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Been playing against this guy pretty often. He mixes up his builds a bit and I'm sticking to trying to master one (2gate range into expand)(so that I'm safe from that fd push). One push he's been doing inparticular I'm having a lot of trouble with. He pushes with mass tanks off 2 bases... I feel like my macro was pretty solid for the most part... After a while it does start to mess up but I feel convinced that my problem stems less from bad macro and more so from me doing something incorrectly or not knowing about something.
Here's the most recent game between me and him. http://static.iccup.com/upload/replays/user/1115212.rep
I'm really unsure of how to hold off this kind of attack. What are some adjustments I can make in my build that would allow me to hold this off? Any tips would be hugely appreciated since I feel like I'm running into a brick wall at the moment. : /
(also...I realize that going carriers might be an option but I really want to avoid anything that might be gimmicky. I just want to win with solid straight up play for now.)
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Watching the replay now.
Some minor things to begin with, you made your first gate on 11 and gas on 12, usually you want to make the gate on 10, you can make gas on 11 or 12, that doesn't really matter, personally I always go 10 Gate, 11 Gas, 13 Cyb.
Ah, your build wasn't what I expected but it's a decent build (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/222055-d-g-bisu-oovs-new-pvt-opening this one).
You got your third pretty fast but it could have been a bit faster, that was the first real issue I saw, at around 6:45 you were up to about 800 minerals and had the probe in place to make it, you could have been adding gates at that time. You did make them shortly after though so it wasn't a huge deal.
There's no real need for 2 forges at this stage, most people make one, get +1 weapons then add the second forge in time for getting 2-1,
At around 10-11 minutes you were floating at around 1400 minerals, you could have added more gates at that time, you had 6 but could have perhaps gone up to about 10.
You teched zealot speed really late, you could have had it by the time he moved out, also there was a bit of a delay with your arbiters, you made 2 stargates before the tribunal, what you want to do is make your stargate and temp archives at the same time, then when they come up add the tribunal and second stargate.
So...by the time he moved out did outpsi him but not by too much, you had almost 3k minerals but still only 6 gateways, by this stage you want more gateways in your main and you want to be taking a 4th base, preferably in a main. In this case you could have expanded to top left and made 10 more gateways there, enabling you to replenish your army much quicker when units die.
So the main things are more gateways, faster arbs and faster 4th base. He made a lot of turrets at the beginning and made his entire army off only 4 factories so his push was quite slow, use this time to expand up.
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I don't agree with the analysis above. You were way too greedy in my opinion. If a Protoss goes 2 Gate Expand without any goons and then takes his third after only adding observer and no additional Gateways, that should almost always die to any 2 base timing push from Terran (except for maybe a super late 6 Fac). It only appeared somewhat close, because he built a lot of turrets therefore delaying his factories and waited very long to push in general.
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watched the rep
Ok so the most obvious thing is that during the attack you had about 3k unspent minerals - if you had been on top of that, youd have probably 4-6 more gateways and 20 extra zlots either ready or being made. That wouldve allowed you to easily hold the attack. However, neither yours nor your opponents builds were anywhere near optimal, so im going to address that as well.
Youre first mistake was a pylon scout - theres no reason to scout until after after gateway unless you intend to gas steal, it just saves you a few minerals. When scouting the terran, you only really need to know 3 things - #1 is he proxy bbsing, so scout diagonally through the middle of the map first to make sure he isnt, otherwise you will have to adjust by going 2gate zlots quickly #2 where is he and #3 is he opening gas/factory first or cc expand first. Once you find out that hes opening factory first you dont need to stay around inside the terran base, its much better to keep the probe hanging around his natural so you can scout when he expands, if he attacks with an FD or vulture, or periodically check on how many marines hes making. If you stay too long your probe will eventually be trapped in the main and die, and youll have to send another one.
