I open 12 hatch into mutas. Terran player does some sort of fast expand build. I fend off his bunker rush pretty easily, losing only one drone. I do some damage with my muta harass and keep most of them alive. Lose my first attempt at a 3rd, but wipe out his first few groups on the map with low losses and re-establish a 3rd. Everything's going great, right?
Except it isn't. No matter how the battles went, he was consistently ahead in supply. Even at my best, when i pushed back his M&M with my first group of lurker/ling/muta, he was still ahead by about 20 supply. After his 3rd got going and I lost my lurkers in a very stupid attack, that quickly went up to about a 50 supply lead, after which point it seemed pretty hopeless. I hung on for a while as he switched to mech, but you can skip the second half of the replay, it doesn't seem like there was much I could do at that point without him making some huge mistake.
It seems like it often happens this way.. I win some battles, I think I'm ahead, but then I later realize I was never ahead at all. On the other hand, if I lose the initial battles, then the Terran just a-moves into my natural and the game ends instantly.
My thoughts:
The bunker rush only killed one drone, but it did mess up my build order a little, and ultimately delay the muta harass. Is that why he was able to shut down my first attempt at a 3rd so easily?
I know my macro is pretty bad. At one point I was floating about 2000 minerals and 1000 gas. But he was too so... should have cancelled out?
What should I spend my money on in the midgame, after I have a group of lurkers, and before I have a 3rd gas? Seems like all i can get is a ton of lings that are hard to find a use for. I could get more drones but that would just give me even more minerals to pile up or waste on useless lings.
Speaking of bad macro, I know it took me way too long to get my expos mining after i finally got them built. But in this game, he was already way ahead on supply by that point. Maybe with better macro i could have made a comeback, but I'd like to know why I was so far behind in the first place.
I know the lurker attack on his 3rd at 14:00 was stupid. I guess wasn't expecting him to have so many siege tanks when it seemed like he was building marines all game up to that point. And I was frustrated that even though I sorta had map control, he was going to take an expansion right in front of me and there was nothing i could do about it.
I'm having fun using queens but maybe they're just a distraction. This is on bnet so there's no ladder but safe to say I'm low level.
- Losing one drone to kill an scv and two marines and get a bunker cancel is a really good trade. You did great on that! Losing two would have been less than ideal, but still not a disaster. Losing none *was* possible there and I believe you could have pulled it off.
- Making six lings is safe and not too big a deal. Making six lings and pulling a total of 8-9 drones where you held it fine with 5 drones was an overreaction. That's a decent little bit of mining time lost. WWJD (What Would Jaedong Do?) is a really good question here. He probably would have held it with the five drones and made 2-4 lings for scouting, seeing that no more marines were coming.
- You're a little slow on sending your drones to mine and you got hard supply blocked a few times.
- Since you and the Terran are both low-level players, it's better to not make the comparison between you and them. Like, how zerg is supposed to be behind in supply vs T. If your macro was on point, you would have been ahead in supply the whole game.
- You're using a good build order and doing well with it up to a point. Several things that need to be fixed: You need that third base hatchery starting at 35 supply, before mutas come out. The hydra den has to start sooner so you can have lurkers faster. When you see that small bio force move out, make lings and prepare to micro your mutas because that's what this build calls for. You need to stop the terran from reaching that 3rd until lurkers get there.
- Think about it this way: you know you need to be one base ahead of the terran, so that means that every minute you spend even on bases is another minute you're falling behind and will need to catch up.Getting that 3rd base up early and defending it with everything you have is important to winning, unless you're doing two base shenanigans (two hatch muta, lurker ling bust, etc.)
[Here's what I mean by defending with everything, delaying, etc: (Game 1)
Soulkey loses the game later, but he stays in the game because he kept the 3rd base up.
- Here's a snapshot of your base at 9:53 - 55/59 supply, 1699 minerals, 632 gas, 6 larvae being unused in your main, a queen's nest that has been up for a minute but you haven't started the hive, etc. At that same time, the terran is fully mining two bases, at 74 supply with 105 minerals and 514 gas. So, basically you're not spending down, you don't have enough hatcheries, and you're letting your larvae max.
