I play with this guy a lot so we kinda know how we're going to open. He usually siege expands and goes like crazy with tank count so he can secure a relatively quick 3rd while not making any vultures. And what I've been doing up til now is just going macro crazy which has lead me to win some games. Usually I'll win if I can just out produce my opponent but when I'm up against someone who can macro similarly then that doesn't matter anymore.
So what I think is the issue is that protoss just can't fight a max supply army vs max supply army when it's terran. I think I might need to be more aggressive and trade a lot before he can reach that critical amount of units. But I'm just spit balling. This is bw and no doubt I could've done a million other things better besides just that. But hey lemme know what you think of the game. If you have some insight on what I should or shouldn't be doing let me know. Thanks : )
giving up the game with 12k minerals and 6k gas will not win you games. you never took the base at 12 which is the easiest base to defend after your natural. with your money you could have taken all bases getting cannon/ht for defence while maintaining 5+ arbiters. on fs you dont take a natural base before the main, unless you take both at the same time, all the natural bases can get taken down "quite easy" while its very hard to take down a main position with ht/arbiter because of only 1 small choke and the problem that terrans army can get stuck in the corner of the map while you take rest of the map.
yes you cant win a single max supply vs max supply army, but you dont need to. you were maxed at minute 14, but you did practically nothing except losing small sets of units to terrans slow push. 5 minutes later you did the first attack where you finally used all units at one point, but then you already had 10k minerals. the moment you have max supply you need to recall into enemy base or somehow attack places with all your army so you can trade "somewhat" effectively in order to kill some terran units while you can easily remax (dont lose all army in one go.....retreat when you cant seem to trade). while you do that, take more bases, secure them with cannon/ht and if you want get carriers. also you need more arbiter/ht in your army, goon/zeal alone will melt vs 3-3 terran
basically like he said. i skipped 14 minutes in the video to see what bakuryu meant and one thing i noted is, you are pretty established, but you don't know what do to with your max army. I think you should have won in that situation if you played that a litttle different. So once your maxed, be a bit agressive with your army. You could have made a small attack at his choke at the 14 minute mark (you didnt have recall, so that isnt an option) just to trade. Retreat once you notice, you can't trade any more or when your gas units start dying, you wanna trade mainly zealots, but not the goons and never the ht/arbiters.
- Gas collection: That happens to me sometime too so i know your problem pretty well: you have an okay saturation at 4 bases, yet you are gas starved at around 14 minutes with 3k/ 0 because you take your gas at the 9 0 clock and bottom main and natu too late. It seems small, but in lategame Pvt Gas is important. You wanna be able to do 3 ups at a time, replace your goons and get Arbs from 2 Stargate, mix in some HT, replace obs. That's a lot of gas, so you should always remind yourself to take the gas asaply when you establish a new base.
- Map Vision: once the Terran has slow pushed and has map presence, it can be a struggle to retain map vision vs obs. Yet it is very important, as you can't have an effective fight if you allow them to waltz to your natu choke point unhindered. (21:39 in your vod) So reproduce lost oberservers on the map and make sure to see vital push routes at all times. Researching obs speed can be helpful too.
C-/C toss here, so in doubt listen to the pro's not me (;
On November 29 2015 21:02 Bakuryu wrote: giving up the game with 12k minerals and 6k gas will not win you games. you never took the base at 12 which is the easiest base to defend after your natural. with your money you could have taken all bases getting cannon/ht for defence while maintaining 5+ arbiters. on fs you dont take a natural base before the main, unless you take both at the same time, all the natural bases can get taken down "quite easy" while its very hard to take down a main position with ht/arbiter because of only 1 small choke and the problem that terrans army can get stuck in the corner of the map while you take rest of the map.
yes you cant win a single max supply vs max supply army, but you dont need to. you were maxed at minute 14, but you did practically nothing except losing small sets of units to terrans slow push. 5 minutes later you did the first attack where you finally used all units at one point, but then you already had 10k minerals. the moment you have max supply you need to recall into enemy base or somehow attack places with all your army so you can trade "somewhat" effectively in order to kill some terran units while you can easily remax (dont lose all army in one go.....retreat when you cant seem to trade). while you do that, take more bases, secure them with cannon/ht and if you want get carriers. also you need more arbiter/ht in your army, goon/zeal alone will melt vs 3-3 terran
Yeah I honestly didn't know what to do after I maxed other than getting more gates. But yeah I'll keep that in mind to attack immediately when I max. Makes sense too. As to how I attack though is another thing. seems very tricky to find a way to do damage without losing too much.