I believe you were trying to do the 21nexus build, which is similar to 1gate range expand but you cut dragoons and probes earlier to get a faster nexus and 2nd gateway. It allows you to get dragoons out slightly faster to defend early pushes such as FD/strong FD more easily while sacrificing flexibility and deception (1gate range opening can be turned into a reaver or dt opening instead of early nexus, this one cant) and possibly slower robotics timing depending on what variant of 1gate range expand we compare it to. The build is described in detail here http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/21_Nexus except I believe the robotics must be on 30supply, not 28, if the rest of the build is followed correctly up to that point. Ive tested it out on my own and you can view it here http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=56517
Anyway, the way you opened was pretty far off the optimal variation. First, you didnt build a first dragoon and instead made a second gateway. The reason getting a dragoon first is optimal is because otherwise an observant terran can block the nexus or possibly even bunker rush. If youre going to skip any units before nexus you might as well go 12nex which is a different build entirely. Then you didnt cut probes appropriately and supply blocked yourself so the result was your nexus was late, and your dragoon production was even more so. You should have 4 dragoons out at 4:50 to defend an FD push which comes around the 5minute mark, but you didnt have yours until 5:15. 25seconds is an eternity in early game BW, you would have died instantly to any attack.
Ok once we are past the early game and he siege expands, you can choose to take a quick 3rd base or get fast arbiters. This is your response to his 2base play, and you can only choose one, the other one is added after either youve defended yourself adequately and youre safely ahead, or the terran is also expanding to a 3rd base. In PvT the midgame must be defensive and adaptive in a standard macro game. If an optimal terran stays on 2base and 5/6fact pushes, and an optimal protoss tries to both take an early 3rd and tech up to arbiters, the terran will win easily, its just too greedy.
What you shouldve done would be (if youre choosing the quick 3rd base option) to take the fast 3rd, add 2+ gateways for a total of 4 and your natural gas, and notice that your terran opponent isnt taking a 3rd base. At that point, instead getting a 3rd gas at the 3rd base, putting down citadel/stargate/archives and looking to take a 4th, you must cut probe production (your economy is already ahead of the terrans at this point on 3base vs 2base) and throw 2+ gateways and a get a shuttle, while producing pure dragoons except for 4zlots to go into the shuttle. Get citadel and 2/3 more gates when you can afford them if the terran stays on 2base and goes up to 5 or 6facts (for a total of 9 gates). Emphasis on continuous dragoon production until zlot speed is finished, then you can make pure zlots, UNLESS he has already attacked by then and killed many dragoons, then reinforce with a mix of zlots and goons. More zlots against more tanks, more goons against more vultures.
What you actually did was build an extremely fast double forge, float some money and then stay on 6gates forever with inconsistent production, and then double stargate. Your citadel timing was a bit fast, but in comparison to everything else which was late because of the terrible opening build, it was extremely fast, and then you even didnt use it for any purpose for a long time. It seemed like maybe you wanted to make zlot leg speed but forgot it, you started making it just as terran was pushing out. The double forge and double stargates are both bad, aside from being too greedy in the situation. In PvT attack upgrades are important, armor upgrades are almost negligible because if you add 1+ armor against a base damage of 20 or 70 its not going to make much difference. The majority of terrans firepower comes from tanks, dealing 75 or whatever it is with massive splash damage, and terran attack upgrades also add like 5+ damage each time i think, so the point is dont emphasize getting armor early, its a waste of money. You can get 1 forge and generally you want to have your 1+ attack upgrade coincide with the terrans 1+ attack upgrade. The double stargate is bad because you dont want double stargate arbiter production, it means you wont also be able to get templars in time for late game timings, and having storm for 150/200 and 200/200 battles is really important. Templars are actually better than arbiters in straight up battles in terms of damage or nullifying potential to the terran army, but the reason why pro gamers emphasize arbiters first is because the threat of permanent cloaking and recalls is so huge that terran must greatly alter his build towards science vessels/mass turrets etc to deal with it and that costs a shitload of money.
