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Hello,
I am a competitive sc2 player looking to pick up BW and start competing at a reasonably high level. I have a few questions for some of you who have been around awhile and understand where the tools are and how to use them.
1) What is the best centralized source of replays from up to date highest level games? Is there a special client I need to watch them?
2) Which ladder would you recommend for getting the highest volume of games in the least amount of time. (average skill level of said ladder is meaningless to me for now) 3) Is there a good database for non-obvious micro mechanics that I will need to know? For instance, I know that muta micro is researchable, I know that I can absorb a lot from pro replay engagements, but are there other important 'tricks' to know about movement before just experiencing it?
4) Anything else I need to know regarding improvement? If all else fails I know that pro replay study is all I really need but I appreciate any advice from someone who has tried to improve themselves and learned about the process. Thanks!
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On January 19 2016 03:02 mAnarch wrote: Hello,
I am a competitive sc2 player looking to pick up BW and start competing at a reasonably high level. I have a few questions for some of you who have been around awhile and understand where the tools are and how to use them.
1) What is the best centralized source of replays from up to date highest level games? Is there a special client I need to watch them?
2) Which ladder would you recommend for getting the highest volume of games in the least amount of time. (average skill level of said ladder is meaningless to me for now) 3) Is there a good database for non-obvious micro mechanics that I will need to know? For instance, I know that muta micro is researchable, I know that I can absorb a lot from pro replay engagements, but are there other important 'tricks' to know about movement before just experiencing it?
4) Anything else I need to know regarding improvement? If all else fails I know that pro replay study is all I really need but I appreciate any advice from someone who has tried to improve themselves and learned about the process. Thanks!
1.
The replay thread contains some high level replays: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/310883-replays
2.
ICCUP
3.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Micro_Tips
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
#4.
<div style="font-size: 32px;">YOU WILL NOT WIN</div>
Now, what do I mean by this? It is not a discouragement from playing the game, but rather the realization that brood war is the toughest game made. The game is very different from sc2 that it will take you a very long time to even begin to get close to winning a game. Some people take 100s of games before they win their first game. But here is the thing; winning your first game of brood war is euphoria, pure bliss. Brood war truly does reward hard work and dedication and you'll know when you win that first game after a long and intense game of macro, 300+ apm managing your units and you see the coveted words "GG" in chat. It will be tough and very discouraging to keep losing and losing, yet it makes all the wins taste so much sweeter.
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1) on iccup website you find some replays too
2) ICCup is good, Fish is more difficult to get into but once you have if you don't lag you should be able to get games non stop I guess?
4) i would say gg gl hf :D
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Perfect thank you guys, the micro tips section is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for the replay resource as well. And amazingxkcd, thank you! The fact that it is the toughest game ever made is the exact reason I want to play.
After doing some reading it looks like fish is the ideal spot assuming I can get OK ping.
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On January 19 2016 04:45 mAnarch wrote: Perfect thank you guys, the micro tips section is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for the replay resource as well. And amazingxkcd, thank you! The fact that it is the toughest game ever made is the exact reason I want to play.
After doing some reading it looks like fish is the ideal spot assuming I can get OK ping.
note that on fish, koreans will not play you if you don't have the map right away and or if they see you're not korean (ping will give it away). And there's like 100+ versions of fighting spirit floating around so just be patient since you'll still get a lot of games
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On January 19 2016 04:45 mAnarch wrote: Perfect thank you guys, the micro tips section is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for the replay resource as well. And amazingxkcd, thank you! The fact that it is the toughest game ever made is the exact reason I want to play.
After doing some reading it looks like fish is the ideal spot assuming I can get OK ping.
i very much have to encourage you NOT to start on fish. You were mentioning "skill level is not the important thing" but starting as player who doesn't know BW on fish is like starting as a person with no RTS experience in top 20 Grandmaster KR. Im not exaggerating. All foreigners (non koreans) that play fish are veterans of the game who play the game for years and are considered high skilled by foreign standards.
