Zerg vs Protoss engagements
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
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Ty2
United States1428 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
source: my experience as the protoss (what I lose to ) and what I see from the pros | ||
Miwyfe
England101 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + This video contains 2 games. The first is only 10 minutes, the second is longer and shows how to handle the lategame. This is a masterclass in ZvP. | ||
ninazerg
United States7290 Posts
On August 26 2015 14:08 DilemaH wrote: So I'm new to brood war, and a lot of my strife has been comming from the zerg vs protoss matchup, specifically during fights. I lose just about every fight so terribly, and I'm wondering if there are any pointers I should keep in mind or micro tricks I should know. What should my army comp look like? How should I position my units? Etc. I'm also having trouble breaking bases due to high zealot counts. Just throw me some noob tips and pointers. Literally anything is appreciated Do you have some replays that I could see? You can upload replays to repdepot, then link that here. That will paint a better picture of what is happening during your games. | ||
13Julia
Canada231 Posts
You can use all the tricks, you can outmicro your opponent, flank like crazy, and it still goes to how many templars there are and how good he can reinforce the 1a2a deathball. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
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greenelve
Germany1392 Posts
Stop is mostly used for contains, scouts or walls, when you dont want your units be pulled away from a position. Hold position is a little trick with lurker. Normally they dont have this command, but by selecting with another unit - overlord for example - you can make them "hold position". If you do that while the lurker is buried, it wont attack when enemies come in sight. So you can set little traps for marines by tell your lurkers to attack when the marines are right above them. And yes, you are supposed to a-move for attack. Normally you click a-move behind the opponents army and also attack from different angles for surround. If you have defiler, you start with defiler to cast dark swarm and then a-move your army, so they arrive when the dark swarm pops up. ...in theory >.> | ||
B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
Early game: - Open with overpool or 12 hatch. Overpool is generally the safer option versus cheese although that's not always true, for example versus a 2 gate opening 12 hatch gives you faster larva and the option to build a sunken much faster at your natural. - Drone scout your opponent at 11-12 supply if you want to be safe. - If you see protoss is expanding, place your third hatch around 15 supply at a third location (preferably so you can get a 4th for free). - I've calculated that if protoss goes nexus first => gateway => 1 cannon (which they can vs a 12 hatch opening) that you'll have to take gas by 2min 40seconds (= 10 seconds after your last drone, after you've put down 12 hatch => pool) to get spire up by the time that the first corsair can arrive. This means that with your first 100 gas you should get lair. Next 100 gas goes to zergling speed. - In the early game you'll want to non-stop power drones. But beware of early zealot aggression, it's better imo to make a few extra zerglings to stop any early zealot shenanigans than to potentially lose drones/mining time. These zerglings will also give you the threat to backstab his natural if he stays on one cannon. Mid game: - As soon as your spire finishes, you make 2-3 pair of scourges to defend vs the corsair and to scout his base (!). You have to see what tech he has and how many gateways. If he's teching fast (citadel => archives) and only has 4 gateways he's looking to expand. Often protoss will do a timing attack with their speedlots around 7min 20sec (if stargate first). Very important is that you do not overreact. A proper sim city goes a LONG way at stopping zealot attacks. Now it's important to choose a strategy for you: Do you want to go aggressive (if he only has 4 gates maximum, this is a good option) or do you want to expand instead? - If you go aggressive you have two options: early mutalisks or hydralisks. For hydralisk agression you basically do a standard 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hydralisks: Around 32 supply add a 4th hatchery at your third or natural and an extractor at your natural. Around 35 supply add a 5th hatchery at your natural or third (so not where you placed your 4th). Around the same time, add a hydralisk den and evo chamber at natural/third to get a good sim city at both. Sunken timing will depend on what you see, as a beginner I suggest you get two sunkens at both locations, since one sunken will really depend on your reaction time in certain situations. Generally a good time to get them is after you've placed that 5th hatchery. I'm also a big fan of overlord speed very soon after building a spire. For hydralisk aggression you get speed first then range. Start building hydralisks around 40 supply (which implies at least 25-35 drones, 25 being the bare minimum). You'll want to put pressure relatively soon, especially if he teched up very fast to storm so you can provoke him to storm while you dodge them. It's important that you hotkey your units (I use 1-4 for hydralisks and then 5-0 for hatches). You'll have to get really good at 1a2a3a4a (In fact, I even practiced this by opening up notepad and just going at it 1a2a3a4a5a6a1a2a3a4a5a6a1a2a3a4a5a6a). So to answer your question, generally you'll want to be using attack move (A) to engage his army. Hotkeys will primarily be there to retreat all of your units in a smooth manner or to engage his army similarly. The micro during the fight however does not really depend on hotkeys as much. Here you want to select hydras that are getting stormed and move them