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1) Liquipedia seems split on whether Detection range is equal to Sight range, or if it's simply 11 for all mobile detectors and 7 for all static detectors.
It says it's the latter here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Detection
But it says Detection range is equal to Sight range here and here:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Upgrades#Sight_Upgrades http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Overlord (under Antennae)
So, which is it? Pretty sure it's 11/7, but confirmation would be nice.
2) Assuming it's 11/7... why would anyone shell out 150 min 150 gas on Sight upgrades for Detectors (or anything else), if all it does is increase Sight range by 2, no Detection range improvement?
Seems like the worst value in an upgrade this side of 200/200 for the Scarab Capacity upgrade. So what's the point of Sight upgrades then? Does anyone ever buy them?
3) Again assuming that it's 11/7... Why *isn't* Detection range equal to Sight range?
I mean, poor static detectors (towers)... they can't move AND their detection field only covers about 40% as much area (14x14 vs 22x22) as that of a Mobile detector? Bleah.
I can think of a couple reasons why it's set up this way (albeit with inconsistencies), but it'd be interesting to hear others' takes on it (if we're putting on our game designer hats for a sec).
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It was my understanding that observer range upgrade only increased its vision range and that its detection range was already beyond its vision.
And therefore I presume the same is true of the overlord. The science vessel has no sight upgrade but seemingly has detection range of 11 apparently so it is 11/7.
I don't think anyone bothers getting the sight range upgrade for overlords or observers, the speed upgrades are far more useful.
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230 views, 1 reply? Looks like I stumped everyone except Jello, lol.
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Practically the only good sight upgrade in this game is that of the ghost since it has an added benefit of increasing nuke range (which has nothing to do with sight range)
The scout is probably the most frivolous one lol
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On December 30 2014 20:19 Probemicro wrote: Practically the only good sight upgrade in this game is that of the ghost since it has an added benefit of increasing nuke range (which has nothing to do with sight range)
Given how little ghosts get used, and how many upgrades they seem to need to be fully effective (sight, cloak, lockdown), maybe it wouldn't have been such a bad thing if they just came with the ocular implants, i.e. longer sight and nuke range.
The scout is probably the most frivolous one lol
Yah. I just don't understand the point of that one at all, beyond trying to live up to the name 'scout'.
Even though P actually uses corsairs for scouting (cheaper, faster, available earlier).
Scout and corsair should switch names, lol.
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The most interesting question for me (and the one no one's touched on) is: Why isn't Detection range equal to Sight range?
Were they very worried you'd be able to cover your entire base(s) with range 10 or 11 static detection for cheap or something? (it's not that cheap, except for T). Not sure.
Guess it makes sense for static detectors to not be = to sight range, but not mobile. I'm thinkin' the sight upgrades should mean something, instead of being pointless.
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On December 30 2014 20:19 Probemicro wrote: Practically the only good sight upgrade in this game is that of the ghost since it has an added benefit of increasing nuke range (which has nothing to do with sight range)
The scout is probably the most frivolous one lol In my experience, overlord/observer sight range is useful for maintaining/busting lurker contains.
On January 02 2015 09:47 [[Starlight]] wrote: I'm thinkin' the sight upgrades should mean something, instead of being pointless. Because in a lurker contain situation, my overlord's increased sight range usually reaches beyond that of my forward units (burrowed lurkers) and can spot observers before the observers can spot the lurkers. That makes sniping them easier.
In the opposite scenario, an observer with vision will see lurkers while the overlord cannot see IT, unless the Zerg also got the sight range upgrade. Even if the Zerg did get the upgrade, it would necessitate that the lurkers be moved back further, for an observer parked on top of a cannon now can see much further than before and is not cost-effective to snipe. It can also see scourge coming to snipe it from a greater distance. Again, this is because your detection in this case is at the front of your army/position.
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If the toss is getting lurker contained while the zerg is actually getting overlord vision ups of all things, the toss is already at a disadvantage anyway since he has allowed himself to be contained for so long with the lack of zeal/storms while zerg just grab more bases.