If you feel unsure about this, feel free to write me a PM. We can play some games on ICCup and go from there :>
As a beginner, unless you are the 1 exception out of 1000, you will find the ICCUp skill range very high and very tough to break even on the lowest 2 ranks.
An other good source of replays is: ICCup replay section
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On January 19 2016 04:55 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 04:45 mAnarch wrote: Perfect thank you guys, the micro tips section is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for the replay resource as well. And amazingxkcd, thank you! The fact that it is the toughest game ever made is the exact reason I want to play.
After doing some reading it looks like fish is the ideal spot assuming I can get OK ping. i very much have to encourage you NOT to start on fish. You were mentioning "skill level is not the important thing" but starting as player who doesn't know BW on fish is like starting as a person with no RTS experience in top 20 Grandmaster KR. Im not exaggerating. All foreigners (non koreans) that play fish are veterans of the game who play the game for years and are considered high skilled by foreign standards. If you feel unsure about this, feel free to write me a PM. We can play some games on ICCup and go from there :> As a beginner, unless you are the 1 exception out of 1000, you will find the ICCUp skill range very high and very tough to break even on the lowest 2 ranks. An other good source of replays is: ICCup replay section
Ok, I appreciate that advice and will consider it. I will be spending my first dozen hours playing alone and mastering build orders before playing anything rated. Once I figure out my race and get my bearings I will take you up on your offer.
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Awesome, will download all of them. Is there by chance a 2014-2015 source for Korean replays?
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
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Perfect, was right in front of me. Thanks again all, now to decide my race.
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On January 19 2016 03:02 mAnarch wrote: Hello,
I am a competitive sc2 player looking to pick up BW and start competing at a reasonably high level. I have a few questions for some of you who have been around awhile and understand where the tools are and how to use them.
2) Which ladder would you recommend for getting the highest volume of games in the least amount of time. (average skill level of said ladder is meaningless to me for now)
Clearly this is Fish. I don't understand why anyone answered iccup. Seems like they didn't actually read what you were asking, but looks like you figured this out on your own.
Now, if you're looking to join a team or find other players to chat/theorycraft with at some point then this won't happen on Fish unless you speak Korean, so you can check out iccup when that time comes.
Also, people of the BW community run D/C rank leagues fairly reguarly (both teamleagues and individual leagues). This is the one that's running now http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/497918-r-and-s-amateur-teamleague so you might check it out and look for the next one to pop up. It'll be a good way to test your progress and find some practice partners.
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United States1428 Posts
When you studiously play, striving to learn StarCraft 1 to play competitively there are going to be times when a person will want to and will give up. There's a pipe dream amusement and excitement about trying a new activity but the fun factor of Sc1 and Sc2 are somewhat different. Most people who try to attempt to play Sc1 at a competitive level from the start after playing Sc2 end up quitting not long after setting off on their journey in an anticlimactic, abrupt end after what seemed like an optimistic beginning.
In the mentality to improve, the situation is easy to burn yourself out from trying to consume a large amount of information and at the same time feeling out of place from going from high level sc2 to being bad in Sc1. You want to be competitive right out the gate but I'd suggest starting slow and realizing the process is going to take time, lots of it. Some people would instead rather play Sc2 again unless Sc1 is that much more fun to the person for the person to relive a deep learning curve for a game they enjoy enough to commit to. Purely working reasons of study stem from how Sc2 is dominated by 1v1 ladder play as "the thing" to do. I think a lot of it gets brought over to Brood War but doesn't usually get translated well as the games are vastly different. People set out with these high reaching goals but inevitably never reach them because of how difficult the game is beyond initial expectation. That said, I'd say fun is the most important part, and in your case the fun of improving and analysis could be the fun part. Also, I always recommend people go look up day9's podcasts, including "Having a Good Mindset."
