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so. i keep dying to one base bs. Need halp. Since the bw strategy thread has 0 theory crafting and the posts come sporadically I bet the quality control has simmered down a little.
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=56047 so he went 8 rax. I was pretty proud that I was able to recognize it. Then he did some medic marine BS with a dropship and I lost.
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=56048 This game was just...ugh. Totes thought he was gonna go 2 port wraith or some vulture drops or maybe even medic marine drops but I just crumbled.
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bro you got your rep links and descriptions mixed up. theres no 8rax, just you messing up by not scouting enough and making units before terran pushes. (lol at the hydra speed at 2nd game)
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It was an 8rax in the first replay, it was just a weird in base version with no pressure. You overreacted in that game, when you see the marines staying on the ramp, wait with your drone pull until he moves out. Use your second overlord to check if he is trying to get a bunker up near your natural. You delayed your gas too long, not losing tech timing is important. I am not sure but I think with a correctly played 3hatch you usually have muta building then the dropship arrives. But aside from that you saw a wraith and a medic up his ramp, so you had an idea what he is doing and could have placed your zerglings in the main and leave one at his natural to see if he just wants to do a frontal bust. 2 spores is overkill versus one wraith. The second game though is indeed just a matter of not scouting. you didn't have an overlord at his natural, so couldn't see any push coming. You wouldn't even know if he just vulture expanded.
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Zerglings and overlords outside of the base and sacrificial overlords if necessary, combined with a three hatchery build can make you safe against any Terran one base opening.
You won't die or fall behind, but you won't necessarily win by default either, depending on the Terran build order.
I used to win a lot vs 1 base gimmick builds as Zerg, but it took a while to get to that point. I had to lose a bunch first. After I got good against them, I was always glad when a Terran opened one base and thought he could trick me by denying scouting, because it was usually an easy win. I never figured out how to be safe vs everything from a 2 hatch build, so I would always change and go 3 hatch if I scouted a 1 base Terran - if I had started with 2 hatch.
Unfortunately I don't remember the flowchart I had for determining what to do, so all I can tell you is to go for 3 hatches, use lings and overlords, and keep thinking about how to "option select" your opponent. You will come up with a method eventually.
Some general tips, however:
Ground based 1 base all ins can be defeated by mass speedling. It doesn't matter if he's going 3 rax sunken bust, 2 rax with fast siege, etc. Just surround him when he attacks your 2 sunkens. If he never attacks, cut off reinforcements, counter attack his main, get more sunkens, and play like normal. He committed to lots of things from one base, so you can afford the zerglings. Once you go back to drone production, you will produce workers about five times as fast as he will.
Get your hydralisk den at the same time as your lair, and morph one or two hydralisks. Also have an evolution chamber ready. If it turns out to be a one base all in (which you see with a sacrificed overlord or lings at the front), you can do mass speedlings. Once your lair finishes, you have the option to go spire and lurker aspect.
If it turns out to be 2 port wraith, you will have 2 hydralisks for the first wraith(s). Then you can get a few more, get 2 spore colonies at each base, mass drones like crazy, and destroy him with hydra lurker. Or at the very least, take a third and play a macro game. But usually you can destroy him with hydra lurker.
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The general description of playing against a one base terran would be: - use overlord as much as possible to gain scouting information, should be able to [most of the time] get a strong sense of his build direction - go three hatch muta with a sim citied den presuming you cant exclude fast tech to anything but tank/vessel -win casually because your economy is vastly superior.
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On October 13 2014 03:00 Dazed_Spy wrote: The general description of playing against a one base terran would be: - use overlord as much as possible to gain scouting information, should be able to [most of the time] get a strong sense of his build direction - go three hatch muta with a sim citied den presuming you cant exclude fast tech to anything but tank/vessel -win casually because your economy is vastly superior.
I do not recommend 3 hatch muta vs 2 port wraith
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On October 13 2014 05:37 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 03:00 Dazed_Spy wrote: The general description of playing against a one base terran would be: - use overlord as much as possible to gain scouting information, should be able to [most of the time] get a strong sense of his build direction - go three hatch muta with a sim citied den presuming you cant exclude fast tech to anything but tank/vessel -win casually because your economy is vastly superior. I do not recommend 3 hatch muta vs 2 port wraith As long as you put down a den as I said, you shouldnt have any issues...
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On October 13 2014 07:44 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 05:37 vOdToasT wrote:On October 13 2014 03:00 Dazed_Spy wrote: The general description of playing against a one base terran would be: - use overlord as much as possible to gain scouting information, should be able to [most of the time] get a strong sense of his build direction - go three hatch muta with a sim citied den presuming you cant exclude fast tech to anything but tank/vessel -win casually because your economy is vastly superior. I do not recommend 3 hatch muta vs 2 port wraith As long as you put down a den as I said, you shouldnt have any issues...
It's nicer to just get the spores, drone like crazy, and then win with hydra lurker
The mutas just don't accomplish anything. There is no reason to get them.
