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Um.. Hi?
I would like to start playing online BW, but I'm kinda lost with how protoss works. I follow alot of afreeca streams but Im afraid I could not execute same builds like those guys.
I mean I can build the buildings in the certain order, but are there any which should ba "safe" ? vs P,Z and T?
Thanks
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Croatia9353 Posts
Moved to BW Strategy.
Also, make sure you read the Strategy Forum Guidelines. I will keep your thread open, but please edit it to include more information after you've read the guidelines.
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Japan11285 Posts
You can always look up LP for some builds.
I think some safe builds would be 2 gate expand for PvT, Sair/DT for PvZ and 2 gate goon/reaver for PvP.
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PvT:
1 gate exp. Then get a second gateway, then a robo, then an observatory and a third gateway.
PvZ: Forge expand. Get a stargate, then a bunch of templars, then some zealots and dragoons and eventually add observers
PvP: 1 base reaver dragoon, then expand, then get more gateways and templars.
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Agree w/ Vodtoast, except that for PvP, if you want a safe reaver build, you should go gate robo gate, then build a shuttle as your observatory is building and get obs before any reavers, otherwise the fastest possible dt build will kill you. Obviously, if you are able to scout your opponent going fast robo you could safely get your reavers first then obs.
On the other hand, if you want a build that fairly strong in pvp that will net you a lot of wins at the lower levels while sacrificing the safety of the fast robo build above, just do the fastest possible dt into expand which is: 13 core, zealot, citadel, zealot, dragoon, archive + 2nd gateway, 1 more goon, 2 dt, then either harrass/scout with both and expand or if you know he's doing dt expand harrass with one and block ramp with other. Either harrass or deny his expansion until he has obs. If you survive his attack, you'll be far ahead economically. After the dt harrass, you transition to temps w/ storm, get your goon range and plus 1, and buy time for your robo+obs tech with cannons for detection against any counter dt attacks. Then simply macro and win.
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2gate mass zealots until hes dead or your dead
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I actually like the 2 gate dragoon opening for PvT. A lot of those lowbies are starting to figure out how to do crude fake double timing pushes, and if your efficiency isn't that great, 1 gate won't give you enough units to combat it. 2 gateways will crush it though, and then you can expand, get your robo, get your observatory, and then add a couple more gates, or if you're feeling really greedy for crystals, expand to a 3rd base before getting more gateways.
I can't say these are that great of openings, but I don't see why they won't work against nooby players.
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just double proxy gate every single game like every other P on iccup.
but seriously,
PvZ - FFE into +1 sair is great.
PvT 12 Nex or 1 Gate Exp (with DT rush as an ace up your sleeve, its an easy build to learn and great for getting quick wins)
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Russian Federation376 Posts
pvp: 2gateway zl pvz: 2 gateway zl pvt: 2gateway(goons)
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Nice gonna start practice that ! Thx alot for time and effOrt )
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Canada10898 Posts
I don't know about starting 12 Nex in PvT unless you want to learn about how to defend against bunker rushes with probes only. 1 gate (my preference) or 2 gate expand is great- but if you do 1 gate, learning how to attack-retreat micro with your goons is a MUST or you will get run over by 1 or 2 Fac early push outs by Terran.
I prefer 1 gate robo in PvP, but be prepared to defend against zealot rushes and dt rushes.
Fast Expand is standard in PvZ, I don't really know how you transition out of 2 gate zealots. But be prepared of dying to all manner of early game shenanigans until you figure out how to wall properly and scout/understand what you are scouting for Zerg builds- early pools indicators for speedling runbys or else dying to 2 base hydra busts or early mutalisks. Once you get better at reading what the Zerg is doing, the matchup becomes a lot easier, but I struggled to get out of the early game for awhile.
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On April 07 2015 08:17 f10eqq wrote: Agree w/ Vodtoast, except that for PvP, if you want a safe reaver build, you should go gate robo gate, then build a shuttle as your observatory is building and get obs before any reavers, otherwise the fastest possible dt build will kill you. Obviously, if you are able to scout your opponent going fast robo you could safely get your reavers first then obs.
On the other hand, if you want a build that fairly strong in pvp that will net you a lot of wins at the lower levels while sacrificing the safety of the fast robo build above, just do the fastest possible dt into expand which is: 13 core, zealot, citadel, zealot, dragoon, archive + 2nd gateway, 1 more goon, 2 dt, then either harrass/scout with both and expand or if you know he's doing dt expand harrass with one and block ramp with other. Either harrass or deny his expansion until he has obs. If you survive his attack, you'll be far ahead economically. After the dt harrass, you transition to temps w/ storm, get your goon range and plus 1, and buy time for your robo+obs tech with cannons for detection against any counter dt attacks. Then simply macro and win.