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On December 30 2014 20:19 Probemicro wrote: Practically the only good sight upgrade in this game is that of the ghost since it has an added benefit of increasing nuke range (which has nothing to do with sight range)
woah can't believe your saying that as protoss. sight upgrade for observers helps in scouting, detection and vs obs snipes. 150/150 is a small investment for the profit it gives.
On January 04 2015 09:04 Probemicro wrote: If the toss is getting lurker contained while the zerg is actually getting overlord vision ups of all things, the toss is already at a disadvantage anyway since he has allowed himself to be contained for so long with the lack of zeal/storms while zerg just grab more bases. Breaking lurker used to happen in almost every pvz back in the 1base days. still today, a lurker contain does not instantly mean that protoss lost.. at least if you have obs sight range^^
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150/150 is only small cost mid-late game, even then first ups to go for will always be obs mobility
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On January 05 2015 20:23 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2014 20:19 Probemicro wrote: Practically the only good sight upgrade in this game is that of the ghost since it has an added benefit of increasing nuke range (which has nothing to do with sight range) woah can't believe your saying that as protoss. sight upgrade for observers helps in scouting, detection and vs obs snipes. 150/150 is a small investment for the profit it gives. How does it help observers with detection if detection range is 11 for mobile detectors regardless of whether they have the sight upgrade or not? Sure, w/out the sight upgrade I guess you need a spotter out front to get the full 11 detection range (goon, 'sair, whatever), but hey, did you really want to lead with your observer anyway? That would seem to lend itself to getting your obs sniped more easily.
TBF, Liquipedia is confused on whether sight range = detection range, but the Blizzard SC Compendium says it's 11 for mobile detectors regardless of upgrades. No one has said different, if you are then you're the first. Is the Bliz Compendium wrong? It's possible... has anyone tested it?
(fwiw, I think it'd be great if it were wrong, 'cuz if sight range = detection range, then the sight upgrade would be more meaningful for what you pay).
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Detection and sight range are definitely separate variables, same for attack range and even nuke range.
I would think a toss that proactively keeps their corsairs alive and active throughout the game in pvz ala bisu would not have much use for obs vision ups. Usually most toss lost their corsairs by mid late game, which is about the time you have enough resources to get obs vision
And I would argue that conscentiously microing your obs during battles to avoid getting sniped is more important than that+2 vision ups. Like that ups is going to help you avoid absentmindedly a moving your army obs into a spore colony
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On January 05 2015 21:11 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2015 20:23 Piste wrote:On December 30 2014 20:19 Probemicro wrote: Practically the only good sight upgrade in this game is that of the ghost since it has an added benefit of increasing nuke range (which has nothing to do with sight range) woah can't believe your saying that as protoss. sight upgrade for observers helps in scouting, detection and vs obs snipes. 150/150 is a small investment for the profit it gives. How does it help observers with detection if detection range is 11 for mobile detectors regardless of whether they have the sight upgrade or not? Sure, w/out the sight upgrade I guess you need a spotter out front to get the full 11 detection range (goon, 'sair, whatever), but hey, did you really want to lead with your observer anyway? That would seem to lend itself to getting your obs sniped more easily. TBF, Liquipedia is confused on whether sight range = detection range, but the Blizzard SC Compendium says it's 11 for mobile detectors regardless of upgrades. No one has said different, if you are then you're the first. Is the Bliz Compendium wrong? It's possible... has anyone tested it? (fwiw, I think it'd be great if it were wrong, 'cuz if sight range = detection range, then the sight upgrade would be more meaningful for what you pay).
Well Liquipedia says: "Increases the sight and detection range of a specific unit by 2". So both increases. I did not check this out for sure by myself, but that's what I've always thought also.
