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Hey guys,
I'm rather new to Brood War and have been trying to find build orders and just in General, a playstyle that works for me on the ladder, specifically for the PvZ matchup, but have some more questions:
1) From reading the PvZ build orders, guides and some Forum Posts here, it seems like the General Consensus in modern Brood War is that the Neo Bisu Build is the most "Standard" way to Play PvZ. Now what Kind of intimidates me from running it, is the description that it Needs really good Multitasking and that poorly performed Micro or macro will make it lose even vs the Zerg builds that it's supposed to soft Counter. Is there any Major advice that People could give me about this? Should I practise other build orders first, and Switch back to the Neo Bisu build when I'm comfortable enough? Or do I just go through Trial & error with the build until I "git gud"?
2) In the Explanation of the Neo Bisu Build order it says that the build order was created because 3 Base Spire into 5 Hatch Hydra rendered the "original" Bisu build ineffective, and that it's the best answer People found to that build... but if I read the 3 Base Spire into 5 Hatch Hydra article, it says that this build soft Counters the Neo Bisu Build? Is one of those Statements wrong, or did I misunderstand something?
3) The Forge Fast Expansion article says that "multiple Zerg all-ins were created to soft Counter this" and prevent/delay an early Expansion by Zergling rushes or Hydra busts. This again confused me, because it seems to imply FFE builds were weaker to early all-ins than 1 base builds. I wonder how this works exactly, because for example None of the 1 base tech builds described in the PvZ build articles have cannons or a Forge early?
Aka if I Play a 1 base tech build, do I wall off my main's ramp with the early Gate etc., in a similar way that I would wall off my Natural in FFE? Or do I rely on the Zealot at 13 to defend my base from Zergling Rushes?
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From what I understood, the "only" or at least MAIN reason why FFE builds are considered Standard, is because it allows you to get a better economy to not fall behind vs macro-oriented Zerg builds, while still being RELATIVELY safe vs early Aggression. Now on low mmr macro oriented Zerg builds seem really rare, so would it be a better Option in my Situation to Focus on 1 base tech builds instead?
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Already thanks for your replies, and I hope those questions weren't TOO idiotic or that I overlooked something that's obvious for others. Looking Forward to the answers
Sart
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1) i would not concentrate on a "buildorder" as much as a basic plan (see below, mainly go units go expand go harras go kill) build orders are complex but u mainly need to have a baisc concept first, and a fast expand normaly means u are not in charge and its easier for weaker zergs to play vs you
2)there are no really hard counters in the game so everything is more or less a soft counter, but if u change a build and dont be "standard" alot of zergs have more problems because they cant read ur timings in their notebook of "protoss standard timings"
3)if you go fast expansion, you normaly have problems scouting so a 2hatch bust a ling bust a hydra bust is often scouted later then when u have units u can attack him with, and if u scout a bust late, and have no canons ... ur dead, and if u overmake canons and he build drones ,,, ur faaar behind. thats why i try a 1gate pressure expand which is newby friendlier
some ideas: i am only on like 1750 elo but maybe that helps if ur new so far i am unbeaten in pvz.
i have basicly no builds in any matchup i just go for a 1 or 2gate pressure with alot of zealots and a probe starting harras alot at the start so this guy can never drone up to much, when i see he has alot of lings i fall back and in the meantime i did nexus forge at natural and then building a canon there so he cant counterattack instant.
i take gas go stargate corsair then because i am shit vs mutas so i dont want him ever go mutas and if i see it i go dual stargate (dont lose ur corsairs)
from here i just mass and go fast zealots +1 +2 attack upgrades storm archon and attack, the corsairs scout so i can see a lurkertech and put in a shitton of dragoons in my army or a muta switch so i mass corsairs.
so a zealotpressure into expansion.
for me i like it more because if u fe he basicly contains u and u can scout late so he can bust u easy, also with sairs u see a hydrabust in time so u can build 4+ canons to hold
also 20-30% of the games u just win with ur zealots because they are to ignorant to build a sunken
some of the games u can put in reaverdrops and try something else, u also can try to put the gateway in the wall in at ur natural and pressure from there but thats hard vs early attacks to hold and normaly not needed until higher ranks.
overall i give u 1 importent factor: BE A PAIN IN THE NECK
harras with corsairs send zealots to his new expansions send a zealot drop in his main go out with a few goons and kill lurkers no matter what just DO something! alot players on lower ranks have their builds planned out, so ur zealot harras in the start screw their build timings then when u harras him nonstoop he cant think to replan his builds and often totaly fails the buildorders, it not works vs good players but on lower ranks it rly destroys the enemy when u keep him busy
PS: try to find a few zergs u can play 10+ games against knowing their strategy so u can test ur builds
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Hi. In my experience, if you are new.... fuck build orders.
Play for fun with the race that gives you the most pleasure of controlling. Once you have the basics down after 50'ish games then you can focus on build orders. Until then make sure to watch every loss you have to identify why you lost.
And as the ladder is "unstable" right now with the matchmaking I would advise you to throw the first 10-15 games. Just enter and surrender. After that you should have a playable and enjoyable experience of laddering up and learning broodwar and your race.
Hope this helps
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1) Overall if you wanna go into a safe macro game vs Z you will need to mass up on sairs, usually 7 sairs with +1 attack to 1 shot scourges (vs standard lair into 5/6 hatch builds) in order to protect your high templars from getting sniped by mutas. That's the basic theory behind massing sairs vs Z.
That said, if you want an easier style of play at lower lvls (this also works quite well at higher levels) try going for 2 sairs into 8 gate zeal/goon/ht play on 2 bases. The 2 sairs are to harass a bit and fake like you're massing up on sairs, you never wanna let your opponent know what you're doing. You also wanna check Z's nat gas with your 1st sair, if he has it then that usually means he's going into mutas, you're gonna want to keep massing sairs if he is. By defending his early game mutas with your sairs that should put you in a pretty big lead, you can macro normally behind that.
Versus standard 5 hatch spire with 1 gas (info you gain after having scouted Z's nat with your 1st sair) you basically mass up heavily on 2 bases/8gates and make about ~5 hts (you overmake HTs in this situation in order to have backup temps in case z tries to snipe them with mutas). Mass up heavily on goons so you can punish Z if he tries to fly in and pick off your hts. Because you massed up heavily on 2 bases you should have more than enough gate units to fight his main hydra comp.
2) 3 hatch lair > spire into 5 hatch and eventually 6 hatch hydra on 3 bases is a style that allows z to get scourges out in order to protect their ovis from getting harassed by sairs. The current meta revolves around zerg going hydras and tech switching into lurkers or mutas depending on the situation, another alternative is for z to take a main base nat as their 3rd and just turtle to hive tech. Styles vary depending on the map, spawn positions etc.
3) FFE is weak to hydra busts IF you're not active with your scouting in the early game. You need to have a probe constantly scouting z's main in order to see whether or not hes taking his gas, teching to lair or dropping a hydra den. Depending on Z's tech choice your response will be different, protoss is the reactionary race in the MU so you need to adjust your play depending on what you scout.
And before you ask this, no you can't go FFE and then just blindly make 10 cannons in order to defend a potential hydra bust. You're doing that blind, it's not solid play. If Z decides to macro up normally you'll end up being really far behind tech-wise and eventually eco-wise, you're just giving away way too much map control.
4) If youre 1 base teching you just need to block your ramp with zeals (if z is going 9 pool speed you need to add probes to your ramp block, 1 zeal with 2 probes behind it, until you eventually get a 2nd zeal out). You can't wall your ramp with buildings properly, the only reason people make their gate at their ramp is so they can rally their zeal quicker to the ramp, that's not necessary tho.
