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What I mean is that you seem to suggest that dragoon armour is way more efficient against Vultures due to their large unit type vs. the Vultures' concussive attack. Your number suggests the following calculation:
20 [Vulture base attack] * .25 [attack type vs. unit type modifier] - armour = 5 - armour
which gives you your 20% per point of armour (actually it would be even 25%, considering a goon's 1 base armour)
However, in reality it works like this:
(20 [Vulture base attack] - armour) * .25 [attack type vs. unit type modifier]
So what you really gain is only an ~5 % reduction per point of armour.
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Really?? I thought unit type applies before armor just like you said in your previous post so that it should be (20[vultDamage] * 0.25[vsBig]) - Armor isn't it??
I thought it worked this way but :
edit: huuuu now actually it seems i was wrong all along cause zealot never take 7 damage from hydra but 4 xD and you are right armor applies before unit type;; lol, this is why I believed there was a size exception for zealot but it's not the case at all xD
so armor first pretty much sucks for protoss^^ damn I'm probably never doing this again in pvz lol
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Just don't run your 200 army vs his 200 army, poke here and there, attack when he unsieges to pick up mines/vultures and a few tanks here and there, at the same time, keep macroing, if you see him attacking any of your bases with no intention of retreating, recall the shit out of him, keep observers arround, and DENY 4th base this is KEY, if he takes 4th and can defend properly while taking down your expos, you lost the game.
when he turtles on 3 bases you should at least have 5 bases, keep a decent pylon block on your expansions and use dragoons to clear vulture harrass.
eventually he will run out of minerals, you should keep expanding and making gates EVERYWHERE!, if he can kill 2 of your expos and be on even bases with you, u lost the game right there.
use ht /arbiter at cliff to defend main bases, remember templars are really good vs mech so if he clumps a bunch of tanks on the lowground to take your cannons storm the shit out of those. few cannons to make him siege, and keep macroing, always macroing.
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Out expo and macro/micro better more units/more expansions.Study the pvt matchup.Search any strategy you can find on pvt strategy watch bisu/all the other protoss players right now that are playing(big names).Also out upgrade the opponent with better upgrades and more of them!
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On January 27 2016 12:33 TheGreatOne wrote: Out expo and macro/micro better more units/more expansions.Study the pvt matchup.Search any strategy you can find on pvt strategy watch bisu/all the other protoss players right now that are playing(big names).Also out upgrade the opponent with better upgrades and more of them! And in other words: You have no glue
I want to see helpful posts about PvT especially on FS, I had to switch to ZvT since I couldn't win PvTs on that map even tho it used to be my best match up in the past > For me it just seems like terran can take three bases for free and then start killing my bases. It's impossible to win terran army head on and recall is weak when terran uses turrets, mines and vessels properly..
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On January 30 2016 01:43 Piste wrote: For me it just seems like terran can take three bases for free and then start killing my bases. It's impossible to win terran army head on and recall is weak when terran uses turrets, mines and vessels properly..
It's natural that you have that kind of impression when you face a problem that will require practice to increase your overall skill, but then the answer cannot really be found in a clever post. Everything you need to know has already been said in this thread or can be read in other PvT threads (maybe you cannot take it in in the way it's been said...). If you can do a build order properly, macro well and move your army fluently, then what you say about PvT is just wrong. It probably means that at the moment you are facing Terrans that can outplay you no matter what you do because they are better players, not because Terran is unbeatable. + Show Spoiler +I myself can get really frustrated after too many TvP losses, too, and then I start pointing out all the 'imbalance' that I'm facing. Then, when I watch my replays later, I always realize that I made mistakes or didn't use chances. Sometimes one is really stuck at a skill level where the opponent has advantages, but there's always room for improvement - and then it's just a personal question of whether or not you want to make the effort to move on.
- Terran cannot take those 3 bases 'for free' if you harrass or pressure them at the right times - if you don't know how to do that, there is no way around analysing your replays and see if you made macro mistakes or check in which phases you could have attacked but did not do it. IF Terran plays really safe towards a 3base push so that you cannot harrass or pressure them at all, it means that you have enough time to out-macro them.
