|
Hello,
I played a game of ZvZ and got the first scout on my opponent. We were both going for a 12 hatch. This prompted me to try out something new. I went 3 hatch before pool and it worked out pretty well.
I next did some testing in single player and confirmed the optimal build order and whether it is "safe".
Is this a good thing to do, should I always do this? Since I've noticed with 3 hatch while still going lair, you'll have some idle larva if you build only zerglings (lack of minerals).
If I do this, should I still just go lair into zergling speed? Or what do you guys suggest?
Here are the timings from my tests: 3 hatch before pool in reaction to 12 hatch of opponent (zvz, first scout on overlord): 12 hatch => 1.40-1.43 13 hatch => 2.15 (13 hatch is better than 11 hatch, pool timings stay the same) pool => 2.30 (takes 50 seconds + 20 seconds for lings to complete) first lings => 3.41-.3.44 Lair => 3.30 speed => 3.48 3rd overlord done by 4.01 Opponent's lings will arrive at 3.40 at the earliest.
Here's the replay in case you want to check it out. http://bwreplays.com/705af (I did a 12 hatch, 11 hatch which as you can see is less optimal than 12 hatch 13 hatch since it gives a way worse economy and pool timings are actually the same!).
|
3 hath opening in ZvZ doesn't make much sense as you delay your gas timing significantly and will have to invest in spores and still be in huge risk. ZvZ is about gas, hence few more drones won't make a difference. On top of that 2 hath can easly mass ling while teching and force you to invest in ling/defense so you won't have money to work with a 3rd hath.
|
I guess this means that going for a 3rd hatch will force you to only gather gas for ling speed. Since your opponent send his overlord in the wrong direction, you have the opportunity to "hide" the hatchery and go for a zergling timing attack.
Thus not a solid reaction you can do every time, but something more along the lines that can catch your opponent off guard.
|
please stop playing 12 hatch on fs T_T
|
I normally don't 12 hatch since I've only started to learn 9 pool and 12 pool seriously. But what's wrong with 12 hatch when currently almost everyone goes 12 pool?
|
nothing, its just that i play against so many mainhatch and 12 hatch on fs giving me free win because i like to play 9 pool
|
On the other hand, what is possible on the amateur level we all are is 4hath before gas into mass hydra with +1. This can be played vs any timing of pool as you defend with lings/sunkers/drones and don't need any gas before getting plenty of drones/spores.
|
|
On October 07 2016 19:09 kogeT wrote:On the other hand, what is possible on the amateur level we all are is 4hath before gas into mass hydra with +1. This can be played vs any timing of pool as you defend with lings/sunkers/drones and don't need any gas before getting plenty of drones/spores.
Sounds cool kogeT. Do you happen to have any replays of this style? Normally when I go for hydralisks in zvz, I tend to do it after I opened with a 3 hatch build (not necessarily 3 hatch before pool). I'll put on heavy pressure with zerglings while forgoing lair and then transition behind spores to hydras. I go for a 2/1 attack with lurkers included and I've found that a muta ling army can't really beat this head on.
|
Problem with going hydra/lurker is that the more time you give to your opponent the more he can abuse mass expanding / making a huge sunken line / killing your spores with cloud of mutas.
That's why when I played hydras in zvz I used to grow my economy on minerals as much as possible (as you need a lot for static defense and 4 hath), add 2 gases and quickly start adding +1 and hydra upg. You should move out with about 30-36 hydras and +1 upgrade. If you have less hydras they somehow lose efficiency vs muta/ling.
Some things you may want to remember:
- start off with an economic build, meaning 12pool or 12 hath, but rememeber you won't get lings speed so you relay on drone/ling/sunken in your natural. With that build you're no aggresive before having a big army. - the most difficult part is establishing a strong drone count as you need to be very careful vs mass lings early in the game and vs mutas picking up your drones. It's better to over-do your defence than die. - add 4 hathes before any spores or gases - add gases only when you feel safe vs ling/muta, meaning you have a sufficient ling/sunken defense and minimum 2 spores main/exp - try to build a simcity so your spores and sunkes and difficult to reach - your scouting may be very limited when mutas are out, so consider having 1-2 lings somewhere on the map for later scout (for example is he making many lings, or if he's making a sunken line to prepare for a muta bust when you move out, or mb he's switching his tech or adding a 3rd?) - think about a nice transition if you managed to get a significant amount of hydras. Start adding lair when you move out with you initial army (30-36 hydra) so when you hit his natural you know if you try to kill or need muta or lurker. If you see him transition in some kind of hive or lurker or anything else than mass muta, go for a nice 12 muta timing from all larvas. If he continues mass/ling, go back and add 3 lurkers to your army while massing hydras
etc. etc
|
Thanks for the comments kogeT. I'm just a bit hesitant about foregoing gas from the start because it makes it very easy for your opponent to know what you're doing. Especially since you don't have speed now, you have zero ways to put on pressure yourself.
