REPLAY: #*$& Terran
PvT 3 Base
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olabaz
United States298 Posts
REPLAY: #*$& Terran | ||
Ty2
United States1430 Posts
Here link i found by typing "PvT", filtering only for bw strat threads http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/499328-so-im-definitely-doing-something-wrong-pvt http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/488682-newer-player-hitting-a-wall-in-pvt http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/393823-lategame-pvt-how Search for more by typing PvT into search bar and filtering for starcraft brood war strategy threads only. | ||
dRaW
Canada5744 Posts
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Probemicro
3708 Posts
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Vasoline73
United States7674 Posts
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Jealous
9974 Posts
On January 18 2016 18:13 Vasoline73 wrote: Arbiters + take many bases + pylon walls everywhere + tons of gates (at expansions too) = GG This. If Terran is sitting on 3 base, that gives you free reign over the other 3/4 of the map (usually). So take another main base, or both even, and add gateways at those bases. That way you can set your rally points in such a manner that you always have a flanking army regardless of where they push. Tech to Arbiter and use Stasis for his pushes, Recall for his bases. You can go 2 Stargate. Don't forget templar, storm and attack upgrades. You can get up to 5/6 bases, then spread your Probes evenly. That way, even if you lose a base or two before stopping the first push, it's not tragic and you might have time to save some of the Probes anyway. | ||
puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
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Cele
Germany4012 Posts
On January 18 2016 18:13 Vasoline73 wrote: Arbiters + take many bases + pylon walls everywhere + tons of gates (at expansions too) = GG that's the standard to react to it. Make sure to have gates at your main and 1 big expansion, Start recalling him when you are maxed and he still turtles or use Stasis+Storm in shuttle+reinforcements from all your gates to deal with his push. | ||
Wrath
3174 Posts
On January 18 2016 01:46 olabaz wrote: How are you supposed to beat a terran that just turtles on 3 bases. I can't find a win. Any tips? REPLAY: #*$& Terran Take the whole map because he cannot take a 4th without pushing. Then get mass gateways and keep throwing stuff at his doom train until it fades. Some recalls there and there will be quite helpful. This is what i always lose to as a Terran | ||
shall_burn
252 Posts
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
like let's say you have a +1, or +2 attack advantage of your carriers over his mech armor upgrade (+2 is possible if you started it really early since he should upgrade mech attack first and armory comes much later than cyber), that makes 2 or 3 carriers kills a unit like a tank or goliath very fast. Since carriers work like they have to start targetting something for 1 second or 2 before interceptors start shooting, you don't kill stuff that much faster by getting more carriers unless you split their fire.. so in such a case your 2-3 carriers are a big threat that don't take a lot of supply. If you stop there and T makes a lot of unecessary goliaths, even better :D you could even do a little bit of everything, like go for one path (arbiters/mass gates storms or carriers..) but prepare tech/production for the other path to mix it up when you replenish from 200/200 after fight. Or go carriers but do get an arbiter or two before 200/200. If you stasis goliaths when he has just about enough to fight your carriers, you can pull your ground units off the battle area and feel good ^_^ | ||
ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On January 18 2016 15:30 Probemicro wrote: Why, mind control an scv, start teching and build tanks for your own. Nuke that turtle for good measure and this, mind control SCV and go tanks, is freaking COOL I tried this a bunch of times it's hard to pull off but if successful it's really... awesome :D lol last time I tried that I took the SCV I stole to build 4th expansion and vultures sniped him in 2sec sliding past my goons, like "yeah you know T workers have to remain vulnerable while they build protoss noob!" and there goes the T tech as well as the 4th expansion timing since no more SCV to continue building that CC^^ but when you do get to the tanks and things, what can become imba in case you made a start for this and the game lasts a while with big resources, is that the T supply you have is separate from your P supply so you could get 30 tanks or whatever on top of your 200/200 P supply. I think if you do it's got to be GG. | ||