A concern I have with using ht to defend my expansions is that it feels like I need as much army as possible to be available to engage with. So having those guys not part of the fight feels like it'd hurt me y'know? Also how well can high templar really do against siege tanks + scans? Appreciate the quick reply : )
On November 29 2015 21:27 Cele wrote: basically like he said. i skipped 14 minutes in the video to see what bakuryu meant and one thing i noted is, you are pretty established, but you don't know what do to with your max army. I think you should have won in that situation if you played that a litttle different. So once your maxed, be a bit agressive with your army. You could have made a small attack at his choke at the 14 minute mark (you didnt have recall, so that isnt an option) just to trade. Retreat once you notice, you can't trade any more or when your gas units start dying, you wanna trade mainly zealots, but not the goons and never the ht/arbiters.
- Gas collection: That happens to me sometime too so i know your problem pretty well: you have an okay saturation at 4 bases, yet you are gas starved at around 14 minutes with 3k/ 0 because you take your gas at the 9 0 clock and bottom main and natu too late. It seems small, but in lategame Pvt Gas is important. You wanna be able to do 3 ups at a time, replace your goons and get Arbs from 2 Stargate, mix in some HT, replace obs. That's a lot of gas, so you should always remind yourself to take the gas asaply when you establish a new base.
- Map Vision: once the Terran has slow pushed and has map presence, it can be a struggle to retain map vision vs obs. Yet it is very important, as you can't have an effective fight if you allow them to waltz to your natu choke point unhindered. (21:39 in your vod) So reproduce lost oberservers on the map and make sure to see vital push routes at all times. Researching obs speed can be helpful too.
C-/C toss here, so in doubt listen to the pro's not me (;
Thanks for the tips. Yeah deluzionz (the guy I played against) suggested observer upgrades too. Might give them a try sometime soon. ^_-
1. you execute your early build strange. > After placing 12 nex you idle around a bit, instead of directly 13th probe + asap gateway > You skip zeal which might be ok since hes crossposition and your opponents seems quite passive, but then building a second gate instead of your fist goon is weird.
2. During early midgame your game seems slightly planless. (Nearly no army + only 4 gates, double forge + many cannons, no fast arbiter, really poor scouting (not knowing bout 3rd - not knowing factory count or possible dropship). Its like you are saying "ok i know, even without scouting, this guy wont push out , i'll prepare for lategame" but then your preperation is suboptimal. What you really want is stuff like: massive gateways, massive basecount, arbiters or stormdrop. From my expirience such stuff rates way higher than early doubleupgrades. Also skip those masscannons by trying to build more army and position this army better.
3. You then scout him taking his 3rd rather late. If you had an army this would be the optimal fight for ya to pick, because you can trade in smaller numbers, zeal drops are highly effective and it is really demoralising for terran.
4. Around the time that you max out: - I like how oyu place your army. I like that you build lots of additional gateways at south. - You fall a bit into sleep. Keep apm up a little and take those nothern bases. Make the game so that even losing the southern bases doesnt kill you.
tactically: You position your army so that you get a massive concave against him when he moves out his bridge which is nice (with stormdrops even better). But you keep zero track of the positioning of his army. Ergo you miss his moveout. After he has established a position outside of his bridge you have to reposition your army, because now he uses the midterrain to protect him against your southern flank.