I like my method of 3 hatch ling speed because it can put on a lot of pressure, while still being able to transition into an economy rapidly. Then because I still go lair, I leave my opponent somewhat in the dark on whether I'm going for mutalisks as well or hydralisks.
Of course, I haven't played this style versus any great players yet so I can't make any judgements on whether it is actually a solid strategy.
|
If you do this, you better just spam nonstop lings and hope to win with overwhelming ling numbers, not really ideal to try and use this as a standard thing.
|
Ive been beating A level zergs back in 2004-2007 with this mass hydra build.:p
|
On October 17 2016 02:50 GGzerG wrote: If you do this, you better just spam nonstop lings and hope to win with overwhelming ling numbers, not really ideal to try and use this as a standard thing.
These two things aren't mutually exclusive. I'm doing a mass ling style and am trying to end the game. But if I see it's not working out, I start to transition and then (mostly for fun) I occasionally try hydralisks.
On October 18 2016 23:34 kogeT wrote: Ive been beating A level zergs back in 2004-2007 with this mass hydra build.:p
Nice. Do you want to share any replays? Or even better, maybe you can showcase it on your stream? :D
|
I dont have any replays from that period. I think I played that some time age vs some low level zerg just for fun.
|
On October 15 2016 01:23 B-royal wrote: Thanks for the comments kogeT. I'm just a bit hesitant about foregoing gas from the start because it makes it very easy for your opponent to know what you're doing. Especially since you don't have speed now, you have zero ways to put on pressure yourself.
I like my method of 3 hatch ling speed because it can put on a lot of pressure, while still being able to transition into an economy rapidly. Then because I still go lair, I leave my opponent somewhat in the dark on whether I'm going for mutalisks as well or hydralisks.
Of course, I haven't played this style versus any great players yet so I can't make any judgements on whether it is actually a solid strategy.
I second what koget does.
3 hatch lings is great if you can kill the opponents, but if you can kill/damage your opponent significant then you dont really need the hydra follow up.
To get hydras to beomce effective you need to mass them (since they outrange mutas). Muta micro is very effective in taking small amounts of hydras. You need lots of minerals/drones for hydras and spores for defending against muta.
I remember a game that xiaozi does it in the teamliquid attack - obviously some skill difference between the players. 1:39:00. See VOD. He later combines queen w/ ensnare onto his hydra play. www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=11&topic_id=514691
He only went for 3 hatch before gas though probably because his opponent was on 1 base only.
|
The basic idea in ZvZ is that if you manage to scout your opponent fast (e.g. old maps like Lost Temple), you can always try to squeeze 1 more drone than he has: you try to gain an economic advantage coming straight from the build order. Some will disagree with this strategy and religiously play stuff like 12pool (even when scouting the opponent), but I believe that this "+1 drone" approach generally works, even if you delay your spire timing by few seconds - your mutas should hatch in time to defend you vs the incoming enemy mutas. Basically if he goes 12 pool and you scout it, you can go 13 pool, or even do a 12 hatch (although it is debatable if the opponent will not expand).
3 hatch before pool happens often when two players with a similar approach meet each other: they both refuse to build the pool and wait to see what the opponent is doing. The "natural" approach is that both expand, then both of them build a 3rd hatch.. then probably one of them stops the "game of chicken" and either builds a gas, or a pool (if none player chickens out, then both should build gas->pool, you basically end up in a moment where you have the minerals to build a pool). Technically this could extend to a 4th hatch, but a 3hatch timing attack with a spawning pool can probably kill a 4 hatch, especially as the 4hatch player will not have the minerals to even use the hatch. Later on, usually both players then skip speed and go straight for a spire with mass lings to defend. The game slowly transits back to a typical ZvZ.
Please note, what I wrote is not about a "pure" 3 hatch build. It's not something that is decided before the game even starts, but rather something that is made up on the spot - as a reaction to your opponent on basis of the information you scouted. Basically both players do a sort of a "game of chicken" - both try to delay building their lings and try to be greedy with their economies as much as possible.
|
|
|
|