1700 mins/ 600 gas translates to 6 mutas, 32 zerglings and 3 overlords added to your army, which would overrun the terran at their main. Remember when you see yourself floating so much money, that's an army you don't have that you could be using to win map control or even win the game.
I recommend practicing a build order over and over one day against the computer to make it automatic. You shouldn't ever have to think about what the next part of your build is - it should just feel like it's happening while you're playing the game.
You should start consume at around 11:00 - 11:30, and if you haven't fought much at all, you should be at about 100 supply. From there you're expanding, adding macro hatches, and going into ultra + ling + defiler.
On May 28 2017 11:00 Luddite wrote: What should I spend my money on in the midgame, after I have a group of lurkers, and before I have a 3rd gas? Seems like all i can get is a ton of lings that are hard to find a use for. I could get more drones but that would just give me even more minerals to pile up or waste on useless lings.
Can't watch replay, but the usual stuff is extra hatcheries and zerglingsor drones. Zerglings can never be useless, they are used for scouting, dropship defense, expo harrassment and you need them to complement lurkers. And if you don't like getting too many zerglings, get even more drones and add even more hatcheries, at expansions or macro ones.
And in general, Terran is ahead in supply for at least the first 15 minutes in an equal ZvT, especially if you are playing fast hive. If your supplies are even, that usually means you are winning the game (same applies to ZvP)
Thanks for the detailed analysis PntBttr! I really appreciate it.
I was going for the build order listed here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/3_Hatch_Muta_(vs._Terran) with the 13 pool varient. But you're right, my build gets messed up whenever I have to think about anything besides just building (ie, fighting off any kind of early harass) so I should practice more to get it automatic.
Regarding the 3rd base expo, do you really build it before the mutas? I would have thought that's too early. For one thing I wouldn't have any minerals to make it that early without delaying the 9 muta. And then I definitely couldn't defend it until the mutas are out.
If I see a small bio force out when I'm trying to get a 3rd up (before lurkers are ready), should I make lings and concentrate on wiping it out with mutaling, instead of trying to harass his main?
And, is it ok to leave the evo chamber as late as you say? I thought most people got it earlier, so it was ready if they needed to fight with lurker-ling in the mid game. I guess in general I just don't know what to do in the mid-game, whether to pump out lurkers and try to take map control, or just desparately tech to defilers as quickly as possible.
On May 29 2017 03:03 Luddite wrote: 1. Regarding the 3rd base expo, do you really build it before the mutas? I would have thought that's too early. For one thing I wouldn't have any minerals to make it that early without delaying the 9 muta. And then I definitely couldn't defend it until the mutas are out.
2. If I see a small bio force out when I'm trying to get a 3rd up (before lurkers are ready), should I make lings and concentrate on wiping it out with mutaling, instead of trying to harass his main?
3. And, is it ok to leave the evo chamber as late as you say? I thought most people got it earlier, so it was ready if they needed to fight with lurker-ling in the mid game. I guess in general I just don't know what to do in the mid-game, whether to pump out lurkers and try to take map control, or just desparately tech to defilers as quickly as possible.
2. You're flexible with the mobility of mutaling, against a small group I think you should save your 3rd. Against big amounts it might be better to backstab and sneak a 3rd elsewhere (you can still kill the ball but it requires very good micro
3.These are again two viable midgame routes. If you want big midgame lurkerling army get evo and +1 carapace (immediately after lurker aspect). Otherwise faster hive is better, you're not looking for big battles, just to survive until consume. You can start dual evo if you feel the upgrade is too late and want to catch up ( you might see progamers go queens nest before hydra den but this is too tricky imo)
Edit: That overlord speed is a bit too fast imo, you should get the crucial upgrades(adrenal, consume) and start thinking about it. It is very important if they switch to mech, but even then it should probably come later, like after consume and first defilers at least.
On May 29 2017 03:03 Luddite wrote: 1. Regarding the 3rd base expo, do you really build it before the mutas? I would have thought that's too early. For one thing I wouldn't have any minerals to make it that early without delaying the 9 muta. And then I definitely couldn't defend it until the mutas are out.
2. If I see a small bio force out when I'm trying to get a 3rd up (before lurkers are ready), should I make lings and concentrate on wiping it out with mutaling, instead of trying to harass his main?