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On January 09 2015 02:12 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2015 21:11 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 05 2015 20:23 Piste wrote:On December 30 2014 20:19 Probemicro wrote: Practically the only good sight upgrade in this game is that of the ghost since it has an added benefit of increasing nuke range (which has nothing to do with sight range) woah can't believe your saying that as protoss. sight upgrade for observers helps in scouting, detection and vs obs snipes. 150/150 is a small investment for the profit it gives. How does it help observers with detection if detection range is 11 for mobile detectors regardless of whether they have the sight upgrade or not? Sure, w/out the sight upgrade I guess you need a spotter out front to get the full 11 detection range (goon, 'sair, whatever), but hey, did you really want to lead with your observer anyway? That would seem to lend itself to getting your obs sniped more easily. TBF, Liquipedia is confused on whether sight range = detection range, but the Blizzard SC Compendium says it's 11 for mobile detectors regardless of upgrades. No one has said different, if you are then you're the first. Is the Bliz Compendium wrong? It's possible... has anyone tested it? (fwiw, I think it'd be great if it were wrong, 'cuz if sight range = detection range, then the sight upgrade would be more meaningful for what you pay). Well Liquipedia says: "Increases the sight and detection range of a specific unit by 2". So both increases. I did not check this out for sure by myself, but that's what I've always thought also. It doesn't increase the detection range, only the sight range.
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On January 09 2015 02:36 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2015 02:12 Piste wrote:On January 05 2015 21:11 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 05 2015 20:23 Piste wrote:On December 30 2014 20:19 Probemicro wrote: Practically the only good sight upgrade in this game is that of the ghost since it has an added benefit of increasing nuke range (which has nothing to do with sight range) woah can't believe your saying that as protoss. sight upgrade for observers helps in scouting, detection and vs obs snipes. 150/150 is a small investment for the profit it gives. How does it help observers with detection if detection range is 11 for mobile detectors regardless of whether they have the sight upgrade or not? Sure, w/out the sight upgrade I guess you need a spotter out front to get the full 11 detection range (goon, 'sair, whatever), but hey, did you really want to lead with your observer anyway? That would seem to lend itself to getting your obs sniped more easily. TBF, Liquipedia is confused on whether sight range = detection range, but the Blizzard SC Compendium says it's 11 for mobile detectors regardless of upgrades. No one has said different, if you are then you're the first. Is the Bliz Compendium wrong? It's possible... has anyone tested it? (fwiw, I think it'd be great if it were wrong, 'cuz if sight range = detection range, then the sight upgrade would be more meaningful for what you pay). Well Liquipedia says: "Increases the sight and detection range of a specific unit by 2". So both increases. I did not check this out for sure by myself, but that's what I've always thought also. It doesn't increase the detection range, only the sight range.
You made me test this... The detection range DOES increase with the upgrade.. and so does the sight range.
Detection range is longer without the upgrade, but it's even longer with the upgrade.
I tested it by moving observer outside the detection AND sight range of lurker, testing with corsairs that the lurker was indeed undetected. after the upgrade I was able to see the lurker.
both increase.
damn you made me question myself even tho I've upgraded it thousand times to break out of lurker contain
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On January 09 2015 05:00 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2015 02:36 jello_biafra wrote:On January 09 2015 02:12 Piste wrote:On January 05 2015 21:11 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 05 2015 20:23 Piste wrote:On December 30 2014 20:19 Probemicro wrote: Practically the only good sight upgrade in this game is that of the ghost since it has an added benefit of increasing nuke range (which has nothing to do with sight range) woah can't believe your saying that as protoss. sight upgrade for observers helps in scouting, detection and vs obs snipes. 150/150 is a small investment for the profit it gives. How does it help observers with detection if detection range is 11 for mobile detectors regardless of whether they have the sight upgrade or not? Sure, w/out the sight upgrade I guess you need a spotter out front to get the full 11 detection range (goon, 'sair, whatever), but hey, did you really want to lead with your observer anyway? That would seem to lend itself to getting your obs sniped more easily. TBF, Liquipedia is confused on whether sight range = detection range, but the Blizzard SC Compendium says it's 11 for mobile detectors regardless of upgrades. No one has said different, if you are then you're the first. Is the Bliz Compendium wrong? It's possible... has anyone tested it? (fwiw, I think it'd be great if it were wrong, 'cuz if sight range = detection range, then the sight upgrade would be more meaningful for what you pay). Well Liquipedia says: "Increases the sight and detection range of a specific unit by 2". So both increases. I did not check this out for sure by myself, but that's what I've always thought also. It doesn't increase the detection range, only the sight range. You made me test this... The detection range DOES increase with the upgrade.. and so does the sight range. Detection range is longer without the upgrade, but it's even longer with the upgrade. I tested it by moving observer outside the detection AND sight range of lurker, testing with corsairs that the lurker was indeed undetected. after the upgrade I was able to see the lurker. both increase. damn you made me question myself even tho I've upgraded it thousand times to break out of lurker contain It seems you are correct, you made me test it too lol. Damn, never knew that.
