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with regards to noticing what is "missing"when it comes to scouting, ie the mentioned missing gas means X.. that comes from an understanding of the matchup, often on both sides. If you are hung up on maximized build orders, check out a few of the most common Z ones, study those for a few days and thats how you become to know what to look for when scouting as P. It's a shit ton of work, and often just massing games with P you begin to interalize these things on your own (especially timings like when surprise mutas are actually possible, etc) but playing Z too will help a lot.
Thats why people give the advice of playing random or at least the race you are weakest vs.. cause you see it from their side, and see what makes them weak vs your race. I personally used to struggle with PvT a lot, but I can't play T at all, even on a basic level. The next best thing (for a oldschooler like me trying to get back into it) is watching lots of TvP matchups from pros, it gives me an idea of what gives these T's problems (timing wise, composition wise or strategy wise) and helps with my ideas in PvT.
I don't know what MMR / "iccup level" you are at, you seem to imply relatively low (no offense if not) - so at this time, my recommendation to getting better is just massing games on matchmaking, follow a basic build order from TL, nothing complicated, and work on your macro/micro/overall game. When you lose, watch the replay quickly and try to point out A) Why you lost / where it "started" to go bad and B) What you could have done in this game to not have that happen again - but the mass playing and just getting comfortable is the key IMO to improving to competitive shape - following the simple rules of macro (try to never go above ~500 minerals at any time, try to boost your APM over +50 higher than your average, etc)
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As a Protoss who played almost exclusively 1 base builds for a couple of years recently, I can tell you straight up that they are fun, you will win some gimmicky games against some low level Zerg, but if you truly want to improve and have a better chance against higher level Zergs, making your 2 base play (off of FFE or 1 Gate expand) solid is paramount. After a certain skill level, 1 base tech plays will simply not work unless you have stronger multitask than your opponent, so your fear of multitask being a barrier of entry actually becomes even more pressing off of 1 base IMO. 1 base Zealot all-ins are countered pretty easily at higher levels as well.
In short, I think you should commit yourself to playing with conventional ways (but as others said, some flexibility in your BO is okay). You will lose more at first, but every game can add to your knowledge of how the match-up should work, which means you will be better prepared later to win.
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1 base build is hard, but try making proxy gate 9/10 (pylon 8 middle of map for example) and win early with your zealots, it will teach you stuff about the early after you win a few times you could go back to mixing this with other more standard less risky builds, one of them 2 gates @main, or 2 gates@nat (not easy), or 1gate@main or 1gate@nat etc many follow ups forge or cyber, expo or tech if you make gate@main yes if you have only 1 gate you can cover Z rushes with blocking ramp with zealots, but depending on what Z does you might need to add a goon there, probes, a shield battery, or a canon whatever mix depending if you make pylon @nat, the big advantage is you have more possible follow ups, because it will be less costly to expand earlier. However if you make pylon@main, it will cost you less to defend if you want to tech faster, so it has the best tech follow ups. And you need some techs to be able to attack the Z efficiently after he has sunkens.
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Ok, first of all, once again thank you so much for the many and detailled replies, it's really amazing to see how much help and Support you get here as a bad Player.
I've read everything, including the 2 articles Gecko linked, and I (think I) understood everything too. Yet, reading all of your replies opened up some more questions, and REopened an earlier one. Bear with me if I don't directly Quote or link you, I have read it all in one go so can't remember who said some Things exactly.
First of all, I still read a lot of conflicting opinions on wether or not going for Multitasking-heavy builds is a good Thing or not. I'll just have to take Bisu and his "Neo Bisu Build" (+1 Sair/Speedlot) as an example again, because he's propably the most well known. As I mentioned earlier what scared me away from the build first, was the amount of Multitasking that's needed to execute it properly. Now in this thread, on the one Hand I read Things like "just Play it anyways, it's the best way of learning it, even though you will fail a lot early" (which I generally agree with 100%), but on the other Hand I also read Things like "Bisu has such a mechanical and Micro-oriented playstyle that it's almost impossible to duplicate"... which I also kinda agree with x)
Then a bit later I read "Just pick any build order that you like, and practise the shit out of it", after which I thought "ok, lets the take the most Standard build for PvZ then and practise that, which would be Neo Bisu", and 2 Posts later I read that despite what it says on Liquipedia, the Neo Bisu Build isn't even the most Standard PvZ build in the pro Scene anymore?