3. And, is it ok to leave the evo chamber as late as you say? I thought most people got it earlier, so it was ready if they needed to fight with lurker-ling in the mid game. I guess in general I just don't know what to do in the mid-game, whether to pump out lurkers and try to take map control, or just desparately tech to defilers as quickly as possible.
2. You're flexible with the mobility of mutaling, against a small group I think you should save your 3rd. Against big amounts it might be better to backstab and sneak a 3rd elsewhere (you can still kill the ball but it requires very good micro
3.These are again two viable midgame routes. If you want big midgame lurkerling army get evo and +1 carapace (immediately after lurker aspect). Otherwise faster hive is better, you're not looking for big battles, just to survive until consume. You can start dual evo if you feel the upgrade is too late and want to catch up ( you might see progamers go queens nest before hydra den but this is too tricky imo)
Oh I thought of another question. Is it worth suiciding an overlord into the Terran's base at some point early on, to see his build (how many barracks, factory/starport, etc)? If so, what time should I do that, and where should i focus on scouting?
If there's something you don't know that you absolutely need to know going forward, it may be worth it. If not, you prob want to hold onto that ovie. I think it just depends on the game.
I was wrong about needing the 3rd started at 35. It's more of a thing you do if you're confident that a push isn't coming before mutas, and confident in your muta micro. If you can meet the marine pack out in the middle with mutaling and spend less on sunks, you can get that hatch earlier, but it doesn't need to be that fast. Before 55 supply is good.
Okay so, in answer to your specific question about that point where you went from about 20s down to 50+ down; you were at 75 supply going into the battle, terran was at 95. You then engaged with quite a few lurkers/lings, all of which died for minimal terran losses. During this battle, there was no macro on your end, so you dropped from 75 to 50 supply. Terran lost very little, and continued to macro, and thus was shortly at over 100 supply.
So the simple answer is a bad trade with all hatches idle.
In general:
-Your spire was fairly delayed, I realize you were bunker rushed, but you didn't make spire until 5:30. 4:50-5:10 is typical.
- 4 sunkens is crazy overkill for what he has. You need perhaps two, if that. He has 9 marines and 3 medics. - Possibly contributing to the problem is that you had only two drones on gaz at the natural, this happened around 6:25 when you pulled some drones to try and block an scv one of those drones was a gas drone that never got replaced. Gas is everything in ZvT, so this mistake is a big deal.
- You put down Queens Nest + Hydra den at the same time, with hydra den not being made till 500 gas. That's a big delay on your lurkers, and 15 can be more than everything against 5 rax +1. That's 15s faster you can be morphing lurkers at the third. You then wait a full 45 seconds to start getting lurker upgrade. This makes it totally impossible to defend your third, and you now stand a real risk of outright dying to MM at your natural. 2-3 groups of MM will shred through some muta and 4 sunks like nothing, even with JD level muta micro.
-You do alright with the mutas in some respects, but it doesn't seem like you quite have a gameplan. The focus really needs to be on that third gas. You harass with the mutas, but do nothing to stop his MM group from going straight to deny the third. Against +1 4 or 5 rax you need muta ling, and you need to focus on getting your third up. Terran is more than happy to give up a few depots and some scvs in exchange for your third.
-You've had your queens nest for like 3 minutes and there is still no hive. In fact hive doesn't come for another 4 minutes, until the 14:00 minute mark. You can't do much against a terran without hive tech past the earlier stages of the game, especially with just 2 gas.
-It takes almost 2 minutes for you to do anything with your completed third. You've already been delayed, and you can probably feel how painfully gas starved you are. Drones should have been transferred and a gas made at the third immediately. This is the other reason you're now so behind terran, it's 14:30 in the game and Terran is rolling off three saturated bases, and you don't even have a third operational.
-You got a super late hive, and once you got it made no defiler mound and no nydus to your third. It's totally defenseless, and terran easily kills it.
-It's now 20:00 and you have two bases against terran's 5, plus zero hive tech of any sort. The small disadvantages and mistakes have piled up into a position it's impossible to win from.
The biggest takeaways is probably timings.
Make sure they are crisp. If you're going to play "standard" you absolutely need to have the hydra den going down the second you've got your 9 muta making, and lurker started the second the den is finished. 3 Hydra should head immediately to the third. Queens nest should follow quickly, usually right after the first few lurkers are morphed, and defiler mound + nydus should immediately follow that.