5) First of all 1 base tech builds are map dependent, you go 1 base tech if your nat is too hard to wall off (on maps such as Nostalgia, Python etc.). To answer your main question, no you shouldn't go for 1 base tech builds on standard maps like FS/CB (well you can but that's only at higher levels).
If your goal is to get better at BW you need to improve your mechanics, the best way to do that is by going into macro games safely. FFE is actually a great way to punish low eco/allin zergs, you just need to probe scout actively in order to defend w/e they're doing. I understand that constant probe scouting might be hard to do for newer players but you need to start getting into good habits early.
6) Np, here's a great ressource if you're trying to learn how to play properly: http://korhal.info.pl/#/korhal.
Watch protoss VODs and pay attention to how they play in the early game, that's extremely important. Stork or BeSt are probably better players to watch for beginners (BeSt for example is known for going 2 base 8 gate a lot vs Z), Bisu plays a very technical/multitask oriented style which is hard to duplicate. Also, try to avoid going 1 gate gasless zealot expo for the time being. You can add that build to your repertoire once you're more accustomed to the game. Your main goal as a new player should be to go into the midd-game safely in order to practice proper micro/macro, hotkeying your army, engaging properly etc.
Glhf on your journey and remember to embrace your losses, BW is a very hard (but rewarding) game so you will ultimately lose a ton of games. There's no way around it, that's the only way you're going to improve
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Lots of good advice in this thread. I main zerg and I find zealot builds super annoying. Zealots are super strong if you are unprepared, and if the zerg is prepared there are ways to micro zealots to make them annoying regardless, putting them on ramps or sticking them near minerals.
I think going zealots also increases your skill overall, as it forces you to multitask and increase your speed which is critical for improving in starcraft. There are also a bunch of different things that happen when you make zealots (chaos mode, zerg making decisions that you see and react to), which means more meaningful decisions and learning from mistakes. Going forge cannons first, not scouting and losing all map control and playing soft rps can build bad habits.
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@Drake: Thanks a lot for the quick Reply man And yeah, the issue with late scouting is exactly what I'm facing right now with FE builds. I can't Keep my initial scouting probe alive forever, and once it dies, I'm basically stuck with either waiting for my first Sair, or hoping my Opponent somehow lets me sneak a second probe into his base, which is almost impossible.
Now about your suggestions
I did consider a Zealot rush off of 9/10 or 10/12 gates too, but I feel at this Point it would be the wrong Thing for me to do, because this doesn't really teach me proper macro Play and I basically "hope I win with early zealots". But if I do that, I might rise a bit on ladder, but eventually I'm gonna start facing good Players who don't get thrown off by that, and I'm back to the same Problem... so by doing what you suggested, I just "delay" the issue, not solve it, or?
I was thinking about running something like +1 Speedzealots off of one base (instead of off a FE), because that would give me earlier pressure than with something like the Neo Bisu build (because I leave out an early Stargate, 2nd base, etc.), but it's not an "all-in", so I still learn how to macro, simcity etc. correctly. Would that be an idea?
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Oh snap, tons of new replies while I was typing. One sec, reading everything x)
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Ok, so, again, thanks everyone for the quick and detailled replies. Right now I'm reading 2 contradicting opinions out of @TT1's and the other's Posts though.
If I understood it right, TT1 basically says that, summed up, I just Need to "git gud", so I shouldn't try to adapt my build orders to low mmr Zergs, but instead basically "force" a macro game, so I already know how to do it once I meet more competent Zergs who won't just try to rush me and then either win or lose in 5 minutes?
While the other Posts said that I should be more proactive earlier in the game, and only once an early Zealot attack was unsuccessful, Switch to the macro game?
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^ Yup! Imo that's how you accelerate your learning process. Play safely in the early game (with proactive probe scouting) in order to reach the midd-game so you can improve your mechanics. Once your mechanics are at an acceptable level you can start integrating 1 gate zealot pressure builds into your playstyle.
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That's what i feared, yeah... like I said earlier, I know that adapting to the low lvl gameplay of People just kinda "delays" the real issue, because eventually I'll meet better Players.
I just kinda hoped it wasn't true x)
But again, thanks a lot everyone for your replies! I guess that also means no more DT rushes vs Terran anymore, and that I should learn how to fight a Tank/Vulture army in the open instead
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On August 23 2017 19:16 SartPls wrote:@Drake: Thanks a lot for the quick Reply man And yeah, the issue with late scouting is exactly what I'm facing right now with FE builds. I can't Keep my initial scouting probe alive forever, and once it dies, I'm basically stuck with either waiting for my first Sair, or hoping my Opponent somehow lets me sneak a second probe into his base, which is almost impossible. Now about your suggestions I did consider a Zealot rush off of 9/10 or 10/12 gates too, but I feel at this Point it would be the wrong Thing for me to do, because this doesn't really teach me proper macro Play and I basically "hope I win with early zealots". But if I do that, I might rise a bit on ladder, but eventually I'm gonna start facing good Players who don't get thrown off by that, and I'm back to the same Problem... so by doing what you suggested, I just "delay" the issue, not solve it, or? I was thinking about running something like +1 Speedzealots off of one base (instead of off a FE), because that would give me earlier pressure than with something like the Neo Bisu build (because I leave out an early Stargate, 2nd base, etc.), but it's not an "all-in", so I still learn how to macro, simcity etc. correctly. Would that be an idea?
oh no i dont mean zealot RUSH no 9/10 either 10/12 i talk abotu a 11 gate or if 2 gates building probes between 1. and 2nd gate with pressure that lets z react while u expand and build forge etc. it can be that its not a good strat for perfect micro zergs on high level but on lower level the zerg still defend it like either he think there is only 1 zealot or 2 and then loses drones, or he overract thinking its 9/10 and over build zerglings while u just fall back.
i think 4 zealots and 1 probe is harder for the z to micro against then for a p to micro with so he has to defend micro his zerglings often build sunkens change his build miss 3rd expansion and all while u expand.
again the zerg is under pressure makes the wrong decisions and u have alot informations its basicly a 1-2 gate into expand macro hardcore style with a bit of harrass in the start (i guess tt1 level my build is horrible but on lower levels its just nice and again i dont have any build orders i curretnly use its just a free style art becuase i am so lazy to learn all builds right now)
if u can get the build orders right 1-1 then for sake do it i just find it hard to remember everything and just like to have a "core" basic to build specific builds on, so in case something strange happens u have a core u can fall back to
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On August 23 2017 20:05 SartPls wrote:That's what i feared, yeah... like I said earlier, I know that adapting to the low lvl gameplay of People just kinda "delays" the real issue, because eventually I'll meet better Players. I just kinda hoped it wasn't true x) But again, thanks a lot everyone for your replies! I guess that also means no more DT rushes vs Terran anymore, and that I should learn how to fight a Tank/Vulture army in the open instead
Well you can still experiment and have fun . It all depends on what your goals are.
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On August 23 2017 20:11 TT1 wrote:Well you can still experiment and have fun . It all depends on what your goals are.
I mean ultimately, my Goal is to become as good as possible in BW (for a non-korean ;D ), so yeah.
The "fun" Thing is that I actually KNOW what my main issues are right now. It's
a) I can't really process info I get from scouting into how I should Switch up my build order. Like... I can spot Basic stuff, like a 5 or 9 pool because of how "easy" it is to Scout that. But Things like you mentioned, that a missing gas in his natural indicates a Hydra bust, etc., I just don't know those (yet).