- It's very possible to 'win terran army head on'. It might be impossible if if they're perfectly sieged and mined up and your arbiters/templars all got EMPed, but Terran cannot just pull all that off multiple times in all of your games unless you play too slow in general. If that's the case, then you don't scout, flank, poke, threat, counter enough - aka your army movement and map-control is not good enough, so you have to practice more.
- Recalls would be imbalanced if they would be strong even when Terran invests time and money into all the proper counters. There are times and places to recall (e.g. a fast recall before/during Terran's first push, before they can set up all the defense; or later if you scouted a weak spot with observers or flew past the turrets/mines with 2 arbiters or hallucinations), but recalls cannot work anytime.
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On January 30 2016 03:22 Highgamer wrote: - Terran cannot take those 3 bases 'for free' if you harrass or pressure them at the right times - if you don't know how to do that, there is no way around analysing your replays and see if you made macro mistakes or check in which phases you could have attacked but did not do it. IF Terran plays really safe towards a 3base push so that you cannot harrass or pressure them at all, it means that you have enough time to out-macro them. You cannot straight out outmacro a terran that is going for safe 3 bases unless he is that bad, after starting a 3 base push he will take more expansion of course. 3base TvP on FS is most likely the safest way to TvP on FS.
- It's very possible to 'win terran army head on'. It might be impossible if if they're perfectly sieged and mined up and your arbiters/templars all got EMPed, but Terran cannot just pull all that off multiple times in all of your games unless you play too slow in general. If that's the case, then you don't scout, flank, poke, threat, counter enough - aka your army movement and map-control is not good enough, so you have to practice more. I have to disagree with you and say it is not possible to kill 200/200 terran army with 200/200 protoss army unless terran makes bad army control mistakes.[/quote]
Recalls would be imbalanced if they would be strong even when Terran invests time and money into all the proper counters. There are times and places to recall (e.g. a fast recall before/during Terran's first push, before they can set up all the defense; or later if you scouted a weak spot with observers or flew past the turrets/mines with 2 arbiters or hallucinations), but recalls cannot work anytime. Recalling before terran moves out is same as suiciding units.. And if terran has a good antirecall defence after that, you need luck to pull it trought.
You're a terran right? Could we play a few PvT's on FS so you can give me more detailed advice?
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On January 30 2016 09:30 Piste wrote: You cannot straight out outmacro a terran that is going for safe 3 bases unless he is that bad, after starting a 3 base push he will take more expansion of course. 3base TvP on FS is most likely the safest way to TvP on FS.
I give it another try, even though you ignored most of what I wrote.
All the Terrans who don't always win if they go safe 3base on FS in TvP - that is: 99% of all Terrans - are 'just bad', huh?
Are you A-rank or something or C/B on Fish? I'm just a C- rank Terran and you might be better than me, but your general statement on 'safe 3base TvP on FS unbeatable' is just idiosyncratic, everyone who watches BW would have good reasons to criticize that. Why don't all the afreeca-korean-terrans have TvP 100% winrate on FS then?
Of course you can outmacro a Terran that goes 3base on FS. For example if P goes for a greedy expo-pattern (Bisu does this all the time), or if there is any interaction between your army and his that goes in your favor (needs good game sense and micro of course), but not if you play 100% reactively to what T does and sit in your base with your units all day. By outmacro I mean that you are maxed before he is, have Arbiter out, and squeeze in a 5th base before/during his push (Best did this all the time). I call that out-macro because in that situation you lead in supply, income and production at that point (doesn't matter if that's normal for P in PvT or not). Terran's only chance is a good engagement because normally T can not out-macro P (aka lead in supply, income and production). So Protoss' goal is to kill 1/2 of Terrans army, more if possible, and then widdle down the Terran army with their superior production, or sac one base while taking another one, do a recall on the 3rd/4th. It's situational... I've seen Piano or Sea or Mind and others, even Flash lose games like that, so those are 'not just too bad'. The Protoss players who do it 12nex/ 1gate expo and take 3 bases before T can get his 3rd up and then take another quick 4th while Terran is busy expanding, or go 2gate aggression and force T to build more army before taking the 3rd while they double expand on 2-3 gates, or they surprise Terran with a reaver or camp the third location and delay the 3rd. It's situational, but you cannot tell me that you've never seen Terrans roll out with a 3base push against a maxed Tosses with arbiters on 4-5 bases with a ton of gates - in which case P has all the chances to win.
