Our beloved 424, who many think may be Jaedong (hereafter referred to as Jaedong), won a very interesting game against Ssak on Ssak's stream. After losing his natural to a strong M&M push Jaedong still managed to chop away Ssak's army and barely survived, while the game was really closer than it seemed after JD's simultaneous Muta counter that ransacked Ssak's main. Aided by the economy of his unusually placed third base, Jaedong then transitioned to a very peculiar mid-game. Seeing Ssak's Vultures and expecting a mech switch JD did not tech to hive and proceeded to chop away at Ssak's army on the map with a mix of Hydras and Lurkers aided by Zerglings. Cheap, easily reproduced and mobile army gave JD an advantage in skirmished which gave him enough map control and economy to slowly build up enough units to break Ssak's main after he used up all his main minerals.
Now we're not here to just hype things up, so a bit of salt here and there. Things to note: 1) Author's lucklaster understanding of the game. That's why I wrote this, mainly to see opinions of veterans, because there's a high possibility that I'm just pumped for nothing. 2) Since it's Ssak's POV Jaedong's BO, decisions or movements cannot be more thoroughly analysed 3) Ssak being outclassed when it came to battle tactics and not going Mech Switch in the end may also put a big poop on any in-depth strategical discussion
So is Jaedong's Salami Build [Terran army chopped like salami slices] is anything to look out for?
I've been thinking that beefier midgame comps could be an answer to mech switches already but then again I don't pretend to have deep knowledge. There were a few Day9 dailies discussing this type of midgame strat in the first few he did.
playing zerg without defilers is like playing without drones... i think that defilers are the strongest units in the game by a country mile (other than mayyyyyyyybe vultures and marines..)
Lol after Ssak killed natural he barely used seige mode in the middle despite being on two factories for the entire game, he was caught off guard from zerg's flanks at every turn
So maybe it's Jaedong, maybe it's not. People have played ZvT like this forever, including myself. If you keep trading properly with terran and he keeps being aggressive it can work. Don't see what the big discussion is over any of that replay. He didnt need deflier because terran was stuck on 3 base 6 rax all game, and failed to switch to mech or anything of the sort. I used to play like this, but if you mess one bad engagement up and dont have time to reinforce yourself, you can lose pretty bad w/ out dark swarm.
i mean yeah you can play vs 3base terran this way but why would you.... defilers literally like quintuple the value of units defensively, there's not really a reason to skimp on drones just because you wanna show off and brute force a terran army down when you can have a much more elegant standard 3base into hive into 5 base.. what is the strategic benefit??? i think playing for defilers is just safer/better imo, partially for the reasons that i stated in the Zv mech transition thread.. the strength of the terran army is being in one place (unless there are a lot of defilers, but still having a bio/mech army [unless it's skt] in one area is stronger than being split up).. however, with nydus and defiler you can pretty easily just hold off traditional terran armies with standard play and low investment, allowing you to drop or counter attack to deny 3rd/4th/5th while taking more bases yourself..
without having defilers, i think you would have to play on a razor's edge to be able to hold a 3rd, let alone take a 4th/5th safely, without having a large lead from the mid game in the first place (which i still think could be better capitalized on by just playing with defilers),
what strategic benefit do you guys see playing like this??? maybe on maps with gasless expansions like andromeda or python?? idk
edit~ ok I watched the replay through.. you're right, that zerg's control is insane.. I don't think he chose to play the way he did because he wanted to though, I think he was forced into it after he lost his natural.. his eco was so low that he couldn't have defended if he had attempted to tech traditionally, so he played this low gas (or rather gas focused on lurkers instead of defilers) style.. Additionally, other than picking off tanks, the zerg's control of terran's scans played an integral part of terran not over powering zerg.. I think if the terran had went 2port vessel instead of continuing to pump out of 2fac he would have won.. terran was crippled because he couldn't scan and he could only scout with a spare vulture or marine, which zerg denied heavily later.. also, terran couldn't really push without vision given how heavy the lurkers were (you can see zerg taking advantage of this when he starts sneaking lurkers between the main terran army in the middle and the terran rally point, forcing terran to scan after losing a few units (and making him constantly keep an eye on that area..) you can see the start of zerg's strategy when he is in terran's main with his mutas and kills the comsat station instead of scvs, he knows vision denial will keep him alive longer than economic harass.
So the consensus seems to be that rather than a pre-planned strategy it was more of a reaction to the circumstances of that particular match? Yeah, I also thought it was possible, and definietly like you guys wrote against this M&M + Tank comp (since he did not in fact go mech switch) Defilers would have been devastating, had the zerg had the economy to tech to them and produce them.
yeah i would say so... i think z was on death's door and capitalized on a few out of position terran armies... then he lost like 8 drones to a single vulture, then had crazy good control.. then terran lost vessel and tank after vessel and tank for very little gas, and zerg was able to slowly expand and out muscle terran.. not to say that ssak played badly, but he lost a lot of units in small pieces all over the place towards the end of the game, which prevented him from being able to hold the zerg off.. if he had been playing at full form after the natural kill he should never lose there, especially with the 8 drone kill vulture
Jiko/424 has been resigning in the midgame in the vast majority of his ZvT games after the mutaling engage or after losing his 3rd hat to the initial mnm squads, so his lategame has been seen rarely. However, he has used a very very delayed hive style several times (and not the only player to have done so recently).
