He won with one big attack.
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=56007&key=3c5a81
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ExBoshy
118 Posts
He won with one big attack. http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=56007&key=3c5a81 | ||
HyralGambit
2439 Posts
2. A standard FD build would've probably killed his greedy ass. Why would you go Nexus first on a 2 player map is beyond me. 3. Vultures and Mines are OP! Use them instead of marines. 4. He had an economic advantage/better macro throughout. Should've punished him for being greedy. 5. Play like Mind did vs Shuttle: | ||
Scarbo
294 Posts
On September 22 2014 09:49 HyralGambit wrote: 1. Don't go bio vs toss 2. A standard FD build would've probably killed his greedy ass. Why would you go Nexus first on a 2 player map is beyond me. 3. Vultures and Mines are OP! Use them instead of marines. 4. He had an economic advantage/better macro throughout. Should've punished him for being greedy. 5. Play like Mind did vs Shuttle: - To elaborate on the bio vs toss: it only works if you can catch him offguard on certain timings, the reason being bio is very weak vs storm and/or reavers (at least I think that's the reason, someone correct me). To check on FD (fake double) go to liquipedia. | ||
HyralGambit
2439 Posts
On September 22 2014 10:36 Scarbo wrote: Show nested quote + On September 22 2014 09:49 HyralGambit wrote: 1. Don't go bio vs toss 2. A standard FD build would've probably killed his greedy ass. Why would you go Nexus first on a 2 player map is beyond me. 3. Vultures and Mines are OP! Use them instead of marines. 4. He had an economic advantage/better macro throughout. Should've punished him for being greedy. 5. Play like Mind did vs Shuttle: - To elaborate on the bio vs toss: it only works if you can catch him offguard on certain timings, the reason being bio is very weak vs storm and/or reavers (at least I think that's the reason, someone correct me). To check on FD (fake double) go to liquipedia. Even so, if you want to punish a Nexus first with bio, build a bunker with your scout SCV and build mariens ffs. And the FD build on liquipedia is wrong; it's 11 rax/gas, not 12 rax/gas. | ||
Scarbo
294 Posts
On September 22 2014 10:46 HyralGambit wrote: Show nested quote + On September 22 2014 10:36 Scarbo wrote: On September 22 2014 09:49 HyralGambit wrote: 1. Don't go bio vs toss 2. A standard FD build would've probably killed his greedy ass. Why would you go Nexus first on a 2 player map is beyond me. 3. Vultures and Mines are OP! Use them instead of marines. 4. He had an economic advantage/better macro throughout. Should've punished him for being greedy. 5. Play like Mind did vs Shuttle: - To elaborate on the bio vs toss: it only works if you can catch him offguard on certain timings, the reason being bio is very weak vs storm and/or reavers (at least I think that's the reason, someone correct me). To check on FD (fake double) go to liquipedia. Even so, if you want to punish a Nexus first with bio, build a bunker with your scout SCV and build mariens ffs. And the FD build on liquipedia is wrong; it's 11 rax/gas, not 12 rax/gas. Yeah for sure build a bunker, I was talking about the general use of bio vs Protoss not in this particular situation. I didn't know about the FD being wrong. | ||
HyralGambit
2439 Posts
On September 22 2014 11:17 Scarbo wrote: Show nested quote + On September 22 2014 10:46 HyralGambit wrote: On September 22 2014 10:36 Scarbo wrote: On September 22 2014 09:49 HyralGambit wrote: 1. Don't go bio vs toss 2. A standard FD build would've probably killed his greedy ass. Why would you go Nexus first on a 2 player map is beyond me. 3. Vultures and Mines are OP! Use them instead of marines. 4. He had an economic advantage/better macro throughout. Should've punished him for being greedy. 5. Play like Mind did vs Shuttle: - To elaborate on the bio vs toss: it only works if you can catch him offguard on certain timings, the reason being bio is very weak vs storm and/or reavers (at least I think that's the reason, someone correct me). To check on FD (fake double) go to liquipedia. Even so, if you want to punish a Nexus first with bio, build a bunker with your scout SCV and build mariens ffs. And the FD build on liquipedia is wrong; it's 11 rax/gas, not 12 rax/gas. Yeah for sure build a bunker, I was talking about the general use of bio vs Protoss not in this particular situation. I didn't know about the FD being wrong. Yeah, Deep Six is stupid good vs 2 base Arbiters and 2 base Carriers. SoSPA Terrans should use it more often imo. | ||
quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