And also with how much I still rely on copy pasting build orders from TL, I don't know how to adapt them once I actually HAVE scouting info. Like, if I know he's going for a Hydra bust, what do I do? I guess I add 2-3 more cannons to my natural, but apart from that? Stick to my Basic game plan? Ignore a stargate and go right into HTs? etc.
b) I Keep forgetting to add more production Buildings. You're talking about 8 gates, I don't think I've ever had that much in a single game no matter how Long it took x) After 4 I just usually Forget to add more, and eventually, if it goes to the late game, mass Stargates for Carriers instead, etc.
c) I still do some beginner mistakes, like just forgetting to have probes mine gas from my assimilator if I have to Micro Zealots for defense at the same time, and once I defended the attack and realize I had no probes mining gas, I'm so far behind with my build due to the lack of gas, that I Panic and have no clue what to do.
d) I tend to turtle too much, I should be more aggressive once I have a certain number of Zealots and just move out to try and gain map Control
But yeah, I guess again, the solution to all of that is... spam games, and get used to it. Also I should propably read and learn the other races' build orders too to more easily process info from scouting
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On August 23 2017 20:09 Drake wrote:oh no i dont mean zealot RUSH no 9/10 either 10/12 i talk abotu a 11 gate or if 2 gates building probes between 1. and 2nd gate with pressure that lets z react while u expand and build forge etc. it can be that its not a good strat for perfect micro zergs on high level but on lower level the zerg still defend it like either he think there is only 1 zealot or 2 and then loses drones, or he overract thinking its 9/10 and over build zerglings while u just fall back. i think 4 zealots and 1 probe is harder for the z to micro against then for a p to micro with so he has to defend micro his zerglings often build sunkens change his build miss 3rd expansion and all while u expand. again the zerg is under pressure makes the wrong decisions and u have alot informations its basicly a 1-2 gate into expand macro hardcore style with a bit of harrass in the start (i guess tt1 level my build is horrible but on lower levels its just nice and again i dont have any build orders i curretnly use its just a free style art becuase i am so lazy to learn all builds right now) if u can get the build orders right 1-1 then for sake do it i just find it hard to remember everything and just like to have a "core" basic to build specific builds on, so in case something strange happens u have a core u can fall back to
Oooh, I see, sorry for misunderstanding you then! But yeah, I guess I'll try doing some earlier Zealot harass, just not sure if I want to dedicate extra Probes for that, maybe the 1-2 initial scouting probes, but not more.
4 Zealots sounds like a solid number, will definitely try that out, thanks again!
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On August 23 2017 20:46 SartPls wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2017 20:09 Drake wrote:oh no i dont mean zealot RUSH no 9/10 either 10/12 i talk abotu a 11 gate or if 2 gates building probes between 1. and 2nd gate with pressure that lets z react while u expand and build forge etc. it can be that its not a good strat for perfect micro zergs on high level but on lower level the zerg still defend it like either he think there is only 1 zealot or 2 and then loses drones, or he overract thinking its 9/10 and over build zerglings while u just fall back. i think 4 zealots and 1 probe is harder for the z to micro against then for a p to micro with so he has to defend micro his zerglings often build sunkens change his build miss 3rd expansion and all while u expand. again the zerg is under pressure makes the wrong decisions and u have alot informations its basicly a 1-2 gate into expand macro hardcore style with a bit of harrass in the start (i guess tt1 level my build is horrible but on lower levels its just nice and again i dont have any build orders i curretnly use its just a free style art becuase i am so lazy to learn all builds right now) if u can get the build orders right 1-1 then for sake do it i just find it hard to remember everything and just like to have a "core" basic to build specific builds on, so in case something strange happens u have a core u can fall back to Oooh, I see, sorry for misunderstanding you then! But yeah, I guess I'll try doing some earlier Zealot harass, just not sure if I want to dedicate extra Probes for that, maybe the 1-2 initial scouting probes, but not more. 4 Zealots sounds like a solid number, will definitely try that out, thanks again!
jeah u just use the starting scouting probe that u scouted with
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I think ur focusing too much on This (build) beats this Z (build). If you are knew pick a style even an outdated style as the bisu BO that you mentioned works it just in modern pro games its rather outdated, but one gate into corsairs builds are totally legit. Anyways pick a BO and style that you want to play (forge expand for heavy macro game or one base for early pressure etc) and then just practice the shit out of it doing the same thing over and over again that way you will build the foundation.
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On August 23 2017 22:38 CoL_BabyZerg wrote: I think ur focusing too much on This (build) beats this Z (build). If you are knew pick a style even an outdated style as the bisu BO that you mentioned works it just in modern pro games its rather outdated, but one gate into corsairs builds are totally legit. Anyways pick a BO and style that you want to play (forge expand for heavy macro game or one base for early pressure etc) and then just practice the shit out of it doing the same thing over and over again that way you will build the foundation.
Yeah, I guess I Need to do that until all the mechanics and "Basic" build orders are memorized without having to think twice.
Out of curiosity, if the Neo Bisu Build (+1 Sair/Speedlots) is outdated in the pro Scene, what's the most common PvZ Build there nowadays?
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On August 24 2017 02:49 SartPls wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2017 22:38 CoL_BabyZerg wrote: I think ur focusing too much on This (build) beats this Z (build). If you are knew pick a style even an outdated style as the bisu BO that you mentioned works it just in modern pro games its rather outdated, but one gate into corsairs builds are totally legit. Anyways pick a BO and style that you want to play (forge expand for heavy macro game or one base for early pressure etc) and then just practice the shit out of it doing the same thing over and over again that way you will build the foundation. Yeah, I guess I Need to do that until all the mechanics and "Basic" build orders are memorized without having to think twice. Out of curiosity, if the Neo Bisu Build (+1 Sair/Speedlots) is outdated in the pro Scene, what's the most common PvZ Build there nowadays?
Make sure you check out the website that TT1 linked http://korhal.info.pl/#/korhal
It lets you watch all the FPVODs from progamers so you can see which builds are most popular but ALSO how to execute them. This is such a huge resource that no one had access to during the pro BW era, make sure you make the most of it now that we have it.
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On August 24 2017 02:52 -Frog- wrote:Make sure you check out the website that TT1 linked http://korhal.info.pl/#/korhalIt lets you watch all the FPVODs from progamers so you can see which builds are most popular but ALSO how to execute them. This is such a huge resource that no one had access to during the pro BW era, make sure you make the most of it now that we have it.
I definitely will. Didn't try to ask for a detailled build/execution like there is on liquipedia, it was more out of interest what's the current "Standard", since +1 Sair/Speedlot apparently doesn't do the trick anymore for pros?
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On August 23 2017 20:39 SartPls wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2017 20:11 TT1 wrote:Well you can still experiment and have fun . It all depends on what your goals are. I mean ultimately, my Goal is to become as good as possible in BW (for a non-korean ;D ), so yeah. The "fun" Thing is that I actually KNOW what my main issues are right now. It's a) I can't really process info I get from scouting into how I should Switch up my build order. Like... I can spot Basic stuff, like a 5 or 9 pool because of how "easy" it is to Scout that. But Things like you mentioned, that a missing gas in his natural indicates a Hydra bust, etc., I just don't know those (yet). And also with how much I still rely on copy pasting build orders from TL, I don't know how to adapt them once I actually HAVE scouting info. Like, if I know he's going for a Hydra bust, what do I do? I guess I add 2-3 more cannons to my natural, but apart from that? Stick to my Basic game plan? Ignore a stargate and go right into HTs? etc.[...]
I tried writing some articles about that:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/438605-pvz-counter-all-ins-and-cheese http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/450579-other-basics
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with regards to noticing what is "missing"when it comes to scouting, ie the mentioned missing gas means X.. that comes from an understanding of the matchup, often on both sides. If you are hung up on maximized build orders, check out a few of the most common Z ones, study those for a few days and thats how you become to know what to look for when scouting as P. It's a shit ton of work, and often just massing games with P you begin to interalize these things on your own (especially timings like when surprise mutas are actually possible, etc) but playing Z too will help a lot.
