In game 1 larva opened with 12 hatch and decided to let his natural expansion finish. He only build one creep colony at the natural, which was unable to finish, and decided instead to go for Bisu's main with his zerglings.
Bisu managed to divert the zergling threat and followed it up with zealots blocking Larva's main ramp. Larva was unable to break the zealots and probes blocking his ramp and thus decided for another approach. Meanwhile, Bisu fortified his position by building cannons.
Larva went for hydralisks and researched ventral sacks hoping to circumvent the contain because the cannon numbers were too high to break head-on. This however proved unsuccessful due to Bisu's alertness with zealots, dragoons and his pesky corsairs.
The game is basically over at this point.
Game 2 was just a practice game: Zero vs Bisu. (Game starts at 51 minutes)
In game 2 Zero opened with 12 hatch but canceled it when he scouted the proxy 2 gate.
The zealots were in his base before he had any zerglings out and already managed to kill two drones. Since he has only a single hatch, there is no way for him to match the production of Bisu. Bisu quickly blocks the main ramp and starts building cannons.
Zero tried the same approach as larva - researching ventral sacks and dropping hydralisks - but this again was unsuccessful due to Bisu's corsairs and alertness with zealots and dragoons ready to attack Zero's forces the second they would be dropped.
The game is over.
What is the appropriate response for a Zerg?
Since these are two top-tier players (Zero and Larva) and it worked incredibly effective versus both players, it seems reasonable to assume that there is no easy way to approach this situation. Many of you will most likely say that a zerg should never find itself in this situation; he should be able to stop the proxy gate and prevent the cannon contain completely. "Prevention is better than cure" is commonly said in medicine, but could thus be appropriate here as well.
Nevertheless, how can we counter the situation where your ramp gets blocked with a few zealots, which can take on endless numbers of zerglings?
Use drone drilling
Quickly go for hydralisks
Sunken bust
1. Drone drilling
Targeting drones to the natural's minerals allows them to pass through the zealots and disrupt the tight formation. Then you could use zerglings and drones to overpower the zealots before cannons are produced.
There is a major problem associated with this approach. Since you are limited to one hatch at this time, it will be very difficult if not impossible to overpower the zealots with your limited zergling production.
2. Immediate hydralisks
Hydralisks will be able to force the zealots to retreat, but what is preventing the protoss from just throwing down a few more cannons? Do you wait for speed and range or do you go immediately? Slow hydralisks will be really difficult to micro versus zealots and cannons and one slight mistake would mean game over.
3. Sunken bust
I did a short play-through myself of the situation that larva was in. I used the exact same cannon positioning of Bisu and tried using sunkens to solve the problem. I was looking for a sunken positioning that would be able to target zealots at the ramp and assist in destroying a cannon.
I found that if the cannon is already up, there's no way to make sunkens that can help in destroying the cannons. When two sunkens are produced at the same time, the creep colony that was targeted from the beginning will die when the second creep colony is around 30% complete for morphing into a sunken. The cannon will be able to bring down the sunken to around 200 health before the latter can start attacking. Due to the high ground advantage of the cannon, the sunken that completed is unable to kill it.
This means that it is only possible to make sunkens slightly out of range of cannon fire but in range of the zealot ramp (preferably as close to the cannons as possible). By doing this, the sunkens will be able to help you when you want to break out by using either purely zerglings or a zergling/hydralisk mix.
For this to work, I think you will need to place your second hatchery closer to the ramp to produce creep. This might take too long however, necessitating creep colonies instead. A sunken colony does amount to 175 minerals in total (75 creep colony, 50 for drone and 50 for sunken colony), which is only 125 short of a hatchery that you should get anyway.
Picture 1: One creep colony is necessary to extend creep far enough to allow sunkens to be build in range of main ramp.
Picture 2: Alternatively, a hatchery can be build close to the ramp.
Some final notes
A few other options crossed my mind.
Would it be possible to save your natural expansion versus a double proxy 9 gates? This would prevent the nasty cannon contain completely.
Would one base mutalisk play be able to accomplish anything?
Thank you all for your help. I will add some pictures of the cannon contain that I did. I tried opening the Kespa maps in the editor but it gave me an error so I had to play as protoss and mind control a drone haha.
I saw Olympus do this against hero on Jade and hero lost too
edit: Scratch that, the highlight/game I'm thinking of that was shown was actually larva vs. bisu. It was preceding the game between olympus and hero and they were showing hero and olympus' faces in between cuts of the highlight which made me think it was hero vs. olympus.
I think 2 hatch muta or 2 hatch lurker is the best option. You would see a lot of protoss do 2 gate proxy into cannon contain on a particular map back in the day. Then you'd do 2 hatch lurker, force protoss to defend. They'd make the mistake of going both robo and cannons instead of one or the other and die to lurker+ling, super good unit combo vs. pure cannon and so is mutaling. If they do have enough defense you'd pull back, drone up, and sunken up as appropriate. I remember some really sexy games of Jaedong playing against Stork. Stork went for the gateway contain with cannon rush, same strategy he used vs. GGplay where it worked. I'm gonna go through the hassle of finding the games I'm thinking of. Ooh, there was also another game of Savior playing against Reach and Reach did a 2 gate into cannon contain.