Also you not only bleed army but you (fail)use your precious first arbiters. Thats a big misstake. Your mindset shoudl be that time is your friend. His main and nat are about to mine out. He desperately needs a fourth. Every minute that you happily mine from 5 bases while you make it hard for him to gain ground brings ya closer to the win. You make it hard for him to gain ground by constantly threatening, but actually not engaging, unless he misspositions drastically. Therefor you dont wanna waste arbs, but threaten with em and let em build energy.
Your army hotkeys are bad. You want your goons most likely to amove while your zeals most likely shall movecommand. Seperate em therefor.
Your denail of repositioning your army leads to all these really messy engagements/execution of protoss units.
Yeah overall you have all the ingrediants to beat him. In the game terran didnt play too strong in my opinion. I think in the whole lategame you could have stompped him if only you would have properly engaged + remacroed.
you are not supposed to randomly wander ht into sieged tanks. you use shuttle with hts, so you can easily get them into position in a big fight, or just attack with big army and storm here and there, he cant kill everything.
considering leaving ht behind for defence, terran hardly will attack with ALL units (in lategame), just because you could easily harass with speed shuttle with ht, recall, clearing mines with goons or just counter attacking. why does terran need to keep a minimal defence up? because the game will not be decided by that 1 single push, because protoss is supposed to have bases all over the place. so leaving like 10 supply behind at bases in ht shouldnt be a problem.
A concern I have with using ht to defend my expansions is that it feels like I need as much army as possible to be available to engage with. So having those guys not part of the fight feels like it'd hurt me y'know? Also how well can high templar really do against siege tanks + scans? Appreciate the quick reply : )
You should just keep some HTs there, not too many. Storm does great damage against mech. You can also use zealots, DTs, arbiter for cloak and stasis. Yes, theoretically T can slowly siege his tanks out of range, keep scanning or have a vessel to spot the HTs, EMP them or snipe them, but: most Ts around your level don't have the apm/multitasking to do that constantly - especially if you attack them elsewhere (recalls on their mains or expansions and ground-attack towards their natural or expansions). They will siege, scan, and then do something else for a while. Good Ps keept forcing scans (they're not infinite) and snipe vessels, then DTs or arbiter-cloak work great. Good Ps keep storming in intervals to stall the advance and trade gas/energy for minerals. If T is busy elsewhere they run cloaked zealots down the ramp, drag mines.
I have big problems against Ps who keep producing HTs, DTs and zealots at their highround on FS (or other map) and keep trading at the ramp, at best with arbiter support. You just want to force T to scan, siege-unsiege as much as possible, lose a lot of units, even if he kills the base eventually. Meanwhile you can take new bases, macro up from your main and send reinforcements.
On November 29 2015 22:24 Bakuryu wrote: you are not supposed to randomly wander ht into sieged tanks. you use shuttle with hts, so you can easily get them into position in a big fight, or just attack with big army and storm here and there, he cant kill everything.
considering leaving ht behind for defence, terran hardly will attack with ALL units (in lategame), just because you could easily harass with speed shuttle with ht, recall, clearing mines with goons or just counter attacking. why does terran need to keep a minimal defence up? because the game will not be decided by that 1 single push, because protoss is supposed to have bases all over the place. so leaving like 10 supply behind at bases in ht shouldnt be a problem.
Alright so I gotta ask the obvious. What are your hotkeys for your army? with special control groups like shuttles with zealots/ht and maybe one just for arbiters (still unsure on how I wanna control my arbiters...since I need them for cloaking my army but also I need them independently moving for when I use stasis and recall) it all seems very easy to mix up. Just ask me I'm pretty good at totally fucking up my hotkeys once I start losing units : P
A concern I have with using ht to defend my expansions is that it feels like I need as much army as possible to be available to engage with. So having those guys not part of the fight feels like it'd hurt me y'know? Also how well can high templar really do against siege tanks + scans? Appreciate the quick reply : )
You should just keep some HTs there, not too many. Storm does great damage against mech. You can also use zealots, DTs, arbiter for cloak and stasis. Yes, theoretically T can slowly siege his tanks out of range, keep scanning or have a vessel to spot the HTs, EMP them or snipe them, but: most Ts around your level don't have the apm/multitasking to do that constantly - especially if you attack them elsewhere (recalls on their mains or expansions and ground-attack towards their natural or expansions). They will siege, scan, and then do something else for a while. Good Ps keept forcing scans (they're not infinite) and snipe vessels, then DTs or arbiter-cloak work great. Good Ps keep storming in intervals to stall the advance and trade gas/energy for minerals. If T is busy elsewhere they run cloaked zealots down the ramp, drag mines.
