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On August 12 2015 05:04 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2015 06:30 Damien wrote: 2) Don´t stop training peons;
The economy is the most important factor in game like Starcraft. Create peons all the time provides you a strong economy, then you can train a big army. Great advice, but of course BW is a sophisticated/deep game, and it's never quite that simple. Under normal circumstances 'always be training workers' is great, but there are times when you want to cut workers in order to do a timing attack and/or to get tech in time. Maybe it's more like 'always be making workers, unless there's a very clear reason/benefit to not doing so." . Honestly I think this is a little pedantic. Once you've reached the point where your worker saturation is reasonably good and you dont need to constantly over compensate, you've also probably reached the point in strategical and mechanical competence that you wont need to ask questions like this. It's totally fair to say to a newbie to always produce workers. When I started out I attempted to do that and I still ended up like 20 workers behind my opponent every game.
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On August 12 2015 15:56 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2015 05:04 [[Starlight]] wrote:On August 02 2015 06:30 Damien wrote: 2) Don´t stop training peons;
The economy is the most important factor in game like Starcraft. Create peons all the time provides you a strong economy, then you can train a big army. Great advice, but of course BW is a sophisticated/deep game, and it's never quite that simple. Under normal circumstances 'always be training workers' is great, but there are times when you want to cut workers in order to do a timing attack and/or to get tech in time. Maybe it's more like 'always be making workers, unless there's a very clear reason/benefit to not doing so." . Honestly I think this is a little pedantic. Once you've reached the point where your worker saturation is reasonably good and you dont need to constantly over compensate, you've also probably reached the point in strategical and mechanical competence that you wont need to ask questions like this. It's totally fair to say to a newbie to always produce workers. When I started out I attempted to do that and I still ended up like 20 workers behind my opponent every game. How is it pedantic when you can die easily to opponents who understand the concept of cutting workers and doing a good rush or timing attack while you yourself do not?
I get what you're saying, try to keep it simple as possible for newbies, but I'm not sure that the concept of cutting workers for an immediate goal is all that complicated.
And it's probably better to teach them that than to have new players die to stuff like that and go, "I was always training workers, how did I die, I don't understand!!!"
Plus, you're giving them an additional tool to win with as well.
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Hey Damien, just thought I'd give my opinions cause I think your questions are interesting. I am a a pretty good Protoss player.
On August 02 2015 06:30 Damien wrote: Hey guys, I am thinking about how this game have same mechanics and meta for all races like taking 3 bases and saturate it, attacking to deny enemy´s third, drop or use mutalisks to force opponent move his army etc. This may be true in SC2 (is it?), but I wouldn't say that it is for bw. The three races have distinct meta games in every match up. You cannot simplify this in my opinion to "take 3 bases and saturate" or "attack to deny 3rd" as generally what you should do in a game to win. You can get to like C with it but then you will be stuck, it is very important to learn not to play on autopilot for decisions like these if you want to get good so might as well start before you reach C, if ya want! You will see me answer the next questions in the same way but trying to be more specific with examples.
I will start with this: 1) Never be suply blocked;
This one is obvious but pretty important. Be suply blocked slow your game and bring you to death, couse "the biggest army almost ever wins". This is not true and depends on both the match up and the situation. What are you supply blocked WITH (army composition and worker count)? what is your rate of income and your opponent's (who is benefitting from a longer wait in terms of future money) ? who has the stronger defense or offense ? Is there an objective critically important in this game that could decide the end (is there only 1 expo left, or are you behind one base, or is you and/or your opponent low in gas..) ? For example, in PvT Terran generally benefits from being supply blocked but how long he would like to keep that going depends on some things. If the game hasn't ran for long and P is not yet on 5 arbiters full of energy then T may want to end the supply block situation faster so that P will not be able to fill his arbs with energy or add 1 or 2 to the count. But generally T has a very strong defense and may just want to keep securing bases instead of trying to attack and he would keep the advantage that way. It is not the case only if P is expanding a lot which is the correct answer to a turtling Terran. So then you see why "take 3 bases and saturate" is also not a proper rule to follow for P in that case, you may want to go 4-5 bases when T is on 3 and not saturate them. This is also a way to have T's army move around more cause there are more areas on the map to attack, gaining P time to re-produce units as engagements happen and try to save workers moving them between bases.
2) Don´t stop training peons;
The economy is the most important factor in game like Starcraft. Create peons all the time provides you a strong economy, then you can train a big army. Like Starlight has said before be careful because even at low levels you will get punished for this by some players. You must evaluate priority against rushes or if you want to make some timing attack it may be quite important to stop producing peons for a certain time. Also if you keep producing peons all game you will find that you lose some games because near supply cap you have too many workers and your opponent owns you with a superior army. Keep watching replays when you lose and you will likely find indications of this in some of your games if you do produce workers non stop. No. And of course Z has a complex structure for macro so you can't simplify this to "dont stop training peons" at all.
3) Expand in time;
If you expand in time you always will have minerals to support you army production. You can be beated with a strong micro if your enemy can recreate his army and you not. Sure but the right time to expand depends on a lot of things!
