006 19:14 CGMU wrote: the title of this thread is "placement vs zealots", why do you put pictures of how to stop lings?.stupid.
coming from the guy who claims PvT is imbalanced because of the zealot rush. keep it up!
edit: I dont want to make another post, but no, I play terran. You are really retarded though, and with the recent bans of annoying peruvians... I'm kinda hoping the trend continues and you disappear too.
Americans are annoying too, a lot more, you are the perfect example. fucking gay.lol
I posted the pics here because someone said that "lings can get in just about anywhere", so I thought I'd share some ling-blocking builds in case you need to keep them out fast. I wasn't going to start a whole new thread just for 5 screenshots.
And just because you don't like a match-up, doesn't mean it's imbalanced. You probably think that TvT is imbalanced as well because you keep getting owned right?
Edit: sorry, didn't see he got banned, didn't want to start a flame war but I get itchy when people say things like that.
This is quite a useful thread. Can someone post pictures of formations that work on other maps such as Requiem, etc.? Or perhaps PvZ placements to slow down lings (I know it's kind of off topic here)? I'm honestly too lazy to test them myself
On August 23 2006 17:21 Empyrean wrote: This is quite a useful thread. Can someone post pictures of formations that work on other maps such as Requiem, etc.? Or perhaps PvZ placements to slow down lings (I know it's kind of off topic here)? I'm honestly too lazy to test them myself
On any position and on any map, put a supply to the right side of a rax. This should allow a rine through but not a zealot.
Also supply on the right side of an academy will stop lings, on any map, provided you have the other side covered
And pvz is easy, since you can't really stop lings, just jam a few buildings in front of the cannons (forge / gate / cybercore) very close to them so that only one ling can pass at a time. In case he attacks just place probes/zealots in where lings are coming through and it should be ok. No point in memorising cannon placements, since fast expo positions are infinetly diverse.
a good protoss player wouldnt just let the zeolots stick aroudn getting hit by the marines, they'd probably go and target some SCVs or just keep alive long enough for the goons to come
CGMU, bunker for static defense is sometimes necessary, if you dont feel safe when FE cuz you dont know what the P is doing. He might do bulldog and the one bunker might just be able to save you.
On August 24 2006 15:22 iSkye[89] wrote: yeah, this is nice never thought of this
however, there's a catch.
a good protoss player wouldnt just let the zeolots stick aroudn getting hit by the marines, they'd probably go and target some SCVs or just keep alive long enough for the goons to come
.... What you're meant to do is attack the zealot whenever you can. If the zealot decides to try and attack your rine, you simply run it away and the zealot can't do anything. If the zealot goes back for the scvs again, you just move that 1 scv that is under attack, and while you do that you can attack his zealot with your rine. If he doesn't run his zealot then its almost certainly dead.
With the recent talks about terran building placements, I decided to revamp and completely redo my guide on building placement vs zealots. Hope it helps!
hey, when u place ur depot so that scv pops out closer to mins, if u put ur barracks next do the depot and the cc, will that work? ___xxxx ___xxxx bbbxxxx bbbsss bbbsss
On January 08 2008 09:58 imBLIND wrote: hey, when u place ur depot so that scv pops out closer to mins, if u put ur barracks next do the depot and the cc, will that work? ___xxxx ___xxxx bbbxxxx bbbsss bbbsss
b = barracks s = depot x= cc (goes by matrix)
No it doesn't. The CC stops the rine from going through, even when the rax is 1 matrix down.
On January 08 2008 12:57 Fury_InCa wrote: i wonder, could u press hold in middle of bunker/supply where marine could shoot at zealot, not move, and zealot couldnt reach it?
yes you can but, it's really hard to fit it in there just right. The moment you do and he figures what's going on, he can just move away and attack an scv, forcing you out of your little gap, and you'll have trouble trying to fit back in it again. It is better to just move back and forth between the gap as needed.
I tried a few extra positions not in the images skyglow posted using the rax and the CC. Rax above the CC and in 3 of the corners does not work, but putting the rax below and to the right of the CC (right below where the comsat would go) also works. Also, I was under the impression that you could only put a rine in between the CC and Rax and not have the zealot able to attack your rine. It is possible just using a bunker/supply?
On January 08 2008 13:31 Qatol wrote: I tried a few extra positions not in the images skyglow posted using the rax and the CC. Rax above the CC and in 3 of the corners does not work, but putting the rax below and to the right of the CC (right below where the comsat would go) also works. Also, I was under the impression that you could only put a rine in between the CC and Rax and not have the zealot able to attack your rine. It is possible just using a bunker/supply?
