TvZ: 1 base tank push - Page 2
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Demurity
United States424 Posts
On April 12 2017 22:09 ortseam wrote: If he scouts 2 hatch muta, that's a good reason to not go for tank push (muta timing is 5:50-6:00) ... but you don't know that at 13 or 16 supply. You can't wait until you scout what your opponent is doing before executing a build, especially an aggro one. If you want to bust early tvz then you better be damn good at your build and not accumulating 400 minerals | ||
ninazerg
United States7290 Posts
On April 08 2017 04:03 Eridanus wrote: I never said I think that one should go 1 base by default. I think one should go into most TvZ's on most maps, vs random players, with the basic idea of going 1 or 2 rax expand, and adapt from there, but going for a quick tank build. One base plays should be reserved for when you do multiple games vs the same player, specific maps, or players you have reads on. Or for certain unorthodox games that had their initial flow of gameplay disrupted. Blindly going 2rax against random is not logical. This is something I would refer to as responding to an "imaginary threat", which is a trap many new players fall into. You know, that player who builds a ring of turrets around their whole base because they think, "Well, my opponent might be going air." This sort of akin to buying a new house, and then immediately investing 1,000 dollars into mouse-traps and other mouse counter-measures to get rid of the mice, and then find out the house is rodent-free. "There could have been mice." the buyer may say, and while they are technically correct in the sense that a rodent-infestation may have been possible, by simply taking the time to assess the situation in a logical manner, the poor 'investment' could have been avoided altogether. Here's how this applies to Brood War: In TvR, you have to think of certain possibilities. If our opponent is Terran, they might go proxy double barracks, or if our opponent is Protoss, they might go double gateways, or if our opponent is Zerg, they might go 9 pool or 5 pool. If one plans on going 2 rax no matter what, then that's fine and okay and stuff. But if their plan includes getting an expansion so they can afford a factory-mech army, or a big infantry force supported by tanks and vessels, then that player absolutely should ask themselves: "Should I delay my overall plan because of a threat that may or may not be real, or can I realistically defend against that threat with just one barracks?" So, you play someone who picks random on Matchpoint and you send an SCV to scout them out a little bit early, just to see what's happening in their neck of the woods. You go up to their base and see a nexus, but nothing else. Uh oh, proxy gateways. But because you're smart, you built a wall-off at your entrance. The only thing you need to check is if they built gateways IN your base. So you send one SCV, see that it's clear, so you know zealots are going to hit from the outside of your base. Then you defend that nonsense, send a vulture into his base, and voila, that noob paid the price for his lack of vision. By doing some simple scouting, and assessing the situation logically, you never had to make a second barracks. Am I saying that a second barracks is never needed? No. If you see a situation that warrants a second barracks, then build it. You might need it to get the marine numbers to stop zerglings from running into your base during a 5pool. In most cases, there will not be a need to EVER go 2rax expo. Some pre-2006 pros liked to go 2rax expo, but then people developed a better sense of the game's flow and realized that the second barracks was unnecessary. | ||
B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
I'm interested in what you will come up with, please report your results. Also at 16 supply it is very much possible to know what your opponent is doing if you scout him on first try. | ||
Eridanus
United States75 Posts
On April 13 2017 03:02 ninazerg wrote: Blindly going 2rax against random is not logical. This is something I would refer to as responding to an "imaginary threat", which is a trap many new players fall into. You know, that player who builds a ring of turrets around their whole base because they think, "Well, my opponent might be going air." This sort of akin to buying a new house, and then immediately investing 1,000 dollars into mouse-traps and other mouse counter-measures to get rid of the mice, and then find out the house is rodent-free. "There could have been mice." the buyer may say, and while they are technically correct in the sense that a rodent-infestation may have been possible, by simply taking the time to assess the situation in a logical manner, the poor 'investment' could have been avoided altogether. Here's how this applies to Brood War: In TvR, you have to think of certain possibilities. If our opponent is Terran, they might go proxy double barracks, or if our opponent is Protoss, they might go double gateways, or if our opponent is Zerg, they might go 9 pool or 5 pool. If one plans on going 2 rax no matter what, then that's fine and okay and stuff. But if their plan includes getting an expansion so they can afford a factory-mech army, or a big infantry force supported by tanks and vessels, then that player absolutely should ask themselves: "Should I delay my overall plan because of a threat that may or may not be real, or can I realistically defend against that threat with just one barracks?" So, you play someone who picks random on Matchpoint and you send an SCV to scout them out a little bit early, just to see what's happening in their neck of the woods. You go up to their base and see a nexus, but nothing else. Uh oh, proxy gateways. But because you're smart, you built a wall-off at your entrance. The only thing you need to check is if they built gateways IN your base. So you send one SCV, see