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So Heartbreak Ridge is being used once again for Spotimes Starleague...
Apparently, they didn't get the SSL11 memo about the map. The only TvP game where Terran won on this map is Sharp vs Lazy in Challenger Round (yeah). The only TvZ game where Terran won on this map is Killer vs Mind (a TvZ master... mind). It was still very close even for the most consistent TvZ player in the SOSPA era (someone who doesn't have the PianO-choke).
Is this like JangBi Pathfinder OSL all over again? OGN couldn't give us a 2-player map like Match Point where you can't proxy gate?
But hey, anything to avoid an all Terran semifinals like in SSL10. That's much worse than having an all Protoss or Zerg semifinals, right?
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But in all seriousness now, what strategies/builds should Terran opt for on Heartbreak Ridge in the 2015 meta? Any VODs of top Korean Terrans who play this map right?
And most importantly: should TLC replace all their maps with HBR so that Scan doesn't crush everyone?
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On August 14 2015 09:50 HyralGambit wrote: So Heartbreak Ridge is being used once again for Spotimes Starleague...
Apparently, they didn't get the SSL11 memo about the map. The only TvP game where Terran won on this map is Sharp vs Lazy in Challenger Round (yeah). The only TvZ game where Terran won on this map is Killer vs Mind (a TvZ master... mind). It was still very close even for the most consistent TvZ player in the SOSPA era (someone who doesn't have the PianO-choke).
Is this like JangBi Pathfinder OSL all over again? OGN couldn't give us a 2-player map like Match Point where you can't proxy gate?
But hey, anything to avoid an all Terran semifinals like in SSL10. That's much worse than having an all Protoss or Zerg semifinals, right?
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But in all seriousness now, what strategies/builds should Terran opt for on Heartbreak Ridge in the 2015 meta? Any VODs of top Korean Terrans who play this map right?
And most importantly: should TLC replace all their maps with HBR so that Scan doesn't crush everyone? Do you honestly think adding HBR will help people beat Scan?
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On August 14 2015 10:03 GGzerG wrote:
Do you honestly think having good foreign protoss players will help people beat Scan?
and lol scan's offrace is proficient enough to take on any foreigner. not to mention non-pros don't have much experience with maps outside FS (and its clones maybe). so you can't really use the race/map card here.
and anyway HBR has definitely been proven imbalanced through this tourney, at least OGN/korean organizers won't be using that map again in the foreseeable future.
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Why is this in the strategy section and not the QQ section? HBR during proleague was perfectly fine and IT'S DEFINITELY A T>Z map.
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On August 14 2015 10:26 dRaW wrote: Why is this in the strategy section and not the QQ section? HBR during proleague was perfectly fine and IT'S DEFINITELY A T>Z map.
HBR KESPA stats: PvT: 4-5
lower amount of games than SSL11, not to mention the Terran wins are from arguably stronger players triumphing over weaker players (Flash, Fantasy,Sea, Midas are 4 winners with the odd darkelf over Horang2)
oh btw SOSPA stats for HBR TvP record: 25-40 (38.5%) !!!
compare that with say Circuit Breaker TvP record: 180-169 (51.6%)
won't argue about TvZ, i think terrans do just fine in that matchup on that map.
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On August 14 2015 10:33 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2015 10:26 dRaW wrote: Why is this in the strategy section and not the QQ section? HBR during proleague was perfectly fine and IT'S DEFINITELY A T>Z map. HBR KESPA stats: PvT: 4-5 lower amount of games than SSL11, not to mention the Terran wins are from arguably stronger players triumphing over weaker players (Flash, Fantasy,Sea, Midas are 4 winners with the odd darkelf over Horang2) oh btw SOSPA stats for HBR TvP record: 25-40 (38.5%) !!! compare that with say Circuit Breaker TvP record: 180-169 (51.6%) won't argue about TvZ, i think terrans do just fine in that matchup on that map. Interesting.
I guess to be fair, late mech popularity with all the ridges and chokes does favor the go-to TvZ style.
Mutas seems very good on this map tho. Wonder how good Guardians all-in Modesty style is...
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well HBR will be used in Spotimes Starleague so we can see whether Terran can find solutions or continue to struggle versus Protoss on that map (i think the latter would be the outcome)
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On August 14 2015 10:33 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2015 10:26 dRaW wrote: Why is this in the strategy section and not the QQ section? HBR during proleague was perfectly fine and IT'S DEFINITELY A T>Z map. HBR KESPA stats: PvT: 4-5 lower amount of games than SSL11, not to mention the Terran wins are from arguably stronger players triumphing over weaker players (Flash, Fantasy,Sea, Midas are 4 winners with the odd darkelf over Horang2) oh btw SOSPA stats for HBR TvP record: 25-40 (38.5%) !!! compare that with say Circuit Breaker TvP record: 180-169 (51.6%) won't argue about TvZ, i think terrans do just fine in that matchup on that map. Though I will not argue with HbR being an absolutely terrible map for Terran, it feels fine to me to have it in the map pool anyway. Make player actually try or get creative in order to win; aren't we all hoping for a larger audience pool in the end regardless? This is something that unique strategies and amazing games comes from.