I didn't do the corners cause I generally like things being like beside each other when the buildings are the same size
Yes it is possible with rax and supply (I think that's what you mean instead of bunker), but for some reason you cannot do it on a map like luna, but it does work on jungle tileset (like python).
Do you honestly think this is anything more than a cute tip for one in a thousand situations? Would you modify your play style after finding this out? I suppose the idea is that you need fewer Marines before starting your tech, but if you are doing Gundam or FD you have a surplus of minerals which are spent on Marines anyways... I don't see how this changes TvP at all other than some sort of Marineless build (1 Fact 1 Port or some Siege first expand).
I just reread that and the tone makes me come off like a dick. I'm trying to get across that I don't understand TvP very much, but I don't think this affects anything. If I played Terran I wouldn't alter anything after finding this out.
On January 08 2008 23:57 Chill wrote: Do you honestly think this is anything more than a cute tip for one in a thousand situations? Would you modify your play style after finding this out? I suppose the idea is that you need fewer Marines before starting your tech, but if you are doing Gundam or FD you have a surplus of minerals which are spent on Marines anyways... I don't see how this changes TvP at all other than some sort of Marineless build (1 Fact 1 Port or some Siege first expand).
I just reread that and the tone makes me come off like a dick. I'm trying to get across that I don't understand TvP very much, but I don't think this affects anything. If I played Terran I wouldn't alter anything after finding this out.
Well, Chill, FD Terran includes a 11 (or 12) rax/gas and factory before 2nd depot. Eventhough you'll make ~4 rines to go with your first tank, those 4 rines will be somewhat late. A quick zealot-first build can often delay FD. Eventhough I have to agree some of the setups in this thread are over the top (hey if you're gonna build 2depots and a barracks 3 squares away from your cc you might as well wall), the CC-Rax positioning is pretty damn common and can come in handy
On January 08 2008 23:57 Chill wrote: Do you honestly think this is anything more than a cute tip for one in a thousand situations? Would you modify your play style after finding this out? I suppose the idea is that you need fewer Marines before starting your tech, but if you are doing Gundam or FD you have a surplus of minerals which are spent on Marines anyways... I don't see how this changes TvP at all other than some sort of Marineless build (1 Fact 1 Port or some Siege first expand).
I just reread that and the tone makes me come off like a dick. I'm trying to get across that I don't understand TvP very much, but I don't think this affects anything. If I played Terran I wouldn't alter anything after finding this out.
Erm for example on ICCup I end up finding this setup VERY useful in nearly half of my TvP games seeing as many tosses will send 2 or more zealots before making goons.
Not only do you need less marines before starting tech, you defend so much better with the marines you have against the first couple of zealots. If you have solid micro, your defense is pretty much perfect and you will not suffer any losses (except for maybe a little slowdown to your build order if he attacks the scv building the fact). You don't even need to pull any scvs to defend unless you see there's more zealots coming and you want to hold your ramp.
And anyway, the point isn't to alter your playstyle or build order. It's to do something useful with your intial buildings which helps you immensly vs a zealot rush. There's no concrete reason not to do it, and when you do it, it helps so much.
Also, this isn't some random theorycraft I'm just throwing out there. I've used this in every one of my TvP games, and it's proven itself to be a valuable tool in early game. I don't "think this is anything more than a cute tip for one in a thousand situations", I know it is more than that, at least for me it is, and I'm sure many other terran players.
It was in the old recommended threads section but if you don't want to put it for the people to see in the new recommended threads then fine.
On January 09 2008 04:32 Tiamat wrote: What about lings?
lings and marines are the same size correct?
Lings will go through the gaps that marines can go through. This doesn't mean all the positions that have a cross beside them will stop lings. Some of them have crosses because they let both rines and zealots through (and thus also lings).
On January 08 2008 23:57 Chill wrote: Do you honestly think this is anything more than a cute tip for one in a thousand situations? Would you modify your play style after finding this out? I suppose the idea is that you need fewer Marines before starting your tech, but if you are doing Gundam or FD you have a surplus of minerals which are spent on Marines anyways... I don't see how this changes TvP at all other than some sort of Marineless build (1 Fact 1 Port or some Siege first expand).
I just reread that and the tone makes me come off like a dick. I'm trying to get across that I don't understand TvP very much, but I don't think this affects anything. If I played Terran I wouldn't alter anything after finding this out.
