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Hi,
http://bwreplays.com/wyocg
How is this guy allowed to expand without units and be fine?
How many units can he throw away at me without accomplishing anything and still be fine?
How should i punish this in a way that does not involve a 20 min macro game?
If you only answer me macro better i'll get angry.
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First off, BM is not the way to improving.
But to the actual game: Your response to this DT opening in general was just very bad, there is not really a 1 base counter to a DT opening because of only having one scan. The best option is to do a defensive FD with low marine count (max 4 marines) and get an ebay (before cc if he got dt before range) and build one turret at your natural. And then you can do a timing push on 2 bases. Get Academy and vulture speed asap while adding factories and lay mines in front of his bridge. Until he gets obs he cannot clear mines for free. The best timing is usually to move out with your tanks to his natural before an obs will be out so that you are already set up at his bridge when he wants to move out. You should have enough scan energy to get rid of any stray DT's for your way to his natural where you then build turrets for a hard contain. But macro is of course something you should work on, you can only get so far with T at 130apm.
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+1 to what Cryoc said about the defensive FD- academy before CC at natural is very unnecessary. I like that you were trying to get more use out of the academy that you did make, but medics really only help your FD push against a regular dragoon opening since DTs one-shot marines, so it makes little sense to make them vs a DT expand. Firebats are equally useless in this situation (actually, in practically every situation in PvT).
Besides the initial attack, the second major mistake was lack of map control with mines + vultures runbys. This is good since a faster DT tech will delay the robo and result in all of the mine-clearing tools being slower than usual (i.e. obsever + obs speed, fewer dragoons, and delayed goon range). Your opponent didn't even make a robo the entire game- don't let him do that for free! Mines would have also given you vision of the counter-attack at your natural and delayed enough for you to set up a defensive position in time. Mines in your main/third at smart postions hardcounter recalls since he had no obs. In conclusion, laying mines is a really good skill toi have imo.
Finally, a relatively minor issue compared to the last two, but your vessels were quite late (your first vessel arrived when he already had 2 arbiters with recall on the way). 2 base arbiter is a common follow up to a DT expand, so a faster vessel is a good response. Playing more defensively with mines + turrets allows you to save scan so that you can check the main base for his arbiter tech timing and respond accordingly (also if he's not killing your mines with goons/obs, he's very likely skipping robo for a faster arb as he did in this game).
I'm not sure how much your game lagged, but I would advise simply not playing games that lag even slightly, since you'll be more likely to tilt if you lose (at least in my experience).
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On January 03 2017 08:28 TwiggyWan wrote:http://bwreplays.com/wyocg How the fuck is this guy allowed to expand without units and be fine? How many units can he throw away at me without accomplishing anything and still be fine? How should i punish this in a way that does not involve a fucking 20 min macro game? I swear to god if you only answer me macro better i'll get angry.
I think you should macro better.
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So, P can do 1 base DT, not build robo and go straight to 3 bases + zealot legs. That looks very easy to do...
you say 2 base timing push, 1 or 2 gas? When to push out and how many factories? Do I need upgrades at all?
Can 2 base timing push do anything at all vs zealot legs?
also what is the value of vulture runbys when there are cannons in each base?
I don't know how many years you guys spent playing, but I don't see any improvement in hand speed for several years now, some spent playing starcraft 2, others broodwar. So saying 'work on your macro' feels pretty dull to hear. Say if I played quake i'd have a dedicated training mode to work on specific weapon aim, but there is not that in starcraft.
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Versus DT Expand I would go 1 gas timing push with 1 machine shop because he will have a lot of zealots. And the timing depends on what you scouted, if he goes for a fast third for example I would already start to go off 2 facs and add more as I am containing and slow pushing him. If he stays on 2 base longer I would go up to 4-5 facs and push then. An armory would only delay your push so don't get one. It is important to be at his choke before arbiters are out, otherwise you are going to lose most likely. And a timing push can do a lot, because if he skipped observer entirely, he will always have to waste zealots for mines and to scout, plus he won't have good positioning to attack you because of lacking observers. You can use 1 scan to check his natural to see if a vulture runby is possible/attractive, so you don't waste them unnecessarily.