Like... I understand that there are as many opinions as there are humans on the planet, and that's a good Thing But maybe some Kind of Consensus on Things like These would help me A LOT right now.
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Also, for the guy who asked about my ICCup rank, I havent played on their ladder at all. I played the original BW when it got released, but I was still more or less a kid back then (9 years old), so I only played vs AI and never took it serious. I just now picked it up again 1-2 months before Remastered got released, so don't worry, you can treat me like a complete noob x) I understand the Basic concepts, thanks to articles like the one in the Matchup Guides, Build orders or the one Gecko wrote, but it seems like there's that Little missing Piece of the puzzle that's needed to take the step from bad to average.
Edit: Also I noticed that my autocorrect program for some reason changes the capitalization of letters in a really weird way that is definitely not Standard English, so please ignore that
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10387 Posts
Let's see if I remember this correctly ..
+1 sair/speedlot was unique in that it allowed protoss to hit a +1 timing that kept the zerg's economy in check, while allowing protoss to amass a sair fleet that would give protoss air control and scouting. Before this, it was sort of one or the other: builds like Sair/DT and Sair/Reaver gave Protoss air control, but gave up a solid ground army presence for a while. As zergs got better, they made their defenses more efficient, and came out way ahead if they suffered little to no damage. +1 speedlot builds were strong, but often skimped on sairs in favor for either a stronger timing attack or archons, and were thus extremely susceptible to mutalisk strategies.
So +1 sair/speedlot sort of combines the best of both worlds, and sets up the Protoss very well into the midgame. I think the greatest benefits of this build is that it allows Protoss to continually check in on what Zerg is doing, while effectively neutralizing Mutalisk play. However, this build requires that Zerg is playing a standard 3/4 base 5/6 hatch build; I wouldn't advocate using the build in other scenarios like 3-6 hatch late lair hydralisk play. It is a build specifically tailored against standard play.
I think it's important to understand the logic of a build, since PvZ is a very reactive matchup, where Protoss has to constantly adjust their build to what the Zerg is doing. If I see late lair, then I usually skimp on corsairs for a bit and go for a stronger +1 timing. And honestly, if your multitasking skills arent quite up to par, I would recommend doing something a bit simpler, like 4 gate 2 archon, or the Jangbi +1 speedlot into double stargate. You'll probably learn the flow of the match up better that way, and unless you're playing against very good players, any build can work if you make the right tactical and strategical choices.
When your understanding of the game gets better, along with your mechanics, then I would recommend to use +1 sair/speedlot so that you can take advantage of all the scouting information while keeping on top of base management and army control.
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10387 Posts
Stork has been on the record saying that the problem with 1 base builds in PvZ is that they're so much more volatile than FE builds .. there are so many more variables at play, and so many more coin flips with 1 base play, so it requires a lot of experience and some luck in order to be successful with it.
Also, I am reading some people advocating for playing without a build order .. I think that's terrible advice. Build orders are the fastest way to learn the game; when you copy a build order, you are essentially taking a shortcut through the hours of research and experience it took to make that build. I feel like that advice is coming from a place where people have followed builds blindly without really understanding why or what to do .. of course, that is not good. But that doesn't mean you should disregard exact builds entirely. The best way is to find a good build to follow, but to also try to understand why the build is constructed as such, and how to adapt the build if things go awry.