I have big problems against Ps who keep producing HTs, DTs and zealots at their highround on FS (or other map) and keep trading at the ramp, at best with arbiter support. You just want to force T to scan, siege-unsiege as much as possible, lose a lot of units, even if he kills the base eventually. Meanwhile you can take new bases, macro up from your main and send reinforcements.
I'm a little confused how dts can help defend. Seems like as soon as I'd send one out to attack it'd be dead with a single scan. I guess maybe it'd cause tanks to shoot themselves from splash damage? But yeah I'll start experimenting with high templars defending expansions thanks.
I'm a little confused how dts can help defend. Seems like as soon as I'd send one out to attack it'd be dead with a single scan. I guess maybe it'd cause tanks to shoot themselves from splash damage? But yeah I'll start experimenting with high templars defending expansions thanks.
This kind of thinking is way too static for an RTS game.. If he is watching the scene and you send only 1 DT and he has enough scans, yes, he scans and snap. But in reality it looks like this:
He arrives below your ramp, you retreat up, he sieges some tanks at the lowground and scans, kills a zealot or what. Meanwhile you attack him somewhere else and try to cut off his reinforcements. So soon he is busy there or has to macro. NOW you send the DT in... (or storm from the highground, or send a couple of zealots that are cloaked).
The one DT you send in might drag mines before he gets scanned, or just kill some units before T realizes it or reacts, or draw the fire of multiple tanks and create friendly-splash. It's a combination of distraction and repetition that makes this style very effective. He can only scan so and so often, keep advancing his tanks so and so often, pay attention so and so often.
Ultimately it's skill vs skill, like everything in BW.
On November 29 2015 20:36 Click_Decision wrote:
So what I think is the issue is that protoss just can't fight a max supply army vs max supply army when it's terran. I think I might need to be more aggressive and trade a lot before he can reach that critical amount of units. But I'm just spit balling. This is bw and no doubt I could've done a million other things better besides just that. But hey lemme know what you think of the game. If you have some insight on what I should or shouldn't be doing let me know. Thanks : )
The big bad mech army is Ts only ace in TvP lategame: He cannot tech switch or use something like recall, he has less resources and production overall, he cannot expand and hold expos well in the lategame + Show Spoiler +
(he can hold 1 or 2 bases guarded by his main army, but if you watch enough lategame TvP you know how hard it is for T to get new bases at some point against recall or counter attacks: only where the big army is can T stand against P at some point.)
... but even a mech army of critical mass can be whiped out by a max P army if it's not well prepared, and more importantly: P doesn't lose the game if he doesn't clean up the whole T army.