Mutas are good for making toss worry because his own base can be zerg's playground. Toss can't tech, cannon contain, and expand all at once. He has to choose one of the branches or he'll die. I think hydra drops give toss so much time.
The only time I ever went ventral sacs into hydras was when my opponent who was an unorthodox player did a straight up cannon rush and positioned his cannons like a bunker rush. He pulled 6 probes. I cancelled second hatch, and went into hydra drops. He tried going cannons at my natural to contain me, cannons at his own natural to defend against the hydra drops, and he tried going for expansion and corsair all in a short frame of time. He kept on adding on more cannons to his cannon contain and his own natural but it was tooo much. I overwhelmed him and only because he put such a commitment to the early rush pulling so many workers.
dong vs. stork. My mind is blown away, such cute play by the JD. He uses one creep colony to spread creep, never morphs it. Following sunks are used to kill off following cannons. Meanwhile JD is teching to 2 hatch muta and forces Stork to defend. He goes corsairs off of one base and wouldn't have corsairs in time if he tried to fast expand.
Compare that with GGPlay's more disastrous response: Looks like JD and GGPlay both wanted to go 12 hatch. GGPlay pulled drones, JD didn't so he got a faster spawning pool. JD's second creep colony (in range of cannon) finished just as soon as Stork's cannon finished. GGPlay's creep colony hadn't even started when stork's cannon was finished. GGplay threw away 6 lings. JD follows up with Mutalisks and then Hydras to deal with the mass corsair. GGplay goes for mass ling runby strategy .
Reach goes for something similar to stork's cannon gateway contain. Savior goes overpool so there's a brief period of putting on pressure to break the contain but reach's simcity is good. He tries to leapfrog the cannons and does a runby with zealots because sunks aren't in range. Savior goes 2 hatch muta and reach in response goes for 2 stargate corsair off of one base. Savior goes 3 hatch hydra, breaks cannon contain with brute force. Game progresses from there with reach going for corsair reaver.
2 gate proxy into cannon contain savior vs. Rainbow + Show Spoiler +
Rainbow goes 2 gate proxy on the map 815 with the super sleek ramp. It can only fit small units like zealots but not vultures so that makes it even more ideal for zealot and or zealot/cannon contains. Savior goes for something like a 11-12 pool it feels like or maybe he had enough drones for 12 hatch but places down pool when he realizes it's 2 gate proxy. He sneaks some lings out with some good drone mineral walking and he goes for lair mutalisk tech. 3rd hatch is placed somewhere secret. Rainbow upon finding ninja expo sends zealots but savior's mutas get there in the nick of time and kill zealots before hatch can die. He deals with the zealot contain by focus firing zealots with mutalisks containing the lings and then goes to town on the cannons. I figure sending lings in first to absorb cannon shots is good. I bet you can be fancier by pulling back weakened mutas in case toss tries to focus fire. Rainbow goes 1 stargate, one robo off of one base and tries island expands and reaver drops. At this point it's an exercise in futility and savior has already back teched into hydras to deal with the corsairs. Rainbow tries to follow up with reaver+corsair harass but savior deals with it all decently well and takes the whole entire map while rainbow is on the backfoot taking blows from savior from relentless drops+devourerrrrrs.
Edit: Those are nice pictures
Super last edit: Looks like larva flubbed who would've known.
I watched that zero vs. bisu game. I feel like zero should've placed a creep colony the instant he saw that 2 gate proxy so there'd be less time for bisu's zealots to tear up that drone line to smithereens. I usually let my 2nd hatch go 99 percent before cancelling it, maybe that's a mistake but that's what I do anyway. LOLOLOL he decided to hydra drop right where the cannons were?
If you're going overpool, you can rush protoss' probe line and then toss can split up zealots to protect mineral line or kill off zerg's natural. Toss can't commit to both that well and the reinforcing lings will be enough if toss does decide to send some zealots back to home base. If it's a 12 hatch it's pretty much impossible unless protoss decided to proxy 2 gates at his natural base instead of the middle of the map.Then you can make 3 creep colonies at the natural or alternatively drone drill+ling attack or a little of both. I have some example games of that too where savior deals with proxy 2 gates. There was a broadcast where he played against protoss and probably played 5 games in a row where Protosses went 2 gate or 2 gate proxy. It was uncanny and he demolished them all like the weaklings they were and forever will be.
Savior attempt to counter 2 gate proxy vs. ssinz[mvp]: + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjeavDRstCE Lol this went terribly. This cheesy toss went 2 gate proxy. It was cross positions but savior only made 2 lings and 2 drones after his spawning pool finished from the overpool build which is the most standard thing to do vs. forge fast expand. Savior decided to let his hatchery finish anyway. I've seen hero caught in the same position but he decided to cancel the 2nd hatchery and just went hydras. After two games of cheesy tossiness savior starts to scout with the 2nd drone that spawns after the overlord.