One example I can think of is in PvT, the simplest of builds, 1 gate core: 8 Pylon, 10 gate, 12 gas, 13 core. But if you play, you'll notice that you have enough money to build gas at 11, so why 12 instead of 11? Because if you build gas at 11, then you'll end up with a lot more gas than you need, and less minerals than you'd like. You could waste hours playing like that, wondering why you don't have quite enough money to continually produce probes/goons/pylons/etc for the first 5 minutes of the game, perhaps dying to a few early pushes and cheeses, or fall very behind in the later game. Or you could follow the build, take the shortcut, win some more games than you would otherwise, and learn the lesson that the build provides.
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1) The general early-to-midgame speedlot/sair aggression plan off of the "Neo Bisu Build" doesn't REQUIRE super good multitasking any more than other aggressive flexible builds of the same kind (e.g.: TvZ 5rax). The idea is to be annoying with the upgraded sairs/speedlots (and potential 2 DTs if you're feeling that way) and threaten a huge setback on maps with a weak 3rd base. The harassment comes at a time where the Zerg does not yet have a big enough army (or optimal drones at third) and wants to delay or slightly slow down the pace of the game until he has the 2+ groups of hydras + lurkers that he needs to deal with the emerging goon/zeal/HT + (archon) army while Z techs to something else (and keep P from noticing that and setting up a faster third on his own via minimal ling harassment). Of course, the Z also doesn't want to just spam colonies in response because that's minerals not going to drones/hydras.
IMO it's fine to practice the build in order to learn through repeated experiences what you have to do from early-midgame onwards in the PvZ MU, esp with responding to Z's attempts to slowly set up a strong line of hydra-lurkers to confine you to a section of the map while the Z just does whatever he wants with his econ. This obviously isn't as easy as it looks because if your storms aren't very good or if your zealots are slightly late to the party (or way too early) during engagements and you lose out you essentially end up giving Z a free road to hive tech -> ultras. These midgame decisions and keeping up mechanically are the most important things, not the build order (although understanding its idea is also important).
2) The idea of the FFE into +1 stuff PvZ meta is (as I implied before) a threat to the Z (and their 3rd base) before they can really set up clumps of hydras everywhere. If you go through JD's refined 5 hatch hydra build, you'll see that the build is very very tight - it's essentially 4 lings into nothing but macro until lair + some time after. That doesn't toss can just commit to doing early aggression off of FFE b/c hatchery production, but P obviously has to try and do something before the Z's macro explodes off of 5 hatcheries and 3 bases/gases (that is, Z is now able to keep up constant hydra production while squeezing out bits of lurkers/upgrades/hive tech; he can also boost drones/ovies, save gas, and set up for 11 mutas). You could say that P could maybe set up their own 3rd real quick but that's pretty dangerous because either they have to sacrifice templar tech (which P needs to combat production off of 5/6 hatch) or they cut defense/other stuff a lot and become susceptible to earlier ling/hydra aggression or busts. Overall, it's more of a back-and-forth kind of thing based upon how aggressive the P is with his initial lots/sairs OR if the Z decides to really go for some funky hydra bust timing.
3) FFE builds are weaker vs early ling rushes (strength obv map/scouting-dependent) b/c of the timings of the forge/expansion setups (no gate/zealot until later). 1-base tech discussions (especially when they get scouted out early by Z) are a bit funky, so it's hard to discuss that in parallel with FFE. But I would advise against 1base teching as a crutch since good players will know how to set up a minimum amount of earlier hydras (or even lurkers) to confine you in your base and then set up anti-shuttle measures. It also doesn't give you the experience and ideas of the midgame/lategame standard PvZ you need to master the MU and prevent it from becoming a coinflip (now and later on).
Hope this helps.
EDIT: Also listen to Arvick. I only make meme BOs.
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On August 24 2017 04:42 SartPls wrote: Ok, first of all, once again thank you so much for the many and detailled replies, it's really amazing to see how much help and Support you get here as a bad Player.
I've read everything, including the 2 articles Gecko linked, and I (think I) understood everything too. Yet, reading all of your replies opened up some more questions, and REopened an earlier one.