back. Another important thing is to try to snipe templars (just select some hydras that are close and focus fire it). However, EVEN better versus storm is to anticipate where he will storm and pre-move your units back. Afterwards you'll have to 1a2a3a4a again. Important side-note: If you're doing hydralisk aggression the point is to attack before he has a lot of templars, most often you'll be attacking the location where he's trying to get up a third or his natural (or even make him move between both locations). It's very important that you keep up the high aggression and drain his templars from storm continuously (preferably by dodging). Taking out his forge is a high priority if you can. BUT if you notice that your hydralisk aggression is failing or he got up his third and you're not going to break it, transition into lurkers OR get a group of mutalisks to snipe his templar while you continue to mass up hydralisks (for the mutalisk transition, you'll often need a third extractor). If you go for this latter route, mutalisks can go on control group 1 while hydras go to 2-4. If you have more hydras, you can even temporarily assign 5-6 for hydras as well). Since you'll probably have overlord speed by now, grouping mutalisks with an overlord is not that great of a choice anymore. You can trap a zergling behind your mineral line instead (or a burrowed lurker if you have any etc). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/94103-help-korean-english-translate#4 This has some details on attack vs patrol vs hold position, especially for mutalisks. Also check out this link: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Mutalisk_Harassment For early mutalisks: You'll have to take a second extractor early and you won't be able to afford 5 hatches before your mutalisks. When you go early mutalisks it's key to complement them with enough scourges, this way you can almost camp the protoss his mineral line killing the cannons and then the probes while scourges zone out his corsairs. After these early mutalisks, you can transition again in hydralisks which are particularly strong as a follow-up since he'll have morphed some templar in archons most likely (= less storms). Hope this helps a bit. | ||
DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
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BruceLee6783
United States196 Posts
I suspect your fundamentals are still very poor, and if that is the case, talking about more advanced concepts isn't going to help much. | ||
DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
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DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
EDIT: heres a game I played and I really dont know what I did wrong. It was 3 base to 1 and I felt I shouldve outproduced him. http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=56600&key=c43126 | ||
Atom[Bomb]
Sweden108 Posts
So I can't see your replay unfortunately. | ||
B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
I hope the replay was the one about the two gateway rush else this is out of place: In general when you see 1 base protoss, you can't get a 3rd hatchery at a new location, you have to put it at your natural. However, if he's going 2 gate, you can't afford that hatchery early on anyway. You'll need to pump nothing but lings and indeed get a sunken as fast as you can. If it's a very aggressive 2 gate you'll need to take two drones to your natural, morph two creeps and cancel the one that he ends up focusing. After you've held those initial zealots, you might need a second sunken or your lings might be enough, this really depends on what has happened so far. In the meanwhile you place your third hatchery at your natural and you try to scout to see what he's doing (overlords). If you can't get any scout in, the response is to get some hydralisks. | ||
vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
There are other styles that you can play, but this is by far the easiest one. All you have to do is survive, make units, and attack. Don't skimp on lurkers. You should have at least 24 of them, and so many hydralisks and zerglings that you don't even have all of them on hotkeys. Eventually you can add defilers, but you don't have to worry about that yet. Just get 3 / 3 and mass units. You win with pure macro, so it's a good style for a beginner. I personally got to B+ in the old ladder system doing almost nothing other than this style in ZvP. Micro can not make up for bad macro. You're not going to win with good micro if you don't have enough units - but bad micro can make you lose a fight that you would otherwise win (clumping up lurkers and getting stormed). Don't try to dodge storms too much. Just keep your lurkers in line formations, and flood in hydras and lings from multiple directions. | ||
XenOsky
Chile2103 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + | ||
DilemaH
Canada402 Posts
1. Is there a way to set a rally point for bases? 2. When should I get a nydus canal, and where should I put them 3. Is it possible to make position hotkeys? | ||
B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
If you have a base with 5-6 hatches and no hotkeys available for them, the most efficient way is to have two camera hotkeys (F1-4 keys): - one centering on all the hatches - second one where you want the rally points to go This will allow you to quickly move from one point on the map to the other by pressing the camera hotkeys while selecting hatches and right clicking where you want the rally points to go. Nydus networks are really important, generally as soon as hive finishes you should get them. Your nydus networks should be connecting places that are far away from each other such as your natural and your third. In ZvT it is even more important to have nydus networks, you'll often see zergs have two nydus networks at their natural, one connected to their third and one to their fourth. | ||
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