I have to disagree with you and say it is not possible to kill 200/200 terran army with 200/200 protoss army unless terran makes bad army control mistakes.
Again that argument: "unless terran makes bad army control mistakes". In BW it's always about one player making mistakes, or rather: it's about the better player making the other make mistakes, void point there.. Do you only play the top koreans? Do you think you play as well as can be? You think all of Terrans have perfect control? How can you treat BW as if it was 100% static and calculable? You do know the concept of micro? That an engagement can go either way depending on how well the players perform?
On top of that you just completely ignored my point there: I said you can force Terrans into mistakes, by moving your army well. They cannot be perfectly sieged and mined up every time. You want to avoid a fight against a perfectly set-up Terran army and you can. I just cannot tell you to "move to location X on FS, then to location Y, then...", it's situational, it takes good map-awareness and army-control. Watch how Bisu or other Ps do it, they position their army to force Terran into multiple sieges. They keep observers around to scout when the time for a 200 vs 200 engagement is suitable. Have you never seen Protoss players win games after Terran got a maxed Terran army? Then you don't watch much BW... Also: Because you should have the macro-lead I explained, you don't have to kill 100% of Terran's army, you just want to kill half of his army or more if you can. Then Terran moves on, but has to be more careful, and you can rebuild your army and strike before he's maxed again. You do all this on a macro-advantage, you can lose a base, take 1-2 more bases away from his push, harrass his 4th, attack his natural to stop reinforcements...
Recalling before terran moves out is same as suiciding units.. And if terran has a good antirecall defence after that, you need luck to pull it trought.
Recalling the 3rd or right on his main CC is very annoying for Terran if all his units are in the natural, it's not suiciding units. Again you make a statement that completely ignores that BW is situational: Sometimes such a recall surprises Terran and gives you time to build 5 more gates and 1 more base. Also: you can fly the arbiter in, and fly out again - but T will have to react. And again: If you did not need luck when Terran invested time and money to prepare for your surprise/one-shot strategy !!!, how would you call that? + Show Spoiler +
IMO you treat this game as if you could win by following a perfect plan, when in fact it's very situational. Maybe you yearn for that easy solution because on your skill level the TvP-matchup is pretty hard. You need instinct, cold-bloodedness, boldness, a little bit of luck. It's not a math task. You do as if at the start of the lategame the winner is already decided, when in fact the lategame is the most dynamic and unpredictable part of the game.
You're a terran right? Could we play a few PvT's on FS so you can give me more detailed advice?
Sure, replay analysis is oftentimes much better.
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You don't need to kill a maxed T army in one push- just kill as much as you can and save your gas units (goon/templar/arbiter), remax on zealots, and kill them with the second wave. Inefficient trades are ok since you want to out-eco them.
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Even normal protoss thinks he can win against flash in Bo1. That's what protoss's mind is :/
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On January 31 2016 03:58 LaStScan wrote: Even normal protoss thinks he can win against flash in Bo1. That's what protoss's mind is :/
lol for real?
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On January 30 2016 09:30 Piste wrote:but your general statement on 'safe 3base TvP on FS unbeatable' is just idiosyncratic I did not say that, I am aware that protosses win terrans all the time on FS. I'm just a C- rank Terran Yeah let's end this here.
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0% contribution, 100% ignorance.
byebye
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Highgamer, as Terran you shouldn't help Protoss in PvT anyway, there are already too many of them.
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If you don't help we don't help!!!! :D
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There are three ways of doing it
1:
Carriers. Watch Shuttle for examples.
2:
Non stop recall. This only works if you get it going early and never let up. You need momentum. Watch Bisu for examples.