olabaz
United States298 Posts
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ArmadA[NaS]
United States346 Posts
1) Why is your core so late? You build your gas at standard time, but make a pylon before your cybernetics core and as a result, you have a huge gas build up at the start of the game (you can afford to get core on 13, when you make your second pylon). The start of your build looks kind of like a PvP build actually. 2) Don't take your "natural third" if you're expanding towards the terran- it just makes his push come faster. You would be better to take your third at the 6 o'clock (where you took your fourth). 3) Your upgrades were really weird. You decided to get +1 armor -> +1 shield -> +2 armor. Is there a particular reason why you didn't favor weapons upgrades? 4) If there is no immediate push you need to deal with, send your first observer to terran's main to scout factory count/ army composition. Letting it sit with your army does nothing and allows them to get complete turret coverage. It's good that you send an observer to his choke to scout when he pushes out, but if you sent that immediately you could have vision of his base and the second observer could be sent to the choke at about the same time. 5) Your dragoons (which you are quite passive with in the early game) should do 2 basic jobs- block vulture runbys and clear mines. Splitting off a few goons to block ramps/kill mines allows you to get your economy going on time and defend much easier in the late game. 6) Your templar archive got built and didn't really do anything for a while. If just wanted to get arbiter tech, build the stargate first then archive so they finish at the same time. If you are on 5 base w/ arbiter tech and they haven't pushed yet, you can afford to get 4 templar + storm in a shuttle. 7) You needed way more zealots in your composition (you only had 10 zeals and he only 9 vults when he pushed). Use your observers and adjust your army comp. Will edit in some more later. | ||
SolaR-
United States2685 Posts
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olabaz
United States298 Posts
On January 21 2016 01:40 f10eqq wrote: Some things from watching the replay really fast: 1) Why is your core so late? You build your gas at standard time, but make a pylon before your cybernetics core and as a result, you have a huge gas build up at the start of the game (you can afford to get core on 13, when you make your second pylon). The start of your build looks kind of like a PvP build actually. 2) Don't take your "natural third" if you're expanding towards the terran- it just makes his push come faster. You would be better to take your third at the 6 o'clock (where you took your fourth). 3) Your upgrades were really weird. You decided to get +1 armor -> +1 shield -> +2 armor. Is there a particular reason why you didn't favor weapons upgrades? 4) If there is no immediate push you need to deal with, send your first observer to terran's main to scout factory count/ army composition. Letting it sit with your army does nothing and allows them to get complete turret coverage. It's good that you send an observer to his choke to scout when he pushes out, but if you sent that immediately you could have vision of his base and the second observer could be sent to the choke at about the same time. 5) Your dragoons (which you are quite passive with in the early game) should do 2 basic jobs- block vulture runbys and clear mines. Splitting off a few goons to block ramps/kill mines allows you to get your economy going on time and defend much easier in the late game. 6) Your templar archive got built and didn't really do anything for a while. If just wanted to get arbiter tech, build the stargate first then archive so they finish at the same time. If you are on 5 base w/ arbiter tech and they haven't pushed yet, you can afford to get 4 templar + storm in a shuttle. 7) You needed way more zealots in your composition (you only had 10 zeals and he only 9 vults when he pushed). Use your observers and adjust your army comp. Will edit in some more later. Thanks for the analysis. As far as the late core, sometimes I open up with a zealot first to harass the T if he's going for a greedy opening. I usually expand away from the terran but this time I was trying out a different expo. I upgrade armor first because I think it's a better stat than weapons. If my dragoon gets hit by 2 tanks (splash) its armor buff is applied twice where as the weapons apply only once per dragoon attack. (I think it works like this?) I will try to build more zealots. I usually try to get 22 Dragoons and the rest zealots but maybe my ratio was off this game. Also I usually have some HT with my army but they get sniped/emp I'll have to try with a shuttle. | ||
ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
sure it works like you say, but the important question other than saved damage VS extra dealt damage, is does that change the number of hits before a kill? when tanks hit goons, they hit for a lot of damage, killing it in 3 hits. If you have +1 armor, they still die in 3 hits, and your armor doesn't apply to hits that only damage shield, the first hit. Basically, with tank hits, you take a few very big hits, so your armor doesn't apply often. If you look in terms of percentage, -1 applied to 70 is not much more than 1%. For splash you get twice, or 4 times the effectiveness of armor, so it becomes somewhat effective for 4 times more efficient (furthest from center, 25% damage). For zealots they take /2 cause small, now that's 8 times more efficient for tank smaller splash, nice, but only for damage to health, rest of time no /2 and no +X armor. Vulture hits to goon health however are very diminished by armor (20% per point). your attack now is a +10% for goons and a little more for zealots, and the first point changes the number of hits for a goon vs tank : 8 hits without +1attack, 7hits with +1attack. That's a bigger deal than armor. Goon vs vulture : 6hits without +1, 5hits with +1, almost +20% more effective. Usually vultures just want to run away when they get hit by goons, so you want to kill them faster rather than mitigate their damage. Zealot attacks get more mitigated by T armor but still gain more to their attack power than they gain defense with armor. Plus, you'll want to kill especially tanks before they get to fire an extra hit, so for defense it's better to kill them faster^^ If T makes bio it's a different story. In PvT, if you go for early carriers, it can seem funky to upgrade air armor first & early because it does mitigate goliaths nicely, but it's not really worth it, more expansive, goliath upgrades scale twice better, and dodging their attacks by killing units faster is again better for defense, so attack upgrade first maybe always is better (doesn't get mitigated nearly as much too since T upgrades weapons first). In PvZ, I've been experiencing with going armor first and in this case it can be nice, against glings hydras and mutas. However I found something weird : zealots are supposed to be small, and they do take half damage from tanks or goons, but against hydras they take 7 instead of 10, like they were medium (???). Still, 1 substracted from 7 is very efficient. If you manage to get a very early +2 armor, you can terrorize glings & hydras, but the cost is high, you can only open that way in certain cases (no 3 hatch, no early lair). Early shield is always bad (?) since you never gain the size defense bonus on it, its base is always 0, and it's twice as expansive, even though it affects all units & buildings. But, if you get to +3 armor early enough in the game, it's nice to go for shields asap because you can eventually get extra +3 armor ticks in battles earlier, every time the shield of a unit recharges 1 point (then you get 3 damage reduction for shield, plus 4 damage reduction from armor on hit every 2 seconds). I believe I saw someone on stream go shield first recently with success as he was going air+ground (was it against terran?? can't remember). Shields are good for archons and you can even recharge them with shield batteries.. it's still hard to make it worth it other than as a late game general expanse though. | ||
Highgamer
1346 Posts
Your macro is good, but far from flawless. You can have more probes, more units, more production earlier, and your bases could have been up earlier - even more so as Terran is completely passive for a while after taking the super-quick 3rd (see below). I'd say you could have been in the same situation you were in when he moved out - but a minute or two earlier, that is HUGE, it's an eternity in BW and you will need that time. Don't let Terran get away with a free 3rd on 1 factory and 3-4 tanks like that, it's a strategical and tactical blunder. You didn't pressure him in return (even though he build the 3rd on-location) and your 4th was too slow for a proper double-expand-reaction. + Show Spoiler + That Terran opened very safe, but took his 3rd super greedy on 1 factory. You can deal with this very well as long as you expect it: After Terran takes the natural, normally it's either a 2-base timing or a 3rd, generally a little later in reaction to your own 3rd. You should plan to either counter Terran's greed with more greed or to punish Terran's greed, for example with a bulldog, reaver-harrass or just well timed goon-pressure. In this game he took the 3rd after checking your natural-nexus