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On January 09 2015 05:00 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2015 02:36 jello_biafra wrote:On January 09 2015 02:12 Piste wrote:On January 05 2015 21:11 [[Starlight]] wrote:On January 05 2015 20:23 Piste wrote:On December 30 2014 20:19 Probemicro wrote: Practically the only good sight upgrade in this game is that of the ghost since it has an added benefit of increasing nuke range (which has nothing to do with sight range) woah can't believe your saying that as protoss. sight upgrade for observers helps in scouting, detection and vs obs snipes. 150/150 is a small investment for the profit it gives. How does it help observers with detection if detection range is 11 for mobile detectors regardless of whether they have the sight upgrade or not? Sure, w/out the sight upgrade I guess you need a spotter out front to get the full 11 detection range (goon, 'sair, whatever), but hey, did you really want to lead with your observer anyway? That would seem to lend itself to getting your obs sniped more easily. TBF, Liquipedia is confused on whether sight range = detection range, but the Blizzard SC Compendium says it's 11 for mobile detectors regardless of upgrades. No one has said different, if you are then you're the first. Is the Bliz Compendium wrong? It's possible... has anyone tested it? (fwiw, I think it'd be great if it were wrong, 'cuz if sight range = detection range, then the sight upgrade would be more meaningful for what you pay). Well Liquipedia says: "Increases the sight and detection range of a specific unit by 2". So both increases. I did not check this out for sure by myself, but that's what I've always thought also. It doesn't increase the detection range, only the sight range. You made me test this... The detection range DOES increase with the upgrade.. and so does the sight range. Detection range is longer without the upgrade, but it's even longer with the upgrade. I tested it by moving observer outside the detection AND sight range of lurker, testing with corsairs that the lurker was indeed undetected. after the upgrade I was able to see the lurker. both increase. damn you made me question myself even tho I've upgraded it thousand times to break out of lurker contain Holy crap... so you're sayin' with the Sight upgrade, ovies and obs have a sight range of 11, and a detection range of 13?!
That's helllllla long (TWSS).
On the plus side, that makes the obs and ovie Sight upgrades worth it, at least some of the time.
On the down side, I now feel bad for Sci Vessels, which don't have a Sight upgrade.
Oh, and now static detection well and truly looks like crap by comparison.
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Well hang on Starlight, aren't we kind of assuming that it works the same way for Overlords as well?
Oh and wouldn't it be nuts if the sight range upgrade for Ghosts and Scouts also gave a +2 from 0 detection that we don't know about because we never bothered to check?
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On January 09 2015 21:58 Mirabel_ wrote: Oh and wouldn't it be nuts if the sight range upgrade for Ghosts and Scouts also gave a +2 from 0 detection that we don't know about because we never bothered to check? wat?
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On January 09 2015 21:58 Mirabel_ wrote: Well hang on Starlight, aren't we kind of assuming that it works the same way for Overlords as well?
Oh and wouldn't it be nuts if the sight range upgrade for Ghosts and Scouts also gave a +2 from 0 detection that we don't know about because we never bothered to check? That would be pretty nuts indeed, I highly doubt that's the case though.
I will check now whether it's the same case for overlords.
Edit: Yes, overlord sight upgrade increases its detection range too.
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