Erm for example on ICCup I end up finding this setup VERY useful in nearly half of my TvP games seeing as many tosses will send 2 or more zealots before making goons.
Not only do you need less marines before starting tech, you defend so much better with the marines you have against the first couple of zealots. If you have solid micro, your defense is pretty much perfect and you will not suffer any losses (except for maybe a little slowdown to your build order if he attacks the scv building the fact). You don't even need to pull any scvs to defend unless you see there's more zealots coming and you want to hold your ramp.
And anyway, the point isn't to alter your playstyle or build order. It's to do something useful with your intial buildings which helps you immensly vs a zealot rush. There's no concrete reason not to do it, and when you do it, it helps so much.
Also, this isn't some random theorycraft I'm just throwing out there. I've used this in every one of my TvP games, and it's proven itself to be a valuable tool in early game. I don't "think this is anything more than a cute tip for one in a thousand situations", I know it is more than that, at least for me it is, and I'm sure many other terran players.
It was in the old recommended threads section but if you don't want to put it for the people to see in the new recommended threads then fine.
What's wrong with walling? I'm trying to get to the theory of why you would ever do this. What advantages does this afford that a single Marine and a wall don't? It seems overcomplicated - you can't leave your Marine on hold position because of it's low range, so you're going to end up using a ton of micro anyways.
On January 08 2008 23:57 Chill wrote: Do you honestly think this is anything more than a cute tip for one in a thousand situations? Would you modify your play style after finding this out? I suppose the idea is that you need fewer Marines before starting your tech, but if you are doing Gundam or FD you have a surplus of minerals which are spent on Marines anyways... I don't see how this changes TvP at all other than some sort of Marineless build (1 Fact 1 Port or some Siege first expand).
I just reread that and the tone makes me come off like a dick. I'm trying to get across that I don't understand TvP very much, but I don't think this affects anything. If I played Terran I wouldn't alter anything after finding this out.
Erm for example on ICCup I end up finding this setup VERY useful in nearly half of my TvP games seeing as many tosses will send 2 or more zealots before making goons.
Not only do you need less marines before starting tech, you defend so much better with the marines you have against the first couple of zealots. If you have solid micro, your defense is pretty much perfect and you will not suffer any losses (except for maybe a little slowdown to your build order if he attacks the scv building the fact). You don't even need to pull any scvs to defend unless you see there's more zealots coming and you want to hold your ramp.
And anyway, the point isn't to alter your playstyle or build order. It's to do something useful with your intial buildings which helps you immensly vs a zealot rush. There's no concrete reason not to do it, and when you do it, it helps so much.
Also, this isn't some random theorycraft I'm just throwing out there. I've used this in every one of my TvP games, and it's proven itself to be a valuable tool in early game. I don't "think this is anything more than a cute tip for one in a thousand situations", I know it is more than that, at least for me it is, and I'm sure many other terran players.
It was in the old recommended threads section but if you don't want to put it for the people to see in the new recommended threads then fine.
What's wrong with walling? I'm trying to get to the theory of why you would ever do this. What advantages does this afford that a single Marine and a wall don't? It seems overcomplicated - you can't leave your Marine on hold position because of it's low range, so you're going to end up using a ton of micro anyways.
The buildings are much closer to your scvs than if you built a wall, speeding up your build. You also won't have any annoyances with a toss who tries to mess with your wall by sitting around where the last supply is meant to go or whatever. You'll also waste less mining time if you need to fend off the probe thats harassing your building scv.
If you compare doing this setup to just normal placements of buildings (not wall), then with the normal placement you'll need to be pulling scvs and microing them too. With thsi setup you can just micro the rines and that will pretty much be enough.
I still feel the advantages are too few. Instead of running the Marine like normal, you're going to be... running the Marine out of his hole and then retreating back. Meanwhile he has free reign of targetting SCVs, especially the Factory SCV. If you further alter your build to place the Factory quite close to your Comman Center, it's now in a non-ideal position in terms of a late-game Factory setup, as shown in your screen shots. Obviously you could lift it and float it to a better spot, but if you do that you've just forfeited the small timing advantage that you sought to gain from this entire thing to start with.
