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As a Protoss player I thought I'd chip in with my 2 cents...
I think what is really important against any decent protoss is scouting. Obviously I will be able to scout you early - and unless I fuck up, you shouldn't be able to kill my probe until ling speed. As soon as you have ling speed make sure you get my probe (check the corners as well for a hiding probe) and then have your ling somewhere around my natural to make sure I don't get to scout you.
From toss perspective scouting is everything. If you do this right, the first time I'll be able to get a sense of you gameplan is with my first sair - in case you are aggressive this might even be too late... in case you go for a 3 hatch, 1gas hydra bust.
I would say what's really important to take away from this is:
- have a game plan. even if it's "defend until late game" to play a macro game. sometimes you will have to adjust, but go into a match with a defined strat. - try hard to keep the protoss in the dark. zerg will be the aggressor or at least dictate the speed of the game in the majority of cases. if I don't know what you're doing until sair, I most likely have to delay a lot of my timings to be safe.
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On June 21 2017 23:52 L_Master wrote: You kinda do. If all three morph at once then you're 99.9% expecting 6 lings, unless zerg is being on hell of a greedy little sucker.
Fine, then just morph one pair of lings, then select the other two larvae and morph two more pairs, then if the Protoss doesn't build a cannon in time go run by.
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On June 22 2017 00:44 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2017 23:52 L_Master wrote: You kinda do. If all three morph at once then you're 99.9% expecting 6 lings, unless zerg is being on hell of a greedy little sucker.
Fine, then just morph one pair of lings, then select the other two larvae and morph two more pairs, then if the Protoss doesn't build a cannon in time go run by.
I did say that right after the part you quoted, just that I never see zergs actually do so :D
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On June 22 2017 01:09 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2017 00:44 iopq wrote:On June 21 2017 23:52 L_Master wrote: You kinda do. If all three morph at once then you're 99.9% expecting 6 lings, unless zerg is being on hell of a greedy little sucker.
Fine, then just morph one pair of lings, then select the other two larvae and morph two more pairs, then if the Protoss doesn't build a cannon in time go run by. I did say that right after the part you quoted, just that I never see zergs actually do so :D well, if you throw down hatch before lings, you end up squeezing lings out one by one anyway because you don't have 150 minerals exactly
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Ok so since I posted my replays my winrate in ZvP went way up, and it wasn't even so hard. It turned out that i misunderstood the build. I always knew that the standard macro play was 5 hatch hydra, but somehow never heard of 5 hatch before gas. When I got it right I started demolishing almost every protoss on EU bnet, and now since i'm getting enough stuff to actually fight I can actually micro my units correctly and snipe HTs and obs. I have only one question left, how to react when toss decides to be agressive and sends like ~5 first zealots splitting them across my expansions? I instantly make lings when i see him move out, but often I wont't have much larva so I have to use drones to defend. So I lose mining time, I lose lings, which could be drones, and if the toss has really good micro I'll just gg out after losing many, many drones.
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when you reach about 25 supply, make a few extra lings up to 27, that's usually the timing when Protoss sends 4 zealots out - if you saved the initial 6 lings that would put you to 10 lings - you can't kill 4 zealots with them (especially if he microes), but if he actually commits to moving out you can probably get a few more out while he's walking and you'll be fine
I usually still go 3 hatch spire for scourge and potential muta if I feel like it - some Protoss players will make an annoying super fast speedlot attack before I am set up to defend with hydra. I've been hit with a +1 speedlot rush (AFTER one corsair) at 7:15 before which totally messed up my economy.
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On June 22 2017 03:53 iopq wrote: when you reach about 25 supply, make a few extra lings up to 27, that's usually the timing when Protoss sends 4 zealots out - if you saved the initial 6 lings that would put you to 10 lings - you can't kill 4 zealots with them (especially if he microes), but if he actually commits to moving out you can probably get a few more out while he's walking and you'll be fine
What do you do if he doesn't move out? I feel like they can move out almost at any time, with any number of zealots (although that might just be because I'm playing against noobs who don't have a polished build order). How many zerglings do you need to make if he hasn't pushed out yet and you can't see his army?
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with 3 hatch spire vs FFE, you start with few lings, protoss harasses with 1-3 zealots, you constantly have so many lings, that if he "commits" his harass, you can make enough to kill the zealot. after that, your ling speed should finish and protoss should stop the zeal harass, until he has a 2nd cannon in nat and zeal speed/+1. in that time, you dont make any more lings, place your speedlings outside his nat and drone only. build order wise you get 3 hatch spire, 4th and 5th hatch and if he start movng out with zealots again (because of 2nd cannon/zealspeed/+1) you defend it with sunkens and/or your 2nd step unit (muta/lurker/hydra), depending on what build/style you want to play.
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-You started with a really aggressive opening with lots lings so the burden is on you to deal damage with them and you did great! Got a few probes, forced a cannon in his main, delayed his nexus, and held off his harassment yourself.
-Your natural lacked any sort of sim city which would've been useful for holding off pure zealot comps.
-Whenever Protoss attacks, he's gonna expand. You held off the attack with Hydras to spare so those could have been pocket speedlings used to deny him the expansion and force him to allocate part of his army to guard it.
-So you made your 4th and 5th hatch in your main but they are spread really far apart for some reason. Keep them compact and Shift + F2 them. Then you can allocate your number hotkeys on the remaining hatcheries. Your late game macro should look something like: 5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh0sh F2-(click)sh (click)sh (click)sh.
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On June 22 2017 01:09 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2017 00:44 iopq wrote:On June 21 2017 23:52 L_Master wrote: You kinda do. If all three morph at once then you're 99.9% expecting 6 lings, unless zerg is being on hell of a greedy little sucker.
Fine, then just morph one pair of lings, then select the other two larvae and morph two more pairs, then if the Protoss doesn't build a cannon in time go run by. I did say that right after the part you quoted, just that I never see zergs actually do so :D well, I never see toss skip the cannon either. )
To Luddite: vs 12 hatch if toss does not want to go cannon rush, they can also just cancel the forge and go nexus and gateway before rebuilding it. This of course requires scouting after first pylon and sending second probe right when you scouted empty base with your first scout.
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