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After watching the recent Sponsored Matches that had Katrina, what do you guys think about it as a potential map for LSL3?
As a Terran player, I'm personally fine with it, especially if you saw Movie vs Larva which shows Katrina can produce some really epic PvZs. Plus we have maps like Bifrost 3 which promotes Terran dropplay (love the tank drops on that map), so as long as the map pool gives me good games, I don't mind it too much and it's been a while since Flash vs Stork GSI 2008 anyway...
In TvP, we've seen people like PianO, Last, Mind, and HiyA doing aggressive builds to push the 2 base Carrier play. However, recently, HiyA felt comfortable enough to play macro games vs Shuttle on it. HiyA even counter picked Katrina against Shuttle and was very confident that he could beat Shuttle even of a theoretical disadvantage map.
We have not really seen any of the greedy Double Armory Flash Builds, more early game aggression like Deep Six from Mind. However, if HiyA can adapt, why not others?
Thoughts?
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The thing you have to realize when you say Katrina is imbalanced TvP is the first half of the maps history Flash hadn't yet popularized his build on it(to counter the fast two base carrier) so the map is firmly(imo) more in Terrans favor than it is Protoss' after that build came out.
No real way to flank + tight chokes = non carrier nightmare.
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Only a small number of maps are actually imbalanced enough to significantly affect the win-loss ratio of the players. Many people base their assumptions about a map on a few features:
- Small chokes and high grounds favor "siege" tactics, which gives an advantage to Terran in TvP, Terran mech in TvZ, Zerg against bio in ZvT, and force Zerg into lurker play in ZvP.
- Wide open areas favor Protoss in PvT, large Zerg engagements against Protoss in ZvP, and bio over Zerg in TvZ.
- Wide open bases are good for vultures.
- Cliffs that impede units from quickly accessing another location or completely isolate another location from ground units entirely are good for carriers, guardians, battlecruisers.
- Maps that are bad for PvT will force Protoss to go carriers or 2-base arbiter, maps that are bad for TvZ will force Terran to go mech, maps that are bad for ZvP will force the Zerg to go lurker or hydra bust, maps that are bad for TvP will force Terran to go 2-fact or 5/6 fact, maps that are bad for PvZ will force Protoss to go 1-base, maps that are bad for ZvT will force Zergs to squirm wildly until they die.
Again, these are mostly assumptions, not rules. What makes a map "bad" is usually when a player who is used to a particular strategy cannot meet the objectives needed to execute that strategy, and feels forced to resort to something risky to compensate. Some maps, however, are genuinely bad because they don't encourage a style of play, they force it. For example, if you play TvZ on Destination, you may notice that the map sucks ass when it comes to going bio, because defilers and lurkers together can defend a whole area by cutting off a bridge or ramp. So when Terran goes mech, the Zerg can no longer control so much space with so few units, and in fact, the opposite occurs: Mech allows the Terran to control the bridges and edge ramps, which are the predominate features on the map. Additionally, the map allows you to build a zergling-proof wall in either location, making it easy to defend with a few marines while getting a factory.
In conclusion, cats are better than dogs.
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On October 24 2014 05:23 ninazerg wrote: Only a small number of maps are actually imbalanced enough to significantly affect the win-loss ratio of the players. Many people base their assumptions about a map on a few features:
- Small chokes and high grounds favor "siege" tactics, which gives an advantage to Terran in TvP, Terran mech in TvZ, Zerg against bio in ZvT, and force Zerg into lurker play in ZvP.
- Wide open areas favor Protoss in PvT, large Zerg engagements against Protoss in ZvP, and bio over Zerg in TvZ.
- Wide open bases are good for vultures.
- Cliffs that impede units from quickly accessing another location or completely isolate another location from ground units entirely are good for carriers, guardians, battlecruisers.
- Maps that are bad for PvT will force Protoss to go carriers or 2-base arbiter, maps that are bad for TvZ will force Terran to go mech, maps that are bad for ZvP will force the Zerg to go lurker or hydra bust, maps that are bad for TvP will force Terran to go 2-fact or 5/6 fact, maps that are bad for PvZ will force Protoss to go 1-base, maps that are bad for ZvT will force Zergs to squirm wildly until they die.
Again, these are mostly assumptions, not rules. What makes a map "bad" is usually when a player who is used to a particular strategy cannot meet the objectives needed to execute that strategy, and feels forced to resort to something risky to compensate. Some maps, however, are genuinely bad because they don't encourage a style of play, they force it. For example, if you play TvZ on Destination, you may notice that the map sucks ass when it comes to going bio, because defilers and lurkers together can defend a whole area by cutting off a bridge or ramp. So when Terran goes mech, the Zerg can no longer control so much space with so few units, and in fact, the opposite occurs: Mech allows the Terran to control the bridges and edge ramps, which are the predominate features on the map. Additionally, the map allows you to build a zergling-proof wall in either location, making it easy to defend with a few marines while getting a factory.
In conclusion, cats are better than dogs. I agree, hopefully as the Sponsor Matches go on, we'll see more players being encouraged to try out new styles of play. For example, Shuttle even went DTs into Arbiters against HiyA because HiyA was so used to Shuttle's Carrier play and hard countered it.
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Haven't seen any of the recent games on Katrina (so damn busy) but I don't have any problem with it from when it was used before. I wouldn't mind Blitz X / Bifrost 3 but fuck Python... seriously why?
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On October 24 2014 15:41 ii.blitzkrieg wrote: Haven't seen any of the recent games on Katrina (so damn busy) but I don't have any problem with it from when it was used before. I wouldn't mind Blitz X / Bifrost 3 but fuck Python... seriously why?
Why would you rather see Blitz X or Bifrost 3 over Python? Are you afraid of snakes?
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Ditto. I'd like to see Katrina in LoveTV Starleague 3 and am I bit sick of (and never liked playing on) Python. Yes, that is even considering that the best game of my favourite series of all time was played on it.
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Katrina and BiFrost gives us complex games.
Python spawn points are a bit too RNG for me.
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2 base Carrier still reigns supreme on Katrina, that's why every P still does it even in 2014 lol. Yes, Flash came out with his build and stomped all the Protosses like 6 years ago, but he was destroying them on every map because they have any experience vs his style.
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