The short answer is: Stop theorycrafting right now and get to gaming. Play a full session of games, take a break and analyse them later. Repeat this circle twice - play session followed by analysing session. Then go and re-read or research different builds. With every play - analyse - re-read you get a better understanding of the game. With analysis in this paragraph I mostly refer to standard problems, such as forgetting pylons or not adding tech/infrastructures. This alone goes a very, very long way. You probably stop with this fundamentals once you hit a rank you're good enough to compete in the better tournaments, and even then you shouldn't stop.
Now for the long answer.
You get caught in a trap a lot of people do. Teamliquid is really obsessed with Build Orders, especially with "playing like the Koreans". This is bullcrap for beginners, as it's way too much information you can possibly handle as of now.
Obviously, it's good advice when you want to get from "decent foreigner" to "very good foreigner" and even more important once you want to be "elite foreigner". However, learn to walk before you run.
In Brood War almost no hard counter exists, therefore Build Orders on lower levels mean jack shit. There are tons of softening factors, the most pivotal one being the mechanical limit you have right now. Understanding every detail of a match up requires tons of knowledge, you can ignore for the start. And start means a quite high ranking, a ranking so high many posters here won't understand.
I believe Jealous did do some really in-depth analysis of somewhat good games, and even in those it showed that nearly no "very good" foreigner plays flawless. Almost nobody on this page could follow an elite guide to the very letter, or if they do, adapt in the most perfect matter.
What I tried to express in my "other basics" guide was that Build Orders are nearly always not performed well by any skilled foreigner, except for the very best. Therefore, the first five minutes of a game matter a lot more than you might think, as this is the time span you can manage. What comes afterwards is an abstract idea to you and it should remain this for a long while. Therefore, simply having a rough idea what to do next is perfectly fine. Instead, try to get a feel for hard carved timings, that indicate what you can and can not do. For instance: try to get a feeling when you have to start to get Zealot Speed and when +1 to have them both finish somewhat at the same time. Try to figure how long it takes for a Zerg to hit you full face with his 3 Hatch Hydra Bust.
At first your intentions will take you to a stage you handle all-ins well, then you'll learn about potential mid-game transitions and, to be perfectly honest, I don't know how long it will take you to understand any match up to the very late stages. I never got there, but was good enough with the basic ideas and only somewhat flawed Build Order execution to participate in BWCL 1 and hit something around C+/B- with Toss and C with all races before the beta. It really is enough.
If you still worry you might learn the very wrong things, start to ask in the strat forums with examples of your play. We have some A- (+++) ranked players responding and giving in-depth analysis. But really: As long as you screw up the basics, such as having 4 Gates until the late game, you are fine with my approach.
It's a quite long road and you shouldn't worry about having the right book knowledge, as it only carries you so far. Book knowledge helps you to understand the rough ideas, but not more. If you follow "reading before playing" too much, you'll end up advancig quite slowly.
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Most important thing is find a build that you like and break it down into components.
For me my build order in Terran vs Protoss means I want to get
A factory Tank and Marine for defense Another Command Center Engineering Bay and Turret for detection and anti shuttle Another Factory and Vultures and Vulture research An Armory for upgrades, Academy for Scanner Third Command Center and More factories
My plan is to defend, take another base, get vultures with mines and speed on the map, take another base and build more factories and then more units.
My build helps me optimize my plan by having a number of steps I want to get to. I can optimize my build with timings on the "food" (44/52 supply for example), or use other things like time stamp or how many tanks I have.
The most important thing is the overall gameplan. The build only helps me follow this plan! You should always be trying to remember and follow your plan! And that means following the order of things that occur in your build! If you get lost or your build is no longer inexact, if you simply remember what's next in your build and what's next in your gameplan you'll get where you want to go.
Choose a PLAN that you want! Maybe you want to KILL Zerg with zealots okay then find a BUILD that will help you get there. Anything will do but just make sure that you are always remember what your goal is! WE CAN ALWAYS CHANGE THE BUILD but it's so important that you do not become fixated on A build. We can do a different one to match the same goals or change your goals vs zerg!