I guess in general I just don't know what to do in the mid-game, whether to pump out lurkers and try to take map control, or just desparately tech to defilers as quickly as possible.
This is largely stylistic, but also depends a little on the situation. Teching quick to defilers is more technical, but is arguably more powerful and flexible, hence it's dominance at KR progamer level. There is nothing wrong with a large lurker/ling midgame, focused on wiping out terran's army. Either style of play it's vital you secure a third, and even with lurker ling you will still need to go to hive within reasonably time, probably around when you kill terran's first serious push.
With lurker ling, if Terran gets a decent size army it becomes vital you flank. If you don't he will just run away and spread, easily killing a cntrl group of lurkers and some lings.
- You're using a good build order and doing well with it up to a point. Several things that need to be fixed: You need that third base hatchery starting at 35 supply, before mutas come out. The hydra den has to start sooner so you can have lurkers faster. When you see that small bio force move out, make lings and prepare to micro your mutas because that's what this build calls for. You need to stop the terran from reaching that 3rd until lurkers get there.
- Think about it this way: you know you need to be one base ahead of the terran, so that means that every minute you spend even on bases is another minute you're falling behind and will need to catch up.Getting that 3rd base up early and defending it with everything you have is important to winning, unless you're doing two base shenanigans (two hatch muta, lurker ling bust, etc.)
I disagree with putting down third base at 35 supply. This is game flow dependent. Larva often makes a late third base and he still beats FlaSh, Last, Sea despite that.
But what I saw in one game (IIRC vs. FlaSh) is in cross spawns he placed an early third hatchery in one corner, and hid a drone in another corner. When FlaSh went to kill the first third, he delayed with mutas, but eventually had to back off and cancel it and immediately start it in another corner. His hydralisks were ALREADY on the way to the other corner, because he knew he would be forced to cancel!
So you can definitely throw down a hydralisk den (after initial mutas) before your third, it's definitely allowed and definitely works for high level players.
On May 28 2017 16:39 PntBttr wrote: 12 - Hatch Expo @ Nat 11 - Pool 14 - Hatch Macro 15 - Extractor 100g - Lair 23 - Extractor 100g - Ling Speed
This is not the current build. Pool can go down between 11 and 13, depending on rush distances. But pros get macro hatches at 13, not 14. Followed immediately by 12 gas. Then you still get extractor at around 23, but the timing is right as you start zergling speed, the next 50 minerals go into extractor.
Note that you can get away with queens nest before hydra den if you are confident you can hold your third. This is maybe possible vs. a 2 rax tech build, but not so much vs. 5 rax. But if you think you can pull it off, it's an excellent thing to do. It lets you get that nydus to your third that much faster, which protects it from drops. It also lets you get swarm up to protect your bases from tank pushes.
Evo chamber timing is gameflow dependent as well. Older 9 minute push styles call for a fast +1, mass lurker, late hive. Current meta (+1 5 rax) calls for a fast hive, double evos. It's not a matter of style, it's a matter of what fits the current game situation.
Thanks for watching the replay and giving me detailed feedback, L_Master. You seem like you know a lot more than me, so I definitely appreciate the advice. However, I disagree with some of what you wrote about this replay.
On May 29 2017 13:27 L_Master wrote: Okay so, in answer to your specific question about that point where you went from about 20s down to 50+ down; you were at 75 supply going into the battle, terran was at 95. You then engaged with quite a few lurkers/lings, all of which died for minimal terran losses. During this battle, there was no macro on your end, so you dropped from 75 to 50 supply. Terran lost very little, and continued to macro, and thus was shortly at over 100 supply.
So the simple answer is a bad trade with all hatches idle.
