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On September 28 2014 21:16 Soulforged wrote: That advice is just a generalization/simplification, no need to read into it too much. F.e. mid-game low gate count can be compensated by having a reaver or dts, and so on. By having tech you say? hmmm Anyway, the solution is always to have make more factories and go kill him. full yolo
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A lot of people have talked about strategy and tactics in this thread. But there's an even higher level to the matchup that doesn't get talked about enough especially for lower level players, which is getting disciplined at minimizing costly mistakes. This is tactical, no doubt, but also psychological.
TvP is hard at lower levels because: * It's very unforgiving of your mistakes * There are so many possible kinds mistakes that can be made, at literally every minute of the game, and in virtually every situation (offensive, defensive, blocking cheese, even just not getting your gas stolen) * AND you don't get "handed" wins as often as other matchups
In my opinion, it has the highest combination of these three things of any the three non-mirror matchups. + Show Spoiler [ZvT] +For example, ZvT is also very unforgiving of your mistakes, and you also can mess up at every minute, but because T is mechanically quite challenging, you will get handed wins because a T grossly mismicroed or something more often than Protoss players will hand wins to Terran.
One thing players at lower levels often don't realize is how many of their wins resulted more from the other player handing you a win than you winning the game. In TvP, you have to earn a higher percentage of your wins, and I think realizing this can benefit your mentality toward getting better in TvP immensely. Most low level players aren't disciplined about reviewing their play, because just getting good at executing a solid build / strat, and memorizing a few triggers for hitting, is good enough. + Show Spoiler [compare to TvZ] +For example you can get a great winrate at low level TvZ just by understanding when to Sunken bust (and critically, when NOT to try), and learning how to identify when you have a tech advantage and the Z will have no chance to block your push at the first Vessel so you just need to play solid, deny expos, for the next two or three minutes and then go and win.
With TvP, this is less true. There are so many more variants of things that can happen in that matchup. This creates a vicious cycle effect in difficulty because you'll lose for so many different reasons that it's hard to keep track and know what to focus on getting better at, unless you're disciplined about reviewing your play and identify the "root" error in each game. Otherwise, you make one mistake in a game, it snowballs, and by the end you think P is stronger in every possible way, but really you needed to prevent that first mistake. + Show Spoiler [compare to TvZ] +This is another reason why a lot of people find TvZ easier - you can come back a lot more easily, because Z can so easily accidentally throw their entire army at you in a bad way and you can go from 25% chance to win to 75% chance in 30 seconds, and you'll think you were good but you got handed a win more than anything.
As some more examples: * Not handling a Gas steal + early Zealot pressure well can singlehandedly set you back for the rest of the game (the "root" error) in a way that snowballs into more errors, thus distracting you from your "root" error. * Missing a timing by 10 seconds can result in a DT doing literally 20X as much damage if not ending the game. * Missing a turret timing by 10 seconds, or not spotting something on the minimap, or messing up your turret placement / forgetting one, can result in a Reaver doing 20X as much damage. * Very minor positioning mistakes can be the difference between losing to bulldog and coming out way ahead. * Forgetting to scan for Carriers in a hectic game can be the difference between winning and losing. * Accidentally sieging when you didn't want to, or sieging too late, can undo a build that was perfect up till that point. * A mistake in placing your mines can backfire and destroy your push. * Being unprepared and out of position for a Recall can swing a game that you were solidly ahead in the entire time for. * Trying to push into the Protoss main (especially up a ramp), and relaxing because you think you're ahead can be a recipe for disaster (you can literally lose to Zealots coming out of unrallied Gateways alone). * The general tide of a long game swings in P's favor by default, because there's a point when the first 3 bases are drained and it's much harder for T to keep up their economy compared to P.
... and the list goes on and on and on. Of course there are a lot of different ways to lose in every matchup, but TvP probably has the longest and broadest list of ways at lower levels. If you really want to get over the TvP hump, you probably need to be more serious about reviewing your play than was required to steadily get better in other matchups, which is why I put the stuff I'm talking about in the "psychological" category more than anything. Otherwise, you should just play casually and for fun, but just be prepared to be frustrated more by TvP than any other matchup.
All the stuff I'm saying applies to playing ANY matchup in BW (and most games really) in general, but TvP is the matchup that exposes them the most and the earliest when you're at a low level but trying to climb. That's why I think it stands out as a matchup to so many players, especially those who've played multiple races and matchups frequently.
Again, I'm mainly talking about LOWER level players here - not commenting on the general balance level of the matchup.
