In addition, Zerglings are sometimes burrowed in the enemy natural expansion, in order to prevent them from building a Nexus in a spot that allows efficient mining. Used against a Terran expanding early, a Zergling or Drone burrowed in the Terran's natural expansion can force a Terran to construct a Missile Turret or waste a scan (which would otherwise be used for gathering intel) before optimally placing the Command Center.
Since Terran Fast Expand builds are the "default" build, how much does this impact the Terran? How much mining time is lost if they are forced to wait for scans/missile turrets to land their CC in the optimal spot?
Can a Zerg take a third base while this is happening?
The zerg can then transition into whatever tech they desire, depending on the map/their playstyle. I use a 9pool speed build and replace the speed upgrade with the burrow upgrade. Then I like to go for slow lurker drops as a follow up, and abuse the fact they have less scans to work with due to scanning their natural. But that probably isn't optimal, and a more macro approach would probably come out ahead.
Has this ever been tried in a pro game (the blocking nat CC with burrow early)? Anyone else here have success with it?
It would do terrible against 1-base terran builds, obviously. But is it worth it if we know the terran will FE 85% of the time? (depending on the map, of course). A wall-in outside the natural like on Andromeda would prevent the burrow block from occurring. However if you're feeling aggressive, you can attack the wall-in with your initial lings while rallying more to the choke, and burrow lings as they get to low health. When reinforcements arrive, unburrow and renew your attacks on the wall. The terran would have to pull quite a few SCVs from the line to prevent you from breaking through. I haven't had a chance to live this scenario, but it sounds like fun to me.
You lose more eco/timing than terran doing this. Regular high ground expand with quick 2 rax aca gives quick scans and forces z to either ling all in or sunken a lot (with already weak economy)
On May 29 2017 15:13 kogeT wrote: You lose more eco/timing than terran doing this. Regular high ground expand with quick 2 rax aca gives quick scans and forces z to either ling all in or sunken a lot (with already weak economy)
if you already went 9 pool, could you get burrow in after Lair, but before speed? You're delaying speed, but your opponent can't know this, so they won't push out until medics/firebats
I use a 9pool speed build and replace the speed upgrade with the burrow upgrade. Then I like to go for slow lurker drops as a follow up, and abuse the fact they have less scans to work with due to scanning their natural. But that probably isn't optimal, and a more macro approach would probably come out ahead.
Optimal... :>
Anyone else here have success with it?
No.
Can a Zerg take a third base while this is happening?
Yes. You can take as many bases as you want. Will you defend them? No. Will you win? No.
Wrong question ^^
But is it worth it if we know the terran will FE 85% of the time?
I think that if you go 9p burrow, your eco is poor so terran is just fine to stay on one base a bit longer. So you're may be forcing him to change his original plan, sure, but it's not putting you ahead.
If you're investing that much in early burrow and speedlings, I think it would make more sense to try and set up an ambush and kill his first marines or backstab into the main, instead of just slightly slowing down his expansion.
The longer answer, echoing some other people already in this thread, is that you're doing more damage to yourself than the T. Effectively you are trading a lot of eco damage to yourself by not building drones and an expansion for a gimmick with marginal benefit. 1 base terran builds are more than viable, while 1 base zerg builds basically are not. By rushing to burrow with lings in time to block a natural expansion would be doing way too much damage to yourself while possibly delaying the T from doing something he may not want to do anyway for a relatively short amount of time. And even if T does plan on expanding and you successfully block it, Terran can just add another rax or two and bust your natural because you'll be so far behind.
As for pros who might have done something like this, nothing comes to mind although ZerO used to screw around with burrow and such in ZvTs iirc. He's your best bet for creative burrow play, if that's what you're looking for.
On May 30 2017 14:25 puppykiller wrote: I played a z on fish who went burrow before pool and blocked my nat, and I thought the map was bugged and left. It seemed decent xD
Burrowed zerglings could be useful at the amateur level in ZvT.
At the pro level, burrow is useless if Terran knows you have it. That's pretty difficult because Flash knows that you have burrow just from looking at your zergling movements and what you don't have. There is a timing when Terran's marine force first moves out into the center. Burrow is essentially a gamble to catch the Terran unawares and clean up that first marine force. You need to know Terran's movements and also be somewhat good at enticing the Terran into walking into an ambush.
ZerO said that burrow is not recommended unless you want to get a big advantage from it at some risk. Besides the obvious opportunity costs, the other reason for this has to do with the mechanics of managing large forces that include lurkers. It is more difficult to do so if burrow has been researched. That doesn't mean burrow is bad. It's pretty good when it works.
That said, getting burrow mainly to block the nat cc is probably not a good plan.
On May 31 2017 01:18 lemmata wrote: Burrowed zerglings could be useful at the amateur level in ZvT.