Basically, I know of two ways Ps use to fight that ace of T: 1) Either they specifically aim for a good trade against that army, because they know that if they trade well, T will be thrown miles behind, has to rebuild and cannot expand or move out. Oftentimes the game is over if that happens because the next time T pushes out, P can just throw one ore two armies at him or recall everywhere, it's a mess. The way they do it is either by going for a big trade right when they max out + Show Spoiler +
(T oftentimes has only tanks and few support units or is not set up correctly defensively or just miscontrols when he moved out too eagerly. It's all situational, but the gain is high: if you get a good trade at this time, you can go 5+ basese and remax quickly, while his most important push is just canceled)
- or they try to just force a good engagement out of T, which requires experience, great control and game sense (or sometimes just bit of luck and cold-bloodedness) These Ps know: "I can always reatreat from an attack and refill my army, but if T messes his setup once, I will get the trade that i need". + Show Spoiler +
(These Ps stay very active with their army, soft-contain T, force T to siege-unsiege, use spells like stasis and storm well, threaten with counter-attacks, and constantly keep an eye on T with observers)
2) Or, if T is carefull and doesn't let his army get caught unprepared, they start a war of multitasking and various skirmishes. They send probes out to expand at multiple locations (with cannons and some gates), they counter attack/recall against T's expos or recall the T's mainbase, they stall T's push with storms and stasis and cannons and mine-drags until they pick apart the isolated T army bit by bit. It's a war of attrition where you abuse the fact that T always has to keep most of his forces together while you can strike on multiple fronts and spread yourself out on the map with your bases. T has to keep pushing and pushing until he killed all your bases or he will never win, you make him lose as many units as possible while he does that. Meanwhile you can win by 1.) shutting down his 1 or 2 fresh expansions 2.) recalling his main/shutting down his production 3.) gathering your forces again at some point and crushing the remains of his big army. + Show Spoiler +
T will have to defend at many different places, and in small numbers his units are not so strong, but still very hard to control. Most of my games of this kind I lose at some point because I "forget" to control my main army for too long because I'm busy defending recalls and counter attacks - or a combinatin of all the shit.
Ps who can do both - see and seize any chance to punish T for bad control by taking their army head-on, and meanwhile transition into the long attritional macro game if they have to - are incredibly hard to beat by uninspired 3base-max-army play.
im sry but i dont play protoss so i dont have a protoss hotkey setup. but if i would play protoss, i would do it similar as i do it with zerg defiler. arbiter, who are with the army, are 1 arbiter per hotkey, at the beginning of the hotkey group together with goon/zeal/whatever. that way the icon will always be at the top left corner of the group even if units die and also all arbiter will be split out "by default" when you prepare for an attack, so its easier to avoid emp.
I'm a little confused how dts can help defend. Seems like as soon as I'd send one out to attack it'd be dead with a single scan. I guess maybe it'd cause tanks to shoot themselves from splash damage? But yeah I'll start experimenting with high templars defending expansions thanks.
This kind of thinking is way too static for an RTS game.. If he is watching the scene and you send only 1 DT and he has enough scans, yes, he scans and snap. But in reality it looks like this:
He arrives below your ramp, you retreat up, he sieges some tanks at the lowground and scans, kills a zealot or what. Meanwhile you attack him somewhere else and try to cut off his reinforcements. So soon he is busy there or has to macro. NOW you send the DT in... (or storm from the highground, or send a couple of zealots that are cloaked).
The one DT you send in might drag mines before he gets scanned, or just kill some units before T realizes it or reacts, or draw the fire of multiple tanks and create friendly-splash. It's a combination of distraction and repetition that makes this style very effective. He can only scan so and so often, keep advancing his tanks so and so often, pay attention so and so often.
Ultimately it's skill vs skill, like everything in BW.
So what I think is the issue is that protoss just can't fight a max supply army vs max supply army when it's terran. I think I might need to be more aggressive and trade a lot before he can reach that critical amount of units. But I'm just spit balling. This is bw and no doubt I could've done a million other things better besides just that. But hey lemme know what you think of the game. If you have some insight on what I should or shouldn't be doing let me know. Thanks : )
The big bad mech army is Ts only ace in TvP lategame: He cannot tech switch or use something like recall, he has less resources and production overall, he cannot expand and hold expos well in the lategame + Show Spoiler +
(he can hold 1 or 2 bases guarded by his main army, but if you watch enough lategame TvP you know how hard it is for T to get new bases at some point against recall or counter attacks: only where the big army is can T stand against P at some point.)
... but even a mech army of critical mass can be whiped out by a max P army if it's not well prepared, and more importantly: P doesn't lose the game if he doesn't clean up the whole T army.