that it's clear, so you know zealots are going to hit from the outside of your base. Then you defend that nonsense, send a vulture into his base, and voila, that noob paid the price for his lack of vision. By doing some simple scouting, and assessing the situation logically, you never had to make a second barracks. Am I saying that a second barracks is never needed? No. If you see a situation that warrants a second barracks, then build it. You might need it to get the marine numbers to stop zerglings from running into your base during a 5pool. In most cases, there will not be a need to EVER go 2rax expo. Some pre-2006 pros liked to go 2rax expo, but then people developed a better sense of the game's flow and realized that the second barracks was unnecessary. Two rax against random? I specifically mentioned one should consider both 1 and 2 rax before expand in TvZ vs a Z playing standard. Huh! | ||
Demurity
United States424 Posts
On April 13 2017 04:27 B-royal wrote: Actually Demurity I have tested both variations, 13 rax and 16 rax. Your tech is delayed or your barracks will be idling if you go for a 13 barracks. Investing in the early 13 barracks forces you to utilize the barracks, which is another 50 minerals you have to dedicate towards marine production every 15 seconds when you want to invest into an academy/factory/scvs. I'm interested in what you will come up with, please report your results. Also at 16 supply it is very much possible to know what your opponent is doing if you scout him on first try. I understand what you're saying, but one base play is very delicate. Yes tech may be delayed, but your push will be significantly more effective if you do it right. Your logic is saying: I can get my push out 30 seconds faster if I just delay my production facilities and gas, cut scvs, and cut marines. But at what cost? Yes, this is all conjecture for now, but I think you should be able to have a few extra marines and another tank my way. I'll get back to you when I finish my testing- I think I'll be able to do it today. At 16 supply yes, you can scout him on the first try. But like I said before, this doesn't change anything of your build if your only question is: do I go 2 rax build or 1 rax fe? If you scout 12h, then your push is viable. If you scout 9p, 2 rax will hold better than 1 rax fe will. And this still under the assumption you scout him first, which is unreliable. I'm not trying to bash you, just showing my logic process. | ||
Demurity
United States424 Posts
Your way hit adjacent enemy base at 5:45. 12 marine with stim, 2 medic, 1 tank with siege. My way hit adjacent enemy base at 5:00. 12 marine with stim, 2 medic, 1 tank with siege. Variant hit at 5:30. Was very sloppy, not really worth noting. Your way had significantly better econ (obviously, as you basically hold onto high amounts of minerals and dont cut scv). My way hit significantly earlier and required some scv cuts in small pockets. With 1 base timing, it's pretty risky to push at 5:45 as this build will easily fall to 2 base muta play. With good execution, maybe 5:30 timing can win outright. | ||
L_Master
United States7946 Posts
On April 14 2017 10:56 Demurity wrote: I did 3 trials. One your way, one mine, and another variation. I played against a CPU (just for build), so take the raw attack timings with a grain of salt, but it still is relative to each other. Your way hit adjacent enemy base at 5:45. 12 marine with stim, 2 medic, 1 tank with siege. My way hit adjacent enemy base at 5:00. 12 marine with stim, 2 medic, 1 tank with siege. Variant hit at 5:30. Was very sloppy, not really worth noting. Your way had significantly better econ (obviously, as you basically hold onto high amounts of minerals and dont cut scv). My way hit significantly earlier and required some scv cuts in small pockets. With 1 base timing, it's pretty risky to push at 5:45 as this build will easily fall to 2 base muta play. With good execution, maybe 5:30 timing can win outright. That's actually crazy difference. 45s from a rax three supply earlier. Difference between 5 and 545 is pretty huge | ||
AbstractDaddy
23 Posts
On April 14 2017 10:56 Demurity wrote: I did 3 trials. One your way, one mine, and another variation. I played against a CPU (just for build), so take the raw attack timings with a grain of salt, but it still is relative to each other. Your way hit adjacent enemy base at 5:45. 12 marine with stim, 2 medic, 1 tank with siege. My way hit adjacent enemy base at 5:00. 12 marine with stim, 2 medic, 1 tank with siege. Variant hit at 5:30. Was very sloppy, not really worth noting. Your way had significantly better econ (obviously, as you basically hold onto high amounts of minerals and dont cut scv). My way hit significantly earlier and required some scv cuts in small pockets. With 1 base timing, it's pretty risky to push at 5:45 as this build will easily fall to 2 base muta play. With good execution, maybe 5:30 timing can win outright. That's quite an early timing. Would you mind posting the build you converged on, and maybe a replay? Thanks. | ||
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
edit: plus all the old progamer replays I used to have on my old comp (1000+) used to do 10-12, back in the era of one base. | ||
L1ghtning
Sweden353 Posts