Zerg has 2 methods to get to the lategame. The first is to prioritise defiler dark swarm. The second is to get +1 armour and 12 lurkers, and perform a surround to kill the terran army. This second method is less common (and that’s because it is less reliable). Normally after doing the +1 armour 12 lurker surround style, zerg still fairly rapidly gets hive and dark swarm in order to hold off the 2nd and 3rd wave of terran etc.
OP, you are correct to have identified that something new is being experimented with. This new style completely delays hive and gets speed hydras instead. It is a build that wants to encounter a mech switch. A terran that performs a mech switch blindly will have a small amount of mnm that he doesn’t want to lose. He wants to keep them infront of zergs base, threatening a bust. They provide high dps, anti air, map control etc. They also threaten the zerg with a developing threat; that Terran might be going up to for example 7 rax 2 star with 2 ebays. Zerg needs defiler in order to hold that developing threat. Zerg cannot easily/reliably scout which route the Terran goes (either rax or mech switch) and cannot easily/reliably react to that choice either. This is because Terran can fluidly mix between the 2 in many ways, and can switch very quickly if desired too.
Next we imagine a theoretical scenario where zerg somehow knows that Terran will definitely mech switch. It would mean zerg knows that the mnm threat is significantly reduced. This means dark swarm is not needed; zerg can instead rely on the +1 armour 12 lurker style to overcome the (classicly) 3 tank 1 vessel terran army. So after that, zerg knows the next threat he is facing is either: -a remade mnm army (but from only 3,4 or 5 rax and without continued ebay upgrades and without a large number of vessels or dropships) -a full and rapid mech switch -a mix between the two
If Terran decides to remake his mnm army, he is doing it to try to maintain map control, and is very unlikely to attempt to bust with it. But still the threat to zerg is quite high, the marines can even be 2-1 and with some tank support and vessel. Zerg will have to have enough lurkers and lings (hydras to but we are coming to that) to engage this army head on if it pokes in too far. It can be kind of risky.
If instead Terran decided to do a full and rapid mech switch, this is the perfect scenario for a zerg doing this new style; the ignored hive and the prioritised speed hydras and overlords. The hydras and overlords ‘hardcounter’ (apologies for using the term) the vultures and mines. There is no mnm to worry about so hydras are very safe. Only a small number of tanks are available at this time and the ling lurker hydra combo can cost effectively clear out a small mech army if Terran does/did try to poke quite far with tank (and is relatively high tank count for this stage).
If it’s a mix between the two, ling lurker hydra combo again can deal with it. If it’s a small drop, muta ling and lurker should be able to hold either the 3rd or main. Note it seems the zergs have been getting a few extra muta when using this style so far. But even without muta, you can deal with drops in the usual way (its only going to be a small drop in this theoretical scenario remember as its 1 star only). However this brings up a weakness. Without hive there is a lack of nydus. This means it is more risky for zerg to manage his army unit count at each location safely. The games Ive seen where the style has been used have all been from Terran pov but if zerg chooses to get a 2nd hatch at his 3rd base before taking a 4th base I would think it’s a legitimate decision. It allows zerg to make a few extra lings/lurkers at the 3rd base, as he cant use nydus. Im sure a terran timing attack could quickly be worked out to exploit this weakness though.
OK so we have covered that the build is very good vs a quick mech switch and that’s the ideal thing zerg wants to be facing. What does zerg lose in the process? He loses the threat of/use of defilers, ultras, adrenalings, +3 zerg upgrades, guardians, nydus. Zerg gains mass and speed upgrades. Losing the threat of/use of defilers is a big problem obviously. Losing the threat of ultras isnt as much of a problem (talking about at the immediate post hive timing). Losing the use of adrenalings is a shame, though if using a defensive hive style, then lings are mostly just to clear out mines at this stage and aren’t really dealing damage as much. So in a way the adrenal gland upgrade is not critically useful at this moment. Yes it helps with destroying mines, but just running through a minefield is effective anyway. When using the defensive hive style, its all about the lurkers under the dark swarm. The adrenaline only becomes critical when/if doing an ultraling phase. Ofcourse adrenal helps with defending terran drops, and when zerg does his own drops, and it helps just in general when fighting but it can be argued that vultures and mines shutdown lings quite hard so adrenal is less critical at this stage (immediately after hive finishes). Losing the option of +3 upgrades is not a problem at all because you are only just starting upgrades anyway, and can go to +2 without hive. Ofcourse will need hive eventually to get these though. We assume zerg will aim to time getting hive to coincide with +2 finishing for the hydras for this new style though its not clear yet. See below for more on the evos. Losing the threat of guardians is average. I don’t rate them at any stage of ZvT, they are quite rare (as an immediate post hive use with muta from the midgame). Mech switch has only 1 starport so wraith production is lessened, so guardians are a tiny bit more useful potentially. But I don’t recommend guardians. However, losing the threat of guardians is still a downside worth noting. The threat of them is always quite useful, even if getting them isnt. Losing the nydus is important, discussed it earlier. It’s a pretty big problem for the style.