On September 22 2014 10:46 HyralGambit wrote: Show nested quote + On September 22 2014 10:36 Scarbo wrote: On September 22 2014 09:49 HyralGambit wrote: 1. Don't go bio vs toss 2. A standard FD build would've probably killed his greedy ass. Why would you go Nexus first on a 2 player map is beyond me. 3. Vultures and Mines are OP! Use them instead of marines. 4. He had an economic advantage/better macro throughout. Should've punished him for being greedy. 5. Play like Mind did vs Shuttle: - To elaborate on the bio vs toss: it only works if you can catch him offguard on certain timings, the reason being bio is very weak vs storm and/or reavers (at least I think that's the reason, someone correct me). To check on FD (fake double) go to liquipedia. Even so, if you want to punish a Nexus first with bio, build a bunker with your scout SCV and build mariens ffs. And the FD build on liquipedia is wrong; it's 11 rax/gas, not 12 rax/gas. No, it's not inherently wrong. There's a difference in style between 11/11, 11/12 and 12/12. You do 11/11 if you need a quicker factory and marines for defense (or offense), but your expo will be a bit later then, because you'll cut scvs for a short while and you'll spend more money on units. Usually 11/11 is done on maps without ramps/high ground/unwallable, 2 player maps, small maps, or when you think you're going to be attacked with some cheese, or when you want to be offensive vs for example 1g expo tech while not falling much behind in economy. 12/12 is done when you want to be more economic, since it lets scvs mine more and produces less units, so your expo is faster, which improves your economy even more. The difference between the two is that 11/11 is more aimed at safety or getting an advantage trough a strategic/tactical play (stronger/quicker offense or tech) in the early game, while 12/12 kicks in in the mid game giving you more units, but it's more vulnerable in early game. In 11/11 you have to make something happen with your units (defend well or do damage trough an attack) in the early game to make up for the loss in eco to be able to have a comparable result in the mid game as a 12/12. 12/12 is the opposite of course, you have a harder time defending and your attack is weaker in the early game, but the better economy translates into stronger mid game. 11/11 allows you to punish protoss more easily for things in the early game and is usually chosen by people that like to be active, while 12/12 allows you to do that in the mid game and is usually chosen by more passive terrans. That being said, there's not a toooo big difference betwen the two builds, it's usually a preference in style between different players. edit: Here's the Liquipedia link to the FD opening for the OP: FD (vs. Protoss) (there's even replays in there) | ||
HyralGambit
2439 Posts
On September 22 2014 20:03 quirinus wrote: Show nested quote + On September 22 2014 10:46 HyralGambit wrote: On September 22 2014 10:36 Scarbo wrote: On September 22 2014 09:49 HyralGambit wrote: 1. Don't go bio vs toss 2. A standard FD build would've probably killed his greedy ass. Why would you go Nexus first on a 2 player map is beyond me. 3. Vultures and Mines are OP! Use them instead of marines. 4. He had an economic advantage/better macro throughout. Should've punished him for being greedy. 5. Play like Mind did vs Shuttle: - To elaborate on the bio vs toss: it only works if you can catch him offguard on certain timings, the reason being bio is very weak vs storm and/or reavers (at least I think that's the reason, someone correct me). To check on FD (fake double) go to liquipedia. Even so, if you want to punish a Nexus first with bio, build a bunker with your scout SCV and build mariens ffs. And the FD build on liquipedia is wrong; it's 11 rax/gas, not 12 rax/gas. No, it's not inherently wrong. There's a difference in style between 11/11, 11/12 and 12/12. You do 11/11 if you need a quicker factory and marines for defense (or offense), but your expo will be a bit later then, because you'll cut scvs for a short while and you'll spend more money on units. Usually 11/11 is done on maps without ramps/high ground/unwallable, 2 player maps, small maps, or when you think you're going to be attacked with some cheese, or when you want to be offensive vs for example 1g expo tech while not falling much behind in economy. 12/12 is done when you want to be more economic, since it lets scvs mine more and produces less units, so your expo is faster, which improves your economy even more. The difference between the two is that 11/11 is more aimed at safety or getting an advantage trough a strategic/tactical play (stronger/quicker offense or tech) in the early game, while 12/12 kicks in in the mid game giving you more units, but it's more vulnerable in early game. In 11/11 you have to make something happen with your units (defend well or do damage trough an attack) in the early game to make up for the loss in eco to be able to have a comparable result in the mid game as a 12/12. 