An observer is included in standard 1 base goon reaver
A lot of those lowbies are starting to figure out how to do crude fake double timing pushes, and if your efficiency isn't that great, 1 gate won't give you enough units to combat it
So he should learn to be efficient When I started playing this game, 1 gate exp vs 2 fact and FD is what forced me to learn to micro - in RTS generally, not just in BW. It will also teach good macro, as getting psi blocked, or delaying the second gateway, the robotics, or the observatory by as little as 5 seconds can cause a loss.
2 gate, on the other hand, is just less economic and places a handicap on the Protoss that he can not recover from with skill, unlike the problem of 1 gate, which can be solved with skill, even against a good Terran. 2 Gate is a map specific opening that needs to be part of a greater strategy. If you want to force the Terran to get at least 3 or 4 factories before taking his third on a map like Tau Cross, then you can open with 2 gate.
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Korea (South)11557 Posts
do you really expect a D rank player to have the apm and the multi-task to micro vs a 2fac off 1 gate?
2 gate robo is probably the safest build vs terran, and if the terran does any 1 fac rush (gundam, fake double) or 2 fact he can learn to play mid to late game
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I play StarCraft 2 on diamond/master level so I know at least the basics for BW, but I will rather pick safer builds
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On April 10 2015 19:31 CaucasianAsian wrote: do you really expect a D rank player to have the apm and the multi-task to micro vs a 2fac off 1 gate?
2 gate robo is probably the safest build vs terran, and if the terran does any 1 fac rush (gundam, fake double) or 2 fact he can learn to play mid to late game
2 gate robo as a macro opening is suicide
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Canada10898 Posts
On April 10 2015 19:31 CaucasianAsian wrote: do you really expect a D rank player to have the apm and the multi-task to micro vs a 2fac off 1 gate?
2 gate robo is probably the safest build vs terran, and if the terran does any 1 fac rush (gundam, fake double) or 2 fact he can learn to play mid to late game Well, you will likely die to that particular build a few times, but you will get into a good advantage vs all other Terran builds- then at some point, you strictly practice goon micro while macroing and then you're golden. As a low D player, I tried 2 gate robo, but you get so far behind. My best success as a mid D player was switching to 1 gate expand and then once everything else was working except 2 fac and FD pushes, I buckled down and learned hold-position micro.
If 2 gate robo'ing, I would think bulldogging on reverse ramp maps would be a better choice- though that can be pretty micro intensive too.
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About PVT 1 gate vs 2 gate
Ultimately it comes down to the same old argument. Whether newer players should start with with safer builds so they can make it to Mid/late game (maybe at a slight disadvantage) or should they do more marco oriented build so they will have more of an advantage should they survive
2 gating allow you to double expand vs terrans whereas if you 1 gate you have to be quite careful to as you are vulnerable to drops/vultures. A quick ob will help you decide but I think compared with 2 gating your 3rd will definitely be slower.
Given that PvT Is quite P favoured at the lower levels and that quite a few terrans do opt for 2 factory/strong FD at the lower levels, I personally feel it's more feasible to start off with 2 gate. Of course you can always do both and see which opening you like the most.
I also don't think that you will auto-win vs 2 fact even if you 2 gate robo. There are a few ways to do 2 gate vs terran. If you opt for the slower one (i,e gate-robo-gate) then really your 2nd gate won't give you a lot (1 goon usually) compared to 1 gate builds, what it does it is that it gives you better buffer/reinforcement after deflecting attacks. You still need to have good micro to stop aggressions.
At the higher levels however, I agree that one gating is generally the way to go nowadways.
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make probes constantly dont expand too late hotkey your buildings use F keys to hotkey the map so you can transfer probes (maybe units too) practice other races vs your matchup to learn timings
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Hey! Awesome thread, glad that you are getting all of your questions answered, happy to see this many replys as well. All the replys so far have been really solid advice. My only advice would be I would def. stear away from opening with 2Gateway Zealot builds until you have better understanding of how to pressure / micro a little better.
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Russian Federation376 Posts
i think on low ranks P >>>> T, and dosnt matter what biuld u use -> better 2gate nexus, or 2gate obs. just play mass from 3 base(with 1 gaz), scout with obs, kill mines on map = ez win in pvz, if i know about z level(his lvl less my lvl) i use 2gate(cors nexus or nexus cors depends zerg strategy).
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