Thats why people give the advice of playing random or at least the race you are weakest vs.. cause you see it from their side, and see what makes them weak vs your race. I personally used to struggle with PvT a lot, but I can't play T at all, even on a basic level. The next best thing (for a oldschooler like me trying to get back into it) is watching lots of TvP matchups from pros, it gives me an idea of what gives these T's problems (timing wise, composition wise or strategy wise) and helps with my ideas in PvT.
I don't know what MMR / "iccup level" you are at, you seem to imply relatively low (no offense if not) - so at this time, my recommendation to getting better is just massing games on matchmaking, follow a basic build order from TL, nothing complicated, and work on your macro/micro/overall game. When you lose, watch the replay quickly and try to point out A) Why you lost / where it "started" to go bad and B) What you could have done in this game to not have that happen again - but the mass playing and just getting comfortable is the key IMO to improving to competitive shape - following the simple rules of macro (try to never go above ~500 minerals at any time, try to boost your APM over +50 higher than your average, etc)
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As a Protoss who played almost exclusively 1 base builds for a couple of years recently, I can tell you straight up that they are fun, you will win some gimmicky games against some low level Zerg, but if you truly want to improve and have a better chance against higher level Zergs, making your 2 base play (off of FFE or 1 Gate expand) solid is paramount. After a certain skill level, 1 base tech plays will simply not work unless you have stronger multitask than your opponent, so your fear of multitask being a barrier of entry actually becomes even more pressing off of 1 base IMO. 1 base Zealot all-ins are countered pretty easily at higher levels as well.
In short, I think you should commit yourself to playing with conventional ways (but as others said, some flexibility in your BO is okay). You will lose more at first, but every game can add to your knowledge of how the match-up should work, which means you will be better prepared later to win.
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1 base build is hard, but try making proxy gate 9/10 (pylon 8 middle of map for example) and win early with your zealots, it will teach you stuff about the early after you win a few times you could go back to mixing this with other more standard less risky builds, one of them 2 gates @main, or 2 gates@nat (not easy), or 1gate@main or 1gate@nat etc many follow ups forge or cyber, expo or tech if you make gate@main yes if you have only 1 gate you can cover Z rushes with blocking ramp with zealots, but depending on what Z does you might need to add a goon there, probes, a shield battery, or a canon whatever mix depending if you make pylon @nat, the big advantage is you have more possible follow ups, because it will be less costly to expand earlier. However if you make pylon@main, it will cost you less to defend if you want to tech faster, so it has the best tech follow ups. And you need some techs to be able to attack the Z efficiently after he has sunkens.
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Ok, first of all, once again thank you so much for the many and detailled replies, it's really amazing to see how much help and Support you get here as a bad Player.
I've read everything, including the 2 articles Gecko linked, and I (think I) understood everything too. Yet, reading all of your replies opened up some more questions, and REopened an earlier one. Bear with me if I don't directly Quote or link you, I have read it all in one go so can't remember who said some Things exactly.
First of all, I still read a lot of conflicting opinions on wether or not going for Multitasking-heavy builds is a good Thing or not. I'll just have to take Bisu and his "Neo Bisu Build" (+1 Sair/Speedlot) as an example again, because he's propably the most well known. As I mentioned earlier what scared me away from the build first, was the amount of Multitasking that's needed to execute it properly. Now in this thread, on the one Hand I read Things like "just Play it anyways, it's the best way of learning it, even though you will fail a lot early" (which I generally agree with 100%), but on the other Hand I also read Things like "Bisu has such a mechanical and Micro-oriented playstyle that it's almost impossible to duplicate"... which I also kinda agree with x)
Then a bit later I read "Just pick any build order that you like, and practise the shit out of it", after which I thought "ok, lets the take the most Standard build for PvZ then and practise that, which would be Neo Bisu", and 2 Posts later I read that despite what it says on Liquipedia, the Neo Bisu Build isn't even the most Standard PvZ build in the pro Scene anymore?
Like... I understand that there are as many opinions as there are humans on the planet, and that's a good Thing But maybe some Kind of Consensus on Things like These would help me A LOT right now.
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Also, for the guy who asked about my ICCup rank, I havent played on their ladder at all. I played the original BW when it got released, but I was still more or less a kid back then (9 years old), so I only played vs AI and never took it serious. I just now picked it up again 1-2 months before Remastered got released, so don't worry, you can treat me like a complete noob x) I understand the Basic concepts, thanks to articles like the one in the Matchup Guides, Build orders or the one Gecko wrote, but it seems like there's that Little missing Piece of the puzzle that's needed to take the step from bad to average.
Edit: Also I noticed that my autocorrect program for some reason changes the capitalization of letters in a really weird way that is definitely not Standard English, so please ignore that
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10387 Posts
Let's see if I remember this correctly ..
+1 sair/speedlot was unique in that it allowed protoss to hit a +1 timing that kept the zerg's economy in check, while allowing protoss to amass a sair fleet that would give protoss air control and scouting. Before this, it was sort of one or the other: builds like Sair/DT and Sair/Reaver gave Protoss air control, but gave up a solid ground army presence for a while. As zergs got better, they made their defenses more efficient, and came out way ahead if they suffered little to no damage. +1 speedlot builds were strong, but often skimped on sairs in favor for either a stronger timing attack or archons, and were thus extremely susceptible to mutalisk strategies.
So +1 sair/speedlot sort of combines the best of both worlds, and sets up the Protoss very well into the midgame. I think the greatest benefits of this build is that it allows Protoss to continually check in on what Zerg is doing, while effectively neutralizing Mutalisk play. However, this build requires that Zerg is playing a standard 3/4 base 5/6 hatch build; I wouldn't advocate using the build in other scenarios like 3-6 hatch late lair hydralisk play. It is a build specifically tailored against standard play.
I think it's important to understand the logic of a build, since PvZ is a very reactive matchup, where Protoss has to constantly adjust their build to what the Zerg is doing. If I see late lair, then I usually skimp on corsairs for a bit and go for a stronger +1 timing. And honestly, if your multitasking skills arent quite up to par, I would recommend doing something a bit simpler, like 4 gate 2 archon, or the Jangbi +1 speedlot into double stargate. You'll probably learn the flow of the match up better that way, and unless you're playing against very good players, any build can work if you make the right tactical and strategical choices.
When your understanding of the game gets better, along with your mechanics, then I would recommend to use +1 sair/speedlot so that you can take advantage of all the scouting information while keeping on top of base management and army control.
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10387 Posts
Stork has been on the record saying that the problem with 1 base builds in PvZ is that they're so much more volatile than FE builds .. there are so many more variables at play, and so many more coin flips with 1 base play, so it requires a lot of experience and some luck in order to be successful with it.
Also, I am reading some people advocating for playing without a build order .. I think that's terrible advice. Build orders are the fastest way to learn the game; when you copy a build order, you are essentially taking a shortcut through the hours of research and experience it took to make that build. I feel like that advice is coming from a place where people have followed builds blindly without really understanding why or what to do .. of course, that is not good. But that doesn't mean you should disregard exact builds entirely. The best way is to find a good build to follow, but to also try to understand why the build is constructed as such, and how to adapt the build if things go awry.
One example I can think of is in PvT, the simplest of builds, 1 gate core: 8 Pylon, 10 gate, 12 gas, 13 core. But if you play, you'll notice that you have enough money to build gas at 11, so why 12 instead of 11? Because if you build gas at 11, then you'll end up with a lot more gas than you need, and less minerals than you'd like. You could waste hours playing like that, wondering why you don't have quite enough money to continually produce probes/goons/pylons/etc for the first 5 minutes of the game, perhaps dying to a few early pushes and cheeses, or fall very behind in the later game. Or you could follow the build, take the shortcut, win some more games than you would otherwise, and learn the lesson that the build provides.
