So I was watching Jaedong`s stream (as you do) and I noticed that something new happened!
Basically he did base trades against a Terran. He was pumping mutas and was destroying the main and natural of the Terran with them mutas and lings. In the mean time the Terran was killing JD`s natural. So what did the dong do? Made sunkens in his main base and ONE lurker. While he killed the 2 scanners at home for the terran. GG
So have you seen similar things in other match ups? Ive seen valkyries being used unsuccessfully in TvZ.
P.S. If any1 has the link to that game I would appreciate it. <3
While looking for the first game I found ANOTHER game! Burrowed lings:
Burrowed at the big ramp of the Terran:
Unburrows as the mutas come in... kills everything...
I like the idea of this thread, gathering new developments people see evolving on the 24/7 streams.
But what you observed sounds like a not so common but also not never seen variation of the mass-muta/ling-midgame to me, just the base-race-scenario of that situation with the 'correct' reaction to make the most out of the follow up lurker(s). There is a good timing for this right after Terran moves out and doesn't care for defenses enough, especially if Terran's economy got weakened earlier on.
On November 25 2016 17:17 Highgamer wrote: I like the idea of this thread, gathering new developments people see evolving on the 24/7 streams.
But what you observed sounds like a not so common but also not never seen variation of the mass-muta/ling-midgame to me, just the base-race-scenario of that situation with the 'correct' reaction to make the most out of the follow up lurker(s). There is a good timing for this right after Terran moves out and doesn't care for defenses enough, especially if Terran's economy got weakened earlier on.
I know EVERYTHING was done at some point in Brood War BUT that doesnt mean everybody knows about it. I was nicely surprised. I think its mostly subtle stuff that I cant even really catch on. But that one was so obvious that I couldn`t miss it.
There was a game by Sea I think, probably in ASL, TvZ on FS, Sea at 5'o clock vs Zerg at 11'o clock. He used a brilliant new build that opened with vult runby or something similar, and then it had other steps following it in flawless logic that left me amazed. The zerg can do very little once it hits. Haven't seen a build like that in a very long time, it was so brilliant. Too bad I don't remember it exactly and can't remember the game.
@op: valk builds were common for a while. You could see Flash going valkonic quite often.
Rather than making a new thread every time something odd happens in a streamed match.
Anyway, as to your next question, there was also a Proleague match where TvZ, Terran had only 1 Science Vessel left for detection because Zerg had killed the Comsats. Pretty well-known, I'm sure someone else will remember the exact details.\
Upmagic and I believe Sea.Really both used a tactic in TvP where they would blind Protoss Observers with Medics while going Bio+Mech with Mines.
There have been numerous games in PvT where Protoss recalls on Terran bases and kills Comsat stations, leaving the Terran with no Scans. I can think of at least one professional match I saw during the KeSPA era where this happened, but I don't remember the exact details on that one either.
Burrowed lings were pretty common in old school matches.
On November 26 2016 18:44 quirinus wrote: There was a game by Sea I think, probably in ASL, TvZ on FS, Sea at 5'o clock vs Zerg at 11'o clock. He used a brilliant new build that opened with vult runby or something similar, and then it had other steps following it in flawless logic that left me amazed. The zerg can do very little once it hits. Haven't seen a build like that in a very long time, it was so brilliant. Too bad I don't remember it exactly and can't remember the game.
I think the game was vs Zero on CB (same positions as you mentioned)
I'm more impressed with the ease with which Soulkey, Effort, and Zero are now able to defend the 1 rax ebay > 5 rax opening, that they can actually lose a lot of drones in their natural, or their third base, but purely by efficient use of muta/ling to trade down the marines constantly, still manage to make Terran's life hell. The ZvT meta has come a long way in general since the last OSL. I've seen lurker counter attacks, and transitions to middlegame off of a delayed third base in the wrong corner of the map, that are just beautiful. Then there's the drone timing, the muta/queen/overlord use, and the general rhythms modern top Zergs get into while attacking every location on the map at once, when it comes to the middlegame itself. And beautiful dropship defence as well. Terrans are shedding many tears these days. I think Terrans need to change it up again, either relying on valkyrie openings more, or situationally sticking with SK Terran, expanding a bit more conservatively with mech in the middlegame, or just keeping their pressure/contain groups together better against ambushes in general. Every ZvT I watch seems to go the same way.
i think judging from the streams recently that bio is having a tough time. then again, i have no idea what the maps used are nowadays. i think it was sea however who managed to win against JD by amassing a huge vessel cloud and just irradiating lurkers and defilers until he gave up.
I have that theory that with ten more years, terran gameplay would be biomech every game. It just happens to be really hard and confusing to play, but i think that's the ultimate way to approach terrans. The amount of damage a couple of ctrl groups of mm in a mech army can do to protoss for example is absolutely insane.
Dunno what Starcraft you are playing, but asides from AI with unlimited APM, Terrans will never go biomech every game especially vs Protoss who only need 1-2 reavers or high templars in their army to completely crush any biomech push.
On November 30 2016 22:43 Cryoc wrote: Dunno what Starcraft you are playing, but asides from AI with unlimited APM, Terrans will never go biomech every game especially vs Protoss who only need 1-2 reavers or high templars in their army to completely crush any biomech push.
Well mm completely rape carriers and more importantly zealots. I don't advocate relying mainly on them, but i really believe having a few in a traditional mech army would be hugely beneficial. The problem i think is that it's a micro and macro nightmare and no one has time for that.
Same in tvz, there is no reason when you transition to mech to just stop producing mm entirely imo, other than the fact that it's much, much harder to produce and control.