Earlier we talked about how zerg most commonly uses a quick defiler hive style, and his second most common option (still quite a lot less common) is to get a delayed hive with +1 armour and 12 lurkers. Note that for this new style, the no hive hydra switch, I cant confirm if zerg is getting +1 armour for that classic surround or not. They might have in some/all/none of the games. They might have got 3 evos all at once a moment or so later (very possible).
And now onto the critical question. Can zerg hold with no hive hydra switch vs 7 rax 2 star style lategame from Terran? In my opinion, Zerg cant know for sure if/when/how Terran is mech switching easily/reliably or more importantly, cant reactively alter build order in time to make significant build order/style changes. Muta or scourge are the most viable scouting options to see rax count, fac count, vessel count, starport count, unit composition, vulture upgrades. All of these things are big clues but terran can be very fluid in his transition method if he wants to be. Essentially, zerg is able to see terran going to a standard 3 tank 1 vessel kind of composition and has to decide how to deal with that, and whether to get hive or not very early on. Zerg is then committed to the chosen strat. And unfortunately Id argue that 3rd base into hydra/lurk/ling has proven to be not viable vs mnm heavy styles historically. (But Card, you said it’s a new style!) Yes yes, nothing in bw is new, and hydra/lurk/ling has ofcourse been used extensively before. But that was a long time ago. The fact is, hive is almost always prioritised in the modern game. And yet we have witnessed several games from several players in a short period of time where hydralurk is being played with again. Its notable. You can argue they are just practice games and just trying things out or whatever. But yes, exactly, that’s what is interesting. Will it prove to be viable or not, we don’t know yet. As I said, unfortunately I don’t think it will for 2 reasons: -I think mnm style can go head to head with hydralurk and come out on top a bit too reliably -Terran can reactively choose to go mnm style quite easily by scanning the lair and by waiting for a dark swarm to actually get cast if he wants as well.
But this is exactly the kind of thing that is exciting for bw strategy, finding out if a build can prove itself or not in the long run. If zerg were to start doing this more (and be successful with it), it would atleast help discourage lesser terrans from blindly mech switching. Anything that causes problems and tensions improves the game overall. Will the build be short lived or not remains to be seen. Jiko/424 has not been seen in many lategame ZvTs and his decision making and build orders can be explained in many ways other than strategical choices. The future will be interesting.
The example game in the OP is bad because it is unusual midgame build orders and its way too volatile, the muta kill half the scv and the zerg loses his nat and another base later. Zerg opens lurkers not muta, Terran responds with 2 fac tank, zerg then gets muta and goes for the base trade. So it’s a very unusual game. But like Ive said, Jiko used the relevant part of the build (the no hive hydra lategame) vs other terrans. See later post (Jiko vs Flash link).
Th1rdEye says “People have played ZvT like this forever” Yes but in the modern game its very uncommon. This particular game is very bad example to prove anything though as its unorthodox midgame builds, and very volatile lower econ lategame.
Th1rdEye says “He didnt need deflier because terran was stuck on 3 base 6 rax all game, and failed to switch to mech or anything of the sort.” This line is really incorrect. 6 rax is plenty enough danger to want defiler. 3 base terran is plenty enough danger to want defiler. Terran didn’t switch to mech, but mech doesn’t warrant defiler more than mnm, its demands it less. And ssak didnt fail to switch to mech, he didnt try to switch to mech, and he didnt want to either. His attempted army composition was exactly right to fight hydra/lurk/ling. Sometimes he lost his units too much, and made firebats to compensate a bit. So he failed to maintain his desired unit composition perfectly, and he failed to mass up his army enough.
Th1rdEye says “if you mess one bad engagement up and dont have time to reinforce yourself, you can lose pretty bad w/ out dark swarm.” I agree with this. I think hydra/lurk/ling in the general sense is not reliable enough compared to lurker under dark swarm prioritised.