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TLADT24917 Posts
OP, I'm also a noob when it comes to TvP but I try to focus on three things: 1) Opening. I feel its important to have an idea of what you want to do to open the game. I usually 1 rax FE, get a bunker asap and fac soon after my cc is building. Macro and get academy for scans and eventually an ebay. Siege FE is also solid but as mentioned, old. Doing a FD isn't a bad idea either and it's the most common these days so I would focus on that. I'm also learning to FD. 2) Macro (workers/units). I know it's a general term but really, once you expand, just make workers and add factories when you have the money. Of course, don't neglect your defense and add 5 fac at once if its weak, do it only if you can safely (and scouting helps you make that decision) then keep checking back to make units from the factories once they are done. 3) Decision making in battle: I feel this is really important and links to what darktreb said above. I've lost count of games where I've had the lead but made a bad mistake leading to me losing my army and either losing outright to the counter attack or barely surviving but just hanging on to lose later. Basically, this comes down to reading the situation and think of possible things that can take place. Your army is about to engage his, can I take it on? yes? ok, what's the best way to do it? Do I have enough vultures to siege all my tanks (if low vulture count, zealots will close in easily)? Did I split my tanks well enough or are they clumped? Do I lay mines with my vultures during the battle or focus on protecting the tanks and providing a buffer (yes, I know laying mines is also a buffer lol)? Then once you add goliath, vessels, etc... is it better to target shuttles or focus on main army? there's a lot more questions like those to think about and this is all supposed to happen (you making the decision) in seconds so I think only experience will help. It's just something fun to think about lol. Above all, don't forget to macro even as the battle goes on (after you positioned your units)!
On September 29 2014 09:21 darktreb wrote: * Not handling a Gas steal + early Zealot pressure well can singlehandedly set you back for the rest of the game (the "root" error) in a way that snowballs into more errors, thus distracting you from your "root" error. * Missing a timing by 10 seconds can result in a DT doing literally 20X as much damage if not ending the game. * Missing a turret timing by 10 seconds, or not spotting something on the minimap, or messing up your turret placement / forgetting one, can result in a Reaver doing 20X as much damage. * Very minor positioning mistakes can be the difference between losing to bulldog and coming out way ahead. * Forgetting to scan for Carriers in a hectic game can be the difference between winning and losing. * Accidentally sieging when you didn't want to, or sieging too late, can undo a build that was perfect up till that point. * A mistake in placing your mines can backfire and destroy your push. * Being unprepared and out of position for a Recall can swing a game that you were solidly ahead in the entire time for. * Trying to push into the Protoss main (especially up a ramp), and relaxing because you think you're ahead can be a recipe for disaster (you can literally lose to Zealots coming out of unrallied Gateways alone). * The general tide of a long game swings in P's favor by default, because there's a point when the first 3 bases are drained and it's much harder for T to keep up their economy compared to P. Agree. I've lost games because I didn't do well against early zealot pressure or another time on La Mancha, I had the much better eco but my ebay was late and I lost to dts (happened twice in a row that time lol). Carriers coming out of nowhere is also another common thing that I've lost to. Not sure if I've ever lost to zealots from unrallied gateways but I don't doubt that I've sieged up in the main when I shouldn't have lol.
For me, I always found TvP annoying. Mostly because I could never do any early aggression because either my control or decision making was bad (or macro slipped) which sets you back if you lose your early army and have to defend before grabbing your natural as the Protoss grabs a third. TvZ though, I can play the matchup all day. So many different builds, lots of possible fun micro and even though terran units are fragile, so are zerg units so until ultralisks/defilers are out, there's constant action (for the most part).
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Hello all, im´m having lots of troubles in TvP, im T. My bio vs zerg is very good, but my mech, tvp above tvz or tvt, is horrible, i lose my army, i dont have much game sense of tvp, i dont know when to attack, even i dont know how it woks a 5 fact push, or a flash build, dont know if expand, or what units to get exactly, i usually get a hell of tanks, then add more facs and get vultures for a push, but it all dies, sometimes even before i get to the p base. help?
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i recommend watching progamer VODs and copying what they do.
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On February 22 2015 05:39 DMarS wrote: Hello all, im´m having lots of troubles in TvP, im T. My bio vs zerg is very good, but my mech, tvp above tvz or tvt, is horrible, i lose my army, i dont have much game sense of tvp, i dont know when to attack, even i dont know how it woks a 5 fact push, or a flash build, dont know if expand, or what units to get exactly, i usually get a hell of tanks, then add more facs and get vultures for a push, but it all dies, sometimes even before i get to the p base. help?
you gotta learn timings and move out when you have an upgrade or army advantage. the timing is all based on scouting what the P is doing and your choice of build. its difficult to learn timings at first and your window is often pretty small, watch pro games like the other poster said.
how many tanks do you have in your push, ideally you should have 1 - 2 control groups with the rest in vults (gols and vessels too if he has arbiters). reinforce your push with vultures rallied to the front line. you need to learn how to rapidly change your factory rally locations using F-keys.