I swear there was another much more modern game where savior vsed a protoss who went 2 gate proxy (at natural) into cannon contain. I'll find it soon. All I remember was that savior had the same opening as the ssinz[mvp] player with only 2 lings. He cancels his natural hatchery that time and does some other stuff. I think the vod is lost forever. I give up. Maybe it wasn't a cannon contain, just zealot contain. When savior sees the timing of the expo nexus, he sees an opportunity to do a drone drill with lings and breaks out. It's strange because his 2nd hatchery which was a ninja expansion was discovered and killed off, a huge setback. Savior still played it out though and he got to the midgame where he lost when toss went for a 2 base all in and his lurker+sunken defense couldn't hold.
On July 17 2015 18:35 Ty2 wrote: I swear there was another much more modern game where savior vsed a protoss who went 2 gate proxy (at natural) into cannon contain. I'll find it soon. All I remember was that savior had the same opening as the ssinz[mvp] player with only 2 lings. He cancels his natural hatchery that time and does some other stuff. I think the vod is lost forever. I give up. Maybe it wasn't a cannon contain, just zealot contain. When savior sees the timing of the expo nexus, he sees an opportunity to do a drone drill with lings and breaks out. It's strange because his 2nd hatchery which was a ninja expansion was discovered and killed off, a huge setback. Savior still played it out though and he got to the midgame where he lost when toss went for a 2 base all in and his lurker+sunken defense couldn't hold.
I do think that Neo Jade is particularly problematic since the main base is on low ground. In the Stork games on the other hand, the cannons were on the low ground.
Could you also perhaps elaborate on how lurker ling on one base can beat a cannon contain? I have only played maybe a handful of games on one base but resources are (obviously) very scarce. Can you afford enough lurkers to beat 4-5 cannons + the supporting zealots? Do you use lings as fodder and to block the zealots while lurkers run in and focus fire cannons? (I'll just have to practice this against someone to see how this turns out).
It just bothers me a bit that even high level zerg players flop against this strategy. Surely they should know a better response than ventral sacs and hydralisks ^^ What are your thoughts on the sunken bust? Would you place your hatchery close to the ramp or just near your main hatchery?
On July 17 2015 18:35 Ty2 wrote: I swear there was another much more modern game where savior vsed a protoss who went 2 gate proxy (at natural) into cannon contain. I'll find it soon. All I remember was that savior had the same opening as the ssinz[mvp] player with only 2 lings. He cancels his natural hatchery that time and does some other stuff. I think the vod is lost forever. I give up. Maybe it wasn't a cannon contain, just zealot contain. When savior sees the timing of the expo nexus, he sees an opportunity to do a drone drill with lings and breaks out. It's strange because his 2nd hatchery which was a ninja expansion was discovered and killed off, a huge setback. Savior still played it out though and he got to the midgame where he lost when toss went for a 2 base all in and his lurker+sunken defense couldn't hold.
On July 18 2015 01:16 B-royal wrote: Ty2, thanks very much for your post.
I do think that Neo Jade is particularly problematic since the main base is on low ground. In the Stork games on the other hand, the cannons were on the low ground.
Could you also perhaps elaborate on how lurker ling on one base can beat a cannon contain? I have only played maybe a handful of games on one base but resources are (obviously) very scarce. Can you afford enough lurkers to beat 4-5 cannons + the supporting zealots? Do you use lings as fodder and to block the zealots while lurkers run in and focus fire cannons? (I'll just have to practice this against someone to see how this turns out).
It just bothers me a bit that even high level zerg players flop against this strategy. Surely they should know a better response than ventral sacs and hydralisks ^^ What are your thoughts on the sunken bust? Would you place your hatchery close to the ramp or just near your main hatchery?
If you have a ninja expansion, you can make lurkers that way and force protoss to commit to defence back at home alleviating some of the pressure from the cannon contain. Then while your Lurkers+lings created from the ninja expansion are out you can strike the cannon contain from two angles.
To micro you send in the lurkers first with the lings trailing behind. Lurkers will take the first volley of cannon shots and then burrow. Lings will advance taking the cannon shots while Lurkers shoot from behind. If toss has enough cannons to contain you then toss is probably still on 1 base or at least 2 base with zero tech. You have to see how committed toss is by checking expansions and what not.
I think the sunken bust idea is strange, I've never done it. It was convenient for Jaedong because the creep from the 1st hatchery reached the cannons. I could try it. You'd have to deal with zealots doing run bys. You might have to deal with a reach vs. savior scenario where the security of the cannons let Reach do a runby but you could probably place a creep colony on the edge of the creep close enough to cover the whole perimeter of the morphing hatchery. I think by that time though you'd be making a creep colony way after a cannon has finished which didn't work out for GGplay. If you tried spreading creep off of the 1st hatchery depending on the map it might be good like on Sin Chupung Ryeong but on other maps I'm not sure it'd be cost efficient and if the distance were large then you wouldn't make a creep colony in time before a cannon in range finishes.