Endymion says “…when you can have a much more elegant standard 3base into hive into 5 base.. what is the strategic benefit?” The benefit is the hydras can clear the minefields and overall zerg can claim map control and even start attacking terrans fresh expansions. Also I don’t think they mind how elegant a strat is, what matters is results! Endymion says “i think playing for defilers is just safer/better” So do I. Looking forward to see how things develop. Endymion says “with nydus and defiler you can pretty easily just hold off traditional terran armies with standard play” I wouldn’t say it was pretty easy. Having defiler in time, paying attention to have replacements if they get irradiated, casting darkswarm quickly enough before lurkers get sniped, defending drops etc. But even if you can do all that, the problem with ZvT lategame at the moment is that Zerg can secure 4/5/6 base safely depending on how you see it/do it, but its very passive and terran goes to 5 bases himself and wins with large tank count from 9 facs later on. So yes zerg holds but still loses in the long run. With this early hydra switch, zerg is looking to get in terrans face much faster, exploiting the window before tank production has begun, when vults and mines are potentially killable. Zerg is sometimes able to pressure the fresh expos even as they come online. But just getting some map control makes things much harder for terran. Endymion says “without having defilers, i think you would have to play on a razor's edge to be able to hold a 3rd” Well Id say zvt is on a ridiculous knife edge in standard defiler style at many points, particularly killing the mnm squad using just mutaling, getting lurkers to morph on the ramp to the 3rd at the correct time, holding the 3rd base vs pre defiler timings, defending drops, holding the 3rd base after defiler is out, holding against heavy tank pressure. Using a +1 armour 12 lurker style is very knife edge too though I agree. And I agree I think defiler option is better, (its more common for a reason, it is more reliably successful). Endymion says “maybe on maps with gasless expansions like andromeda or python?” Yes on Andromeda it’s a slightly more viable choice because the min only is inbase. Python? You still take a gas 3rd base there (empty main). The min only is not a viable expo at that timing. Overall though, you still want to take a 3rd base that is protected by 1 ramp. Having it be a gas expo is still desirable, for lurkers, potentially for mutas after the hydras have built up numbers, and just anyway. Its not a map specific thing, it’s a counter mech switch thing / its just a lategame style for any map. Endymion is correct that 424 targeted the comsat down (sort of), but the muta had basically killed all the scv first and were microed to kill marines there. The muta were then essentially left idle after a quick click to focus the comsat, with apm going to defending the terran attack at zerg nat now. Note he actually micros the muta to attack some more marines and doesn’t finish off the comsat for quite a long time, significantly losing his nat during this and probably ssak got a crucial extra scan off using it. And yes the game was low econ and volatile. If I had only seen this game in isolation I would have assumed the hydralurk style was due to those factors or something else. But I have seen him do this style in atleast a couple of smooth games so we know its not that (only). I think you are reading a bit too much into the lurkers wasting scans, and if vessels would have won the game rather than tanks. Zerg is making hydra/lurk/ling. You make a composition, you use it as effectively as you can. You see what the enemy has, you tailor your next wave of units slightly. What Im saying is, the way you are talking sounds like you are in danger of the hardcounter mindset. This hardcounters that etc. Now I know you aren’t a noob, but maybe people reading the comment will think it like that. To add to that, you might notice ssak is doing something quite fun in some of his other games. He is getting extra factories without even getting science facility. Now this is a blind choice. And the way he plays it is he is happy to get tank heavy/fac heavy compositions vs anything be it lurker or hydra (or guardian or whatever). And sorry your implications just feel a bit off. If terran has a pure mnm ground army with highish vessel count that’s a good army. If terran has a mnm with tanks and a couple of vessels, that is also a good army. Its not like one is better vs lurkers than the other. And anyway its not vs lurkers, its vs hydralurkling, and the best style vs that is with quite a heavy tank count supporting mnm with a few vessels mixed in. And ssak does have vessels mixed in. His composition is essentially good throughout. He keeps losing fights, he loses the game overall, its one game. Endymion says “I think if the terran had went 2port vessel instead of continuing to pump out of 2fac he would have won” No
McRatyn says “So the consensus seems to be that rather than a pre-planned strategy it was more of a reaction to the circumstances of that particular match?” If that is the consensus, the consensus is wrong. If I had only seen this game in isolation I would have assumed the hydralurk style was due to those factors or something else. But I have seen him do this style in atleast a couple of smooth games so we know its not that (only). McRatyn says “…and definietly like you guys wrote against this M&M + Tank comp (since he did not in fact go mech switch” No, hydralurk is happy to go up against a quick mech switch. At the end of the day, hydras kill mines and vultures. It’s a gross oversimplification but what the hell. A fun thing to note is that by going hydralurk, zerg encourages terran to continue with mnm tank vessel (and not make a mech switch). This gives the zerg player initiative at the least, as he is encouraging terran to do a specific style as a response to his (zergs) own choices. I do support zerg going for a later hydra switch once terran mech switch has been confirmed, its a good viable method (but not the only one). For me though, hydras dont have quite enough dps to go up against mnm reliably consistently, but Im more than happy to see zergs try. And just to reiterate, yes hydra/lurk/ling is nothing new technically, and was used a lot, has been fully explored and developed etc. We havent seen it much in the last few years so its cool to see it. Hoping to see it more often! But anyway, this post is full of wild tangents; hope its somewhat interesting.