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1) The general early-to-midgame speedlot/sair aggression plan off of the "Neo Bisu Build" doesn't REQUIRE super good multitasking any more than other aggressive flexible builds of the same kind (e.g.: TvZ 5rax). The idea is to be annoying with the upgraded sairs/speedlots (and potential 2 DTs if you're feeling that way) and threaten a huge setback on maps with a weak 3rd base. The harassment comes at a time where the Zerg does not yet have a big enough army (or optimal drones at third) and wants to delay or slightly slow down the pace of the game until he has the 2+ groups of hydras + lurkers that he needs to deal with the emerging goon/zeal/HT + (archon) army while Z techs to something else (and keep P from noticing that and setting up a faster third on his own via minimal ling harassment). Of course, the Z also doesn't want to just spam colonies in response because that's minerals not going to drones/hydras.
IMO it's fine to practice the build in order to learn through repeated experiences what you have to do from early-midgame onwards in the PvZ MU, esp with responding to Z's attempts to slowly set up a strong line of hydra-lurkers to confine you to a section of the map while the Z just does whatever he wants with his econ. This obviously isn't as easy as it looks because if your storms aren't very good or if your zealots are slightly late to the party (or way too early) during engagements and you lose out you essentially end up giving Z a free road to hive tech -> ultras. These midgame decisions and keeping up mechanically are the most important things, not the build order (although understanding its idea is also important).
2) The idea of the FFE into +1 stuff PvZ meta is (as I implied before) a threat to the Z (and their 3rd base) before they can really set up clumps of hydras everywhere. If you go through JD's refined 5 hatch hydra build, you'll see that the build is very very tight - it's essentially 4 lings into nothing but macro until lair + some time after. That doesn't toss can just commit to doing early aggression off of FFE b/c hatchery production, but P obviously has to try and do something before the Z's macro explodes off of 5 hatcheries and 3 bases/gases (that is, Z is now able to keep up constant hydra production while squeezing out bits of lurkers/upgrades/hive tech; he can also boost drones/ovies, save gas, and set up for 11 mutas). You could say that P could maybe set up their own 3rd real quick but that's pretty dangerous because either they have to sacrifice templar tech (which P needs to combat production off of 5/6 hatch) or they cut defense/other stuff a lot and become susceptible to earlier ling/hydra aggression or busts. Overall, it's more of a back-and-forth kind of thing based upon how aggressive the P is with his initial lots/sairs OR if the Z decides to really go for some funky hydra bust timing.
3) FFE builds are weaker vs early ling rushes (strength obv map/scouting-dependent) b/c of the timings of the forge/expansion setups (no gate/zealot until later). 1-base tech discussions (especially when they get scouted out early by Z) are a bit funky, so it's hard to discuss that in parallel with FFE. But I would advise against 1base teching as a crutch since good players will know how to set up a minimum amount of earlier hydras (or even lurkers) to confine you in your base and then set up anti-shuttle measures. It also doesn't give you the experience and ideas of the midgame/lategame standard PvZ you need to master the MU and prevent it from becoming a coinflip (now and later on).
Hope this helps.
EDIT: Also listen to Arvick. I only make meme BOs.
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On August 24 2017 04:42 SartPls wrote: Ok, first of all, once again thank you so much for the many and detailled replies, it's really amazing to see how much help and Support you get here as a bad Player.
I've read everything, including the 2 articles Gecko linked, and I (think I) understood everything too. Yet, reading all of your replies opened up some more questions, and REopened an earlier one.
The short answer is: Stop theorycrafting right now and get to gaming. Play a full session of games, take a break and analyse them later. Repeat this circle twice - play session followed by analysing session. Then go and re-read or research different builds. With every play - analyse - re-read you get a better understanding of the game. With analysis in this paragraph I mostly refer to standard problems, such as forgetting pylons or not adding tech/infrastructures. This alone goes a very, very long way. You probably stop with this fundamentals once you hit a rank you're good enough to compete in the better tournaments, and even then you shouldn't stop.
Now for the long answer.
You get caught in a trap a lot of people do. Teamliquid is really obsessed with Build Orders, especially with "playing like the Koreans". This is bullcrap for beginners, as it's way too much information you can possibly handle as of now.
Obviously, it's good advice when you want to get from "decent foreigner" to "very good foreigner" and even more important once you want to be "elite foreigner". However, learn to walk before you run.
In Brood War almost no hard counter exists, therefore Build Orders on lower levels mean jack shit. There are tons of softening factors, the most pivotal one being the mechanical limit you have right now. Understanding every detail of a match up requires tons of knowledge, you can ignore for the start. And start means a quite high ranking, a ranking so high many posters here won't understand.
I believe Jealous did do some really in-depth analysis of somewhat good games, and even in those it showed that nearly no "very good" foreigner plays flawless. Almost nobody on this page could follow an elite guide to the very letter, or if they do, adapt in the most perfect matter.
What I tried to express in my "other basics" guide was that Build Orders are nearly always not performed well by any skilled foreigner, except for the very best. Therefore, the first five minutes of a game matter a lot more than you might think, as this is the time span you can manage. What comes afterwards is an abstract idea to you and it should remain this for a long while. Therefore, simply having a rough idea what to do next is perfectly fine. Instead, try to get a feel for hard carved timings, that indicate what you can and can not do. For instance: try to get a feeling when you have to start to get Zealot Speed and when +1 to have them both finish somewhat at the same time. Try to figure how long it takes for a Zerg to hit you full face with his 3 Hatch Hydra Bust.
At first your intentions will take you to a stage you handle all-ins well, then you'll learn about potential mid-game transitions and, to be perfectly honest, I don't know how long it will take you to understand any match up to the very late stages. I never got there, but was good enough with the basic ideas and only somewhat flawed Build Order execution to participate in BWCL 1 and hit something around C+/B- with Toss and C with all races before the beta. It really is enough.
If you still worry you might learn the very wrong things, start to ask in the strat forums with examples of your play. We have some A- (+++) ranked players responding and giving in-depth analysis. But really: As long as you screw up the basics, such as having 4 Gates until the late game, you are fine with my approach.
It's a quite long road and you shouldn't worry about having the right book knowledge, as it only carries you so far. Book knowledge helps you to understand the rough ideas, but not more. If you follow "reading before playing" too much, you'll end up advancig quite slowly.
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Most important thing is find a build that you like and break it down into components.
For me my build order in Terran vs Protoss means I want to get
A factory Tank and Marine for defense Another Command Center Engineering Bay and Turret for detection and anti shuttle Another Factory and Vultures and Vulture research An Armory for upgrades, Academy for Scanner Third Command Center and More factories
My plan is to defend, take another base, get vultures with mines and speed on the map, take another base and build more factories and then more units.
My build helps me optimize my plan by having a number of steps I want to get to. I can optimize my build with timings on the "food" (44/52 supply for example), or use other things like time stamp or how many tanks I have.
The most important thing is the overall gameplan. The build only helps me follow this plan! You should always be trying to remember and follow your plan! And that means following the order of things that occur in your build! If you get lost or your build is no longer inexact, if you simply remember what's next in your build and what's next in your gameplan you'll get where you want to go.
Choose a PLAN that you want! Maybe you want to KILL Zerg with zealots okay then find a BUILD that will help you get there. Anything will do but just make sure that you are always remember what your goal is! WE CAN ALWAYS CHANGE THE BUILD but it's so important that you do not become fixated on A build. We can do a different one to match the same goals or change your goals vs zerg!