Basically, I know of two ways Ps use to fight that ace of T: 1) Either they specifically aim for a good trade against that army, because they know that if they trade well, T will be thrown miles behind, has to rebuild and cannot expand or move out. Oftentimes the game is over if that happens because the next time T pushes out, P can just throw one ore two armies at him or recall everywhere, it's a mess. The way they do it is either by going for a big trade right when they max out + Show Spoiler +
(T oftentimes has only tanks and few support units or is not set up correctly defensively or just miscontrols when he moved out too eagerly. It's all situational, but the gain is high: if you get a good trade at this time, you can go 5+ basese and remax quickly, while his most important push is just canceled)
- or they try to just force a good engagement out of T, which requires experience, great control and game sense (or sometimes just bit of luck and cold-bloodedness) These Ps know: "I can always reatreat from an attack and refill my army, but if T messes his setup once, I will get the trade that i need". + Show Spoiler +
(These Ps stay very active with their army, soft-contain T, force T to siege-unsiege, use spells like stasis and storm well, threaten with counter-attacks, and constantly keep an eye on T with observers)
2) Or, if T is carefull and doesn't let his army get caught unprepared, they start a war of multitasking and various skirmishes. They send probes out to expand at multiple locations (with cannons and some gates), they counter attack/recall against T's expos or recall the T's mainbase, they stall T's push with storms and stasis and cannons and mine-drags until they pick apart the isolated T army bit by bit. It's a war of attrition where you abuse the fact that T always has to keep most of his forces together while you can strike on multiple fronts and spread yourself out on the map with your bases. T has to keep pushing and pushing until he killed all your bases or he will never win, you make him lose as many units as possible while he does that. Meanwhile you can win by 1.) shutting down his 1 or 2 fresh expansions 2.) recalling his main/shutting down his production 3.) gathering your forces again at some point and crushing the remains of his big army. + Show Spoiler +
T will have to defend at many different places, and in small numbers his units are not so strong, but still very hard to control. Most of my games of this kind I lose at some point because I "forget" to control my main army for too long because I'm busy defending recalls and counter attacks - or a combinatin of all the shit.
Ps who can do both - see and seize any chance to punish T for bad control by taking their army head-on, and meanwhile transition into the long attritional macro game if they have to - are incredibly hard to beat by uninspired 3base-max-army play.
Dang yeah wow it's interesting seeing you put it to words but holy hell will it take a lot of experience for me to become good enough to manage all those ideas in game. But getting better and better is half the fun so I'll enjoy the journey in the meantime : )
Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation appreciate it.
I should say I'm also nothing but a yellow-rank Terran but I only picked up the game in recent years, so I always feel I can relate to people seeking advice, but better sources are better obviously.....
If all that conceptual crap I wrote is not helping you in the end ^^:
I think your main problem is that you don't dare to attack, and that is because you don't have (and never will have) perfect vision of that Terran-meat-grinder-army and because you get scared away by the first wave of tank-shots which kills your front row (that's normal).
Like bakuryu already pointed out, something is fundamentally wrong (and thus easy to fix!) if you leave a game with 10.000 resources... just burn those resources for a start, it will make the game look very different.
My best advice: In a situation like after 14.30 min, try to find a good moment to attack for a while... but if he get's close to the middle of the map: JUST ATTACK for now, full force, zealots in front with arbiters following, all army from one side AT ONCE, maybe some spontaneous flank from top/bottom or left/right and stasis once everything is moving, but just take a heart and throw your full army at his and see what that does... don't expect to win the game, just see what a full out attack on that "invincible" army does. If you can set up a soft-contain like in your game, your army spread around his nat, and if you're maxed... just throw everything at him if he sticks his head out for now... and start rebuilding your army immediatelly, take more bases.
furthermore: - observers, you need to build observers and send them as close as possible to his turret-ring (make an observer-ring as far forward as possible), keep some in the back, to the sides of where he is most likely to push... you need to roughly know where his army is, how thin it is spread and how much of it is sieged (to find a good time to strike) - have all your army on hotkeys (or at least like 5 hotkey of army), you must be able to move it quickly - you should spread your units and try to flank, yes, but not separate your army... you had 1-2 control groups standing around idle down south and 1-2 groups getting killed by his army. Look how progamer-Ps move their armies around in one big field... I recommend you practice fluid movement with your maxed army around the middle of FS in a custom game for a while
On November 29 2015 21:02 Bakuryu wrote: the moment you have max supply you need to recall into enemy base or somehow attack places with all your army so you can trade "somewhat" effectively in order to kill some terran units while you can easily remax (dont lose all army in one go.....retreat when you cant seem to trade).