For me the increase in apm just came naturally by playing a lot against people being better than me most of the time. When I started on ICCUP I also only had 130apm. But after a couple of seasons with >500 games I had 200apm and then I started to play on fish and that increased my apm to 250. Maybe you play too little to improve naturally but you should always notice ingame that you forgot a depot or to build scvs or units and that is where you have to improve.
The dedicated training mode in BW is to play without opponent and just practice your build order to be correct. I did this a lot when I wanted to learn a new build order.
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You're not going to improve with this whining tone of yours.
Your BM is pathetic, if you don't want to play against someone with high latency then leave the game.
You waste small groups of units throughout the game, Terran gets exponentially stronger with bigger compositions.
Medic/marine/firebat, wtf are you thinking Bio is the worst vs Templar Tech of any kind.
Had you gotten vultures (with vulture speed which was really late for you) you could have denied 3rd and killed tons of probes in main and nat, he had 1 cannon each that were not even well positioned to defend his probes. Your nat cc was late and your SCV production was bad.
You send out a force to kill his 3rd without having any mines on the map to check for counter-attacks, when you scout his counter attack you build a bad wall instead of using the 5-6 vults in your nat to lay a big minefield before his units can hit.
At the moment I would question whether you could even have flawless Macro vs a CPU.
Try playing 1v1 computer and max out as fast as you can playing mech TvP, see how long it takes you.
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All right i will stick to FD builds and work on vulture control. Thanks for the feedback.
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On January 03 2017 13:11 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2017 08:28 TwiggyWan wrote:http://bwreplays.com/wyocg How the fuck is this guy allowed to expand without units and be fine? How many units can he throw away at me without accomplishing anything and still be fine? How should i punish this in a way that does not involve a fucking 20 min macro game? I swear to god if you only answer me macro better i'll get angry. I think you should macro better.
"I've got balls of steel"
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On January 03 2017 10:34 Cryoc wrote: First off, BM is not the way to improving.
But to the actual game: Your response to this DT opening in general was just very bad, there is not really a 1 base counter to a DT opening because of only having one scane.
did the meta shift so hard? I used to get raped by 2 Factory Vultures as counter to an early scouted DT rush right away. It doesn't neccessarily end the game, tho it has you contained and makes you lose units a lot.
Other than that and without seeing the replay, it sounds as if you didn't use any mines at all. Mind you, the upcoming paragraph isn't sound advise if you want to improve to the higher levels (C and beyond), but: especially on low levels Protoss does tend to suck a lot when it comes to clearing mine fields. Just use your initial Vultures to first secure the entry to your base (three mines are sufficient until a turret is up), afterwards a mine each close expansion (four mines for the obvious bases) and eventually arbitrarily use the rest of your first 5-8 Vultures to spam the main path ways. No way he can safely expand twice behind an ordinary DT opening with that. Unless you fuck up your macro or first attack big times :|
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I didn't watch the rep but ill talk in detail about fast 2 fact 2 machine shop vults before cc vs 1 gate dt expand as well as general tvp game management. @GeckoXp Nah no meta shift, 2 fact vult from 1 base completely crushes 1 gate dt expand if microed properly and given even player skill. I'd say its a hard counter to any scouted dt build. You want to get 2 facts up as fast as possible(preferably only making 1 marine). In general if you can wall a map you should do so especially if it can be done with 1 depot. This will help deny scouting and can be used to deny an early dt that somehow gets by from walking right into your main. It will also of course shut down a zealot pressure into fast dt build. Go 2 machine shops asap with speed first then mines(they will finish about the same time). Defend early goon pressure with 1-3 rines and one tank. Remember each marine you build will essentially delay your nat so only build additional marines if you need to.
Ideally you'll deny their scouting probe with your first rine(if the probe gets in make a quick 2nd rine and try to take the probe out before your 2nd fact goes down, also pull 2 scvs from gas to make the protoss think you are expanding and replace them when are confident the probe won't scout it) or with a wall in. Depending on your scouting, your first 2 vults will most likely put your first 3-6 mines guarding your nat. If the map has a very narrow choke where a single mine can cover all run bys then 3 should be enough. You should especially put them at your nat if you suspect a proxy gate or if he has done a low goon dt build(0-1) which will result in a very fast dt timing. Of course you don't want to place them too close together.
