On November 30 2016 23:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On November 30 2016 22:43 Cryoc wrote: Dunno what Starcraft you are playing, but asides from AI with unlimited APM, Terrans will never go biomech every game especially vs Protoss who only need 1-2 reavers or high templars in their army to completely crush any biomech push.
Well mm completely rape carriers and more importantly zealots. I don't advocate relying mainly on them, but i really believe having a few in a traditional mech army would be hugely beneficial. The problem i think is that it's a micro and macro nightmare and no one has time for that.
Same in tvz, there is no reason when you transition to mech to just stop producing mm entirely imo, other than the fact that it's much, much harder to produce and control.
MMs might destroy carries when they are 3/3 but at 0/0 they are useless. And you are not going to fully upgrade them for the off chance that Protoss is going carries. And even then add some high templars to it and they are still useless. They are just not effective come mid-late game.
Same applies to TvsZ. If you planned to keep mixing bio and mech, you had to upgrade them both which is gas intensive. And you need the gas for tanks, which scale immense with numbers.
0/0 marines chew up interceptors easily so long as they have stim-- but you need a decent concentration of marines for that to be possible in the first place. Not just mixing in 'a few'.
In fact there were tricks used to be able to shoot with the Valkyrie flying backwards / maximize the range.
Canata vs Jeadong - never forget!
Dunno what Starcraft you are playing, but asides from AI with unlimited APM, Terrans will never go biomech every game especially vs Protoss who only need 1-2 reavers or high templars in their army to completely crush any biomech push.
No, actually hight templars can be compromised the same way the lurkers are - irradiate (or EMP) from SV, and reavers can be eliminated by ghosts, at last in theory. But seriously, why to bother with bio? Pure mech will do that better, with lesser APM requirements and with much safer way. The same with late SK terran against Zerg - whats the point? Its raped by ulraling pretty hard, its easier to go mech. In worst case the outcome is the same.
Please make a test how many templars and vessels you can make in a certain amount of time, with the same amount of bases, while considering you don`t want to die to zealot/goon (so you`ll need much more raxes and possibly fewer sps), and you may want to also excert pressure, and threaten the p. Consider the same factors for lockdown vs reavers. Even in theory this doesn`t work; well not in that theory that takes to account any basic practical aspects. In practice both are pretty much impossible. Or you could just read my previous post, where I adressed this issue in detail, but for why?
First time I saw something like this was when Linyu)PJ won vs ILoveoov by using carriers to kill CCs in a base trade and kill terran army with DTs.
Bio In TvP is not efficient long term because every EMP/Irradiate has to hit every HT to make it remotely possible, where as one mistake by the terran means 1 storm can kill double digit bio forces.
The problem is that it is an extremely high risk build with medium reward once HTs are out.
Its similar to marine micro vs lurker: its not worth it if you can lose the game by doing it.
On November 30 2016 23:55 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On November 30 2016 22:43 Cryoc wrote: Dunno what Starcraft you are playing, but asides from AI with unlimited APM, Terrans will never go biomech every game especially vs Protoss who only need 1-2 reavers or high templars in their army to completely crush any biomech push.
Well mm completely rape carriers and more importantly zealots. I don't advocate relying mainly on them, but i really believe having a few in a traditional mech army would be hugely beneficial. The problem i think is that it's a micro and macro nightmare and no one has time for that.
Same in tvz, there is no reason when you transition to mech to just stop producing mm entirely imo, other than the fact that it's much, much harder to produce and control.
MMs might destroy carries when they are 3/3 but at 0/0 they are useless. And you are not going to fully upgrade them for the off chance that Protoss is going carries. And even then add some high templars to it and they are still useless. They are just not effective come mid-late game.
Same applies to TvsZ. If you planned to keep mixing bio and mech, you had to upgrade them both which is gas intensive. And you need the gas for tanks, which scale immense with numbers.
0/0 marines chew up interceptors easily so long as they have stim-- but you need a decent concentration of marines for that to be possible in the first place. Not just mixing in 'a few'.
See this game of Violet vs Hiya.... Hiya used marine effectively to kill off violet's interceptors.