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On January 19 2016 06:29 fearthequeen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 03:02 mAnarch wrote: Hello,
I am a competitive sc2 player looking to pick up BW and start competing at a reasonably high level. I have a few questions for some of you who have been around awhile and understand where the tools are and how to use them.
2) Which ladder would you recommend for getting the highest volume of games in the least amount of time. (average skill level of said ladder is meaningless to me for now)
Clearly this is Fish. I don't understand why anyone answered iccup. Seems like they didn't actually read what you were asking, but looks like you figured this out on your own. Now, if you're looking to join a team or find other players to chat/theorycraft with at some point then this won't happen on Fish unless you speak Korean, so you can check out iccup when that time comes. Also, people of the BW community run D/C rank leagues fairly reguarly (both teamleagues and individual leagues). This is the one that's running now http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/497918-r-and-s-amateur-teamleague so you might check it out and look for the next one to pop up. It'll be a good way to test your progress and find some practice partners.
sorry flying, but did you perhaps not read his post properly? Yes with his intention, fish is the right place, since it's more active then ICCup. But do you honestly want to tell this guy, it's a fine place for beginners, with the skill level being as high as it is, when you informed me yesterday that it doesn't make sense for ICCup players to go fish unless they play around a stable B rank? I find it hard to imagine a new player will be able to go there quick and on low ranks you find in fact plenty of games on fish. Plus dealing with the language barrier, high ping, koreans kicking you out games and the 30 melee wins to join ladder rule, i can't imagine why it would be a good place to start for a beginner.
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If youre aiming to study pro bw, I recommend the TPPD BW (Korea) section, pretty much every televised game played since 2005 or something is archived there, if youre looking for the highest level of play then go there.
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On January 19 2016 06:29 fearthequeen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 03:02 mAnarch wrote: Hello,
I am a competitive sc2 player looking to pick up BW and start competing at a reasonably high level. I have a few questions for some of you who have been around awhile and understand where the tools are and how to use them.
2) Which ladder would you recommend for getting the highest volume of games in the least amount of time. (average skill level of said ladder is meaningless to me for now)
Clearly this is Fish. I don't understand why anyone answered iccup. Seems like they didn't actually read what you were asking, but looks like you figured this out on your own. Now, if you're looking to join a team or find other players to chat/theorycraft with at some point then this won't happen on Fish unless you speak Korean, so you can check out iccup when that time comes. Also, people of the BW community run D/C rank leagues fairly reguarly (both teamleagues and individual leagues). This is the one that's running now http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/497918-r-and-s-amateur-teamleague so you might check it out and look for the next one to pop up. It'll be a good way to test your progress and find some practice partners.
Awesome, good to get some confirmation on Fish being the best place for high volume practice.
As far as theory crafting, I'm under no illusion that I'll be doing that any time soon, and prefer referencing a replay over word of mouth.
Team leagues would be a lot of fun, maybe I will set a goal for myself to participate in the next one.
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On January 19 2016 06:29 fearthequeen wrote:
Clearly this is Fish. I don't understand why anyone answered iccup. Seems like they didn't actually read what you were asking, but looks like you figured this out on your own. partners.
I think people did but came to a more realistic judgement. For instance, he thinks he can absorb tricks by watching pro replays. Even if FPReps were still around, he'd be swamped by the sheer magnitude of the outdated interface, than he'd actually learn. If, and only saying if, he is a quick study and has a large amount of experience of "how to properly macro" in SCII, he might kick-start to an old D+. That's where he'll be stuck for another few months.
It's a little as if some kid asks "where to drive my first car [got no license yet, but used to ride a bobby car in my dad's driveway]" and you answer with "Germany's Autobahn would be a good idea".
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On January 19 2016 07:47 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 06:29 fearthequeen wrote:
Clearly this is Fish. I don't understand why anyone answered iccup. Seems like they didn't actually read what you were asking, but looks like you figured this out on your own. partners.