i don't think he was killing comsat from a lack of apm, i think he was trying to 1 wipe out marine reinforcement and 2 kill the comsat, not struggling to take advantage of his attack by deciding to not kill scvs. vision denial also isn't usually a "hard counter" in the SC2 vein of the expression, but it's definitely a deciding factor when a terran decides to push from the middle of his map into your main imo. i take this mindset from going heavy lurker vs a 2 valk before vessel opening from terran (i know there's one terran who always does it, unfortunately i don't know his name because i only watch replays and don't know pro players well.. flash does it sometimes as well). anyways the 2valk build is so low on scans that usually they have 4 going on 6 scans when pushing from their base, so they have to bust a scan on your 3rd, your main, your natural, and then your 3rd's ramp to actually push the 2 lurkers there.. it's pretty straightforward to hold, but counter intuitive. with the valks you can't hold with using only the mutas like a normal game would traditionally have; instead you need to put a lurker or two around the map to bait scans and terran will eventually run out of steam.. either that, or you can just bust his front from your main with like 8 lurker 24 lings and totally kill him since he won't have vision.
the game in question has a lot more vision in question with vessels in play, as well as a 3rd cc for scans, but given zerg's reliance on lurkers and flanks i think he was using it to his advantage. The lurkers cutting off the resupply lines was the epitome of this divide and conquer strategy of his, as he was trying to make it as uncomfortable and unprofitable as possibly for terran to push past the middle of the map, giving zerg more time to position for a defense when the push came (extra time which he would have direly needed given the lack of defilers and nydus).
moving away from the game in the OP, i'm not sure about the security this build has for holding a 3rd. personally, i would feel pretty uncomfortable moving away from mutas in the midgame for a more aggressive game just given the strength of midgame terran armies, but i might just not have the right mindset for this playstyle yet in zvt. What it sounds like you're describing, cardinalallin, is a standard 5 hatch muta opening ala ZvP, albeit the 3rd would be in the 2nd main instead of at the 2nd natural since you wouldn't have the same defensive style vs zealots as you would vs a terran army.. the build orders sound very similar sans the rush to spire for sairs, so i'm not sure if the extra eco goes into more map pressure early or a heavier eco focus. on second though the extra eco probably goes into starting the hydra upgrades earlier so that you can time the lurker upgrade for as soon as your lair finishes or else you would die?? maybe earlier +1 attack too
edit~ So after talking so much about this style of zvt I decided to try it vs my terran practice partner. Traditionally, he tends to play exactly like flash with regard to his style: marine/medic early into tank vessel off of 3 base into a 5 base defensive mech style. Typically I play by the book 3hatch muta with standard 3rd base timing into 4/5 standard defiler/ling/ultra play.
my strength as a play definitely comes from mid game muta micro and general engagements, as well as strong macro. I typically fail late game vs him because i have a lot of trouble busting the 4th/5th base with combined arms of queens, drops, defilers, ultras, etc etc, it's just a lot to manage and typically i lose those fights.
Anyways, so in our game he went for that 2valk build that i was talking about and busted my natural with it, killing a ton of drones but not killing the hatch.. I was left in a better position than the zerg in the OP for sure, so I added a 5th hatch at my 3rd and started getting more hydra ups to keep applying pressure (while delaying hive in favor of more hatches/hydras/ovie speed). I did this with the intent of trying to deny his 3rd.
As he was taking his third he started transitioning to mech (producing out of 3rax 1port 3fac). With the hydras I was able to clear out some thin mine fields, allowing me to apply very heavy pressure on his third, limiting aggression and allowing me to take my 4th and 5th pretty safely. However, he was expanding on FS from a start of 7' to 6' as his 3rd (i was 11' with my 3rd at 1'), which gave me 2 ramps instead of just the traditional 1 ramp to attack his expansion. If i had only 1 it would have been a lot less effective imo. Anyways eventually he secured his 3rd and started trying to push more heavily into 5' to take his 4th and 5th. with a heavy hydra/lurker/ling army it made his push extremely slow and I was able to delay it for a good 2/3 minutes while just macroing up hardcore. the game progressed into late game which was played with standard units, but I just thought it was an interesting midgame. the hydras make busting 3rds easier for sure, and they make clearing minefields easier. Also, it makes making lurkers much easier since you don't have to plan ahead nearly as much, which i found pretty helpful
Something really important I forgot to talk about is the location of the zerg 3rd base. As mentioned before, there is the lack of nydus. The second thing is that terran has to scout the empty mains to try and find the location of the zerg 3rd base. If terran cant find the zerg 3rd at an empty main, he normally has wasted an amount of time (because currently it is unusual not to take a 3rd there). The location of the 3rd base for zerg is being played with. However, if Terran gets used to zerg taking a close 3rd base regularly then I don’t think it is as viable (if there are 2 entrances into the 3rd or if its a lowground base). Again though Im happy for zergs to try! And every style that zergs use (even just occasionally) adds to the amount of variables terran has to consider which weakens him in the bigger picture so its all good. Here is a modern game, S2 vs Shinee on FS August 2016:
In this game, zerg takes the close 3rd base (goes lurker not muta on lair) and delays hive for lurker mass. Going for lurker mass is much more common when you opened with lurkers instead of mutas anyway so we have to be aware of that. He then gets queens quickly (which is uncommon), and gets hive too (which is not the new style we are talking about in this thread). He gets speed hydras on 3 base with dark swarm with a few queens supporting. So its not exactly what we are talking about but it has elements, specifically the very early speed hydras, and to an extent the non reliance on defiler. The location of the 3rd base is close 3rd here. Unfortunately the game is cross spawn, which favours the choice of taking a close 3rd the most. Would he have taken a close 3rd if different spawn positions anyway? We need more example games to prove. But as you can see zerg is able to attack the terran 3rd base and infest it. Zerg tries to take an empty main as his 4th but is denied. He takes a side base as his 4th instead later.