Of course such strategy is very situation dependent and you cant rely on marine medics alone to counter carriers every game..
Marine & medics is a great way to kill interceptors on situation where rines are always protected by tanks (splitmap and no possibility to get flanked by protoss templar supported ground army, blue storm would be good). also you need to scout carrier tech early enough to make both upgrades and add couple raxes. It has been used, but it works only on some situations just like wraiths. Golis will always be the safer bet since with marines range its hard to kill anything else than just the interceptors.
On November 26 2016 18:44 quirinus wrote: There was a game by Sea I think, probably in ASL, TvZ on FS, Sea at 5'o clock vs Zerg at 11'o clock. He used a brilliant new build that opened with vult runby or something similar, and then it had other steps following it in flawless logic that left me amazed. The zerg can do very little once it hits. Haven't seen a build like that in a very long time, it was so brilliant. Too bad I don't remember it exactly and can't remember the game.
I think the game was vs Zero on CB (same positions as you mentioned)
Didnt see that game, but vult runby is an old cheese. most zergs knows the threat and its really easy to block with simcity once mech has been scouted.
It's not cheese, it opens with 1 rax CC and comes as a 2 hatch muta response. You tech to Vessels and zerg doesn't have anything to stop the speedvults due to the low larva count, so the mutas have to pull back for a while. Similar game although the vessel variation is greedier but stronger
On January 04 2017 02:26 ortseam wrote: It's not cheese, it opens with 1 rax CC and comes as a 2 hatch muta response. You tech to Vessels and zerg doesn't have anything to stop the speedvults due to the low larva count, so the mutas have to pull back for a while. Similar game although the vessel variation is greedier but stronger
Ok I imssunderstood the build. Now i see how terran can get early ground control on map, but cant see why zerg would need to pull mutas back when he can just use simcity and one sunken to defend. Continous vults to third on no ramp map can be a problem tho, but should be quite easy to defend on ramp maps with just a couple mutas and bunch of lings, if terran brings marines zerg should be able to either kill his army or to attack his base since every vult and upgrades means less turrets and mnm. What you think?
Well 2 hatch vs bio gets 3rd hatch at 3rd base so sim-city is harder, Savior got simcity up but he removed drones off gas so no constant mutas, But all in all, I think you only move out with vultures as the mutas arrive, so zerg needs some time to get defenses up (and still can't send drones to 3rd) and that's the critical timing where Terran is vulnerable (1 rax/1 fact + useless Vessel) If it's scouted earlier zerg can probably simcity at nat+ allin.
Not really sure if it's new or not, but I started seeing mineral-expo at CB being taken behind the minerals. What is the reason for this? Easier to defend? Or so that if one scans or sends an observer there, they won't see the cc? On the other hand, it takes workers longer to mine...
Most likely he was expecting high % of 9p on CB from hero. 2 gate in main is an easy way to get advantage over 9p. I don't think 2 gate will ever become standard again at high level unless there is a drastic change in maps to allow it. Of course some P can pull off 2 gate, but only with superior micro and multitask. 1 gate expand has taken 2 gate's place as the pressure > expand build.
On January 14 2017 16:18 shall_burn wrote: Not really sure if it's new or not, but I started seeing mineral-expo at CB being taken behind the minerals. What is the reason for this? Easier to defend? Or so that if one scans or sends an observer there, they won't see the cc? On the other hand, it takes workers longer to mine...
mostly terrans don't it isn't it. I think it's to do with avoiding being attacked from the high ground. tanks can also help out from the Base a bit easier. scan covers a large area and is not likely to miss it.
On January 17 2017 01:13 Andre wrote: I hope to see mass recalls one day, but also using the recalls on the army that has already been recalled--just before the other guy cleans it up.
Something akin to nada's 5(6?) location dropship play, except with recalls!
There was a game between Bisu and Flash @Cathrine or what's that carrier map called. Bisu used recalls quite extraordinary in that game. You might want to see that. Oh, here it is, I believe + Show Spoiler +
@HaFnium Also minerals look like some sort of wall for workers, and the CC is less exposed.