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TLADT24917 Posts
On October 13 2014 09:07 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 07:44 Dazed_Spy wrote:On October 13 2014 05:37 vOdToasT wrote:On October 13 2014 03:00 Dazed_Spy wrote: The general description of playing against a one base terran would be: - use overlord as much as possible to gain scouting information, should be able to [most of the time] get a strong sense of his build direction - go three hatch muta with a sim citied den presuming you cant exclude fast tech to anything but tank/vessel -win casually because your economy is vastly superior. I do not recommend 3 hatch muta vs 2 port wraith As long as you put down a den as I said, you shouldnt have any issues... It's nicer to just get the spores, drone like crazy, and then win with hydra lurker The mutas just don't accomplish anything. There is no reason to get them. Don't forget about scourge though. Doubt players at lower level can micro enough to not lose their wraith that easily lol.
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On October 13 2014 09:07 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 07:44 Dazed_Spy wrote:On October 13 2014 05:37 vOdToasT wrote:On October 13 2014 03:00 Dazed_Spy wrote: The general description of playing against a one base terran would be: - use overlord as much as possible to gain scouting information, should be able to [most of the time] get a strong sense of his build direction - go three hatch muta with a sim citied den presuming you cant exclude fast tech to anything but tank/vessel -win casually because your economy is vastly superior. I do not recommend 3 hatch muta vs 2 port wraith As long as you put down a den as I said, you shouldnt have any issues... It's nicer to just get the spores, drone like crazy, and then win with hydra lurker The mutas just don't accomplish anything. There is no reason to get them. Hm? They accomplish exactly the same thing they always accomplish; they give you map and air control, allow you to drone, force turrets, keep the terran in his base, secure a third and tech. Wraiths are paper planes, once you have mutas out and overlord speed, the terran is stuck camping for *quite* a while.
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The spore>hydra/muta vs 2 port wraith is an argument of personal preference. I don't think either way is an inherently weaker response. It's about each player's style and familiarity of the timings for defending vs 2 port.
Just like ty2 I've found playing against 1 base terran pretty frusterating at times. But the key is scouting, as other have pointed out. 1 base terran relies largely on deception to be successful and the earlier you know what they're doing the less of an advantage they'll gain from a 1 base opening (if you know a proper response). Once I see a gas opening from terran with my scouting drone, I always set up an overlord along an edge of their main to sacrifice later if I'm unable to get enough info with lings. You could also consider getting burrow in response to 1 base terran (scouting, mass ling traps, delaying expansion)
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On October 13 2014 14:44 fearthequeen wrote: The spore>hydra/muta vs 2 port wraith is an argument of personal preference. I don't think either way is an inherently weaker response. It's about each player's style and familiarity of the timings for defending vs 2 port.
I'm not an expert, but I think this is true. I've seen Zerg users beat good Terrans like Mong, HiyA, and Sea, by going 3 hatch mutalisk in to 3 base hydralisk lurker vs 2 port wraith, and win. I didn't see the mutalisks accomplish much, though, but that could be my ignorance of that style.
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On October 23 2014 11:21 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 14:44 fearthequeen wrote: The spore>hydra/muta vs 2 port wraith is an argument of personal preference. I don't think either way is an inherently weaker response. It's about each player's style and familiarity of the timings for defending vs 2 port.
I'm not an expert, but I think this is true. I've seen Zerg users beat good Terrans like Mong, HiyA, and Sea, by going 3 hatch mutalisk in to 3 base hydralisk lurker vs 2 port wraith, and win. I didn't see the mutalisks accomplish much, though, but that could be my ignorance of that style.
Hidra/Lurk crushes the wraith oppening and it's an overall safer build.
If somehow terran builds enough units to secure a nat (tanks and marine after wraiths), you get 2 extra exps, drop and overrun him.
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Be careful opening with hydra/lurk on any kind of map with a cliff over the ledge. Wraith openings are commonly followed by dropship play since the terran doesn't want to let that starport go to waste. The terran will generally drop an scv off at an island and use his wraiths (possible valks too) to control the air and keep you from attempting to doom drop his bases and island expansions. Don't forget that the terrans who build up a control group of wraiths can easily harass your hydra/lurk opening much like a muta opening would harass a terran player.
Open with a spire and put the pressure on him instead.
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On October 23 2014 11:21 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 14:44 fearthequeen wrote: The spore>hydra/muta vs 2 port wraith is an argument of personal preference. I don't think either way is an inherently weaker response. It's about each player's style and familiarity of the timings for defending vs 2 port.
I'm not an expert, but I think this is true. I've seen Zerg users beat good Terrans like Mong, HiyA, and Sea, by going 3 hatch mutalisk in to 3 base hydralisk lurker vs 2 port wraith, and win. I didn't see the mutalisks accomplish much, though, but that could be my ignorance of that style. Yeah, I generally dont do much damage with it either. But remember, three hatch muta is primarily just about delaying the terran and forcing him to spend money on turrets and such. Obviously now a days with better muta micro and better builds/timings, vs a 1 rax fe you actually want to kill some scvs, turrets and marines, or he'll push out real fast. But I dont think you need to commit quite as much against a one base, as its more inherently fragile and every cost they put into dealing with your mutas is felt. Anyway, as said, its just the way I've always responded to it, I'm comfortable relying on my muta micro.
