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Hello guys, I've been hearing stories from many people from my clan, KaL, said that Hero is using a bit old style opening, but more likely modern version looking build order in ZvP.
I heard that Hero even took down bisu much much easier by this build, and other zerg streamers are adapting this as well.
This is the general Build Order: Overpool - (3 h gas or 2 h slight faster gas 3 h) - Metabolic Boost - 12 Zergling timing - 5 h gas - Ground Carapace +1 Spore - Hydralisk Den - Muscular Augments - 2 gas - Lair & Grooved Spines - Ground Carapace +2 & Melee Attacks +1 into Lurker Hive.
Pro: - Carapace +1 Zergling needs to be hit 3 times by Att +1 zealot. 24 lings will be happy to trade against zealots. - Hydralisks are tankier than normal build opening. - Hive is fast with well done upgrade. Therefore, Adrenaline zergling lurker with swarms will be scary for protoss.
Con: - the map where protoss can do 1 gap super tight wall
Detail: Zerg has to get 12 zerglings before speed finishes in order to do timing attack and deny probe scout. This speed lings are much faster timing compare to Hydra rush or standard opening. This 12 zerglings are the key point of the build order. It can kill a cannon or two cannons, and the leftover zerglings will be harassing the protoss's main base. If there are a few probes to block with 1 cannon zealot, you must force to kill some probes to go in.
Thanks for reading, and have fun!
- Scan
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On June 09 2016 16:54 LaStScan wrote:
Pro: - Hydralisks are tankier than normal build opening.
not a valid Pro
0/0 hydra die in 6 hits to 0/0 zealot (life regen) 0/1 hydra die in 6 hits to 0/0 zealot 0/1 hydra also die 6 hits to 1/0 zealot same for 0/2 hydra same for dragoon. (by the time toss secures 3rd and pushes out with goons toss should already have or near +2atk)
i know the emphasis of this build is ling/lurker army, but this should not be stated as a"pro". Tankier only in the early game
otherwise great writeup would be nice if there are VODs to accompany it
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On June 09 2016 17:12 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2016 16:54 LaStScan wrote:
Pro: - Hydralisks are tankier than normal build opening.
not a valid Pro 0/0 hydra die in 6 hits to 0/0 zealot (life regen) 0/1 hydra die in 6 hits to 0/0 zealot 0/1 hydra also die 6 hits to 1/0 zealot same for 0/2 hydra same for dragoon. (by the time toss secures 3rd and pushes out with goons toss should already have or near +2atk) i know the emphasis of this build is ling/lurker army, but this should not be stated as a"pro" otherwise great writeup would be nice if there are VODs to accompany it
You might be right, but It is still useful when you are transitioning into hive defiler. Also, protoss is not going to make zealots only. zealots really can't fight against hydralisks in midgame, btw.
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On June 09 2016 17:43 LaStScan wrote: Also, protoss is not going to make zealots only. zealots really can't fight against hydralisks in midgame, btw.
protoss needs storm. carapace don't work against that :-)
also the build places more emphasis on lings throughout the game helping to tank for the hydras(normal builds usually just masses hydra ONLY early mid game), goons aren't good against lings. bisu did not go for goons either in that game, which was correct imo despite his loss.
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i dont like this build
ehm... what bisu game are you talking about
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On June 09 2016 19:51 Bakuryu wrote: i dont like this build
ehm... what bisu game are you talking about
Well. I stated "I heard" so I don't know. Maybe you can search for his VODs.
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On June 09 2016 17:59 Probemicro wrote: bisu did not go for goons either in that game, which was correct imo despite his loss.