are you doing a slow push? slow push is an art that takes time to learn how to do properly. at cross positions it is generally not recommended but at close positions it can be a thing of beauty. hug the edge of the map and lay mines to prevent flanks on the other side. if you are just doing a normal push it is usually better to take out his expos rather than going for the main. you need to check P expansion timings. use scans. check when he is adding gateways / expanding and react accordingly. learn the timing windows.
keep the P in the dark, eliminate observers so he doesn't know when you are adding on facts or moving out.
if you get to super late game a maxed 3/3 terren mech ball is basically the most powerful late-game army. it will come down to control and how effective his arbiters can be.
are you using your vults correctly in the early - mid game to harrass and get map control?
do you have any replays?
your questions are too broad to really help you...
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In the TvP game until you place the CC it doesn't look too bad, some unnecessary SCV idle time but no big deal. One tip for your initial scouting scv, you should temporarily retreat from his main before his Dragoon finishes and come back later to scout his expansion timing. You will rarely be able to see something useful if you stay in his base and let it die as in this game. After you expand there is a lot of work to be done. First you should have gotten your ebay first instead of your 2nd factory because you almost knew nothing about the Protoss opening, you just assumed he fast expanded when he did in fact go 1 base robo. You were lucky that he did not go for fast reaver. Despite him getting an extremely late reaver and waiting a long time before harrassing he still did a lot of damage, because you build 3 turrets in your natural but none in your main. Again if you know nothing about protoss, be safe and get atleast 1 turret at your main and natural. What lost you the game though was most likely producing almost no SCVs and getting continuously supply blocked after you expanded. Before the reaver arrived, you were already 10 SCVs behind. This and the damage from the reaver harrass leads to the 100 supply difference before any real engagement happens.
The TvZ game was from a strategic point of view pretty bad, too. Your wall is not ling tight and even if it were, an aggressive 9 Pool would have probably still killed you because the SCVs wouldn't be in time to repair a wall at the natural. Again you knew nothing about the opponent because of a lacking scout. You didn't scout before the vulture was out. Yet you go for tank with siege mode as first units after your initial vulture and don't even build an armory. Zergs will most of time go mutas as fast as they can, so Goliaths should be your core unit. This Zerg didn't after much later, so you were lucky.
Generally watching those games, even with those questionable decisions, I would say you basically lose at the macro front. You are too often supply blocked and get a huge bank even though you have little SCVs. When you get supply blocked, don't just build one, you have like 1k minerals most of the time, so just build like 3.
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I'm still very bad at TvP almost all TvP are losses, no single one. And iCCup is full of toss users, and I just can play better, or not that i can notice. I get really mad at the end of the game because everybody tells me that i forgot turrets, and to mine, to expand, or to attack, to harass, as they would really know what to do. I don´t know how to poperly use vultures to harass, and to defend to. I just f****ng forget to build vessel, or to upgrade things or weapons and other tasks. Like emp´s research, to close the entrance of my 3rth exp, to put turrets, etc. i don´t know when to attack, how to harass, and always, everry time, i forget to scan the toss bases, to search for uncoming tech, like arbiter, carrier, dt, etc. My god, sometimes i really get mad, and when toss does recall at my base, i just quit. I would like someone to help me pls. Here´s a rep of a recent TvP of mine (nick's SBL-MarS). Could someone post some tutorial like the Stylish vods? tips like the bio ones in TvZ, that really made me level up my bio, but in tvp im struggling a lot. Thanks anyways to anyone who decide to reply and leave comments, help, any kind of thing that might help me realize what i need to do, and how works really TvP.
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And sorry, everybody told me to do 2 fac, some told me to get voltures, and other to get tanks, and marines, and i just kind of wanted to push. :l
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You should read the earlier comments in this thread they are really good.
I will agree though it took me months to get my first tvp win whereas I got wins in the other mu's right away.
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general stuff: to be fair, tvz is quite possibly the easiest matchup in bw, while tvp is possibly the hardest, at least at lower levels. i don't mean to discourage you, just the opposite, but you will keep struggling for a while. if you feel like you are not improving, watch some of your replays from a few months back. i'm sure you will see many mistakes you no longer make (which is improvement).
