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On October 29 2016 03:06 Cryoc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2016 16:15 Sheridan wrote:On October 28 2016 15:50 Highgamer wrote:
As for TvP:
No pro is going for that siege-rush, for a reason. It won't work at all at some level, the goons will widdle away on your marines, force you to siege multiple times, and just snipe the tank(s) eventually. Or they'll let you come close and break the contain as soon as they have enough army.
The FD on the other hand zones out goons reliably with mines, offers safety against DT-openings, and gives you more scouting information in the transition to the midgame. AND it can kill the Protoss, too, if you go with a few more marines or if the toss messes up his/her control.
That said, as long as you feel that you prefer one rush-strategy over others because it wins you games, go for it if you want.
TvT might feel as if it's a cheese fest, but once you know the 3-4 basic aggressive options, it becomes the least dicey mirror-mu, and it is VERY macro-heavy then, the only mu where Terran regularly takes more than 3-4 bases. It's also incredibly control-heavy at some point due to siege-line management, drop-play, different harrass-options, multitasking...
The point is that many Terrans don't want to learn the mu at all as it's very scarce on lower levels, and if they play, I'd say that 3 out of 4 go for aggressive builds to end the game within the first 10 minutes. 2 fact vult+tank rushes, 3+ fact vulture rushes, fast-dropship-play, 2port-wraith... If you scout carefully and know the reaction to those builds, TvT is not a cheese fest at all.
But again, as long as you feel you're doing better by countering fire with fire, go for the cheese yourself, eventually you'll meet better Terrans who stop it and then you can reconsider. Thanks for the input and I will definitely take your advice and go the less cheesy route as that will help me improve faster. Ill watch some TvTs to understand how the Fac FE works and im watching the TvP FD build by stylish and flash. If you have a lot of trouble right now vs any kind of aggressive play, you can always go for 2 fac vult+with speed and mines as opening. For me this is a very flexible build that can you win games outright vs badly prepared opponents, but you can still prevent early counters in case of good defense with mines in front of his natural and threaten runbys. If you switch to tanks at a good time after expanding you can even contain him if he is too slow at clearing the mine field. The only important thing to remember when playing this build is to build a safety armory in case you face a starport opening. Here is a replay of the 2 fac version I use occasionally: http://bwreplays.com/dgr21
I like how that build put you in control of the pace of the game and it was really cool seeing goliaths that early on. what would you have done if the enemy went wraith? how would you defend?
also, what do you do if he went the same build (mass vults)?
Thanks for showing me that replay. the replays help the most especially when you guys explain what I should be looking for.
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If he goes wraiths it depends on if he goes 1 or 2 port, vs 1 port I would only get 2-4 goliaths one for each base and expand while I put mines at his natural and on the way to me (but clustered for a higher chance, that they go off). Vs 2 port I build continuously goliaths and upgrade range. You can sometimes outright kill him with pure goliaths, because he only has like 1 tank at his ramp. For both cases though you have to watch out for cloak and add an ebay or academy after you see the first wraith. Depending on the timing of the wraiths you can tell somewhat if he goes for cloak or not, but that is hard to do.
Vs 2 fac vults I stay defensive and change to goliaths when the armory is done to counter his vultures and not die to a potential 3 fac. Then you can carefully push through the minefields with everything once you have like 4-6 goliaths. Behind that I expand.
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On October 30 2016 00:35 Cryoc wrote: If he goes wraiths it depends on if he goes 1 or 2 port, vs 1 port I would only get 2-4 goliaths one for each base and expand while I put mines at his natural and on the way to me (but clustered for a higher chance, that they go off). Vs 2 port I build continuously goliaths and upgrade range. You can sometimes outright kill him with pure goliaths, because he only has like 1 tank at his ramp. For both cases though you have to watch out for cloak and add an ebay or academy after you see the first wraith. Depending on the timing of the wraiths you can tell somewhat if he goes for cloak or not, but that is hard to do.
Vs 2 fac vults I stay defensive and change to goliaths when the armory is done to counter his vultures and not die to a potential 3 fac. Then you can carefully push through the minefields with everything once you have like 4-6 goliaths. Behind that I expand.
I saw that goliaths tear apart mines. if u have 6 goliaths u can just A move past mines?
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On October 30 2016 00:59 Sheridan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2016 00:35 Cryoc wrote: If he goes wraiths it depends on if he goes 1 or 2 port, vs 1 port I would only get 2-4 goliaths one for each base and expand while I put mines at his natural and on the way to me (but clustered for a higher chance, that they go off). Vs 2 port I build continuously goliaths and upgrade range. You can sometimes outright kill him with pure goliaths, because he only has like 1 tank at his ramp. For both cases though you have to watch out for cloak and add an ebay or academy after you see the first wraith. Depending on the timing of the wraiths you can tell somewhat if he goes for cloak or not, but that is hard to do.
Vs 2 fac vults I stay defensive and change to goliaths when the armory is done to counter his vultures and not die to a potential 3 fac. Then you can carefully push through the minefields with everything once you have like 4-6 goliaths. Behind that I expand. I saw that goliaths tear apart mines. if u have 6 goliaths u can just A move past mines? Yes, they are pretty good at clearing mines, simple A move is enough for a few mines. But you have to move more carefully if the mine field is very dense, because you might drag too much mines at once.
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Would love for this post and the protoss one to be sticki'd as a resource for the influx of new players without much of a reference to build orders and run of the mill standard play. These have been helping me a lot in the infinite climb towards that first win <3
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On October 30 2016 11:28 halomonian wrote: Would love for this post and the protoss one to be sticki'd as a resource for the influx of new players without much of a reference to build orders and run of the mill standard play. These have been helping me a lot in the infinite climb towards that first win <3
Yeah it would be nice to have a beginner's thread with everything simplified BUT updated with the latest trends. like one or two BOs per match up that focus on macro and standard play and the explanation of the BO and why the BO is like it is. Something like "Essential Beginner Opener BOs for each race."
At this moment, there are so many BOs on the TL wiki to choose from and some are outdated. It's a bit overwhelming at first for a beginner. to b honest, when you receive support through people on TL, it makes learning and playing a far more enjoyable learning experience. So an easy to update thread with people constantly tweaking it here and there when necessary would be great.
And I don't think it would be too hard since most people agree on which openings beginners should learn first.
PvZ-Forge Expand into +1 Speedlots and Sair PvT-Goon Range Expand PvP-? 2 Gate Reaver ?
TvZ-9 Minute Push TvP-FD TvT-Fac FE
ZvT-3 Hatch Muta ZvP-3 Hatch Hydra ZvZ-?
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ZvT 3 hatch muta or 3 hatch lurker. 3 hatch lurker should be easier for a completely new player.
In my personal opinion, ZvP 3 hatch hydra isn't that good of a build order at lower ranks since low level protoss players aren't scared of opening with 2 cannons and adding more when they don't know what's coming. I have an easier time doing a 3 hatch hydra build against higher ranked opponents since they try to get away with as little defenses as possible most of the time.
Also, when your 3 hatch fails, transitioning out of it is quite hard especially versus protoss players that skip stargate (more common at lower ranks).
ZvZ: I would say learn 12 pool, beginners are going to have some difficulties against 9 pool most likely but once they learn how to defend their hatchery, they're in a solid position. It's much easier to win in different scenarios when you go 12 pool than it is with a 9 pool.
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On October 26 2016 13:05 Ty2 wrote: I typed in "Beginner builds" in the search bar under BW strategy and some of them were Terran ones. New is always better than old!!
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