I dont want to pick on this too heavily but I disagree with this part. The thread creator commented saying he specifically noticed this snippet of advice too, and plans to follow it. Im just worried because often I see protoss players lose units in small attacks and recalls, then not have enough muscle to dent the Terran army, leading to a loss eventually. Well the number one quick tip I offer is 'Kill the Army'. Ofcourse Im massively simplifying. Its just a quick tip. So yeah, backstabs/recalls=bad, kill the army=good.
If you are going to be fighting max vs max, you need lots of arbiters and high templars, preferably in shuttles. Or carriers and high templars. One of those two.
Send in all arbiters from different directions and clone them like you're using spawn broodling. Then focus on your storm drops while your arbiters are already set up. Make sure to unload your templars when the siege tanks have already fired and are on cool down. After that, just spam as many storms as you can.
By lots of arbiters, I mean at least 5. And by templars, I mean around 8 in shuttles, and possibly more on the ground.
If you have the money, go for the ultimate army. Don't settle for a cheap army unless you have to.
On November 30 2015 09:08 vOdToasT wrote: If you are going to be fighting max vs max, you need lots of arbiters and high templars, preferably in shuttles. Or carriers and high templars. One of those two.
Send in all arbiters from different directions and clone them like you're using spawn broodling. Then focus on your storm drops while your arbiters are already set up. Make sure to unload your templars when the siege tanks have already fired and are on cool down. After that, just spam as many storms as you can.
By lots of arbiters, I mean at least 5. And by templars, I mean around 8 in shuttles, and possibly more on the ground.
If you have the money, go for the ultimate army. Don't settle for a cheap army unless you have to.
Who the hell carries 2 shuttles full of HTs and 5 arbiters with energy? Srsly that tip doesn't make any sense. Yeah it's not a bad idea but in 99% of the situations this is not possible and is also very hard to pull off. The norm should be if the T player is just letting you do w/e you want just expand everywhere and make a lot of gates. If he is maxed as well and not doing anything he's just gonna run out of money before you. Use recall too. Ofc if your army is getting absolutely destroyed in an engage then your problem is probably army control and adding 2 shuttles won't help if u can't control zealots and goons.
Lots of good advice in this thread. I skimmed through the vod and you are indeed making a ton of mistakes in every part of the game. Ill just talk about the lategame stuff though and basically agree or disagree with what everyone has said.
I agree with most everything that bakuryu said, except for the part where you need to immediately attack after being maxed. This depends entirely on if terran has displayed any weaknesses, assuming you are playing a "standard" macro style that isnt depending on a maxed timing attack. There are builds where you can attack immediately, but it didnt look like that was your plan. I would say that if you are maxed and terran hasnt moved out yet, and doesnt have any glaring weaknesses (such as lack of turrets/units being out of position), then recalling or any other immediate aggressive is probably going to be better for the terran than yourself. With his army so close by he can easily just clean it up with minimal losses and then counter you, and then you dont have any stasis built up to defend yourself with. Its also entirely possible you misjudge his weakness and end up recalling into a fortified position, which is even worse.
Molotow gave solid advice, I agreed with all of it.
