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Hello, art_of_turtle.
I watched the replay you posted. Here are the mistakes you made.
1. At 2:48-3:00, you had Drones running around not mining. 2. Use the Drone at the natural at 3:10 to place a 3rd Hatchery in that position so the buildings form a wall. You did well to bring it back from the bottom left once you realized he wasn't going for a Forge FE. Building the 3rd Hatchery at another natural when he's going for something aggressive on 1 base isn't a good idea since you have 2 locations to defend as opposed to 1. 3. With the first 50 gas you mine, build a Hydralisk Den asap. You built the Extractor on time. Good job with this. 4. From here, build and upgrade your Hydras off 3 hatcheries and defend against whatever 1 base build he's doing. Huddle your Overlords at the natural where your Hydras are amassing. Once you feel you defended against his attack you can try and apply some pressure. Wait for Ovie Speed if there are DT's out. 5. Build a Sunken Colony when he attacks to help defend. Unless some sort of Shuttle is in play, you can bet he's gonna have to go through your natural to attack you. 6. In a 3 Hatch Hydra build like this, make sure you have 1 Drone per mineral patch to get maximum mining efficiency. After you build the Hydra Den, make a few more Drones and an Overlord so you have 9 Drones mining in your main and 2 Drones mining at the natural. This is the minimum economy you need to support 3 Hatch Hydra. 5sh6sh7sh is what you should be spamming. 7. You shouldn't talk in the middle of a game.
In this game the Protoss player went for Corsairs, which should be fairly harmless since he didn't couple them with DT's. He knew where your scouting Overlord was when his first Corsair came out because you sent it in a straight line from his base to the center. He simply followed the direction. Next time send the Overlord in a different direction once you're out of sight so he can't track it so easily (perhaps to the bottom right in this game).
But yeah, at around 3:10 you kind of floundered and let your money/larva accumulate. You built the Hydralisk Den quite late and you had a lot of idle larva from 3:00-3:30. You spent too much attention microing the Zerglings. I guess it's also because you were trying to decide what to do. If you built the Hydra Den with your first 50 gas, you would've had enough Hydras out in time to deal with the Corsairs and whatever puny attack he could throw from 1 Gateway. The reason his attack was successful this game was because of your lapse in macro.
Since he's teching so fast, he is vulnerable to Lings early on. However, if you go for Overpool, you can't really punish him for it. 9 Pool and 5 Pool are better suited for that. Just sit back, tech to Hydras, and mass up. 1 Gateway can't hold against Hydras from 3 Hatcheries in the long run.
By the way, my max rank with Zerg is D-, so take my advice or leave it. Happy hunting~
Sincerely, Shalashaska_123
Edit: Grammar fix
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1. 3 idle larva even for a little bit hurt zerg a lot this early in the game. 2. He sees the overlord with his returning probe, so it's not weird at all he "found" it with the sair. The moment the sair starts hitting the overlord you should start making another so that you don't get supply blocked. Had you made an overlord there, you could have the extra hydras faster, crushed his attack and probably won the game just before the cannons went up (if he made nexus before cannons) These two things are enough to cost you the game, you could also use a scouting ling to see if he's expanding/moving out but you probably felt safe with no lair 2hatch hydra against one gate worth of units + Show Spoiler +I would also prefer keeping the lings alive to force probe drills/scout followup but that's just a personal thing
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You wasted your lings for really no reason, im not sure what you thought was going to happen there, I'm guessing you just got flustered and panicked a bit? In order to defend that kind of timing you just keep your initial lings alive and do a standard 3 hatch hydra build. Consider if you had macro'd a bit more efficiently and hadnt lost your six lings-- he would of pushed out much later, and all he attacked you with anyway was a few zealots and a dragoon. Six lings and a handful of hydras can kill that without even losing a hydra, no problem. If he pushed out at the same time with your lings still alive, you could defend with them in tandem as i said, or back stab. Either way you've put the protoss into a bad spot.
I would actually generally advise *not* moving your overlord that far away against 1 gate tech. Try to hide it a bit, but not actually flee the entire area, as your going to want to sac the overlord later in order to see his tech progression. Theres a lot of variations off one gate tech, and you can afford to lose it. More often than not a protoss going 1gate sair is going to your main/natural first for scouting purposes, just like in a regular FE, as 1gate tech is extremely fragile to early/mid game counters. This guy didnt for whatever reason, probably partly inspired by the fact that you threw away six lings (and he knew exactly where it was due to the scouting probe. But as I say, run the overlord a bit, try to hide it, but keep it within distance so you can sac it shortly).
If he skips stargate altogether I'd just do 2 hatch muta. Counters reaver/goon 1 base + 1 base speed lot, but you probably knew that anyway.
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The decision to go 2 or 3 hatch comes before realizing he has a stargate or not. I don't think going 2 hatch against a 1 base protoss is very smart anyway unless the plan is to do a 2 hatch hydra all-in. Mutalisks come after the tech of the protoss forcing you to invest in either sunkens or hydras anyway screwing with any mutalisk timing you intended on doing.