On November 30 2016 22:43 Cryoc wrote: Dunno what Starcraft you are playing, but asides from AI with unlimited APM, Terrans will never go biomech every game especially vs Protoss who only need 1-2 reavers or high templars in their army to completely crush any biomech push.
Well mm completely rape carriers and more importantly zealots. I don't advocate relying mainly on them, but i really believe having a few in a traditional mech army would be hugely beneficial. The problem i think is that it's a micro and macro nightmare and no one has time for that.
Same in tvz, there is no reason when you transition to mech to just stop producing mm entirely imo, other than the fact that it's much, much harder to produce and control.
MMs might destroy carries when they are 3/3 but at 0/0 they are useless. And you are not going to fully upgrade them for the off chance that Protoss is going carries. And even then add some high templars to it and they are still useless. They are just not effective come mid-late game.
Same applies to TvsZ. If you planned to keep mixing bio and mech, you had to upgrade them both which is gas intensive. And you need the gas for tanks, which scale immense with numbers.
On November 30 2016 23:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On November 30 2016 22:43 Cryoc wrote: Dunno what Starcraft you are playing, but asides from AI with unlimited APM, Terrans will never go biomech every game especially vs Protoss who only need 1-2 reavers or high templars in their army to completely crush any biomech push.
Well mm completely rape carriers and more importantly zealots. I don't advocate relying mainly on them, but i really believe having a few in a traditional mech army would be hugely beneficial. The problem i think is that it's a micro and macro nightmare and no one has time for that.
Same in tvz, there is no reason when you transition to mech to just stop producing mm entirely imo, other than the fact that it's much, much harder to produce and control.
MMs might destroy carries when they are 3/3 but at 0/0 they are useless. And you are not going to fully upgrade them for the off chance that Protoss is going carries. And even then add some high templars to it and they are still useless. They are just not effective come mid-late game.
Same applies to TvsZ. If you planned to keep mixing bio and mech, you had to upgrade them both which is gas intensive. And you need the gas for tanks, which scale immense with numbers.
But in the case on v Zerg, terran usually has upgraded already to +1 when trasitioning to mech.
Against protoss i somewhat think it's still worth it. In a whole game scale, infantry upgrade is not a huge investment. It's not like you invest it all at once early mid game or something.
I remember Flash winning really convincingly some tvz with a tank goliath mm timing oush. At the time it seemed really indestructible. Also what i have noticed is when terran transition, he usually have a few mm (who end up dying) and usually those are really efficient while they are around..
On November 30 2016 23:55 Biff The Understudy wrote: Well mm completely rape carriers and more importantly zealots. I don't advocate relying mainly on them, but i really believe having a few in a traditional mech army would be hugely beneficial. The problem i think is that it's a micro and macro nightmare and no one has time for that.
Same in tvz, there is no reason when you transition to mech to just stop producing mm entirely imo, other than the fact that it's much, much harder to produce and control.
Acutally on good enough numbers zealots can hold their own pretty well when they have speed, that base armor makes wonder. Having a few of them? What should be the number of mm compared mech, how big is the p army? You need context and logic to justify building mm, well I guess even more. As Cryoc said they are too easily countered by a miryad a of protoss things to worth bothering with them, especially when you already going mech. From a practical point of a view: 1. MM can be a good suprise for that protoss who didn`t went down on the path of the templar just yet, after that they are pretty useless, as if you go into late game, EMP just doesn`t have the radius to be an effective workaround. I played some SK terran vs p over the years goin for late game and it doesn`t work. Again 2 base arbi is popular and the storm is just a spit away to research. 2. MM can have a support role for 1-2 fac pushes/rushes. Maybe this is their best use. 3. In some rare situations, for ex. following up a BBS, or you scout 2-3gw proxy zea. The main problem is after templar tech and (to some degree hold sture for reavers) the infrastucture you purchased (if more than 1 rax), the upgrades, the units are all wasted money.
On November 30 2016 23:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On November 30 2016 22:43 Cryoc wrote: Dunno what Starcraft you are playing, but asides from AI with unlimited APM, Terrans will never go biomech every game especially vs Protoss who only need 1-2 reavers or high templars in their army to completely crush any biomech push.
Well mm completely rape carriers and more importantly zealots. I don't advocate relying mainly on them, but i really believe having a few in a traditional mech army would be hugely beneficial. The problem i think is that it's a micro and macro nightmare and no one has time for that.
On November 30 2016 23:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On November 30 2016 22:43 Cryoc wrote: Dunno what Starcraft you are playing, but asides from AI with unlimited APM, Terrans will never go biomech every game especially vs Protoss who only need 1-2 reavers or high templars in their army to completely crush any biomech push.
Same in tvz, there is no reason when you transition to mech to just stop producing mm entirely imo, other than the fact that it's much, much harder to produce and control.
MMs might destroy carries when they are 3/3 but at 0/0 they are useless. And you are not going to fully upgrade them for the off chance that Protoss is going carries. And even then add some high templars to it and they are still useless. They are just not effective come mid-late game.
Same applies to TvsZ. If you planned to keep mixing bio and mech, you had to upgrade them both which is gas intensive. And you need the gas for tanks, which scale immense with numbers.
MM doesn`t destroys carriers either if their 0-0 or 3-3 but they do destroy interceptors in both cases. Most of the time when you can afford to go mech comfortably with 3+ bases/gases, the upgrade cost isn`t a big of an issue anymore. It`s the convinence factor (and maybe the lack of space) what makes you to stop producing mm, not to mention you can`t do shit with them anymore against swarm/lurk -> hence the transition.