Pump pure vultures and rally to his nat, try not to lose any vults without laying all 3 mines and then go for probe kills. It is important to hit each goon with 2 vulture shots so the goon will die in 1 mine as you run up to engage. Best way to do this is run up with 1 vult and attack move then move command asap to fire once and put the vult right next to the goon, lay the mine, then fire the second shot and run. It's also important to concentrate mines near a ramp or other choke points near their natural/ramp to give you more access to weak areas(ie: maintain paths for run bys).
While you pump vults from 2 facts take your natural first then get your acad and go up to 4 fact then get your ebay and armory. If he has sent dts or units to clear mines at your own nat replace the mines. Use 1-2 of your vults to mine up the possible 3rd base locations to delay. Attempt to snipe probes on their way to the 3rd base locations.
Due to how many vults youre making you can delay the gas at your natural until you've started your 4th fact. You basically want to push out when he tries to take his third off your 4 facts while you take your 3rd yourself if you didn't finish him off early with your vults. The idea is to set up your push in a strong position while he has invested the maximum in economy and the minimum in units/gates. Set up at a safe distance from his nat and get your turrets up asap(most likely near the middle of the map ,closer to his base, but depends on the map). If he goes something like 6 gate arb(or gets templar ) off 2 bases then simply turtle to your 3rd base and wait until 2-1 and vessels(+EMP) to push out. Be sure to have your vults active in denying his third while you do this but even more importantly make sure they aren't out of position if the protoss attacks your tanks. Mines are key for maintaining map awareness and will keep the protoss busy clearing them.
Get your starport and time your second armory/sci facility to finish when your +1 is finishing. Youll have extra gas from pumping vults for so long early game so you can easily catch up on tank count and afford vessels. Making 1 dropship first is also an option because his observer count will be low but this is taxing on your multitasking. From there go up to 8-10+ fact(this depends on your macro skills, if you arent fast enough yet to keep everything building all the time compensate with extra facts) and stop scvs when you have a good number(ie your 3 bases wont gain much benefit from having additional scvs based on the mineral patches per base ~14 is a good number on a 8 mineral patch base for example) at each of your 3 bases.
If you didn't do good damage early do not over extend yourself. Use a solid slower push and prepare against arbiters(lay mines around your main with additional turrets, float your ebay and rax out to spot likely arbiter paths). This overall game plan will set you up for a win almost every time unless your opponent simply out classes you or you make a big mistake in the mid game.
*An alternative if you are confident you did good damage early on or your opponent is weak and you want to end the game early is to simply cut scvs at mild saturation(as early as 12 on a 8 mineral patch base) and go fast 5 fact off 2 bases. You can even skip turrets and go armory/acad with 4 gols mixed in. Do not waste scans early but instead bank them up for when you push out. Youll want to get your armory/acad early (before facting up) and at least 2 gols out asap when the armory is done to repel dt drops.
*Another early game counter variation is 1 rax cc- fact into ebay(cut scvs after cc for a faster fact , continue scvs after your ebay is started). This will give you a fast ebay timing 2 tanks out and a faster 2nd fact than 1 fact cc. It's important to position a floating rax at the nat over your turret so p cant snipe your turret down with the initial z/goon and dt. The second turret should be at the ramp (or near where your tanks will siege but closer to the middle to guard shuttle zealot drops on your tanks). A third turret at the main cc, you can cover this with an ebay for extra safety. After the 2 tanks with siege you can fact up and pump vultures to deny the third and pressure. This may be a better option in a very high latency game when you know your opponent isn't going early zealot pressure.
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1) ebay vs reaver/goon shuttle zealot drop 2) scan vs dt
if you lost your game because your turret was slow, it's probably the build order issue in that game. Also, try getting comsat station first and then ebay after you scanned your opponent's base(ordinary game flow like standard).
I didn't watch your rep, but my advice will help.
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On January 03 2017 08:28 TwiggyWan wrote:Hi, http://bwreplays.com/wyocg How is this guy allowed to expand without units and be fine? How many units can he throw away at me without accomplishing anything and still be fine? How should i punish this in a way that does not involve a 20 min macro game? If you only answer me macro better i'll get angry.
one base 2 fac vultures hard counters this strategy.
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