@Endymion, jiko killed the scvs and the marines and the comsat was 3rd target choice. My point was he didn’t go in with muta and specifically snipe the comsat then run away. The apm comment was oversimplification on my part.
Endymion says “anyways the 2valk build is so low on scans” A valk style midgame isnt particularly low on scans. I don’t agree that the zerg strategy should revolve around forcing terran to burn scans, its not a reliable safe method. Endymion says “with the valks you can't hold with using only the mutas like a normal game would traditionally have; instead you need to put a lurker or two around the map to bait scans and terran will eventually run out of steam.. either that, or you can just bust his front from your main with like 8 lurker 24 lings and totally kill him since he won't have vision.” I agree you cant hold without doing something a little different. The answer isnt to put a lurker or two around the map to bait scans though. It can be fatal to do that. Terran often wont run out of scans fighting this, and often wont get held off. A good response is to use scourge to snipe the valks and continue using mutaling. Another option is to get lurkers into position on the ramp to the 3rd base as normal ‘if you can’ (big caveat I know). Equally, busting the terran nat using lurker ling muta when the terran used a valk opening is risky. If terran has prepared properly he might have 2 bunkers and a turret and hold quite easily. Even if terran has to lift his nat cc, its not necessarily enough damage. Very risky strategy to rely on. But no I agree the valk build is a massive pain in the ass for zerg, it’s a tangent though for this thread.
Endymion says “…but given zerg's reliance on lurkers and flanks i think he was using it to his advantage.” Yes I agree zerg was pushing forward with his units and being aggressive. Awesome to watch.
Yeah I was floating the idea that you could get the 5th hat (or 6th) at the 3rd base (but I was talking about when your 3rd base is an empty main, not the close 3rd base, and so I might be wrong because you might only do this style with a close 3rd base). If you have a close 3rd base, you don’t need to put a 2nd hat there. It could work just fine if you did though. Going to 5 hats (5th hat in main) would probably be the standard (just like how it already is), especially if a close 3rd base. Going to 6 hats on 3 base would be totally fine choice (6th hat at 3rd base) but probably wouldn’t be standard. Id expect standard would be to stay on 5 hats while on 3 base, and to take a 4th base using the 6th hat. Just to be clear, you open with standard 3 hat mutaling. You take a 3rd base at the standard time and you get lurkers all in the standard way as if you were going to get hive and defilers. Generally my favourite recommendation is to start the 4th hat at a 3rd base, then make the den immediately after (for lurkers to hold the 3rd base ofcourse). Next would be the moment you get queens nest then hive in a normal game. But in this build order we skip that and get evo. Then you get +1 armour and a squad of lurkers to hold off the ‘3 tank 1 vessel’ attack. You aren’t getting queens nest or hive etc, so next you start 5th hat in main base, hydra speed and range, and overlord speed, and then get your 2nd and 3rd evo. Once you have done that you can sit on this unit composition for a while while getting +2 +2 for hydras and you want to time getting hive to start +3 upgrades. An option is to do the hydra transition, and support it with a handful of queens with spawn broodling. So obviously you would have a queens nest for that but you don’t get the hive yet. (also you can just get 1 queen and not get spawn broodling, and use the queen to cast parasite a few times, and use it to infest the 3rd cc if the opportunity arises). Another option is to get 2 evos initially rather than just 1 (and get armour and hydra attack). A more extreme method could be to skip evo initially but still get the squad of lurkers as before. Then begin the speed hydra transition and simultaneously get 3 evos all at once. I don’t really recommend that though. Finally, the choice of when to actually get hive can be taken earlier, so you can get defilers, and nydus to your 4th base. This would be like in the S2 vs Shinee game example above.
Endymion, in your game vs your practice partner, you took an empty main as your 3rd, and so the decision to make your 5th hat at the 3rd base is cool. You mention the terran did not take his close 3rd base, and I agree with you that this made your hydra attack on his 3rd base much stronger. If terran does take his close 3rd base, and you arent able to get up the ramp and attack it fully, thats absolutely fine. You can just hang back and continue with still a good (potentially) advantage. Your closing sentence about how having hydras makes for easier management as you can just morph a few to lurkers easily is a true benefit that could easily be overlooked, albeit a small one.
