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Got a few games I was watching and was a little at a loss to understand exactly why the outcome ended up the way it was...or as easy as it was.
Free v Bisu on Fighting Spirit - + Show Spoiler [Synopsis/Game Thoughts] +Short synopsis is Free expands, puts a little pressure on Bisu's nat, and after getting it up Bisu puts tons of pressure on free's nat very nearly winning the game. After holding both players grab their third. No serious harass of note. Despite loss of a reaver/shuttle and minimal damage Bisu seems to easily have army control and is constantly forcing free to play it safe back across his nat bridge. This ends up being something of a contain, and free harasses Bisu's thread, and while he gets a few probe kills here and there, doesn't do any crazy damage
Bisu eventually starts putting up cannons outside Free's nat going for bridge contain, noticing this free starts pre-storming some of Bisu's waiting army, and after a few pre-storms strolls across the bridges into the contain and steamrolls Bisu easily.
It's probably a combination of factors but I was quite surprised at the degree to which free steamrolled over a cannoned bridge contain, on what was equal eco. The only things I can think of is that Bisu may have been a bit wasteful attacking across the bridges a few times (though army size between the two remained similar enough free was afraid to cross his own bridge), effectiveness of a few decent pre-storms, or that Bisu has a larger than expected portion of army back...or a combination of these.
Thoughts?
Bisu v Larva on Circuit Breaker - + Show Spoiler [Synopsis/Game Thoughts] +Bisu opens usual sair/+1, realizes Larva is turtling on 4 base and damn near double expands to his third and fourth. He macros up while controlling the center to about 180 and then moves out and grabs a fifth base. Right about the time Bisu is maxing Larva decides he has turtled enough and starts running some lings around and annoys Bisu with some lings at his front as Bisu sets up his fifth.
For the next 5 minutes or so Bisu plays his usual style of pressuring at bases with no intention to commit unless there is obvious weakness, while simultaneously taking more bases, but Larva does a nice job getting 2-3 groups of lings out making it hard for Bisu to grab another base without moving his whole army to do so.
At 20:00 shit comes unglued for Bisu. Larva takes a few lurks and a group or two of Dra to deny Bisu's warping six at top right, and Bisu brings his army over to protect it. Larva then also attacks Bisu's 9' base with swarm/lurk/ling but behind a wall of cannons, templar, and reaver Bisu holds fine. Larva then attacks again, and with some flanking easily forces Bisu back into the 9 position. With Bisu's army small in size, larva opens the floodgates and starts sending stuff to Bisu's main/3rd. As soon as Larva sends in that wave it's clear the game is over, though Bisu does hang on for a few more minutes with some nice defense.
Bottom line question is what could/should Bisu have done differently here? Not get flanked? Was his army just in a bad position and perhaps should have been more up by the bridges to prevent the flank? But then if so it seems larva could just set up a quick swarm bridge contain and go knock out Bisu's 5th and maybe top right as well. Either way, thats a game I've watched where I don't quite understand what Bisu should have done differently.
Larva v Bisu on MatchPoint - + Show Spoiler [Synopsis/Game Thoughts] +Fairly straightforward game, Bisu is out with his first couple corsairs and zealots, and all of a sudden 15-25 lings show up and knock out Bisu's cannons. Bisu gets a few cannons up but the follow up hydra knock those down and it's clear Bisu is doomed.
All I was curious about here is why Bisu got so far behind. He cuts his losses okay given the severity of the ling counter, and making that many lings it seems ought to have set Larva back a good bit economically, but after that Larva casually outmacroed Bisu. Did he just have enough drones already before those lings to support 4-5 hatches of hydra that Bisu couldn't cope with given his loss of robo in ling counter delaying tech?
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Bisutopia18980 Posts
The thread hurts. I'll watch these tomorrow, cause I'm sick like that, and let you know info see anything.
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Japan11285 Posts
I watched and confused the first game for Bisu's FPV lol. That is until "Free" made DTs earlier than "Bisu". I became suspicious. ^^
Free's micro was godly in that game, I feel ashamed I missed this live. It looks to me like you need to watch the game from Bisu's perspective because even if Free is the God of Battle, that breakout was too easy.
On the second game, maybe Bisu should've tried harassing a bit? Larva's bases were untouched the whole game. Also, I felt that Bisu had too many probes vs too small of an army.
I can't comment on the last game yet.
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On December 18 2014 12:55 BisuDagger wrote: The thread hurts. I'll watch these tomorrow, cause I'm sick like that, and let you know info see anything.
LOL. I just understood that first sentence. At first all I could think is why does BD think this thread is bad...I spent like 15 mins writing it. Then I remembered your name is BD
Problem is, I usually know why Bisu wins when he does, its when he loses...