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Well, hydras are indeed tankier, because the usual case is 0 carapace vs +1w zealots which means they die in 5 hits instead of 6 till zerg reaches +3 carapace which is only in the late game. Missile attack is better for pure hydra i think, but carapace benefits all units (especially zergling vs zealot)
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On June 10 2016 22:34 ortseam wrote: Well, hydras are indeed tankier, because the usual case is 0 carapace vs +1w zealots which means they die in 5 hits instead of 6 till zerg reaches +3 carapace which is only in the late game. Missile attack is better for pure hydra i think, but carapace benefits all units (especially zergling vs zealot)
with this build you are supposed to be going lings+hydra with the lings to tank the damage. so "hydra being tankier" is not a key benefit. if your hydras are somehow taking damage all the time (because you are not really building lings) you might as well just go +1 missile first like regular builds. also hydras can kite.
not to mention your missile upgrade is delayed in this build compared to regular mass hydra builds (where their carapace is delayed), so this would have consequences if not for the fact that you are going ling+hydra.
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you guys are picking fights over the smallest thing possible. this is a cool build scan, thank you for sharing it.
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?
all i see are discussions, not squabbles. like bakuryu, i have doubts with the efficacy of this build. want to see more of this build at pro level and protoss response to conclude whether its actually good.
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it's a fairly simple concept, you abuse protoss greed by using probes to wall with the 12 lings and force damage with a faster hive. less time on hydra means less time dodging storms and trying to get adrenal and swarm. sorry for implying you guys were fighting it's just that a 0/1 hydra is tougher than a 0/0 hydra. it's just the intrinsic nature of the fact. they will take longer to die to zealots, i know it's not ideal to tank zealots with hydras but not everyone has hero micro you know?
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On June 11 2016 00:17 ecnahc wrote: it's a fairly simple concept, you abuse protoss greed by using probes to wall with the 12 lings and force damage with a faster hive. less time on hydra means less time dodging storms and trying to get adrenal and swarm. sorry for implying you guys were fighting it's just that a 0/1 hydra is tougher than a 0/0 hydra. it's just the intrinsic nature of the fact. they will take longer to die to zealots, i know it's not ideal to tank zealots with hydras but not everyone has hero micro you know?
you are sacrifcing dps (faster missile) for that little toughness. also i think in the vid hero takes +1 melee instead of +1 missile first like i said carapace are also useless against storm and dont do anything really for archons
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saw effort use something similar too a few times, at least it was fast carapace into mass HydraLing. he didn't get Lurkers and got really fast Hive for plague
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I would like to mention that my guide might not be 100% right. It could be carapace +2 and melee +1 for zergling and hive transition. I personally wrote missile +1 and carapace +2 because you are mixing hydra ling lurker.
While I was writing this post, I was thinking deeply about it. It seems more ideal to go carapace +2 and melee +1 because your hive is fast. I'll edit my main post of the upgrade order.
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I watched two hero fpvods and he's using 3 evo cambers before Hive, also no lurkers at all just mass hydra/ling/defiler. fun style if nothing else
game here vs Bisu
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On June 12 2016 09:42 LaStScan wrote: I would like to mention that my guide might not be 100% right. It could be carapace +2 and melee +1 for zergling and hive transition. I personally wrote missile +1 and carapace +2 because you are mixing hydra ling lurker.
While I was writing this post, I was thinking deeply about it. It seems more ideal to go carapace +2 and melee +1 because your hive is fast. I'll edit my main post of the upgrade order.
Here's why I agree with Scan on +1 carapace:
If you go for a fast hive, the way you play is going to change from having a lair-centric army to hive-centric. On hive, zerglings are going to deal more dps than hydralisks, and you want to plan ahead for your tech choice. If you do a lurker-first opening (which used to be really popular) you can get all your stuff: drones, tech, upgrades, etc., but you don't have army superiority, so you can't move out until hive, and most Zerg players hate forfeiting map control. When you turtle up, though, you can get three evolution chambers, and can do a sort-of-late-game lurker/hydra/ling thing, but since zerglings are going to be dealing a majority of the damage, you want to give them the carapace upgrade so they can last a little longer when the adrenaline gland upgrade kicks in.
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Any suggestions on how would be best for protoss to deal with this?
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+1 4 gate speedzeal without corsair
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