I think thats about it, its also worth noting that your opponents attack couldve come at least 2minutes faster, he wasted time making 100 turrets and then building too many tanks before starting vulture production. Your intuition is correct in that the loss was not just from bad spending but a far from optimal strategy and lack of knowledge. gl beating him in future
edit: fuck took me so long to respond theres multiple posts now rofl http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/98903_Stats_vs_TY/vod heres an example of the midgame response i advocated
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cryoc and fyredragon are both high level foreigners, you should probably take their advice when you're still a noob
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10387 Posts
On June 27 2015 09:47 Click_Decision wrote:I really disagree with criticizing the opening. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/2_Gate_Range_ExpandIt's a safe build designed to hold fd pushes. I've seen pros do it and it seems to do well. I can see why having a quick dragoon out earlier is helpful though. they aren't criticizing the opening itself, they're criticizing your execution of it and your followup in terms of strategy.
But about that build, I think you're better off just learning to play normal 1 gate builds. The problem with that 2gate range expand build is that it's very much a "hard read" kind of build. You're really hoping, as a toss, that your opponent doesn't open with FD, because then there's no real safe way to assert early map control and know what the Terran is doing (because of mines). Ideally, the best scenario for toss opening w/ that build is either Barracks-Expand, or Siege-Expand.
The other real problem with the build is how late the observer comes out. By the time the observer has come out for you to scout out Terran, you will already have had to either commit to making a third base, or staying on 2 base and teching/making more gates. What if you decided to go for the third base, and Terran went for a late 2 factory push? You'd be dead, and that'll be GG. Decided to stay on 2 base? If Terran decided to play it standard, you'll be quite behind in the macro game. What if Terran straight up decided to go for a early mine drop? If your timing isn't airtight, you'll be in for a bad time. The build is a gamble, that relies on setting yourself up in a favorable economic position early on, to potentially offset any setbacks you will probably encounter later in the game in order to not die (or to put yourself in an even better position if you can read your opponent correctly). The inflexibility of the build is a prime reason why there's basically only two progames to ever feature the strategy
It's not to say it's an unplayable build, because being behind =/= GG in BW, but I think you'll learn the fundamental skills better by using normal 1 gate builds, and playing reactively based off of observer scouting and such.
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I'm confused now. I do the 2 gate range expand build so that I'm safe from the fd push. So if they do go for that push I can survive and get more comfy in the later stages of the game whereas if I go 1 gate expand I'm more likely to just straight up die to it o.o Maybe when my micro is better eventually I'll try to do that.
The more I think about it the more I think I should go with that 21 nexus build. There was an instance where some guy put 2 scvs at my natural...forcing me to make goons first delaying my nexus by a lot...
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The 2 Gate Range Expo is safe vs FD push, ArvickHero just pointed out that Terran will have longer map control as you have a later obs than with 1 Gate FE so you have to play blind for a while. As long as your micro isn't up to it, just do your opening, it is still better economically than the standard 2 Gate Expand. But play a more safe followup and execute it better.
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I'm sorry if I might be missing points that others may have already made but... you say to play a more safe follow up...what might an example of that be?
And just throwing it out there to not sound ungrateful, I appreciate the feedback really.
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The build you linked to http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/2_Gate_Range_Expand is basically a beta for the alpha that bisu/iloveoov developed and then became more as 21nex popular later afaik. Its pretty much 21nex but not quite as good. The way you opened though your timings were bad regardless of what build you were trying to do and was very unsafe vs FD or other early pushes.
And I believe the safe followup means you should play less greedy which I explained in my post earlier
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Thanks I reread it again and I see what you mean.
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really impressive analysis and advice from Fyre and cryoc. Congratz!
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On June 29 2015 12:29 No_eL wrote: really impressive analysis and advice from Fyre and cryoc. Congratz!
thanks
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I really don't know about that Stats vs TY game considering that Stats did abnormally well with his micro.
I watch a lot of afreeca reps and I would recommend getting a third gate before your third base.