I'm currently revising my optimal response to 1 base play but what has worked for me in the past is:
+ Show Spoiler +If 2 gate, sunken lings and speed as necessary. Delay third hatch.
If no 2 gate, place third hatch at natural (since if he goes for corsair DTs, reaver drop, you generally don't want to have another vulnerable location to defend.) However, if you decide to take a third anyway, take a close-by third.
Next, I get hydra den with first 50 gas since it's necessary against the first corsair and can make the protoss scared you're going to all-in him. You can also just skip hydras and get an evolution chamber and spore instead. Of course if he decides to go for a DT drop you can be vulnerable. Go for a quick lair, add ling speed, get spire or lurker carapace when it finishes. Focus on droning, scouting with lings and minimal defenses.
Either make muta ling or hydra lurker. If you see him taking a natural, add a 3rd base.
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On September 10 2016 01:04 B-royal wrote: The decision to go 2 or 3 hatch comes before realizing he has a stargate or not. I don't think going 2 hatch against a 1 base protoss is very smart anyway unless the plan is to do a 2 hatch hydra all-in. Mutalisks come after the tech of the protoss forcing you to invest in either sunkens or hydras anyway screwing with any mutalisk timing you intended to do. Uh...nope. You can do 2 hatch muta if you overlord/drone scout his base fast enough and see the lack of a stargate. 2 hatch muta is literally the hard counter to a lot of one base pushes, including the ones i mentioned. Goon reaver pushes are *only* reliably handled by 2 hatch mutalisk.
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On September 10 2016 01:09 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2016 01:04 B-royal wrote: The decision to go 2 or 3 hatch comes before realizing he has a stargate or not. I don't think going 2 hatch against a 1 base protoss is very smart anyway unless the plan is to do a 2 hatch hydra all-in. Mutalisks come after the tech of the protoss forcing you to invest in either sunkens or hydras anyway screwing with any mutalisk timing you intended to do. Uh...nope. You can do 2 hatch muta if you overlord scout his base fast enough and see the lack of a stargate. 2 hatch muta is literally the hard counter to a lot of one base pushes, including the ones i mentioned. Goon reaver pushes are *only* reliably handled by 2 hatch mutalisk.
Eh yes the decision comes in fact a LOT earlier. Because what matters is when you take your gas. In a two hatch build the purpose is to get the gas around 2:05. The only thing that will happen in the case you're describing is purposely stacking minerals and not getting a 3rd hatch.
At this point, your overlord is just at the center of your opponent's natural. Thus not even possible to know he's playing a 1 base build.
Seeing a lack of stargate can only happen as soon as 2:50, thus around 3 minutes.
Or maybe you are advocating opening up 12 hatch and a blind 2 hatch play in every ZvP game? Good luck.
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On September 10 2016 02:00 B-royal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2016 01:09 Dazed_Spy wrote:On September 10 2016 01:04 B-royal wrote: The decision to go 2 or 3 hatch comes before realizing he has a stargate or not. I don't think going 2 hatch against a 1 base protoss is very smart anyway unless the plan is to do a 2 hatch hydra all-in. Mutalisks come after the tech of the protoss forcing you to invest in either sunkens or hydras anyway screwing with any mutalisk timing you intended to do. Uh...nope. You can do 2 hatch muta if you overlord scout his base fast enough and see the lack of a stargate. 2 hatch muta is literally the hard counter to a lot of one base pushes, including the ones i mentioned. Goon reaver pushes are *only* reliably handled by 2 hatch mutalisk. Eh yes the decision comes in fact a LOT earlier. Because what matters is when you take your gas. In a two hatch build the purpose is to get the gas around 2:05. The only thing that will happen in the case you're describing is purposely stacking minerals and not getting a 3rd hatch. At this point, your overlord is just at the center of your opponent's natural. Thus not even possible to know he's playing a 1 base build. Seeing a lack of stargate can only happen as soon as 2:50, thus around 3 minutes. Or maybe you are advocating opening up 12 hatch and a blind 2 hatch play in every ZvP game? Good luck. This isnt a zvt, your not rushing mutalisks in order to outmicro and destroy your opponent, you realize? In the replay in question AOT scouts the 1 gate tech build about two seconds after he put down his gas, and the stargate comes down maybe a half second following that. You dont need gas at 2:05 in order to counter certain one base pushes. He could of easily put a gas down at 14-15 supply, which is an ordinary enough timing in order to have two hatch mutalisks out and counter a reaver goon push. It isnt fast enough to do damage to a terran though, quite right.
He'd float a bit of minerals that he would then sink into either lings or a sunken to delay the goon reaver push. This is literally standard reaction to one base goon reaver pushes, though this entire discussion is a digression since this never happened.