4) Know what to scout and how to counter;
Know the match and what oponent can do. If you could foresee what your oponent will do, so you can counter it properly. Yes that is extremely core to the game, and is the reason of my answers up here. It all depends on what is going on, you must adapt to the situation always and change some details in your plan and make new plans as you gather info. If not this wouldn't really be a strategy game, and this definitely IS a strategy game (with a lot of control skills in it as well).
5) Know the timings that allow you to attack.
Try to attack when you are sure of it. A bad and no planned attack will bring you to defeat. Yes. I recommend reading some Sun Tzu about this. It's a short book full of great advice about engagement (plus other things). Here http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/features/2067-sun-tzu-s-art-of-starcraft is an article by Hautamaki about this that inspired me to also read the book itself. Maybe just the article is enough, but book is worth it and short enough, like 100 pages, some stuff you can skip too. You can and really should use this advice and techniques if you haven't already learned them from experience or something.
Cheers and Starcraft forever
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On August 12 2015 16:23 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2015 15:56 Dazed_Spy wrote:On August 12 2015 05:04 [[Starlight]] wrote:On August 02 2015 06:30 Damien wrote: 2) Don´t stop training peons;
The economy is the most important factor in game like Starcraft. Create peons all the time provides you a strong economy, then you can train a big army. Great advice, but of course BW is a sophisticated/deep game, and it's never quite that simple. Under normal circumstances 'always be training workers' is great, but there are times when you want to cut workers in order to do a timing attack and/or to get tech in time. Maybe it's more like 'always be making workers, unless there's a very clear reason/benefit to not doing so." . Honestly I think this is a little pedantic. Once you've reached the point where your worker saturation is reasonably good and you dont need to constantly over compensate, you've also probably reached the point in strategical and mechanical competence that you wont need to ask questions like this. It's totally fair to say to a newbie to always produce workers. When I started out I attempted to do that and I still ended up like 20 workers behind my opponent every game. How is it pedantic when you can die easily to opponents who understand the concept of cutting workers and doing a good rush or timing attack while you yourself do not? I get what you're saying, try to keep it simple as possible for newbies, but I'm not sure that the concept of cutting workers for an immediate goal is all that complicated. And it's probably better to teach them that than to have new players die to stuff like that and go, "I was always training workers, how did I die, I don't understand!!!" Plus, you're giving them an additional tool to win with as well. No one who needs the advice to constantly produce workers is playing against someone who understands, or can take advantage of, worker cutting. And my point was that newbies already cut even when they're actively attempting to keep continuous production. Thats why they're newbies: they fuck everything up badly. They suck.
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telling newbies to always build workers has nothing to do with any strategic/tactical reason whatsoever
its simply to get newbies into the routine/habit of constantly building workers into their muscle memory, otherwise they would just simply miss tons of worker cycles anytime they play, irregardless of strategy. its important to get your mechanics down to pat before you start caring about winning or losing or strategic play. even applies if you are a cheese player since you hav e to make sure you don't stop making workers to a certain point.
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On August 13 2015 01:02 ProMeTheus112 wrote: Like Starlight has said before be careful because even at low levels you will get punished for [always training workers] by some players. You must evaluate priority against rushes or if you want to make some timing attack it may be quite important to stop producing peons for a certain time.
Also if you keep producing peons all game you will find that you lose some games because near supply cap you have too many workers and your opponent owns you with a superior army. Keep watching replays when you lose and you will likely find indications of this in some of your games if you do produce workers non stop. No. And of course Z has a complex structure for macro so you can't simplify this to "dont stop training peons" at all. Yup. 'Always training workers' is like mass-expanding, fast-teching, or almost anything else in BW... you can do it, but you can also be punished for it by a smart and/or aggressive opponent (most any rush counts on the other player prioritizing eco over all or most else).
So, you might as well know when to prioritize eco, when not to, and why. The basic concepts of this aren't that complicated.
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I' ve played against a lot of nubs. biggest mistakes nubs make are:
- Positioning: not taking advantage of ramps, cliffs, open/closed spaces. Buildings, units, rally points are incorrect and unacceptably bad
- Workers saturation vs taking new bases. No point in making a nexus when you have 15 peons, for example. They tend to over make, undermake, bases, and undermake peons.
- Lack of scouting. After first peon is dead, lack of keeping track of, expansion pattern of enemy, tech of enemy, army postitioning of enemy.
- simcity: buildings and base are improperly planned. No worker is kept on the margins to keep making supply depots, turrets before ebay is complete.
- Attacks on first contact. No decision as wheter to engage or not. Usually engages straightfoward when first contact is made. No recalls, moving of army, no mid- or late game harass.
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Norway28256 Posts
I've never seen a newbie who lost a game because he was building too many scvs/probes. For newbies, focusing on always building more probes/scvs is good advice, because not having enough is a really frequent cause of losing. So it is good advice.
There is an exception for zerg though- and balancing drone/army production is one of the strategically trickier things to master. Zerg is also the most fun to play though!
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