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You can always try protoss.
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On November 03 2014 13:34 dRaW wrote: You can always try protoss.
Best idea.
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You are most likely to beat a terran much stronger than you if he goes one base play because it requires a very good timing and micro and a zerg can easily deny his strat if he bust it. Like early dropship or 3 rax +1 or even worst 2 rax fact aca push.
I've got a good knowledge of it since it was the standard gameplay a long time ago, the most important is to know if he is going 2 rax or one rax gas.
In the case he walls and you not knowing what he is doing I would recommend that you go 2 hatch den making 3 4 hydra and go for spire in case of double starport, it's better to prevent it and this way you can somehow trick him into believing ure going for lurker. He can also trick you by walling and go for 3 rax +1, in this case you need to be careful when he goes out and be ready to put sunk.
If he goes 2 rax on one base, you can try to check his marine count to see if he goes for fact push or simply early medic. I believe 3 hatch muta is good vs 2 rax one base because you will have a good advantage on your eco compare to terran that can't fucked up losing units and still need to expand.
I believe it is also important that you do not make speed ling, because of the chances he pushes you with early medic, you won't have the eco to put sunk at the same time, and it will delay you a lot. Just make drone sunk until your tech is up.
But again checking his marine count is a good way to anticipate his strat. If you play a bit terran doing those kinds of strat I think you will get a good feeling on how to anticipate them because you will know the mind game terran is using to hide his bo.
edit : i have to disagree with gotunk here, hydralisk lurker instead of muta is a terrible way to deal with double starport because a good terran with good micro will easily pick up ur drone and hydra even with spore. Unless you are going for a 3 hatch hydra without lair but the problem with it is what if he goes for 2 rax fact 2 tank push? In 5min30 exactly terran goes with 10 marines 2 medic and 2 tank with siege upgrade done so good luck. What if he goes 3 rax? There is no way you can outnumber him with your hydralisk even on 3 hatch and knowing that your lair is delayed he will just expand and wall you with his marine. What if he goes for vulture tank bunker push? you will die. Muta is the opening that is able to deal with most of terran's tech efficiently.
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On November 04 2014 18:26 iFU.pauline wrote: You are most likely to beat a terran much stronger than you if he goes one base play because it requires a very good timing and micro and a zerg can easily deny his strat if he bust it. Like early dropship or 3 rax +1 or even worst 2 rax fact aca push.
I've got a good knowledge of it since it was the standard gameplay a long time ago, the most important is to know if he is going 2 rax or one rax gas.
In the case he walls and you not knowing what he is doing I would recommend that you go 2 hatch den making 3 4 hydra and go for spire in case of double starport, it's better to prevent it and this way you can somehow trick him into believing ure going for lurker. He can also trick you by walling and go for 3 rax +1, in this case you need to be careful when he goes out and be ready to put sunk.
If he goes 2 rax on one base, you can try to check his marine count to see if he goes for fact push or simply early medic. I believe 3 hatch muta is good vs 2 rax one base because you will have a good advantage on your eco compare to terran that can't fucked up losing units and still need to expand.
I believe it is also important that you do not make speed ling, because of the chances he pushes you with early medic, you won't have the eco to put sunk at the same time, and it will delay you a lot. Just make drone sunk until your tech is up.
But again checking his marine count is a good way to anticipate his strat. If you play a bit terran doing those kinds of strat I think you will get a good feeling on how to anticipate them because you will know the mind game terran is using to hide his bo.
edit : i have to disagree with gotunk here, hydralisk lurker instead of muta is a terrible way to deal with double starport because a good terran with good micro will easily pick up ur drone and hydra even with spore. Unless you are going for a 3 hatch hydra without lair but the problem with it is what if he goes for 2 rax fact 2 tank push? In 5min30 exactly terran goes with 10 marines 2 medic and 2 tank with siege upgrade done so good luck. What if he goes 3 rax? There is no way you can outnumber him with your hydralisk even on 3 hatch and knowing that your lair is delayed he will just expand and wall you with his marine. What if he goes for vulture tank bunker push? you will die. Muta is the opening that is able to deal with most of terran's tech efficiently.
You go hidra if you opened 3 hatch; if you did 2 hatch you are stuck. For starters, if you open 3 hatch you need to get a den and pump hidras anyway, if not, wraith will rape ur overlords long before mutas can defend them. With 2 hatch muta they pop out closely at the same time a wraith arrives to your base, with 3 hatch you get raped without a few hidras at first. Put your den in your nat to block vults that might want to sneak in (you need to scout this) You upgrade lurk first, if terran does any sort of push with no wraith you get a bunch of lurks, get speed lings and crush him. You follow up with hidra speed/evo/spores if he goes 2 port wraith. When you open 3 hatch lurk into hidra, you can afford to put down spores and lose a couple of drones and still be way ahead economically, you should saturate both bases heavily.
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