https://www.mediafire.com/?vqr190n8ak5q5s2,em1q1ete96ncqs4.
[H]TvP 3cc Macro
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Ars0n_
28 Posts
https://www.mediafire.com/?vqr190n8ak5q5s2,em1q1ete96ncqs4. | ||
kogeT
Poland1996 Posts
I would also be happy to hear your opinions on how to control your army, meaning vulture + tank + goliath + vessel, as the longer game goes the more chaotic it becomes (you can even see Flash having plenty of chaos in his hotkeys and army movement at some points, is becoming impossible to have clean control with terran macro and late game concept) Now taking about some basics from my gameplay/experience. Things to consider: - You should always move your army to threaten most expansions at the same time. This should obviously only be executed when you can assure that no deadly backstab/recall can happen, as many P players look after walking directly into your main after seeing that you have moved deep into the map. - In many situations protoss player will keep most/all gateways at his main (and that's why it's so important that the P player splits his production). If you see that majority of his production is located in his main, it's a very strong move to push his natural and block his main, as no further reinforcements will appear on the map and usually it's GG (you can go and clean expos with few units). This is also working well for cross position, as protoss players would take 4 expos near him (and on FS there is not place to add gateways there) - You should be aware that at the moment that terran moves out with his 200/200 (or following 200/200 pushes), it means that protoss is also 200/200 and cannot grow any further. That being said, the only thing that protoss can do is add extra expos / production. If you can in any way cover "your expansions on the map" (thinking about even split), you are on a good way, as there is no particular reason to attack as long as you can go into very late game on same amount of expos. This actually forces a protoss to attack/recall, as no protoss wants to play split map scenario (as terran is just more cost effecient). This point I would use mostly for 2nd or 3rd 200/200 push rather for the 1st one (as during your let's say 3rd 200/200 5 base protoss will become unhappy with staying on 5 bases). In general: be patient. If you have 200/200 try to get the best position for a fight and try not to be cought off guard with unsieged tanks (again: protoss cannot add more units, so focus on your army!) - Based on above point, a good protoss will nearly always establish a 6th base (speaking FS, for other maps I mean the opposite corner main base expansion) before or just after your initial 200/200 push. So when the game continuous and you trade some bases, you need to consider how to take out that base to have a possibility of playing a super late game strategy of splitting the map (and never really attacking unless sure of winning). This can be executed in two main ways: a strong/slow push into that expo or dropship play during the game. (e.g 1-2 dropships with some vulture runbys). This far away single expansion is usually guarded by canons/ht/dt so it's possible to take it out with less units. Making a strong/heavy push is usually only possible when you really go there with most of the army (as it's very difficult to hold aggresive recalls and countrattacks from the other side), hence I suggest to do it only when you have really covered other paths well (with plenty of turrets, mines, vessels and some tanks). As for the progamers, you can see f.ex. Flash using double dropships just for the sake of taking out that expansion. Also, from the protoss point of view, as long as he keeps that expansion he's ok to just defend through out the late game and deplete your bank account (with constant defensive/aggressive recalls, ht on the ramp and other ways) - Now general point on army movement. What you ultimately want to achieve with every push (not discussing the specific position of the army) is to create a threat to the protoss where he either commits to a fight or start losing bases . On the P side, unless he has a bigger army/better position, he will alwyas try to run around your army and create threats rather than attack your mech ball. That being said, you should visualize this as cat and mouse game on the map, where you manouver with you army in a way that limits his moves / pushes his in direction of his expos, while he tries to escape and create a threat of a backstab/recall/flank etc. Flash has been extremely strong with this and I recommend watching some of his vods (when he moves out with his 200/200 force it usually takes 1-2 changes of direction before he forces a protoss to fight) In practice it means that you may need to go back and fourth plenty of times before one of you blinks and puts your army in a constraint spot. - One short point on carrier play. If you play vs cariers what you want to achieve is always keep a protoss busy while expanding like crazy. The fact here is that you need to nearly outexpand protoss as the only way for him to take out your expos is go with all his cariers (due to a fact that his army would be much smaller and you can usually easily defend with pure vultre/mine and mb with few extra tanks). The whole concept of play vs carriers could elaborated in a whole book, but principles are as above: try to keep on fighting him and threatening expansions while expanding as much as possible (as you need plenty of gas/facts to maintain goliaths production). In fact, if Protoss ever gets the initiative to just fly around the map with plenty of carieres it's usually a GG, as he can just create too many threats everywhere (killing your production, killing all your CCs etc.) Protoss can get that initiative if you lost a majority of your army without sufficient dmg or if he was able to secure good expansions with HT/canons etc. forcing you to split your army too much. Carriers are becoming stronger when they are attacking rather than defending. That's it for now, these were quick thoughts from A+ icc terran. There is MUCH more but we would have to look into specific situations. | ||