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Bisutopia18980 Posts
On December 19 2014 05:49 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2014 12:55 BisuDagger wrote: The thread hurts. I'll watch these tomorrow, cause I'm sick like that, and let you know info see anything. LOL. I just understood that first sentence. At first all I could think is why does BD think this thread is bad...I spent like 15 mins writing it. Then I remembered your name is BD Problem is, I usually know why Bisu wins when he does, its when he loses... That's the mystery isn't it!
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Japan11285 Posts
free harasses Bisu's thread I thought this was the cause of the "thread comment"
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Share your ideas now This thread is meant for all things WIP, so post screenshots of melee maps: general concepts, details like a backdoor or a very specific placement of a watchtower, but also map art ideas as well as nice tilesets or even custom texture sets.
Get feedback Don't be shy! Chances are that there are other map makers who can help you out as well as other people who are interested in your work and like to comment on stuff. Sharing your ideas and discussing them will help you become a better map maker!
Rules I cannot make rules - but i would really like to see comments that respect someone's work but really manage to be very concret and precise in their critique in case that someone is really bothered by some map "feature" . Also if you like something, try to explain what it is that you like and why! It will help the author produce even better stuff in the future!
NAT
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Game 1
It's probably a combination of factors but I was quite surprised at the degree to which free steamrolled over a cannoned bridge contain, on what was equal eco. The only things I can think of is that Bisu may have been a bit wasteful attacking across the bridges a few times (though army size between the two remained similar enough free was afraid to cross his own bridge), effectiveness of a few decent pre-storms, or that Bisu has a larger than expected portion of army back...or a combination of these.
Bisu lost atleast 2 reavers and a chunck of units to the pre-storms prior to the last battle. It also seems like Bisu has some units on the right side of the map (yellow dots appearing on the map), just right before Free exits the game, making me think that Bisu accidentally forgot a controlgroup or two of units. I believe that Bisu also left some units at his 3rd expo to defend eventual attacks from Free, like we saw earlier in the game.
Game 2
Bisu opens usual sair/+1, realizes Larva is turtling on 4 base and damn near double expands to his third and fourth. He macros up while controlling the center to about 180 and then moves out and grabs a fifth base. Right about the time Bisu is maxing Larva decides he has turtled enough and starts running some lings around and annoys Bisu with some lings at his front as Bisu sets up his fifth.
For the next 5 minutes or so Bisu plays his usual style of pressuring at bases with no intention to commit unless there is obvious weakness, while simultaneously taking more bases, but Larva does a nice job getting 2-3 groups of lings out making it hard for Bisu to grab another base without moving his whole army to do so.
At 20:00 shit comes unglued for Bisu. Larva takes a few lurks and a group or two of Dra to deny Bisu's warping six at top right, and Bisu brings his army over to protect it. Larva then also attacks Bisu's 9' base with swarm/lurk/ling but behind a wall of cannons, templar, and reaver Bisu holds fine. Larva then attacks again, and with some flanking easily forces Bisu back into the 9 position. With Bisu's army small in size, larva opens the floodgates and starts sending stuff to Bisu's main/3rd. As soon as Larva sends in that wave it's clear the game is over, though Bisu does hang on for a few more minutes with some nice defense.
Bisu's opening actually put him at an advantage, he did forget zealot legspeed which put him back. The way the Circuit Breaker is built with the double small brides and plateau to the mineral-only makes it very easy for Zerg to defend Protoss attacks. Jaedong demonstrated this plenty of times. I believe that Bisu felt he had to play more defensively/passive for an amount of time due to the lack of leg-speed. He would be surrounded to easily by zerglings. If Bisu were do to anything different it would be going for shuttle harrass with either DT's or HT's/Zealots. Bisu also has to commit after taking is 4th otherwise Zerg will be too strong on CB.
Game 3
Fairly straightforward game, Bisu is out with his first couple corsairs and zealots, and all of a sudden 15-25 lings show up and knock out Bisu's cannons. Bisu gets a few cannons up but the follow up hydra knock those down and it's clear Bisu is doomed.
The lings came prior to the 4th and 5th hatch. Larva produced 1 pair of lings to chase to the probe early on. Larva having played much with Bisu knows that Bisu likes to harrass with his first 3 zealots so instead of making 6 lings early on, he will have around 18-24 when speed finishes (Just around when spire starts). It's about gameplan and what has happend before (I remember reading somewhere that Larva was Bisu's personal practice partner at SKT and I assume that they have played quite some matches on MP - which means that Larva probably have more than just normal insight to what Bisu usually does.) You could argue that Larva got a bit lucky with his ling scout just before the bust. My opinion is that it was very well played by Larva and it was nothing out of the ordinary. The attack of the natural also happens after Bisu has gotten his reaver + shuttle - which means that Larva already has his 4th and 5th hatch up, he can proceed just to make drones after the attack since he's already far ahead.
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