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On September 10 2016 02:00 B-royal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2016 01:09 Dazed_Spy wrote:On September 10 2016 01:04 B-royal wrote: The decision to go 2 or 3 hatch comes before realizing he has a stargate or not. I don't think going 2 hatch against a 1 base protoss is very smart anyway unless the plan is to do a 2 hatch hydra all-in. Mutalisks come after the tech of the protoss forcing you to invest in either sunkens or hydras anyway screwing with any mutalisk timing you intended to do. Uh...nope. You can do 2 hatch muta if you overlord scout his base fast enough and see the lack of a stargate. 2 hatch muta is literally the hard counter to a lot of one base pushes, including the ones i mentioned. Goon reaver pushes are *only* reliably handled by 2 hatch mutalisk. Eh yes the decision comes in fact a LOT earlier. Because what matters is when you take your gas. In a two hatch build the purpose is to get the gas around 2:05. The only thing that will happen in the case you're describing is purposely stacking minerals and not getting a 3rd hatch. At this point, your overlord is just at the center of your opponent's natural. Thus not even possible to know he's playing a 1 base build. Seeing a lack of stargate can only happen as soon as 2:50, thus around 3 minutes. Or maybe you are advocating opening up 12 hatch and a blind 2 hatch play in every ZvP game? Good luck. i made a crazy record in some ISL ladder stage doing 2 h muta everygame zvp zvt ^^ i was b- close to b at the time.
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On September 10 2016 02:26 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2016 02:00 B-royal wrote:On September 10 2016 01:09 Dazed_Spy wrote:On September 10 2016 01:04 B-royal wrote: The decision to go 2 or 3 hatch comes before realizing he has a stargate or not. I don't think going 2 hatch against a 1 base protoss is very smart anyway unless the plan is to do a 2 hatch hydra all-in. Mutalisks come after the tech of the protoss forcing you to invest in either sunkens or hydras anyway screwing with any mutalisk timing you intended to do. Uh...nope. You can do 2 hatch muta if you overlord scout his base fast enough and see the lack of a stargate. 2 hatch muta is literally the hard counter to a lot of one base pushes, including the ones i mentioned. Goon reaver pushes are *only* reliably handled by 2 hatch mutalisk. Eh yes the decision comes in fact a LOT earlier. Because what matters is when you take your gas. In a two hatch build the purpose is to get the gas around 2:05. The only thing that will happen in the case you're describing is purposely stacking minerals and not getting a 3rd hatch. At this point, your overlord is just at the center of your opponent's natural. Thus not even possible to know he's playing a 1 base build. Seeing a lack of stargate can only happen as soon as 2:50, thus around 3 minutes. Or maybe you are advocating opening up 12 hatch and a blind 2 hatch play in every ZvP game? Good luck. This isnt a zvt, your not rushing mutalisks in order to outmicro and destroy your opponent, you realize? In the replay in question AOT scouts the 1 gate tech build about two seconds after he put down his gas, and the stargate comes down maybe a half second following that. You dont need gas at 2:05 in order to counter certain one base pushes. He could of easily put a gas down at 14-15 supply, which is an ordinary enough timing in order to have two hatch mutalisks out and counter a reaver goon push. It isnt fast enough to do damage to a terran though, quite right. He'd float a bit of minerals that he would then sink into either lings or a sunken to delay the goon reaver push. This is literally standard reaction to one base goon reaver pushes, though this entire discussion is a digression since this never happened.
Fair enough, you're not rushing mutalisks. I didn't know that 2 hatch is standard against goon reaver. I've only played vs goon reaver twice and my 3 hatch ling muta did not fail me.
Do you know a precise build order for a goon reaver push? I can't find this on liquipedia.
Also, how does a 2 hatch mutalisk hold up against a speedlot/archon push?
Finally, maybe you should show me a replay but I still don't understand why in this case you can't just add a 3rd hatchery if you're not taking your gas earlier than normal. You don't need a sunken any time soon and even if you build 10-12 lings you can still afford to get a 3rd hatchery while teching to lair.
On September 10 2016 02:28 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2016 02:00 B-royal wrote:On September 10 2016 01:09 Dazed_Spy wrote:On September 10 2016 01:04 B-royal wrote: The decision to go 2 or 3 hatch comes before realizing he has a stargate or not. I don't think going 2 hatch against a 1 base protoss is very smart anyway unless the plan is to do a 2 hatch hydra all-in. Mutalisks come after the tech of the protoss forcing you to invest in either sunkens or hydras anyway screwing with any mutalisk timing you intended to do. Uh...nope. You can do 2 hatch muta if you overlord scout his base fast enough and see the lack of a stargate. 2 hatch muta is literally the hard counter to a lot of one base pushes, including the ones i mentioned. Goon reaver pushes are *only* reliably handled by 2 hatch mutalisk. Eh yes the decision comes in fact a LOT earlier. Because what matters is when you take your gas. In a two hatch build the purpose is to get the gas around 2:05. The only thing that will happen in the case you're describing is purposely stacking minerals and not getting a 3rd hatch. At this point, your overlord is just at the center of your opponent's natural. Thus not even possible to know he's playing a 1 base build. Seeing a lack of stargate can only happen as soon as 2:50, thus around 3 minutes. Or maybe you are advocating opening up 12 hatch and a blind 2 hatch play in every ZvP game? Good luck. i made a crazy record in some ISL ladder stage doing 2 h muta everygame zvp zvt ^^ i was b- close to b at the time.
Nice eon. Were you opening overpool, 12 pool or 12 hatch?
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ty everyone for replying it just feels very quick for that corsair opening. ill use everyones suggestion and work on the timings.
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