my qualifications: CLICK concerning the above replay, in chronological order as i am watching: 1. your wall is not zealot tight. RAX - SUPPLY is zealot tight, SUPPLY - RAX is not. place supply to the right of barracks if you want simcity. (tips for zealot tight, but marine can get through: CC - RAX // SUPPLY - CC // SUPPLY - FACT. you can combine these, for example: RAX - SUPPLY - CC // CC - RAX - SUPPLY - FACT) CLICK. scroll down for terran walls 2. your fact is really late. put it as soon as you get 100 gas. you might even want to put it down before 2nd supply 3. your build order is bad. you can use liqupedia for help: TvP builds i think you should focus on just one build order now. 4. you are already behind because of very bad opening. you could have made a tank by the time those first 2 goons arrive. 5. obvious mistakes: no clear early game plan, supply block, sitting SCVs 6. bad control. you just give him your first tank. that is your most important early game unit, and you trade it for nothing. ...
too many small mistakes to list. my feelings: you are way in over your head. you try to play 3 base, but you can barely maintain 1 base play somewhat okay. of course you feel lost. do you run? you are like a beginner runner who wants to run a marathon with no training, and every time you go out to run you want to run a whole marathon. if that was your goal, you would need godlike willpower to not give up before you actually do it. instead you should first run short distances pretty slowly, then you run more, then you can run faster, then you can mix it up, etc. delayed gratification might be important for success, but no gratification will definitely make you fail for good.
my suggestions: 1. keep it simple at first. play only one opening over and over. i recommend this based on your level: 3 tank rush you will probably lose to DTs, but this is very strong vs everything else. you will eventually learn to deal with DTs too with your own variation of this build. 2. have a game plan. don't worry too much about what your opponent is doing, because you are not confident and comfortable enough yet to react accordingly anyway. note: keep in mind, you should forget this when you are good enough! 3. all those things you say you forget... those are all mistakes you know you make. first try to prevent the mistakes you know you make. then you can worry about mistakes you don't know you make. then we can actually help you.
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winning tvp these days seems to be about defense. never push till u have at least 12 tanks and even then dont try to kill him. for lower levels (this is mostly knowledge by my observing pro streams/games) i suggest building a tank line towards ur third and constantly having a small group of vultures running around fantasy style. vultures are cheap and work as excellent multitaskers. focus on scanning a lot for tech and forming a massive tank army.
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On March 26 2015 23:27 slytown wrote: winning tvp these days seems to be about defense. never push till u have at least 12 tanks and even then dont try to kill him. for lower levels (this is mostly knowledge by my observing pro streams/games) i suggest building a tank line towards ur third and constantly having a small group of vultures running around fantasy style. vultures are cheap and work as excellent multitaskers. focus on scanning a lot for tech and forming a massive tank army.
You have to know when to attack. If the Protoss is greedy, then you should kill him with 3 tanks and 5 marines. If certain things happen in the midgame, then you can attack from 2 bases and 3 - 6 factories. Flash did it all of the time.
Adapt to what happens in the game and use your mind, don't just do the same late game doom push every game.
If every thing is even, then you can't go and kill him any more than he can go and kill you, so attacking no matter what is just as bad as sitting in your base until late game no matter what.
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im not great but heres a piece of advice for lower level tvp:
scout early
if your scout is denied, take absolutely no risks. your defense has to be bulletproof.
in my experience, most lower level P go for one of 3 things:
zealot rush
2 gate range
DT
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There is an immense amount of trial and error that goes into learning TvP initially. I recommend learning 2 base timing for cross map positions or close horizontal ones just to get a good sense how large a protoss army can get, and how you can punish their cheese or greed. You'll probably lose many games going for it, but if your ego can take it, you'll develop an intuition for how much punishment you can give at set intervals in the early game. It's probably the most time sensitive matchup there is in broodwar, timing is everything and an OCD-like obsession for positioning against the zeal/dragoon ratio. If you can survive early game aggression and match bases, you can often turtle and wait for 2/2 and keep scouting for the arbiter/carrier switch late game. Most protoss aren't very good at fighting against a maxed upgraded terran army and you can literally auto attack into victory at that stage.
Know your perimeters of defense, imagine what you would do as as protoss player, and know your mechanical limitations when you go about harassing protoss economy. Also, spider mines are fucking annoying. Use them.
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
One of the best peices of advice I can give is first you need to learn early game defense and scouting. When you hit a point you're not dying to protoss cheese, you've basically come to the point you won't lose early on to most Protoss players on iCCUP. The next thing you need to focus on is as Quiet said learning how to attack, but outside of that the one thing you need to most certainly master is recall defense. You can be miles ahead in a game and still lose if you react badly to recall, or most of the time by letting them recall you in the first place.
I've lost more games than I'm willing to count purely because I didn't defend well enough against recall. It's so important you learn to deal with it.
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Lol, these are great advices, i mean, i'm just losing every single tvp i play. Learning the early game it's a great thing i can practice for now. But it's simply.... God, it makes me almost hit the pc sometimes :l Now woud be very generous and great an advice on how to not rage, or get mad, or be stressed and under pressure every game :D Any help?
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