Regardless I put it in the recommended threads to let people decide for themselves. Knowing which setups are Zealot-proof is necessary for making walls on the fly anyways.
lol chill. skyglow is absolutelly right not all maps let u make wall , and only a few are viable for 1 depo 1 rax wall - so "make wall" isn't something always available
about running with marine - the advantage is HUGE compared with price (nothing?). you need to build depo so it doesn't matter where it is - and 1 depo near cc won't really mess ur base (if its rax just lift off) and you gain ability to return fire with rine. without depo//rax help in 1v1 marine vs zeal toss is "the boss" he chooses what to do - chase rine , attack scv or retreat. and usually t doesn't have the option to strike back (unless p goes for scv's). and with this t can force p to attack scv's or escape (or zeal will die after time if he keeps going after marine which strikes back)so T is "the boss" now. it may sound as minor issue , but in the beggining of tvp 1 zealot can REALLY annoy t and with this "trick" you gain psychological advantage too XD (forcing 1 zeal to retreat with just 1 rine without scv help is priceless).
also i have question regarding the first situation with cc and depo - does it have to be in exact positon , or can it be 1 block (up down), and are there any other options involing cc+building?
Seems to me that any P intent on sending zeals to your base early will be harassing a wall aggressively (pyloning etc).
The problem with this though is that with just a bit of lag, it's really difficult - and it's very tricky if too many zeals get in your base (maybe then throw down a bunker?).
Note though that I use this almost exclusively and rarely wall.
On January 09 2008 05:55 Chill wrote: I still feel the advantages are too few. Instead of running the Marine like normal, you're going to be... running the Marine out of his hole and then retreating back. Meanwhile he has free reign of targetting SCVs, especially the Factory SCV. If you further alter your build to place the Factory quite close to your Comman Center, it's now in a non-ideal position in terms of a late-game Factory setup, as shown in your screen shots. Obviously you could lift it and float it to a better spot, but if you do that you've just forfeited the small timing advantage that you sought to gain from this entire thing to start with.
Regardless I put it in the recommended threads to let people decide for themselves. Knowing which setups are Zealot-proof is necessary for making walls on the fly anyways.
Well the only thing you'll have to really actively micro is the marine, compared to having to pull scvs if you didn't do the setup, and this is advantageous.
He doesn't ahve free reign on the factory scv. If he tries to attack it, you attack his zealot. The moment he goes for your zealot, you move towards the gap. If he goes back for the scv again, you can reactly quickly adn resume shooting at him. If your factory is scv is about to die, you can replace it very quickly since the factory is close.
The first factory I'll admit is in a somewhat awkward position. However, that doesn't mean you need to place the next factories beside it and end up with a poor placement. Just place your next few factories in the ideal spot. 1 factory in a strange spot isn't going to affect you much, if at all. And no you'd never lift because that's just not a smart thing to do.
On January 09 2008 06:16 NoDDiE wrote: also i have question regarding the first situation with cc and depo - does it have to be in exact positon , or can it be 1 block (up down), and are there any other options involing cc+building?
Dunno. I just like how it looks when it's in the exact position. I know for a fact the rax+supply combinations can be up or down, but don't know about the CC.
On January 09 2008 06:41 naventus wrote: Seems to me that any P intent on sending zeals to your base early will be harassing a wall aggressively (pyloning etc).
The problem with this though is that with just a bit of lag, it's really difficult - and it's very tricky if too many zeals get in your base (maybe then throw down a bunker?).
Note though that I use this almost exclusively and rarely wall.
Exactly. If you wall you will run into annoyances as well. This setup has way less annoying stuff that toss can do against it compared to when you wall.
Yeah once he gets to 2 or more zeal, and he's figured out what's going on, he can use probe + zealots to trap your marines and give you a hard time. However, you should be able to damage the first zealot enough so he has to run down your ramp, and then you should be able to hold your ramp with your next marines + a few scv.
Wow, like 2 weeks ago i did a research on this subject also, because I tought that you didnt explore all the options. I have a good bunch of screenshots which i'll post here and you can include it in your post if you like them. I think you'll find some of them interesting. I was going to create a thread, but I just couldnt get myself to start typing. I covered all possibilities of making CC, Barax and supply next to each other. Some block better than the others, some are useful, some suck. What I really focused on is exploiting the matrix, so keep an eye on which parts of the buildings overlap before going to do it yourself. After I did this research, went to play some games, it took me some time to actually use the things I learned, because I kept doing it wrong. Anyway, have a look:
CC + supply combos: No matter how you put them next to each other, not a marine nor a zealot can go in between. (Had a picture of it, but apparently I dont have it anymore. This one shouldnt be too hard to understand )
Practical use: I made all starting positions for the RLT and RHIII so that you get the idea of how to use this in a real game.