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The game plays completely differently at low levels of play. Use a build order that compensates for your faults and slowly work new things into your gameplay. You might discover new little tricks that help you (and maybe only you) win. SCBW is about style.
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To answer your worry about the lack of consensus in some of these things and your desire for its presence, I have to tell you that you sadly won't get one on certain topics. This is due to multiple reasons that I won't get into, but the fundamental issue is that everyone got better through different avenues, with the most universal overlap being straight up practice/grinding games and then self-analysis. For example, some people say to learn the builds and strategies first, while others will say to work on mechanics first. Phone dying, will post some relevant links later.
EDIT: Ver's "How to Improve" guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/stet_tcl/How_to_Improve_by_Ver.pdf
What Gecko was talking about in relation to me, my video where I analyze PvZ build orders. This could be useful for you in how to analyze pro reps and your own play and to see the process of learning through watching with purpose:
Click me.
Here is a high level Protoss foreigner discussing his play and strategies with me in each MU:
Click me too.
As I said above, everyone has their own path to success and it is okay to cater to your own style/limitations at first, but eventually you will have to tackle your deficiencies head on if you want to make it to the next plateau. For me, I first just played however I felt like it until I hit a wall, then I learned 1-2 builds for each MU and learned how to react to certain aggressive builds from my opponents through reading the forums/liquipedia/watching the pros, then I hit one mechanical wall after another, all of which I overcame by pushing myself to play faster than I was comfortable with until it became comfortable. The most essential part of all of this is continuously playing and practicing with the intent of getting better, otherwise your progress will be slow even in the lower levels.
Everyone's journey is different, and to best help us help YOU is to assess what your next step is based on what you're trying to improve and then people can give you more solid advice. Generally posting reps is preferred. Good luck, have fun!
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Ok, sorry for the late Reply, but I had to give this some Long thought, and also tried some stuff ingame.
MASSIVE thanks to arvick, ymir and gecko again, those answers were more or less exactly what I was looking for and also really well written.
Now in the end I was kinda pressing myself into drawing a conclusion out of all this help, so right now my idea was to do the following Things:
- Keep a Basic "Skeleton build" of FFE into +1 Speedlots asap
- Improve my early game scouting to spot stuff that +1 Speedlots can't handle (2 Base Lurker/2 Base Muta for example), and if scouted, delay the +1 Speedlot attack to adapt to my opponents build by weaving in 2 Stargates or Robo+Observatory tech respectively
- Should I be able to execute the +1 Speedlot Timing attack (should be around 6:30 if I'm not wrong?) without having to weave in counter-tech, but my Opponent survives the attack, I take a 3rd base
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Does that Sound like a reasonable base to practise the MU off?
Also, another smaller questions: If I don't find my Opponent on the first try, the Liquid guides advice me to prepare 2 cannons (basically assuming 9 pool) in my natural. But if I do that, it will delay my build order in a way that my army moves out roughly 30 seconds later than it would if I go Nexus first. Do I miss an important window by doing so?
Once again, thank you all so much for your Patience with me x)
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On August 24 2017 09:06 Jealous wrote:To answer your worry about the lack of consensus in some of these things and your desire for its presence, I have to tell you that you sadly won't get one on certain topics. This is due to multiple reasons that I won't get into, but the fundamental issue is that everyone got better through different avenues, with the most universal overlap being straight up practice/grinding games and then self-analysis. For example, some people say to learn the builds and strategies first, while others will say to work on mechanics first. Phone dying, will post some relevant links later. EDIT: Ver's "How to Improve" guide: http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/stet_tcl/How_to_Improve_by_Ver.pdfWhat Gecko was talking about in relation to me, my video where I analyze PvZ build orders. This could be useful for you in how to analyze pro reps and your own play and to see the process of learning through watching with purpose: Click me.Here is a high level Protoss foreigner discussing his play and strategies with me in each MU: Click me too.As I said above, everyone has their own path to success and it is okay to cater to your own style/limitations at first, but eventually you will have to tackle your deficiencies head on if you want to make it to the next plateau. For me, I first just played however I felt like it until I hit a wall, then I learned 1-2 builds for each MU and learned how to react to certain aggressive builds from my opponents through reading the forums/liquipedia/watching the pros, then I hit one mechanical wall after another, all of which I overcame by pushing myself to play faster than I was comfortable with until it became comfortable. The most essential part of all of this is continuously playing and practicing with the intent of getting better, otherwise your progress will be slow even in the lower levels. Everyone's journey is different, and to best help us help YOU is to assess what your next step is based on what you're trying to improve and then people can give you more solid advice. Generally posting reps is preferred. Good luck, have fun!
Just now saw your Edits. My brain is a bit mashed atm, so I'll go to sleep, but I'll check out those links tomorrow, and thanks a lot already!
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On August 24 2017 09:43 SartPls wrote: Does that Sound like a reasonable base to practise the MU off? Yes, but I would amend it to say that you should consider expanding WHILE you do your +1 Zealot attack. During this time you should have map control and aggression - will be hard for Zerg to deny. As you said though, this is situational.
Also, another smaller questions: If I don't find my Opponent on the first try, the Liquid guides advice me to prepare 2 cannons (basically assuming 9 pool) in my natural. But if I do that, it will delay my build order in a way that my army moves out roughly 30 seconds later than it would if I go Nexus first. Do I miss an important window by doing so?
Once again, thank you all so much for your Patience with me x) It's better to be safe and late than sorry. Me personally, I double-scout on 4 player maps by doing 8 Pylon -> Probe scout, 10 Forge -> Probe scout. On Ladder, Zergs cheese. I played ladder at my friend's house and I've not seen a single Hatch-first build, so double scouting on ladder is not a bad idea IMO. At least you will never auto-lose to anything or be blindsided.
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Dragoon+Reaver is still a thing though.
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On August 24 2017 10:10 StarscreamG1 wrote: Dragoon+Reaver is still a thing though. Haven't seen anyone do this at a competitive level in years. Care to share?
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On August 24 2017 10:11 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2017 10:10 StarscreamG1 wrote: Dragoon+Reaver is still a thing though. Haven't seen anyone do this at a competitive level in years. Care to share? They did it at StarCraft Remastered Launch Event and ret and artosis said that they still see some guys using it at top level. Not for ASL level, but still viable for most of us.
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On August 24 2017 10:18 StarscreamG1 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2017 10:11 Jealous wrote:On August 24 2017 10:10 StarscreamG1 wrote: Dragoon+Reaver is still a thing though. Haven't seen anyone do this at a competitive level in years. Care to share? They did it at StarCraft Remastered Launch Event and ret and artosis said that they still see some guys using it at top level. Not for ASL level, but still viable for most of us. Oh for sure. I do enjoy that style a lot, although I think a major portion of its success at lower levels is due to people not knowing how to react haha. I was asking more in the hopes of seeing some recent VODs. Haven't had time to check out the SCR event, now doubly excited for it! Thanks.
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@Jealous: Had a busy day, so still didn't get around to watch your links. FeelsBadMan. It's not forgotten though!
Also hey, Keep the discussion going guys, I'd be happy to read more what everyone thinks about varying build orders
Quick question too: You mentioned a thread where I can upload replays and top Players critizise them, did I get that right? And if yes, would you mind sharing a link?
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Last but not least: Is there any legit way I can beat a Terran army in an open fight without 600 apm rofl? It seems like there's just way too many Things to do at the same time... Minedragging with Zealots, Goon Micro, Stasis the backline the Tanks, Shuttle Micro to drop HTs in the back and Storm, etc. etc.