and goon-count with an SCV-scout, on 3-4 tanks total, no mines on the map, no scans used. He had turrets and tried to place his tanks carefully (and wasted money on 3 depots at the 3rd that he didn't need at that point), but given his limited information I think it was a bold gamble. Never let that happen if you're not busy taking a quick 3rd yourself (should be earlier than his) and even if that's the case you can try to punish him. You could just have attacked his natural or 3rd location when he did his move and done a lot of damage, at least obstruct his play a lot. Get early observers or be more active/aggressive with your goons in that phase. Especially if you don't see vultures (like in this game): just poke in and see what's there (or use your zealot like you did). Don't let him get that base for free, in the meantime you can get your 3rd up safely. He did some nice damage with his vultures and his drop worked out well for him, too. That's just situational stuff that favored him. Reason why you lost the first big engagement: Not enough speed-lots and no stasis ready. Apart from that, still: Overall you did a lot of the good things (even though not as crisp as could be) until you decided to go carriers IMO in a situation where it was a risk. If you're maxed out, expecting his push and add carrier-tech and starports in that phase instead of more gates, then, if your attempt to crush his push fails like it did, you will neither be able to reproduce your army quickly nor will your carriers finish in time. It was a gamble to invest into carriers and it backfired, that's all. + Show Spoiler + edit: Carriers are imba ^^, of course you can use them if you're good at it, but AFAIK you go carrier if you think you can get to a critical count at the time when Terran's push reaches your base/expos. Generally that means that a) you're hiding your carriers for as long as possible (risky by definition) or b) you have to have enough ground-army and enough production to buy time for your (semi-hidden) carriers. Thus, if Terran gets his 3rd up super quickly it's kind of bad to go for carriers straight away I'd say, cus either way a) he has 3 scans and should see what you're doing and b) if you cut down on gateway-production you basically open up a window for an earlier timing for him (then he produces 2-3 rounds of goliaths - he has enough gas and 10+ factories - to fight your carriers). Like others wrote, there are better ways to deal with a fast Terran 3rd if you cannot stop it. For example A) prepare a super fast maxed-push on 3 bases (with arbiters or storm if you want) to cripple/reset his tanks-count while taking a 4th and 5th base, B) go for 4 bases and a lot of production, tech to arbiters and expect his push with a maxed army (or prepare a recall) and take more bases (with cannons, gates) as soon as you can afford it. | ||
Freakling
Germany1525 Posts
On January 22 2016 02:56 ProMeTheus112 wrote: armor upgrade VS T : sure it works like you say, but the important question other than saved damage VS extra dealt damage, is does that change the number of hits before a kill? when tanks hit goons, they hit for a lot of damage, killing it in 3 hits. If you have +1 armor, they still die in 3 hits, and your armor doesn't apply to hits that only damage shield, the first hit. Basically, with tank hits, you take a few very big hits, so your armor doesn't apply often. If you look in terms of percentage, -1 applied to 70 is not much more than 1%. For splash you get twice, or 4 times the effectiveness of armor, so it becomes somewhat effective for 4 times more efficient (furthest from center, 25% damage). For zealots they take /2 cause small, now that's 8 times more efficient for tank smaller splash, nice, but only for damage to health, rest of time no /2 and no +X armor. Vulture hits to goon health however are very diminished by armor (20% per point). your attack now is a +10% for goons and a little more for zealots, and the first point changes the number of hits for a goon vs tank : 8 hits without +1attack, 7hits with +1attack. That's a bigger deal than armor. Goon vs vulture : 6hits without +1, 5hits with +1, almost +20% more effective. Usually vultures just want to run away when they get hit by goons, so you want to kill them faster rather than mitigate their damage. Zealot attacks get more mitigated by T armor but still gain more to their attack power than they gain defense with armor. Plus, you'll want to kill especially tanks before they get to fire an extra hit, so for defense it's better to kill them faster^^ If T makes bio it's a different story. [...] Unit type applies | ||
ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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