There was a series of small battles. at 7:00, i had 49 to to his 56 supply. Mutas are building. Nice and even! at 9:25, I had 57 supply to his 77. Engaged with muta/ling/hydra (planning to morph them into lurker but didn't have the upgrade yet). I lost 2 muta, he lost 7 marines and two medics. at 10:20, I had 59 he had 77. Engaged with muta/ling. I lost 2 muta 2 lings 1 overlord, he lost 5 marines 1 medic. 11:25, 66 to 85 supply. Engaged with muta/lurker/ling/queen. I lost 2 lings, he lost 5 marines 2 medics. 11:44, 65 to 83 supply. Engaged with muta/lurker/ling. I lost 2 muta 8 lings, he lost 9 marines 1 medic. 12:55, 73 to 92 supply. He irradiates a lurker, my remaining two mutas stupidly fly after the sci vessel and die. 13:28, 66 to 106 supply. Engaged with lurker/ling/queen. I lost 6 lings, he lost 9 marines 2 medics. Followup loses 6 lings for nothing.
and then i'm down 56 to 95 supply.
Grand total: 24 lings, 8 muta, 1 lurker, 1 overlord to 35 marines, 8 medics. I lost 28 supply, he lost 34 43 I lost 1625 minerals, 925 gas (mostly mutas that i didn't much need any more). He lost 2150 minerals, 200 gas.
Shows I guess the difference in supply cost between zerg and terran units.
Now, I do admit that my hatches were idle during those engagements, and of course that's bad. Maybe I just didn't realize *how* bad it was. I'll try to do better at macroing during battles in the future. But, I don't think it's fair to say that all my lurker/ling died for minimal terran losses.
Of course after that i lost all my lurkers for nothing in a very badly planned attack on his expo, and that's when things really started to go south for me.
On May 29 2017 13:27 L_Master wrote: -Your spire was fairly delayed, I realize you were bunker rushed, but you didn't make spire until 5:30. 4:50-5:10 is typical.
Why was it delayed so much? Seems like most terrans I play are super well prepared for my mutas by the time they hit, so maybe i'm doing something wrong. I thought my spire timing was actually pretty good in this game. Lost about 25 seconds from mining the extractor while i was dealing with the bunker rush, but the rest of the timings seemed faily crisp up until i got mutas.
- 4 sunkens is crazy overkill for what he has. You need perhaps two, if that. He has 9 marines and 3 medics.
Well yeah, with the benefit of a replay I can see that. In game, all i could see was that he was doing some sort of bio build, hidden behind a bunker, and he was in close position. I've lost too many games from terrans sprinting over with stimmed marines before I have time to build any defenses. I know you're supposed to skimp on defense as much as possible, but I figure with my bad multitasking it's better to be safe than sorry. If i'd only built 2, for all I knew he could have come in 20 seconds later with 20 +1 armor marines before I had time to build any more.
- Possibly contributing to the problem is that you had only two drones on gaz at the natural, this happened around 6:25 when you pulled some drones to try and block an scv one of those drones was a gas drone that never got replaced. Gas is everything in ZvT, so this mistake is a big deal.
THANK YOU this is a really good catch. I knew my expansions were too late, but even so it seemed like i was super short on gas in this game. This explains why.
- You put down Queens Nest + Hydra den at the same time, with hydra den not being made till 500 gas. That's a big delay on your lurkers, and 15 can be more than everything against 5 rax +1. That's 15s faster you can be morphing lurkers at the third. You then wait a full 45 seconds to start getting lurker upgrade. This makes it totally impossible to defend your third, and you now stand a real risk of outright dying to MM at your natural. 2-3 groups of MM will shred through some muta and 4 sunks like nothing, even with JD level muta micro.
I'm intentionally doing Queens Nest and Hydra Den at the same time. Seems like ensnare + lurkers is a potent combination, or at least it's fun. But you're right, i should have made the hydra den sooner. It's just hard to keep the build order tight when I feel like all my mutas will die instantly if i take my eyes off them for a second.
-You do alright with the mutas in some respects, but it doesn't seem like you quite have a gameplan. The focus really needs to be on that third gas. You harass with the mutas, but do nothing to stop his MM group from going straight to deny the third. Against +1 4 or 5 rax you need muta ling, and you need to focus on getting your third up. Terran is more than happy to give up a few depots and some scvs in exchange for your third.
-You've had your queens nest for like 3 minutes and there is still no hive. In fact hive doesn't come for another 4 minutes, until the 14:00 minute mark. You can't do much against a terran without hive tech past the earlier stages of the game, especially with just 2 gas.
-It takes almost 2 minutes for you to do anything with your completed third. You've already been delayed, and you can probably feel how painfully gas starved you are. Drones should have been transferred and a gas made at the third immediately. This is the other reason you're now so behind terran, it's 14:30 in the game and Terran is rolling off three saturated bases, and you don't even have a third operational.