Highgamer also made good points, only thing I dont like is that he seems to be advocating leaving a bunch of high templar or dark templar at multiple expansions. I dont think this is good, I think its going to weaken your standing army considerably if you ever attempt to engage with full force. Many pvt lategame scenarios end up avoiding a max vs max engagement, but that doesnt mean you shouldnt be prepared for that eventuality and be able to bring everything to bear at once. The fact that terran will probably have to keep a few tanks at home to defend his 3rd/4th etc against recalls does not make it ok that you do the same. Protoss base defense is vastly different than terran base defense, because protoss have cannons which can attack ground, while terran do not have any static defense buildings that attack ground, so they are forced to leave units behind or remain vulnerable. Given that you are already in a disadvantaged position in a head on fight vs terran, it doesnt make sense to further weaken yourself by leaving 10 or 15 supply of units idle around the map. The point of base defense is not to be able to engage your opponents entire army (in any matchup), only to stall enough time so that your economy cant be ravaged before your existing forces are able to save the base. To this end, all you need is cannons. Obviously you will not be able to fight tanks with cannons, but for the terran to be able to move a tank force to any of your expansions and siege all the cannons down should give you ample time to move reinforcing units of your own to that base before your economy is harmed.
I think that the scenario highgamer described where you defend a highground base with templars and other units will still happen though, even if your intent isnt to keep templars at each base. You should have a gateway cluster at each of your "main" bases, and any time that the terran pushes forward enough to kill the natural, he will have a hard time advancing up the ramp because you should be reinforcing units from those gateways, which will likely include high templar.
I also agree with voddys advice, except for the numbers of templar and arbiters. 2shuttles full of templar is excessive, not only because it takes up too much supply, but because in an engagement its just going to be impossible to cast that many spells before the battle is over. 8 templars is too many even for pvz. 5arbiters seems a bit excessive as well, but its good if youre going for mass recalls. Having the ability to stasis over the amount of actual fighting units becomes much less useful after a point.
So to outline a good (imo) lategame PvT plan with a standardish macro style:
#1 Secure as many bases as possible before the terran maxes. Being maxed is NOT an excuse to float money, take every base you can and secure it with cannons and add gateways. Once you get to 5 bases, you should have about 24 gateways to be able to not die if terran pushes right away, you will need all of them. I like to split 12 gateways in my main and 12 in my second main. It looked like you had the same idea, but with not enough gateways, i think you only had about 16, this is definitely not enough. In your game, once you secured the second main, you shouldve also secured the top right bases and built another gateway cluster there. You couldve had 8 bases and 36 gateways before your opponent attacked you, and having all that stuff already set up makes it extremely hard to lose. You lost your main base? So what, rebuild the core, templar archives, stargate and arbiter tribunal. Terran loses his main, hes done. Once you have such a huge lead in bases over terran, you literally dont ever have to engage max vs max if you dont want to, you can just keep countering to whichever base is least defended.
#2 When the terran does move out, wait for him to make himself vulnerable. Before he moves out, its pretty hard to do damage - tanks are sieged and will rape your army, his expansions are all close by and can be easily defended. But the more bases the terran tries to either attack or expand to, the weaker he becomes, which is when you can attack. If you want to fight head on, you must attack while he is MOVING, not in a fortified position. If he only inches out slowly then you have no incentive to attack, you can simply wait for him to mine out, and counter whenever he tries to expand. I noticed in your game he didnt take a 4th base, so was likely almost mined out by the time you left the game. All you had to do was take a decent engagement when he unsieged most of his tanks, and then keep reinforcing with all your gateways until he ran out of money. A decent engagement is pretty much the opposite of what you did in that game. Do not spread your army on opposite sides of a fortified turreted/mined area. Do not send in lone arbiters and stasis parts of his army but then not fight him, and do not fight at all unless it is with your entire strength. If you didnt throw random units away so much, one of two things couldve happened that game: either he moves out far enough past his turret line to actually threaten any of your bases, in which case you intercept his army while moving, or he keeps inching slowly, in which case you dont ever engage him directly and start recalling everywhere, take the map if you havent, and prevent him from keeping any more bases. Terran will eventually either have to commit to attacking or let you take the whole map, so is actually better for you when he moves out really slowly like your opponent did. The longer he takes to threaten any of your expansions, the more time you have to secure more nexuses and gateway clusters so that you if you are forced to engage on his terms, you will have an infinite amount of reinforcement potential to do it with.