12/12 is the opposite of course, you have a harder time defending and your attack is weaker in the early game, but the better economy translates into stronger mid game. 11/11 allows you to punish protoss more easily for things in the early game and is usually chosen by people that like to be active, while 12/12 allows you to do that in the mid game and is usually chosen by more passive terrans. That being said, there's not a toooo big difference betwen the two builds, it's usually a preference in style between different players. edit: Here's the Liquipedia link to the FD opening for the OP: FD (vs. Protoss) (there's even replays in there) No kidding, but why not just do a standard rax + fe instead of a 12/12 if you want a more economic opening? Since you need to build 2 depots before factory with a 12/12, if you're going to die to a proxy 2 gate (which is becoming ridiculously common on even 4 player maps like FS), what difference does it make if you were to do a 12/12 and a rax fe? If you're going to take a risk, mind as well get the better reward out of it. The economic advantage between a successful rax fe is much greater than a half-assed FD. Maybe it's because of the current SoSPA map pool, but I have not seen any of the top Terrans do a 12/12 FD in over a year now... | ||
quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
Rax fe is a very demanding and hard build to execute properly. There are too many things that can go wrong, it's fragile. If you managed to do it somewhat successfully, you probably got lucky somewhere along the way, or are at least B-/B rank. I wouldn't recommend it to people under C, unless maybe if you get some sick mind game read in a series and you can scout/understand shit well. FD is much easier to execute, especially on the defensive, and offers more early tools to deal with things that protoss can do. If you're dying to a 2 gate with almost any opening you're doing something wrong, usually. (In my case, if I die to it, it's usually laziness to do things right, plus latency.) | ||
HyralGambit
2439 Posts
On September 23 2014 02:27 quirinus wrote: I wasn't discussing different openings, I was just saying that you can do FD with 11/11 and 12/12. Rax fe is a very demanding and hard build to execute properly. There are too many things that can go wrong, it's fragile. If you managed to do it somewhat successfully, you probably got lucky somewhere along the way, or are at least B-/B rank. I wouldn't recommend it to people under C, unless maybe if you get some sick mind game read in a series and you can scout/understand shit well. FD is much easier to execute, especially on the defensive, and offers more early tools to deal with things that protoss can do. If you're dying to a 2 gate with almost any opening you're doing something wrong, usually. (In my case, if I die to it, it's usually laziness to do things right, plus latency.) Yeah, FD all the way, Rax + Fe to mix it up is what I would recommend too. | ||
Sero
United States687 Posts
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quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
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arb
Noobville17915 Posts
On September 25 2014 18:58 quirinus wrote: True, it's not always easy to pull off a rush on nexus first with FD. If you even scout it in time. it doesnt matter if you scout it in time, 12/14nex(12 i think for sure) will have enough units to defend, even against a 2fact. and if you go 2fact you will be dead because of the lead they have. It's better to just take the disadvantage and play from there tbh. You can bunker rush if you scout far enough ahead though. | ||
quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
it's also much easier to set up a bunker if you scout it on the first try, and the marines arrive at his expo sooner, when it's less likely that he has a zealot out. your main goal is to kill as many probes as you can, to even out things. if you can even kill the nexus, then that's a big bonus. in that case you can even contain him with 2 bunkers a turret or two (make the ebay close to him so you can float it in his main to scout the tech, but not in the obvious position or shuttle path, then you float it to the contain to keep the vision of the ramp/high ground for the tanks or land to block the way to bunkers/tanks) and maybe 1-2 tanks, some mines and a few scvs to repair (in that case gotta scout the map for hidden expos, and keep doing it in case of shuttle dropping a probe). just make sure you don't over-commit to the contain and don't have defense home if a drop comes. if you scout their FE late, you can either: a) try to continue playing normally with a disadvantage b) try to do an attack. which will be very hard, gotta scout well what he's doing, in some cases you can't attack, in other you must attack c) a very rarely used strat, but can be very effective: go fast 3 base, like make a 3rd cc immediately at your 3rd - then place mines all around with a few vultures (sometimes in front of his base, sometimes at your 3rd and nat). try to scout the toss/delay his 3rd and maybe kill some probes or threaten a backstab if he goes out with his units. quickly tech to tanks and siege + ebay in case he's going fast obs + goon push. | ||
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