Yeah that was really bad macro on my part. I didn't know to transfer drones to the 3rd base though.
-You got a super late hive, and once you got it made no defiler mound and no nydus to your third. It's totally defenseless, and terran easily kills it.
Yep, no excuses here either
-It's now 20:00 and you have two bases against terran's 5, plus zero hive tech of any sort. The small disadvantages and mistakes have piled up into a position it's impossible to win from.
Agreed. That's why I'm focusing on the mid-game... I'd like to avoid falling behind at all, instead of trying to make epic comebacks after digging myself into a hole.
The biggest takeaways is probably timings.
Make sure they are crisp. If you're going to play "standard" you absolutely need to have the hydra den going down the second you've got your 9 muta making, and lurker started the second the den is finished. 3 Hydra should head immediately to the third. Queens nest should follow quickly, usually right after the first few lurkers are morphed, and defiler mound + nydus should immediately follow that.
Guess I just need to learn how to keep building my base while also doing muta micro. Do you just expect to be down ~20 supply at this phase of the game though? (assuming standard play and no big mistakes on either side)
This is largely stylistic, but also depends a little on the situation. Teching quick to defilers is more technical, but is arguably more powerful and flexible, hence it's dominance at KR progamer level. There is nothing wrong with a large lurker/ling midgame, focused on wiping out terran's army. Either style of play it's vital you secure a third, and even with lurker ling you will still need to go to hive within reasonably time, probably around when you kill terran's first serious push.
With lurker ling, if Terran gets a decent size army it becomes vital you flank. If you don't he will just run away and spread, easily killing a cntrl group of lurkers and some lings.
I think the large lurker/ling midgame is more what I would like to do. Maybe it's not as good at the progamer level but uhhh I doubt I'll ever get there. Thanks for explaining the two different styles though.
I guess the biggest takeaway is that I just need to concentrate more on macro, and especially on continuing to macro during battles.
On May 28 2017 16:39 PntBttr wrote: 12 - Hatch Expo @ Nat 11 - Pool 14 - Hatch Macro 15 - Extractor 100g - Lair 23 - Extractor 100g - Ling Speed
This is not the current build. Pool can go down between 11 and 13, depending on rush distances. But pros get macro hatches at 13, not 14. Followed immediately by 12 gas. Then you still get extractor at around 23, but the timing is right as you start zergling speed, the next 50 minerals go into extractor.
[B]On May 29 2017 16:45 iopq wrote:[/B Evo chamber timing is gameflow dependent as well. Older 9 minute push styles call for a fast +1, mass lurker, late hive. Current meta (+1 5 rax) calls for a fast hive, double evos. It's not a matter of style, it's a matter of what fits the current game situation.
Is the thinking that if they're going +1 5 rax, there's just no way to fight that with lair tech so your only hope is hive tech? I have a hard time using defilers when I don't have map control. It seems like I often get into situations like this:
(1) Terran is camped outside my natural or expo (2) Yay I have a defiler! Dark swarm bitch! (3) He moves his army back slightly, Taking minor (if any) damage from the lings i sent into the dark swarm. (4) He kills the defiler with irradiate.
In programer VODs, it seems like one dark swarm is enough to make them run away, but I guess that's because they're a lot better at using it than I am...
2. Is the thinking that if they're going +1 5 rax, there's just no way to fight that with lair tech so your only hope is hive tech? I have a hard time using defilers when I don't have map control.