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On June 29 2015 15:20 puppykiller wrote: I really don't know about that Stats vs TY game considering that Stats did abnormally well with his micro.
I watch a lot of afreeca reps and I would recommend getting a third gate before your third base. I agree, if the same builds would be executed on FS and Baby wouldn't have thrown away 3 tanks at the start of the push, it would have been pretty hard for Stats to not die. When Baby starts his push, he has 9 tanks versus 9 dragoons plus maybe 2-4 goons at his natural. Without the ridges and the sloppy start of the push, Protoss shouldn't be able to hold it.
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Im going to respectfully disagree with both of you guys. I think the 3rd gate is not necessary, and that the stats game shows that it isnt.
Stats did have great micro, but he also completely crushed the attack because of it. When he engaged for a second time, he was left with 8 dragoons after the dust settled. By my count, he had 14 dragoons in that battle, so he only lost about half of his army if you include the zlots as well. Losing only half your army in any engagement in which your opponent sacrificed economy to attack faster is pretty much rape, and obviously the game ended a couple minutes later. Im pretty sure that stats wouldve been able to defend the attack even if he hadnt sniped off some tanks at the beginning - he wouldve had a harder time of it, and thats perfectly fine because otherwise why is a pro gamer like baby even attempting such a horrible timing that can never win? Its meant to be hard to defend, and overcompensating on defense to make it easier would just allow baby to sit back more and get ahead in another way. When baby first pushed out, stats had the 9 dragoons at babys natural and a couple at his own natural, but after the first engagement we get a shot of his natural again and we see that he already has a shuttle with zlots, so he would really not have a problem dealing with a 90% tank army, given that by the time baby arrives at his base he will have another 1-2 rounds of dragoons reinforced, depending on how much he delays with his dragoons, and defend quite satisfactorily. Maybe hed be left with 2-3 dragoons instead of 8.
It also makes sense to skip the 3rd gate in theory because if a terran opens with siege expand instead of FD, hes cutting marines to afford a faster cc. Pro gamers build a 3rd gateway to help protect themselves from FD/strong FD/2factory aggression. If we allow that protoss is even in economy against FD+ builds while remaining relatively safe to the attack when he builds a 3rd gateway, then if he builds the 3rd gateway also vs siege expand, he must then be behind in economy because hes facing a stronger economic build, while not changing his own. He obviously has no early timing to defend vs siege expand, so the 3rd gateway is a detriment and the money should be spent elsewhere. In the stats game, stats clearly scouted with his probe at babys ramp and saw there were no marines, so he adapted his build to counter the siege expand. I think his play was excellent.
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I am skeptical to that follow-up, on maps with ridges between the naturals it might work, but with no terrain advantage, it should be easy to push to the middle of the map and then slow push to Protoss natural. Do you remember a game on the top of your head with the same theme (2 Gate obs 3rd Nexus vs SE Timing push) but on a map with no ridges? If that is the safe normal follow-up for Protoss vs a SE, I guess it is one more reason to not SE. With an FD one can atleast scout the 3rd timing.
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sorry thats the only one i could think of atm, i havent studied vods in a long time. im sure there are others though
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On June 27 2015 20:42 Click_Decision wrote: I'm confused now. I do the 2 gate range expand build so that I'm safe from the fd push. So if they do go for that push I can survive and get more comfy in the later stages of the game whereas if I go 1 gate expand I'm more likely to just straight up die to it o.o Maybe when my micro is better eventually I'll try to do that.
The more I think about it the more I think I should go with that 21 nexus build. There was an instance where some guy put 2 scvs at my natural...forcing me to make goons first delaying my nexus by a lot... 1 gate should survive FD too, and yeah its more dicey cause your new and your micro isnt fantastic but..generally you want to practice for the long term rather than carry around crutches, you know? Also, FD isnt a given, and 1 gate openers are a lot better across the spectrum than 2 gate. Were in a greedy era and 2 gates just kinda out of date.
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