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The game plays completely differently at low levels of play. Use a build order that compensates for your faults and slowly work new things into your gameplay. You might discover new little tricks that help you (and maybe only you) win. SCBW is about style.
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To answer your worry about the lack of consensus in some of these things and your desire for its presence, I have to tell you that you sadly won't get one on certain topics. This is due to multiple reasons that I won't get into, but the fundamental issue is that everyone got better through different avenues, with the most universal overlap being straight up practice/grinding games and then self-analysis. For example, some people say to learn the builds and strategies first, while others will say to work on mechanics first. Phone dying, will post some relevant links later.
EDIT: Ver's "How to Improve" guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/stet_tcl/How_to_Improve_by_Ver.pdf
What Gecko was talking about in relation to me, my video where I analyze PvZ build orders. This could be useful for you in how to analyze pro reps and your own play and to see the process of learning through watching with purpose:
Click me.
Here is a high level Protoss foreigner discussing his play and strategies with me in each MU:
Click me too.
As I said above, everyone has their own path to success and it is okay to cater to your own style/limitations at first, but eventually you will have to tackle your deficiencies head on if you want to make it to the next plateau. For me, I first just played however I felt like it until I hit a wall, then I learned 1-2 builds for each MU and learned how to react to certain aggressive builds from my opponents through reading the forums/liquipedia/watching the pros, then I hit one mechanical wall after another, all of which I overcame by pushing myself to play faster than I was comfortable with until it became comfortable. The most essential part of all of this is continuously playing and practicing with the intent of getting better, otherwise your progress will be slow even in the lower levels.
Everyone's journey is different, and to best help us help YOU is to assess what your next step is based on what you're trying to improve and then people can give you more solid advice. Generally posting reps is preferred. Good luck, have fun!
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Ok, sorry for the late Reply, but I had to give this some Long thought, and also tried some stuff ingame.
MASSIVE thanks to arvick, ymir and gecko again, those answers were more or less exactly what I was looking for and also really well written.
Now in the end I was kinda pressing myself into drawing a conclusion out of all this help, so right now my idea was to do the following Things:
- Keep a Basic "Skeleton build" of FFE into +1 Speedlots asap
- Improve my early game scouting to spot stuff that +1 Speedlots can't handle (2 Base Lurker/2 Base Muta for example), and if scouted, delay the +1 Speedlot attack to adapt to my opponents build by weaving in 2 Stargates or Robo+Observatory tech respectively
- Should I be able to execute the +1 Speedlot Timing attack (should be around 6:30 if I'm not wrong?) without having to weave in counter-tech, but my Opponent survives the attack, I take a 3rd base
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Does that Sound like a reasonable base to practise the MU off?
Also, another smaller questions: If I don't find my Opponent on the first try, the Liquid guides advice me to prepare 2 cannons (basically assuming 9 pool) in my natural. But if I do that, it will delay my build order in a way that my army moves out roughly 30 seconds later than it would if I go Nexus first. Do I miss an important window by doing so?
Once again, thank you all so much for your Patience with me x)
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On August 24 2017 09:06 Jealous wrote:To answer your worry about the lack of consensus in some of these things and your desire for its presence, I have to tell you that you sadly won't get one on certain topics. This is due to multiple reasons that I won't get into, but the fundamental issue is that everyone got better through different avenues, with the most universal overlap being straight up practice/grinding games and then self-analysis. For example, some people say to learn the builds and strategies first, while others will say to work on mechanics first. Phone dying, will post some relevant links later. EDIT: Ver's "How to Improve" guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/stet_tcl/How_to_Improve_by_Ver.pdfWhat Gecko was talking about in relation to me, my video where I analyze PvZ build orders. This could be useful for you in how to analyze pro reps and your own play and to see the process of learning through watching with purpose: Click me.Here is a high level Protoss foreigner discussing his play and strategies with me in each MU: Click me too.As I said above, everyone has their own path to success and it is okay to cater to your own style/limitations at first, but eventually you will have to tackle your deficiencies head on if you want to make it to the next plateau. For me, I first just played however I felt like it until I hit a wall, then I learned 1-2 builds for each MU and learned how to react to certain aggressive builds from my opponents through reading the forums/liquipedia/watching the pros, then I hit one mechanical wall after another, all of which I overcame by pushing myself to play faster than I was comfortable with until it became comfortable. The most essential part of all of this is continuously playing and practicing with the intent of getting better, otherwise your progress will be slow even in the lower levels. Everyone's journey is different, and to best help us help YOU is to assess what your next step is based on what you're trying to improve and then people can give you more solid advice. Generally posting reps is preferred. Good luck, have fun!