At the pro level, burrow is useless if Terran knows you have it. That's pretty difficult because Flash knows that you have burrow just from looking at your zergling movements and what you don't have. There is a timing when Terran's marine force first moves out into the center. Burrow is essentially a gamble to catch the Terran unawares and clean up that first marine force. You need to know Terran's movements and also be somewhat good at enticing the Terran into walking into an ambush.
ZerO said that burrow is not recommended unless you want to get a big advantage from it at some risk. Besides the obvious opportunity costs, the other reason for this has to do with the mechanics of managing large forces that include lurkers. It is more difficult to do so if burrow has been researched. That doesn't mean burrow is bad. It's pretty good when it works.
That said, getting burrow mainly to block the nat cc is probably not a good plan.
Yeah it's great at low levels if the Terran doesn't know you have it.
At D or low C levels, I love to burrow lings outside my natural for the first Terran push. C- Terrans love to try to bust sunkens and if they don't scan you pretty much auto-win.
But if they know you have it or scan the hidden lings you are in a lot of trouble.
It's gimmicky but it works great at low levels. I think burrow is something you should research anyway for the late game because it's such a good counter to sci vessels.
There is no better feeling in the world then when a Terran stims and rushes your sunkens and then you unburrow lings right behind him. You probably can never do it twice to the same opponent though. And again I'm a C level baddie so better Terrans probably won't fall for it.
On May 30 2017 11:22 LaStScan wrote: It was ok as a strategy in the past, but people are so much better that its not even worth to go 9p burrow now.
Should check out ForGG vs HerO FS. Hero did 9p burrow into macro game.
Awesome, this is exactly what I hoped to find, the build being used in a progame. I found it on youtube!
What's interesting is ForGG let's out a big sigh after being forced to land his CC in a non-optimal spot and rush for a comsat, lol.
If you don't get zergling speed, and then proceed to go for Lair, it wouldn't set you behind economically any more than a 9pool speed build. Which can transition into a macro game.
HerO goes to make his 2nd hatch right after his initial 6 lings come out. When the SCV scouts the zerg, it LOOKS exactly like a 9pool speed build. Which means the terran will need to defend his ramp carefully, and won't move down his ramp without sufficient marine numbers. HerO then places his third hatch in a weird spot, so when the Terran does scan his base it looks like a 2hatch all-in build.
Basically, HerO did all he could to make the Terran have a less optimal economy. Burrows 3 lings in the natural to make him place his CC in a terrible spot. It makes him rush for comsat, which we know, Terrans want to delay the comsat as much as possible to produce more SCVs earlier. HerO then places his 3rd hatch in an obscure spot, where the terran probably won't see it with a scan, and will spend more money on bunkers and defenses preparing for an all-in attack.
HerO then sets up a Lurker contain, with all the wasted bunker and turret money from ForGG just sitting there. Behind his lurker contain he sets up his 3rd gas and gets dark swarm, so he's more than ready for the terran push when it comes.
It would be interesting to see how this would fair against a modern mech transition build. This pro game is from back when zerg had an easier time (but not always easy, obvs) winning after reaching hive tech.
But you're right, LaStScan. The top terran pros of today probably wouldn't fall for this. Flash can smell a hidden hatchery by looking at how many drones and zerglings you have. 300/50 = 6 drones or 12 zerglings that should be on the map, but aren't. HerO was vulnerable for a moment before his lurkers hatched, he was banking on the terran being scared and passive and it payed off really well.
don't let anyone tell you what u can and can't do... if you like this strategy use it a lot, and find the sweet spot where you can actually pull it off as your standart ZvT, won't be easy, but is doable.
Not at all. Simple as that.... Of course you're welcome to do it, do whatever you would like. But don't expect to win unless you're against a very weak player.
I saw a post above me talking about 9 pool speed in zvt able to "transition into macro game". If you're going 9 pool speed and you dont do a large amount of damage to terran you are WAYYYY behind. It's just not a viable opening on the pro level. That being said go ahead and try it on low levels if you want to, people make mistakes all the time.
I'd like to point out that ForGG misplayed that game for sure( and was still pretty much even with Z. Thus...not a viable build. He didn't lose his rines early because hes a good terran but he could've adapted much more efficiently once he knew that the cc spot was blocked. Most top Terrans by now have figured out the optimal response and always end up ahead.
On June 06 2017 14:34 XenOsky- wrote: don't let anyone tell you what u can and can't do... if you like this strategy use it a lot, and find the sweet spot where you can actually pull it off as your standart ZvT, won't be easy, but is doable.
I know you're trying to be encouraging but this is simply bad advice. You're just setting him up for failure as he gets past the lowest skill levels. You simply will not have the macro you need to compete against T unless they make a big mistake early game (as in moving out blind against a speedling build...a good player would never do this).
On top of that on a lot of maps you can cover your cc placement with one bunker on the low ground (guarded from the ramp). This is basically a hard counter unless the z attempts to suicide his lings in hopes of getting one to burrow in time. The T can just cancel his scv/rine and get an early acad. Theyll be significantly ahead.