ignore my misspelling of rally lol... but here's a visual representation of what i was talking about, where 123456789 are hatch locations, N1 and N2 are nydus, and stars are mine fields. with hydra/lurker/ling/speed ovie i think this kind of a push is optimal, although once hive tech it would need to be augmented with drops/ from 1 to terran main and 4 to terran 4/5. however, with hydras you can safely clear the left mine fields since it's unlikely that there will be anything more than vultures over there, exposing 9' to expanding (and more importantly imo securing a secure drop route into terran's main) + Show Spoiler +
Endymion, in your picture you are taking a 3rd base at an empty main (like you did in the real game vs your practice partner). This may not be the best choice when planning to use a hydralurk delayed hive style, as has been discussed. In the pic, you are getting your next hat (the 5th hat) also at the empty main. This is good as you won’t be able to have a nydus and the base is far away, so we want to boost the 3rd base production capability a bit. There are 2 ways of doing that; either by making the 5th hat there, or by making the 5th hat in the main (like normal) and instead getting the 6th hat as a macro hatch at the 3rd base. That’s a viable decision (for this hydra heavy style with far 3rd base). OK so we’ve established you are either on 5 or 6 hats and are on 3 base (the 3rd base being the empty main). The next hat you get will be a 4th base and it will be the empty nat. Then go up to 8 hats on 4 base (3 in the main, and 3 in the new main). If you take a 5th base before being on 8 hats, that is a slightly older style now, and is particularly suited more to ultralisk styles rather than hydra heavy styles. However, it is totally viable to go only to 7 hats on 4 base and then take your 5th base using your 8th hat, with this hydra heavy and aggressive style. The decision of which hat to not make would depend on spawns. If close spawns, you would be one less hat in the new main. If cross spawns, you might consider instead being 1 less hat in the main. Another option (one I expect you would like) would be to have only 6 hats on 4 base, and use the 7th hat to take the 5th base. The 5th base would be at 12 o clock in your picture. I don’t recommend taking the 5th base with the 7th hat though. I think it’s a bit too early. But this whole style is ‘new’, meaning we need further testing.
Your pic has nydus included. This is a bit misleading because you wont have nydus for quite a while if doing a true delayed hive style. But if you do it like S2 vs Shinee then you can have nydus fairly soon. The first nydus will be when you are on 4 base, so you can just make it from the nat to the new nat. You don’t need a nydus from the nat to the 12 o clock, but if you want to anyway that’s fine. In the pic, you have units being rallied outside the nat. And you have an arrow showing they will travel through the 12 o clock base in order to link up with units on the right hand side of the map. That’s fine, and obviously it is an available path, but Id rather you just push out of your nat, cross the bridge and kill the minefield there and then hold that position. From that area, you can then just walk units directly through the middle of the map straight to your new nat. Basically what Im saying is, if you have to send your units through the 12 o clock, that would be an admission that you are a bit behind and cannot contest map control to the extent you would wish to. If you are wanting to link up the units ‘secretly’ in an effort to ‘surprise’ terran with a large attack force all on one side of the map, you can indeed send them through the 12 o clock if you want, but may as well just use the nydus.
The minefields. In your pic, terran is taking 6 o clock as his 3rd (its an option). The minefields you have drawn are very far back, very defensive, which would sometimes indicate that Terran has not successfully managed to pin zerg into 4 base. In the ideal situation for terran, they can be much further forward. But if they are where you have drawn them, its ok for Terran still and he is in the game. You have also drawn a minefield on the path from the 6 o clock to the empty nat. Terran shouldn’t be making a minefield there. If he is, things have gone badly. Also, in the pic, you show terran ‘1st’ push is going from the nat down and round towards the 6 o clock. This is too defensive on terrans part. He should atleast be moving towards the centre, only a few units are needed to clear out the 6 o clock (but I expect you meant that already, Im just being thorough incase). And his ‘2nd’ push as you describe is indicated as going through the 6 o clock base and along the thin path to the empty nat (maybe you mean this is what terran had to do in the game you played with your practice partner). If terran is having to move like this then he is really hurting for map control and is losing.
The last thing, the zerg attack on the 3rd base. You have drawn red arrows attacking the terran 3rd through both ramps. That’s all fine and good. Technically you shouldn’t be able to attack the terran 3rd effectively. If the game is even, he should be able to hold it and keep you quite far back away from it. If the opportunity to attack the terran 3rd is there though, great! Consider trying attacking primarily on the left most arrow to start with, so you are focusing on taking out the terran army. If things peter out a bit, you can send lings on the right most arrow to mainly just harass the scvs. But really for terran, he shouldn’t be letting you even cross the bridge at 4 o clock. If its just a few lings, that’s ok. If it’s a significant hydra heavy army, and he realises he cant hold it at the centre of the map, he will want to be forcing it to have to cross the bridge at 4 o clock rather than come through the mid of the map and have access to the left ramp into 6 o clock. And so the hydra army will have to approach the terran 3rd base through the right ramp. Terran should be able to hold it off with some tanks and a bunker or depot wall. After holding, he will want to plant mines to re establish some map control at the location you have indicated in the pic, namely outside the bridge at 4 o clock. But not at the other spot you drew on the pic (on the path from the 6 o clock to the empty nat). That location is too far back, too hard to reinforce etc. (Might plant a couple there though)
temporally, i think it's a bit confusing regarding the nydus and different pushes since they all happen at different times, but i think the points that you have are valid, spefically with this hydra style.. typically in a normal ultra defiler game I wouldn't even invest any additional hatches at the 1' just becuase the lion's share of stuff is at my main, so i would rather just take additional bases or have them be macro hatches directly in my main for a steadier stream of defense. i have heard the idea of spacing out macro hatches before, but personally with 2 or 3 sets of nydus canals i think it becomes pretty moot lategame (with traditional play).