Just now saw your Edits. My brain is a bit mashed atm, so I'll go to sleep, but I'll check out those links tomorrow, and thanks a lot already!
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On August 24 2017 09:43 SartPls wrote: Does that Sound like a reasonable base to practise the MU off? Yes, but I would amend it to say that you should consider expanding WHILE you do your +1 Zealot attack. During this time you should have map control and aggression - will be hard for Zerg to deny. As you said though, this is situational.
Also, another smaller questions: If I don't find my Opponent on the first try, the Liquid guides advice me to prepare 2 cannons (basically assuming 9 pool) in my natural. But if I do that, it will delay my build order in a way that my army moves out roughly 30 seconds later than it would if I go Nexus first. Do I miss an important window by doing so?
Once again, thank you all so much for your Patience with me x) It's better to be safe and late than sorry. Me personally, I double-scout on 4 player maps by doing 8 Pylon -> Probe scout, 10 Forge -> Probe scout. On Ladder, Zergs cheese. I played ladder at my friend's house and I've not seen a single Hatch-first build, so double scouting on ladder is not a bad idea IMO. At least you will never auto-lose to anything or be blindsided.
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Dragoon+Reaver is still a thing though.
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On August 24 2017 10:10 StarscreamG1 wrote: Dragoon+Reaver is still a thing though. Haven't seen anyone do this at a competitive level in years. Care to share?
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On August 24 2017 10:11 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2017 10:10 StarscreamG1 wrote: Dragoon+Reaver is still a thing though. Haven't seen anyone do this at a competitive level in years. Care to share? They did it at StarCraft Remastered Launch Event and ret and artosis said that they still see some guys using it at top level. Not for ASL level, but still viable for most of us.
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On August 24 2017 10:18 StarscreamG1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2017 10:11 Jealous wrote:On August 24 2017 10:10 StarscreamG1 wrote: Dragoon+Reaver is still a thing though. Haven't seen anyone do this at a competitive level in years. Care to share? They did it at StarCraft Remastered Launch Event and ret and artosis said that they still see some guys using it at top level. Not for ASL level, but still viable for most of us. Oh for sure. I do enjoy that style a lot, although I think a major portion of its success at lower levels is due to people not knowing how to react haha. I was asking more in the hopes of seeing some recent VODs. Haven't had time to check out the SCR event, now doubly excited for it! Thanks.
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@Jealous: Had a busy day, so still didn't get around to watch your links. FeelsBadMan. It's not forgotten though!
Also hey, Keep the discussion going guys, I'd be happy to read more what everyone thinks about varying build orders
Quick question too: You mentioned a thread where I can upload replays and top Players critizise them, did I get that right? And if yes, would you mind sharing a link?
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Last but not least: Is there any legit way I can beat a Terran army in an open fight without 600 apm rofl? It seems like there's just way too many Things to do at the same time... Minedragging with Zealots, Goon Micro, Stasis the backline the Tanks, Shuttle Micro to drop HTs in the back and Storm, etc. etc.
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1 base play is cheese. Watch any pro game ZvP they will always either forge fast expand or 1 gate fast expand. It's meta. 1 base is gimmicky cheese.
Tbh I'd advise playing zerg and if not at least Terran. Toss is for scrubs
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