I think people did but came to a more realistic judgement. For instance, he thinks he can absorb tricks by watching pro replays. Even if FPReps were still around, he'd be swamped by the sheer magnitude of the outdated interface, than he'd actually learn. If, and only saying if, he is a quick study and has a large amount of experience of "how to properly macro" in SCII, he might kick-start to an old D+. That's where he'll be stuck for another few months. It's a little as if some kid asks "where to drive my first car [got no license yet, but used to ride a bobby car in my dad's driveway]" and you answer with "Germany's Autobahn would be a good idea".
I apologize if I didn't word it more clearly above, the 'tricks' are the very thing I know that I will not be able to absorb from watching a pro replay, which is why I asked for a resource.
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On January 19 2016 07:31 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 06:29 fearthequeen wrote:On January 19 2016 03:02 mAnarch wrote: Hello,
I am a competitive sc2 player looking to pick up BW and start competing at a reasonably high level. I have a few questions for some of you who have been around awhile and understand where the tools are and how to use them.
2) Which ladder would you recommend for getting the highest volume of games in the least amount of time. (average skill level of said ladder is meaningless to me for now)
Clearly this is Fish. I don't understand why anyone answered iccup. Seems like they didn't actually read what you were asking, but looks like you figured this out on your own. Now, if you're looking to join a team or find other players to chat/theorycraft with at some point then this won't happen on Fish unless you speak Korean, so you can check out iccup when that time comes. Also, people of the BW community run D/C rank leagues fairly reguarly (both teamleagues and individual leagues). This is the one that's running now http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/497918-r-and-s-amateur-teamleague so you might check it out and look for the next one to pop up. It'll be a good way to test your progress and find some practice partners. sorry flying, but did you perhaps not read his post properly? Yes with his intention, fish is the right place, since it's more active then ICCup. But do you honestly want to tell this guy, it's a fine place for beginners, with the skill level being as high as it is, when you informed me yesterday that it doesn't make sense for ICCup players to go fish unless they play around a stable B rank? I find it hard to imagine a new player will be able to go there quick and on low ranks you find in fact plenty of games on fish. Plus dealing with the language barrier, high ping, koreans kicking you out games and the 30 melee wins to join ladder rule, i can't imagine why it would be a good place to start for a beginner.
Actually I did, as I was the only one who actually answered his question..."Which ladder would you recommend for getting the highest volume of games in the least amount of time. (average skill level of said ladder is meaningless to me for now)"
You don't have to play the ladder on Fish either, and as you mentioned you actually can't instantly play it anyway. But, melee games on fish offer higher volume compared to iccup as well. So, yeah, sorry that I actually answered his question when everyone else ignored it. If he's looking for high volume then still, Fish is the place to go. If he tries and it doesn't like it, he can make the decision to switch to iccup himself, no reason he can't try.
On January 19 2016 07:47 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2016 06:29 fearthequeen wrote:
Clearly this is Fish. I don't understand why anyone answered iccup. Seems like they didn't actually read what you were asking, but looks like you figured this out on your own. partners.
I think people did but came to a more realistic judgement. For instance, he thinks he can absorb tricks by watching pro replays. Even if FPReps were still around, he'd be swamped by the sheer magnitude of the outdated interface, than he'd actually learn. If, and only saying if, he is a quick study and has a large amount of experience of "how to properly macro" in SCII, he might kick-start to an old D+. That's where he'll be stuck for another few months. It's a little as if some kid asks "where to drive my first car [got no license yet, but used to ride a bobby car in my dad's driveway]" and you answer with "Germany's Autobahn would be a good idea".
That's a bad analogy as it puts the kids life in danger. I'm pretty sure playing on Fish doesn't do that. Worst that'll happens is he'll lose some games and realize he doesn't want to start there. But, honestly I'm tired of everyone telling new players to avoid Fish at all costs. Let them try it out. Some Fish melee players are actually quite low level. My point is he can try it himself and make his own decision. It might actually be a good place to initially gather some of his own replays to study.
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