3:
Prepare for the push. Get a lot of arbiters with stasis spread out in a semi circle, ready to flank the Terran when he comes out. Also have high templars, possibly in shuttles. Get an insane economy and lots of gateways everywhere. You won't win the battle cost effectively, but you don't have to. You just have to kill enough units, preferably tanks, and then get another army up.
The key to this is getting good stasis fields and storms.
Watch any high level Protoss for examples - this scenario occurs a lot on Fighting Spirit and maps like it. Jangbi vs Flash in the last OSL, or the second last one, one of those two, shows this. It was on the map Pathfinder.
The people saying that a 3 base terran can't be beaten: They are wrong. I base this on playing Terran and Protoss at a reasonably high level by foreigner standards, and by watching the korean experts. The methods that I mentioned above can beat 3 base Terran.
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On January 31 2016 07:05 Highgamer wrote:0% contribution, 100% ignorance. byebye Well, if you read your "advice", there is actually nothing to learn from them. You're just saying to micro and macro better. Yeah, I can have 4/5 bases with arbiters and second set of gates before terran moves out. But that is not what I call outmacroing, that's standard pvt. If you're just a better macro player, then it's outmacroing. But micro and macro are just skill level on mechanic side of the game, not strategical. I wanted to learn PvT on FS when terran goes for 3base, how to use the map features into your advantage (ie how to deal with those central walls after terran is out on the map :S) I'll just try those continous recalls or focus more on trying to crush the first move out from terran..
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On January 31 2016 21:09 Piste wrote: Well, if you read your "advice", there is actually nothing to learn from them. You're just saying to micro and macro better.
Cannot let that be. I'm saying much more than that, tell you how to pick your strategy (openings and expo timings), what manoevers to make, why recall works or works not - but I realized by now that you don't read posts thoroughly ("he's just C-, what can I learn from him?"), instead you just blast through them, so you won't change your opinion probably. You keep throwing those inaccurate, general verdicts out there like candy, that gives you the feeling of "I'm cool as ice" seemingly - but turns down everyone else. My comment on OP's replay was very detailed - because there was something specific to comment on...
Yeah, I can have 4/5 bases with arbiters and second set of gates before terran moves out. But that is not what I call outmacroing, that's standard pvt. If you're just a better macro player, then it's outmacroing. But micro and macro are just skill level on mechanic side of the game, not strategical. I wanted to learn PvT on FS when terran goes for 3base, how to use the map features into your advantage (ie how to deal with those central walls after terran is out on the map :S) I'll just try those continous recalls or focus more on trying to crush the first move out from terran..
What you need is not only strategical advice, everything in this category has been said in this thread. From what you wrote, I think you need to up your tactical play, learn what to actually do with your units once you have them - and as I hinted, noone can write down how to move your army in all situations without writing a 10 page post that wouldn't help you in the game itself. You have to study pro-games and review your own replays (or post them here..), develop a sense for why something works sometimes and sometimes not. You're like a football player asking someone to write down all the possible situations for you when to shoot, dribble, fall back, defend etc. Everyone would tell you that that's not possible.
To engage the Terran army on FS, of course you want to hit him where you can make big arks, flank him or counter attack. This can be done pretty much everywhere in the middle of FS, there is enough room to all sides of the middle walls. You can even sandwich him right in the middle from two sides sometimes, or press him towards the sides of the walls. You need observers to see where he goes at all times. Don't let your templars/arbiters get EMPed. You have to keep your army close to him but out of siege-range, force him to siege, stall his push so that he cannot make ground for free while you keep macroing and build up a bank. Terrans are scared when they see your whole army charging in on them, they have to siege-full-stop, that's the most important thing. When the time is opportun - his army doesn't look well organized, everything is unsieged, you see a good bunch of units to stasis, or if you stalled long enough and he gets close to your bases - you attack like VodToast described in his point 3, with the rather modest goals of what your attack should achieve in mind, because you should have a macro advantage.
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Had finally some succes today by concentrating on what vodtoast said. Thank you!
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