1. 13 hatch 12 gas has the fastest timings (not only mutas, but also den and hive since these things are built with triggers, e.g. builds den immediately after first 9 mutas, queens nest after den/lurker aspect). The later gas/hatch would obviously give you more econ(drones) so you can sunken up more comfortably (against 2 rax acad). Note that back in the 1 base Terran days, like 2006 where they needed more and faster sunkens, gas timings were usually between 16 and 18 (when i say comfortably, I mean being able to sunken up while still using your larva, otherwise the 3 hatch build fails)
2. The problem is, in order to fight with lair tech you need fast saturation for your 3rd to get enough units*, saturating your 3rd against 5rax is much harder than holding it. Progamers usually drone up their 3rd with nydus these days. Defilers are great in this situation, you don't need map control to use them, they are best used for direct defense. It doesn't mean it's easy, you need to keep replenishing them in time (as well as your lurkers) and keep the vessel count down. It's actually easier for Terran to fight defilers in the middle. *another big problem is the very fast 1/1 marines, but in order to counteract that you have to cut corners in your early game, like chamber after lair. Can still try to experiment with this
On May 29 2017 20:56 ortseam wrote: 2. The problem is, in order to fight with lair tech you need fast saturation for your 3rd to get enough units*, saturating your 3rd against 5rax is much harder than holding it. Progamers usually drone up their 3rd with nydus these days. Defilers are great in this situation, you don't need map control to use them, they are best used for direct defense. It doesn't mean it's easy, you need to keep replenishing them in time (as well as your lurkers) and keep the vessel count down. It's actually easier for Terran to fight defilers in the middle. *another big problem is the very fast 1/1 marines, but in order to counteract that you have to cut corners in your early game, like chamber after lair. Can still try to experiment with this
Thanks for the explanation on build timings, I'll give 13 hatch/12 gas a try and see how that goes.
Do you have any micro tips on using Defilers for base defense? I think I get the general principle (consume, dark swarm on their army and simultaneously run in lings) but I can never get the lings to do enough damage if the Terran is at all competent. Should send lurkers in too I suppose, although that's yet another thing I have to delicately micro all at the same time.
On May 28 2017 16:39 PntBttr wrote: - Losing one drone to kill an scv and two marines and get a bunker cancel is a really good trade. You did great on that! Losing two would have been less than ideal, but still not a disaster. Losing none *was* possible there and I believe you could have pulled it off.
- Making six lings is safe and not too big a deal. Making six lings and pulling a total of 8-9 drones where you held it fine with 5 drones was an overreaction. That's a decent little bit of mining time lost. WWJD (What Would Jaedong Do?) is a really good question here. He probably would have held it with the five drones and made 2-4 lings for scouting, seeing that no more marines were coming.
- You're a little slow on sending your drones to mine and you got hard supply blocked a few times.
- Since you and the Terran are both low-level players, it's better to not make the comparison between you and them. Like, how zerg is supposed to be behind in supply vs T. If your macro was on point, you would have been ahead in supply the whole game.
- You're using a good build order and doing well with it up to a point. Several things that need to be fixed: You need that third base hatchery starting at 35 supply, before mutas come out. The hydra den has to start sooner so you can have lurkers faster. When you see that small bio force move out, make lings and prepare to micro your mutas because that's what this build calls for. You need to stop the terran from reaching that 3rd until lurkers get there.
- Think about it this way: you know you need to be one base ahead of the terran, so that means that every minute you spend even on bases is another minute you're falling behind and will need to catch up.Getting that 3rd base up early and defending it with everything you have is important to winning, unless you're doing two base shenanigans (two hatch muta, lurker ling bust, etc.)
[Here's what I mean by defending with everything, delaying, etc: (Game 1)
Soulkey loses the game later, but he stays in the game because he kept the 3rd base up.
- Here's a snapshot of your base at 9:53 - 55/59 supply, 1699 minerals, 632 gas, 6 larvae being unused in your main, a queen's nest that has been up for a minute but you haven't started the hive, etc. At that same time, the terran is fully mining two bases, at 74 supply with 105 minerals and 514 gas. So, basically you're not spending down, you don't have enough hatcheries, and you're letting your larvae max.
1700 mins/ 600 gas translates to 6 mutas, 32 zerglings and 3 overlords added to your army, which would overrun the terran at their main. Remember when you see yourself floating so much money, that's an army you don't have that you could be using to win map control or even win the game.
I recommend practicing a build order over and over one day against the computer to make it automatic. You shouldn't ever have to think about what the next part of your build is - it should just feel like it's happening while you're playing the game.
You should start consume at around 11:00 - 11:30, and if you haven't fought much at all, you should be at about 100 supply. From there you're expanding, adding macro hatches, and going into ultra + ling + defiler.
Didnt read everything but the b.o of 3h muta is wrong. People alrdy started playing 12 gas becuz of att1 5rax.
12h 13p 13h 12 gas If you cannot start morphing 9muta at 6:00, theres something wrong.