I genuinely hate playing the map (as a T) but I will never dodge it; it's just another level of disgusting. Should it be put away with? Probably. If it isn't retired, should we cry about it? Maybe. It seems like these are the latter stages of BW's life, and we should have learned by now what is and isn't acceptable for top competitive play.
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On August 14 2015 10:18 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2015 10:03 GGzerG wrote:
Do you honestly think having good foreign protoss players will help people beat Scan? and lol scan's offrace is proficient enough to take on any foreigner. not to mention non-pros don't have much experience with maps outside FS (and its clones maybe). so you can't really use the race/map card here. and anyway HBR has definitely been proven imbalanced through this tourney, at least OGN/korean organizers won't be using that map again in the foreseeable future.
Ty2 beat Scan in ZvZ.
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On August 14 2015 12:58 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2015 10:18 Probemicro wrote:On August 14 2015 10:03 GGzerG wrote:
Do you honestly think having good foreign protoss players will help people beat Scan? and lol scan's offrace is proficient enough to take on any foreigner. not to mention non-pros don't have much experience with maps outside FS (and its clones maybe). so you can't really use the race/map card here. and anyway HBR has definitely been proven imbalanced through this tourney, at least OGN/korean organizers won't be using that map again in the foreseeable future. Ty2 beat Scan in ZvZ.
i did said "take on", not " rape" :-) and give props to Scan for wanting to tryout a matchup that many main zergs shun
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United States9607 Posts
Guys we should bring back Fighting Spirit! *cough cough*
No seriously, get this crap out of here. This is why I despise anything non-4 player map haha. It's very difficult to balance 2-3 player maps as well as you can balance a 4 player map.
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I remember Flash vs Movie in finals on that map. Movie played smart and gained a good advantage at the beginning, but lost eventually. And yet he won another game of that series on other map. If terrans would play like Flash did, nobody would even think about its balance.
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On August 14 2015 14:10 FlaShFTW wrote:Guys we should bring back Fighting Spirit! *cough cough* No seriously, get this crap out of here. This is why I despise anything non-4 player map haha. It's very difficult to balance 2-3 player maps as well as you can balance a 4 player map. Match Point seems pretty okay. Unbuildable center for Terran and easy bases along the sides (less Recall and Carriers annoyances).
Tau Cross seems fun. I like it for the tank drops shenanigans. But are these really hard to balance?
I just want to see a map with no spawn RNG that isn't proxy heaven with dynamic macro play from both sides. A fantasy I know.
Edit: According to LP notes: "Match Point is the weirdest map for Protoss – they dominate Zerg and get stomped by Terran."
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On August 14 2015 17:36 HyralGambit wrote:
Edit: According to LP notes: "Match Point is the weirdest map for Protoss – they dominate Zerg and get stomped by Terran."
look at the talk page. But thanks for pointing out how shitty that page is written. omfg
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Are you guys watching Mind vs free right now on HBR...
Wow, I don't know what to say anymore...
EDIT: So Mind showed that Vulture harass is pretty viable (either that or free sucks at defending vs them).
But Mind needs to hit his EMPs, too many hallucinated recalls.
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United States9607 Posts
On August 14 2015 17:23 arbiter_md wrote: I remember Flash vs Movie in finals on that map. Movie played smart and gained a good advantage at the beginning, but lost eventually. And yet he won another game of that series on other map. If terrans would play like Flash did, nobody would even think about its balance. Well, balance is all very relative. If you look at a map stats and see that, during a time of great Terran power, that Terrans only had like a 50-55% win rate, then the map isn't balance because Terrans should be having a much higher win rate with their superior skill.
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I hope you all realize first of all that posting statistics for korean pros on maps will have no correlation to how us foreigners play on HBR or any of these other maps, there is no relation.
On August 14 2015 10:18 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2015 10:03 GGzerG wrote:
Do you honestly think having good foreign protoss players will help people beat Scan? and lol scan's offrace is proficient enough to take on any foreigner. not to mention non-pros don't have much experience with maps outside FS (and its clones maybe). so you can't really use the race/map card here. and anyway HBR has definitely been proven imbalanced through this tourney, at least OGN/korean organizers won't be using that map again in the foreseeable future. You need help, who changes someones quote and then attempts to argue / disprove a post they didn't make? Are you psychologically ok?
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Canada10898 Posts
Is it really so bad for Terran? I would think the narrow corridors and multiple ramps would allow mech to choke out paths? Or are Arbiter or Shuttles that abusive on this map? Or is it proxies? Dunno, I've had decent games on this map, but I'm also protoss.
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