Filco
France154 Posts
Dual fpv here : www.youtube.com Terran fpv only here : www.youtube.com For a delayed 3rd CC while being very offensive in both early and mid game : www.youtube.com | ||
kogeT
Poland1996 Posts
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Highgamer
1335 Posts
First of all: it's not really that you're doing anything wrong, it's just that you will need a few (many) more games until everything you actually have to do to pose a thread to Protoss will come together. That's just the difficulty in TvP. You write that Protoss has taken all the bases until you move out and you think you need midgame pressure. 1) On your skill-level, you can sort-of solve these problems indirectly by fixing macro-problems. Apart from a little too much SCV-missing even in the early/midgame, you start a lot of things not on-time, and you have some big blunders in your build order that should be fixed+ Show Spoiler + - your first depot, rax and gas are a little late, very unnecessary so early on - you build 3 marines even though you went for wall/siege-expo and scouted his early expo, safe the minerals - you start your 3rd CC before your armory and your 2nd gas, should be the other way around (in standard-play) - you don't start your +1 upgrade for ages, that delays your +2/+1 timing by so much - your turret-placement wouldn't have held of shuttle-drops on your mineral-lines - your additional factories could be earlier - check out your resource-floating between minutes 12.00 and 13.0 - the build picks up speed around the time you saturate your third, build SCVs from 3 CCs, have to bring the upgrades on the way, add depots, factories, queue units... there's so much need for efficient macro-multitasking here, and room for improvements generally 2) You don't scout enough. The first time you scout anything after your initial SCV-scout is a scan at minute 10.00... You move your tanks to the natural bridge without scouting, same later on when you move them across the bridge... any 10 zealot-supported attack would have killed you. Your vultures should be out on the map laying mines/scouting as soon as you have speed. You didn't confirm/know where he had a 3rd before he already took his 4th... This Protoss was extremely greedy (3 bases on 2 gates, 4 bases on 3 gates), so normally you want to punish him by taking a super-fast 3rd or going for a 2-base-push (but I suggest you just stick with your build for a while, but start to learn to scout for opportunities to cut corners, for example taking your 3rd without all the siege-tank-repositioning-hassle). 3) As for midgame-pressure: Macro comes first, but if your macro can take it, you want to start using vultures to roam the map for opportunities, scouting and laying mines in the midgame. If you see an opening, dart in with your vultures and look for probe-kills or even zealot- and goon-kills, if not then just resume posing a threat. + Show Spoiler + You actually did that once with 3-4 vultes and killed like 10 probes and a goon, that's perfect. A vulture roaming the bottom left-bases (with patrol-command) could have denied the 5th base that he took before you moved out. A group of vultures alone could have killed the 4th base at the top-right at any point in the late-midgame/early-lategame (just focus-fire down the 3 cannons if they're placed in this manner, start killing probes and attack the nexus, force him to bring goons). 4) Your main problem in the lategame was not that he already had all the bases (he didn't...), but that you didn't strike after killing his whole army (could've been even more one-sided if 1/3 of your army wasn't just watching xD). All kinds of problems occur if the first engagement does not go too well (see kogeT's advice), but if it goes well, you cannot take a 2 minute break from pushing only to secure your 4th base. If you kill the whole Protoss army with your first big push, this opens a short timing where you can advance, maybe even reach his natural for a contain or one of his expansions. Scan his expansions and natural, scout ahead with vultures, and make a call where to go, pick one thing that you concentrate on (you should have a goal before pushing out actually); grab your reinforcements and start moving asap; don't run into a bad engagement against his reinforcements, just siege up in case; start laying siege on something vital for him. Meanwhile/Afer this take your 4th in the safest location and set up some defenses if you think he's going for recall or counter-attack, and send out a few vultures to scout for hidden bases. | ||
XenOsky
Chile2103 Posts
You're not trying to straight up win the game with 200 army, u're trying to secure expo and win an advange by killing 1 or 2 protoss bases. | ||
radley
Poland575 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
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