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1 base play is cheese. Watch any pro game ZvP they will always either forge fast expand or 1 gate fast expand. It's meta. 1 base is gimmicky cheese.
Tbh I'd advise playing zerg and if not at least Terran. Toss is for scrubs
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On August 25 2017 10:46 traxamillion wrote: 1 base play is cheese. Watch any pro game ZvP they will always either forge fast expand or 1 gate fast expand. It's meta. 1 base is gimmicky cheese.
Tbh I'd advise playing zerg and if not at least Terran. Toss is for scrubs
No offense, but even someone at my Level knows how much horsecrap that post is.
Might want to think twice in the future
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Show me any pro games on FS or CB where toss 1 bases (or even other maps where they aren't just 2gate ai)
Maybe my 2ND paragraph you can disagree with but it's pretty much true. Toss has highest food per unit so it's easier to control their armies not to mention the way they build buildings. So much of what protoss has to do is just gimmicky; hiding cannons vs 11hatch, zealot ai, zealot harass, sair harass, DTs, storm drops. All so they can get the death ball up to not get crushed. Not even saying it's good Toss is the weakest race it's just cheesy/easy. At a mediocre skill you will get the highest MMR with Toss but get to a higher level and you will just get continually smashed by good zergs.
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On August 25 2017 11:31 traxamillion wrote: What's untrue about it? Just because cheese is not meta doesn't mean not meta is cheese.
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I'd appreciate if you wouldn't derail this thread. If you, for whatever reason, feel the urge to argue with someone, feel free to PM me.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 25 2017 10:46 traxamillion wrote: 1 base play is cheese. Watch any pro game ZvP they will always either forge fast expand or 1 gate fast expand. It's meta. 1 base is gimmicky cheese.
This is completely and utterly wrong. All progamers use 1 base builds here and there. Source? Go watch all progamers on a regular basis. You can start from BisuOf course this doesn't mean they use 1 base builds more than 10-15% of the time, or that it is not weaker than fast expanding, but what you said is far from the truth. Also, since it was mentioned, Free beat Soulkey on CB in SSL with one base reaver, also Best beat Soulkey on Outsider(ASL3) with goon/reaver push. Can't think of more games right now but i think there was more goon/reaver on Outsider Sorry for derailing
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On August 25 2017 12:38 ortseam wrote: Sorry for derailing
I meant Traxamillion. You just posted an objective Statement, because those games DID happen While he was clearly just trying to cause Trouble, so don't worry. And thanks!
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Yeah, the statement is massive bullshit and probably a lot of whining in it. One base PvZ makes sense on many matches, such as Outsider for example. I wouldn't see it as cheese, especially not if you can make it work with a follow up. However, using one base on the overplayed maps like FS isn't really advisable to learn the game from scratch.
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1 base in PvZ is not cheesy ofc (cheesy would be proxy stuff), some maps are more or less favorable to 1base strats, but they are playable on all. It's just, you generally don't want the Z to expect it (or they have a good chance to gain an advantage from that). For example, on a map like Python, 1base is potentially a little better than on FS, because a) there is a chance your opponent is close air distance b) it is quite a bit more difficult to defend nat on a early 2base strat c) you can potentially make use of island earlier with 1 base start
I think one important perk of 1base starts in PvZ is to punish Z who assume that you are going for 2 base and make a greedy start or also a aggressive start designed to break a nat wall, so it makes sense to mix it in your play for that reason already. They are interesting to play, I recommend to try, just don't forget to win with other builds because the follow ups are rather technical and you could lose a lot.
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I am with GeckoXp on this one: Step one: stop theory crafting and start gaming. Step two: watch your own games (especially the ones you lose) and find out what are your weak points, what are your strong points, and then what you want to work on to improve. Step three: if you get frustrated because you keep dieing to the same thing, look for replays/vods of how other protoss beat it. Step four: Practice that yourself.
At this point you will probably realize that the main reason you loose a game is bad scouting/getting fully scouted yourself.
Finally, go with the mentality: I will lose a lot, but I will learn from each loss. If you go with a mentality of "I just want to win once" or something along those lines.... you're done.
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On August 25 2017 23:33 iloveav wrote: I am with GeckoXp on this one: Step one: stop theory crafting and start gaming. Step two: watch your own games (especially the ones you lose) and find out what are your weak points, what are your strong points, and then what you want to work on to improve. Step three: if you get frustrated because you keep dieing to the same thing, look for replays/vods of how other protoss beat it. Step four: Practice that yourself.
At this point you will probably realize that the main reason you loose a game is bad scouting/getting fully scouted yourself.
Finally, go with the mentality: I will lose a lot, but I will learn from each loss. If you go with a mentality of "I just want to win once" or something along those lines.... you're done.
Yeah, I mentioned that earlier, Gecko hit the nail with the theorycrafting part. I do that in a lot of games, even those where I'm already playing on an above average Level. I always want to have the "perfect Setup" and sometimes spend days without playing until I come up with a theoretical solution to the issue I'm working on.
I've already started doing your other advice though, in one of my other Posts in this thread I listed my weaknesses (at least the ones I'm Aware of), to also visualize what I Need to work at, and now it's just spamming games while paying Attention to the Things I listed.
Something I haven't quite yet done was what you mentioned in step 3, maybe gonna do that later, just go through some VoDs and see how they handle the situations that I struggle with.
Thanks again for your help too
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On August 25 2017 08:58 SartPls wrote:@Jealous: Had a busy day, so still didn't get around to watch your links. FeelsBadMan. It's not forgotten though! Also hey, Keep the discussion going guys, I'd be happy to read more what everyone thinks about varying build orders Quick question too: You mentioned a thread where I can upload replays and top Players critizise them, did I get that right? And if yes, would you mind sharing a link? --- Last but not least: Is there any legit way I can beat a Terran army in an open fight without 600 apm rofl? It seems like there's just way too many Things to do at the same time... Minedragging with Zealots, Goon Micro, Stasis the backline the Tanks, Shuttle Micro to drop HTs in the back and Storm, etc. etc. Here's a post I made answering a question similar to your first in the Simple Questions, SImple Answers thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/220903-simple-questions-simple-answers?page=338#6749
As for the latter question, you definitely don't need 600 APM. You did list the "perfect" engagement there, with all of its moving parts, but you have to consider that the order of operations means that you can practice it even on the trees on FS and that it will become very natural for you over time. Let's look at the clicks, at least how I do it:
Preparation: Make sure your groups make sense. For example, I generally have 1+2 being Zealots, 3+4 being Dragoons + HT/Arb (if you keep them in your own group, they get EMP'd), 5+6 for additional units and Shuttle.
1a2a3a4a5a - Perpendicular to the Terran line of attack. If you have to engage a Terran, you want to be coming in from a perpendicular angle so that 1. you get a concave naturally, 2. you don't get broadsided by the entire Tank line. Make sure your shuttle (6) is in a good place strategically (usually flying in from a different angle than your army).
1m2m* - Zealots run in through the minefield 3a4a5a - Dragoons follow shortly behind 4 - click on Arbiter icon - stasis 5 - click on HT - storm Remember, you can "preprogram" these to be where the Terran army is. 6m - Shuttle starts flying towards the engagement 11 - Jump to Zealots - split to tanks I used to use the wireframes but it made it kinda complicated and the Zealots would trip on one another I recommend using drag+drop, get as many as you can 6u + click on self - Unloads Zealot/HT I click + storm
* - M is move, but I am not telling you to click m. I am saying right-click to move here
This covers the majority of the opening of a successful battle imo, and this is all stuff you can practice if you just make a quick UMS, or hell, as I said, you can think of the doodads on FS as Siege Tank clusters and practice that way. You said "micro Dragoons" and yea, that often comes after this for me, and it is just drag+dropping to unclump. I think the most important part of PvT engagements is 1. not taking bad ones (when they are sieged up and spread out), 2. knowing when to back off (when you lost all of your Zealots and they still have a respectable army left).