5:30-5:45 is realistic timings and early is not necessarily better. Even at the 5:45 timing you need to cut a lot of scv's. In my experience you will have to cut marines too, in order to get a push at 5 mins, or delay the second rax very long. I mean, my personal build aims at 5:40~ and I was initially going with a 13 rax, but I delayed it to 15-16 just like B-royal did, because I realized that I couldn't build marines constantly anyway. And you're saying that you can not only get a 13 rax while maintaining constant marine production, but also get all the supply, the gas, factory, academy, tank, siege mode and stim 40 seconds earlier than me. When I see it I will believe that it's possible. The point of this build is not to auto-win. Although that sometimes happens against greedy 3 hatch play, you can't rely on that to happen. Your main goal is to destroy the 2nd mining base and contain and then slowpush the rest. I have even won games when I failed to destroy the hatchery before the 3h mutas popped. What happens depends on what he throws at you. Flash did a similar build against GGPlay in the Daum OSL. But he started with a BBS and fake bunker rush, I think because he wanted to delay the gas timing and force some early sunkens. + Show Spoiler + For those who are interested in similar strategies. Back in around 2002, Sync and Boxer and maybe some other terran would do delayed variants on this strategy. Their builds looked more like a normal 2 rax tech build, they focused on getting a contain up outside the nat, ideally with a proxy factory, and then they pushed slowly. I have not tried this variant myself. While it's more economical the tanks are delayed. Sync vs 3 hatch muta+ Show Spoiler + Boxer vs 2 hatch muta+ Show Spoiler + | ||
Demurity
United States424 Posts
On April 17 2017 05:16 L1ghtning wrote: According to my experience with this strategy it's impossible to get a 12 marine 2 medic 1 tank push with siege mode and stim finished at 5:00. Just to get a tank out in time you need to go for regular mech timings, ie 11 rax 12 gas and factory immediately when you have 100 gas, I even think you have to delay the scv at 16 that puts you at 17, or the supply at 15. And you need 150 minerals for a second rax before that too. Forget 11 rax, 13 rax 13 gas. It's not fast enough. I assume you scout at 12 and you're playing on a normal map (not Python). 5:30-5:45 is realistic timings and early is not necessarily better. Even at the 5:45 timing you need to cut a lot of scv's. In my experience you will have to cut marines too, in order to get a push at 5 mins, or delay the second rax very long. I mean, my personal build aims at 5:40~ and I was initially going with a 13 rax, but I delayed it to 15-16 just like B-royal did, because I realized that I couldn't build marines constantly anyway. And you're saying that you can not only get a 13 rax while maintaining constant marine production, but also get all the supply, the gas, factory, academy, tank, siege mode and stim 40 seconds earlier than me. When I see it I will believe that it's possible. The point of this build is not to auto-win. Although that sometimes happens against greedy 3 hatch play, you can't rely on that to happen. Your main goal is to destroy the 2nd mining base and contain and then slowpush the rest. I have even won games when I failed to destroy the hatchery before the 3h mutas popped. What happens depends on what he throws at you. I'll dig up the replay. I'm pretty sure I skipped scouting, it just hurts econ too much too early. Don't even need to scout because of this build. 5:00 is the lowest bound by when you can attack. And no, I don't believe I constantly made marines. That significantly slows down when you can get your tank out. This build depends entirely on timing. I'd say the likelihood of failing if you don't reach zerg base by 6:00 is near certain if they go 3h muta. It will definitely fail if they go 2h muta. | ||
iFU.pauline
France1388 Posts
This is not the way to do 1 base mm tank push, let me show you a build order Boxer did massively while playing WGTour ages ago and it is deadly. here is the replay 1.16, keep in mind that you can build fact outside your base if you really want to be aggressive. This is not good to go out of your base with only one tank because zerg will see it and have more time to prepare because one tank is simply too slow to kill sunken, while if you push with 2, once you killed 2 sunken you can stim with marine the 2 others. at 5min45 second you go out with 12 marine 2 medic. You start siege mode upgrade at the same time you build your second tank, it will finish just when you are about to push zerg natural. The best way to take zerg by surprise is to wall, he will expect some cheesy vulture starport most likely while in fact.... kabooom This is boxer approved I did not invent it I recommend you test it, this build order is so strong it kills easily 2 hatch muta, the only way to deny that is to anticipate with mass ling or build sunken far in front of your natural to buy time. if you see 2 hatch muta then build engineering bay when you go out and bring 2 scv to build turrent if ever you get delayed with sunken. This bo is even better now coze most players won't expect it and I died a couple of times on fish because of it. replay bellow 1.16 http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=04316583931933266773 edit : this one is taking gas at 18 but you can take it earlier like 14 or 16, but with 18 you have a more optimal eco, also the timing is more like 5min45, usually the timing wants that you can stim on natural just before the muta come out for a 2 hatch build. | ||
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1388 Posts
On April 20 2017 00:24 Dazed_Spy wrote: You uploaded a zvp? ure right wrong replay i have to do it again, 1.16 this time brb edit : ok link is fixed | ||
Phyanketto
United States505 Posts
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Eridanus
United States75 Posts
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quirinus
Croatia2489 Posts
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Eridanus
United States75 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28256 Posts
One really cool thing you can do when pulling this off is to build your engbay offensively and then place it directly over the tank you have shelling down his sunkens, as quite often, you'll see zergs pick off the tank in two volleys because they need to buy more time. | ||
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