after reading your comments, i see that the mines are spread pretty sporatically, and that I should be playing more past the bridges rather than just sitting on creep near nydus canals. i just generally have difficulties keeping those areas free of vultures, although I have seen effort use lurkers spread across the areas to reduce mine planting/vulture presense.. I will reconsider my late midgame plan and try to be more aggressive with my army placemetn following my transition to hive during standard play, although I can't speak to how effective it will be compared to the hydras' ability to clear mine fields
The modern trend is to get 3 hatches in the main, and 3 hats at the new main even when doing ultralisk builds, but if you don’t wanna do that, its your choice ofcourse. It makes defending drops easier, as units are already spawning in the right place, and it means you don’t have all eggs in one basket as it were. In the most extreme scenario; if the game becomes very volatile and becomes a base race where you end up losing your main, but so does terran, atleast you haven’t lost all your production. Like everything in starcraft though, its complex. You have to think about the weakness of relying on nydus too. They can get sniped in the blink of an eye by dropped mnm or tanks knocking at the front door. Over time, the new bases become more important as they have minerals still to gather. Also, you can easily have these hats all on 1 location hotkey or normal hotkey. Yeah I recommend it, all the top zergs are doing it so try it, you might like it Endymion says “(maybe) I should be playing more past the bridges rather than just sitting on creep near nydus canals” Careful though, its easy to be too aggressive here. Its important not to push out too early if you don’t have the capability to do so. What Im saying is, sometimes terran will be pinning you in to 4 base quite effectively, so you have to stay back behind the bridges and that’s fine. Its much better to do that than to waste units. The moment you choose to move out and contest map control with hydras is a critical moment. It depends on how the game has gone so far, what the terran is doing, and what you plan to do next (ie 8 hat on 4 base or quicker 5th base etc). Some people when they get to lategame think that they have to do more of everything all at once. More expansions, more tech, more mass, more attacks. But no, you are still doing things in an order. So you cant necessarily just say “I should be playing more past the bridges rather than just sitting on creep near nydus canals” as this is a move, and that move is tied to a timing. Ofcourse the best builds have fluidity, have redundancy and backup options when things don’t go perfectly, and have the capability to exploit opportunities. Er im getting carried away again. Hey, let us know if you have any success vs your practice partner with defilerless ZvT!
for sure, i always have my hatches on 567890 until i get more than 6 hatches, then i start replacing macro hatches with outlying hatches and relying more heavily on vision hotkeys to supplement macro (typically i have f2 on my macro hatches in my main, f4 on my main rally point, and f3 on the third's macro point (on 투혼 typically at the entrance to the 3rd's natural or on the ramp where lurkers sit.
I had a really crazy game today against a terran this morning although it wasn't specifically with this build. it ended up with defiler hydra guardian queen vs battlecruiser MM tank goliath vessel, where i busted one of his outlying main/naturals (5th/4th on that diagram) with a proxy hatch on the highground with a nydus, created during an extended fight over the dropzone lol... it was crazy! zvt is my favorite mu, although i'm admittedly horrible against some openers which makes it annoying.. i'm very strong against standard marine openings, but i suck horribly (like, 20% win rate..) vs mech openings..
usually the 1 or 2 vulture opening into FE into goliaths vs standard muta play, i find it difficult to hold the inevitable tank/goliath push.. typically I try to get +1 air carapace and hydra ups, but i always seem to be behind in eco.. I remember hearing a few day9 audiobytes about expanding heavily being strong against this style of play, but I always seem to just lose to a direct push against my main.. do you have any advice for that kind of opener??? I never see any pro terrans use it so i feel like i must be missing something hardcore, otherwise they would at least use it sometimes.. i know this is really off topic but oh well xD
This was a very interesting game, so first of all, thanks for sharing this. The zerg micro was incredibly good.
However, I don't think we can see it as a new counter of the usual mech transition/current TvZ meta because the game was actually very unsual: - Zerg's eco entirely relied on his weird 3rd placement not being scouted in time, this is certainly not gonna work every time, pretty much like all games with a ninja expo - Ssak's mech switch was much earlier than the usual mech switch, so I wouldn't compare it to the current meta. - Ssak definitely made a mistake by not building any turret in his main due to the surprise effect of the muta switch. I know that building turrets may hurt the economy and mean slightly less marines in the mid game, but he lost so many marines and SCVs, it cost him much more than a few turrets. An extra scan at the nat seeing the incoming mutas and the game would have gone in Ssak's favor. - Ssak was over confident which caused him to be way too aggressive, he kept using small groups of units, and we all know that mech balls are exponentially stronger as their size grows. A large enough mech ball is just invicible without defilers.
Though all of the above is what contributed to making the game very enjoyable to watch.