TL;DR: There is certainly a lot of things you can potentially do in an engagement, but if you follow a uniform pattern for them, and use distance to "preprogram" certain actions, it will look like you have/need 600 apm but in reality it's just good timing and maybe 100-200 APM in a short burst.
EDIT: Just saw you talking about VODs. Recommend this resource:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1okfcEMbdxb9NxdcduNTipdcK27qq3070vYFXNgdnUPo/edit#gid=381685913
Click on "BIsu" tab on the bottom. The second column, where it says "korhal" are where the YouTube links are. To the right of this column you will see build orders that were used in that video. This will help you pinpoint which VODs to watch! For example, to the above query I would recommend #49 vs. Rush (from the recommended list at the bottom).
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I feel like a broken record, thanking everyone in every post I write, but hey x) Just know that I really appreciate all your detailled help!
The 600 apm was an overexaggaration of Course, but I see your Point. I honestly think one of my biggest Problems in an open PvT fight is closely tied to one of my macro Problem, which is: not making enough production Buildings/Units. Even after taking a third base I'm often still at 3 Gates because I want to do so much other stuff, like tech, attack, defend attacks, etc. So once I actually have an army Count that can rival the Terrans, Things might not look as dire anymore with the Micro. Also another Thing I noticed is that I still have Zealots ATTACK the tanks, instead of MOVING them right infront the tanks, and this way they often stop and try to defuse mines instead of dragging them -.-
About the VoDs though, I think you misunderstood what I meant. I wanted to ask if there is a thread etc. where I can post MY vods and have other People critizise them?
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On August 26 2017 01:50 SartPls wrote: I feel like a broken record, thanking everyone in every post I write, but hey x) Just know that I really appreciate all your detailled help!
The 600 apm was an overexaggaration of Course, but I see your Point. I honestly think one of my biggest Problems in an open PvT fight is closely tied to one of my macro Problem, which is: not making enough production Buildings/Units. Even after taking a third base I'm often still at 3 Gates because I want to do so much other stuff, like tech, attack, defend attacks, etc. So once I actually have an army Count that can rival the Terrans, Things might not look as dire anymore with the Micro. Also another Thing I noticed is that I still have Zealots ATTACK the tanks, instead of MOVING them right infront the tanks, and this way they often stop and try to defuse mines instead of dragging them -.-
About the VoDs though, I think you misunderstood what I meant. I wanted to ask if there is a thread etc. where I can post MY vods and have other People critizise them?
If you are attack-clicking ON the Tanks, then they should drag the mines anyway. You must be a-moving on the way there instead of regular move.
As far as macro, having 3 Gates on 3 base can actually be normal for certain scenarios. In others it is a disaster. The key is having an Observer over the Terran's Factories to see what his Factory count is. Your Gateway could should be ~1.5x his Factory count in order to have comparable macro. This means you sometimes have to delay your 3rd to not die, or until your Observer sees his Factory count.
As for posting your own VODs, I provided a link to explain how to handle this at the top of the previous post. Replays are usually recommended though, because people can move around the camera freely and speedup/slowdown easy, etc. Later in my post, I was referring to your response to Gecko, where I think it was implied that you would be looking at pro VODs to learn how to handle situations? If not, I apologize xD
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oooh, now I get it with the link, my bad!
And yeah, I meant replays, not VoDs, sorry
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If you guys would like to have a look at some replays to provide some additional help, I made a new thread for that: www.teamliquid.net
Would love to hear some of your opinions!
Edit: I tried to follow Jealous' advice from the other thread and analyzed the mistakes that I could spot for myself first, and listed them
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On August 26 2017 01:50 SartPls wrote:
The 600 apm was an overexaggaration of Course, but I see your Point. I honestly think one of my biggest Problems in an open PvT fight is closely tied to one of my macro Problem, which is: not making enough production Buildings/Units. Even after taking a third base I'm often still at 3 Gates because I want to do so much other stuff, like tech, attack, defend attacks, etc. So once I actually have an army Count that can rival the Terrans, Things might not look as dire anymore with the Micro.
What I did to solve the gate problem was that: Every game I tried to have 1 spare probe, Probe-the-Builder. I was having it around my gates and at the end of every macro round I would use it to build one more gateway. So it would look this way: I'm on 5 gates. So I clickD clickD clickD clickD clickD and after hiring 5 dragoons I build a gateway. By the next macro round I'm already on 6 gates and after having hired 6 goons I'm building a 7th gate... The positioning of your pylons matters a lot, so organize them nicely, so that you don't have to worry about building placement later.. Also with low APM try to macro more than micro. Like, 1a2a3a and back to your base, building and hiring units. Or if it's late game and you have hts/arbs then throw storms/stasises, 1a2a3a and back to the gateways. Try not to look at your units fighting for too long, or not at all. Minimap is very helpful
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Choose Terran. PvZ is a write off
User was temp banned for this post.
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Hey Guys, based on all the great advice I got here and mixed with some of the info from Liquipedia Build orders etc., I made Kind of a "flow Chart" to help me mark and remembered core concepts without having to stick blindly to build orders. Let me know if I missed out on anything common, maybe it can help other newer Toss Players too if it's correct:
Underlying concept:
- Early, timed Aggression with +1 Speedlots - Transition into preferred unit mix while maxing out - Transition into late game "Deathball" of Zealots, Goons, HTs, Archons, Corsairs - In the Ultra late game, add Reavers to the mix and/or Transition into Carriers if possible
Basic Skeleton build:
- Start of FFE, order of Buildings depends on scouting info - Gas -> Cyber -> Citadel - > Gate 2+3 -> Assi 2 -> Attack when Legspeed and +1 Ground Weapons finish
Depending on what your Opponent does, this Basic build has to be adapted:
vs 5 Pool: Pull Probes to stall for Cannons to warp in, possibly Pylon + Cannons in main
vs Hydra Bust: Add Cannons for 4 or more to your wall-in, delay Zealots/Upgrades to rush Storm
vs Muta Bust: 2 Cannons in Main, 1 in Natural Minerals, rush Sairs and Archons (in order of priority)
vs Lurker Bust: Add Cannons to your wall-in, rush Observers and Storm (in order of priority)
--
During or slighty after your attack, either go for air superiority with 2x Stargate, Templar Archives, DT and Sairs,
or expand with Templar Archives, DT + 2 HTs, Gate 4+5, Storm, 5 Goons and a Probe cut followed by
vs Lurkers: Robo, Observatory, Nexus, resume Probes, Gates 6, 7 and 8
vs no Lurkers: Nexus, resume Probes, Gates 6, 7 and 8, Robo, Obs
--
Late-game "Counters":
vs Ultralisk/Zergling hordes: Add DTs + Sairs to your deathball, since he can't threaten Sairs, so they can snipe the detection for DTs. If he LETS you, add Carriers
vs Defilers: Add Reavers to be able to shoot into Dark Swarm
Is this correct? Did I miss out on something? Is any of the info outdated? etc.
And thanks again for the replies already
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I'm a little confused at the order to spend your gas in the Neo Bisu build listed on Liquipedia. The order on the build is Stargate -> Citadel -> +1 Air -> +1 Ground. Is this correct? I always thought +1 Ground was higher priority than Citadel and +1 Air.
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If you're going sair heavy, you're focused more on that at first, so you'd want that +1 air weapons to hit moreso than +1 ground, as you're going to be utilizing your sairs first.
Just depends on what build you're using and what it's trying to accomplish.
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