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Hello friends
I have opened this thread because I think this has not been hammered out for us non-gods and the only other thread I saw on the topic was from 2006. Not to hate on 2006--It was a great year, I'm sure.
The questions are as follows:
In match up X, considering standard play, when is it appropriate to upgrade observer speed?
In match up X, considering standard play, when it is appropriate to upgrade observer sight range?
In match up X, what will delay or force you to prioritize either upgrade?
I don't think there are too many right answers so there are therefore many valid, wrong answers and I'd love to hear everything in between.
Will update OP if some one lays down the shit.
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Observer speed is almost always better to get first compared to observer range. You want to be able to retreat obs from scourge/hydra/muta/spore quickly, and in both PvT and PvZ keeps the observer/army from needing incessant babysitting to stay together.
Upgrading sight range I generally don't think is a huge deal, but it's eventually nice to have. I'd say after you have a solid three bases and all key tech out then worry about that upgrade.
Speed is a little trickier. If you're newer or not as good at babysitting armies getting it close to straightaway once you get obs usually isn't a bad idea. Otherwise if you can hold off in PvT or PvP until you have 3 bases and tech that's probably the idea time, where getting the upgrade is more or less non disruptive to the other elements of your gameplan.
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On September 12 2017 02:58 L_Master wrote: Observer speed is almost always better to get first compared to observer range. You want to be able to retreat obs from scourge/hydra/muta/spore quickly, and in both PvT and PvZ keeps the observer/army from needing incessant babysitting to stay together.
Upgrading sight range I generally don't think is a huge deal, but it's eventually nice to have. I'd say after you have a solid three bases and all key tech out then worry about that upgrade.
Speed is a little trickier. If you're newer or not as good at babysitting armies getting it close to straightaway once you get obs usually isn't a bad idea. Otherwise if you can hold off in PvT or PvP until you have 3 bases and tech that's probably the idea time, where getting the upgrade is more or less non disruptive to the other elements of your gameplan.
This is pretty much the way I have approached it thus far. I will generally get observer speed asap in PvT because I feel like I need more detection coverage for mines and I don't want to have the observers lag behind the dragoons. In PvZ, I will generally get observer speed when I can comfortably afford it, even if I am facing a player who is trying to snipe obs with clever overlord/scourge play.
I am just not sure if this is correct because I have never heard a hard and fast rule.
edit: but when it comes to observer sight range, I am still at a total loss
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I find in watching my replays that more often than not, I just neglect the observer sight range altogether even though it boosts the only purpose of a mainstay unit in every matchup. I guess I just need to remind myself
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In PvT if you attack move with a control group of dragons and a observer and don't watch them the dragons will walk into mines and die because the observer can't keep up with them. I usually get this upgrade at 3 bases because less than that I only have a smaller group of dragons I am comfortable babysitting.
In PvZ I get speed right after I see lurkers.
Orbs range is a mystery to me because I don't even know if it's useful
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In PvT you want to prioritize getting tech as fast as possible (either arbiters, carriers, or HT) so you should optimally not get obs speed until after you have your ideal tech + upgrades. I don't remember a single game where pros rush to obs speed, but Bonyth (who's the best foreign P atm) prioritizes it in PvT all the time, so it's not like it's that bad to get early. Imo, obs sight range is good but should be one of the last upgrades you get in PvT (i.e. you should be maxed w/ your desired army comp w/ other necessary upgrades either researching or already completed).
In PvZ I'd say speed is still better because it allows you to dodge scourge more easily. If you want to maximize the utility of obs speed in PvZ you should bind all your obs to a single hotkey so that you don't fly them into Hydra or Spore range carelessly. Sight range should only be upgraded in the extreme late game if you have the bank + desired unit comp + more important upgrades.
In PvP I could be completely wrong about this, but I don't think either observer upgrade is too important.
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For me obs sight range is way more useful than speed. Speed is useless.
If you get speed and amove, the obs will a) run into turrets and die before your army comes making it run into the minefield, b) run so fast that it outruns the goons clearing mines, getting them killed. c) you'll have to spend apm to micro the fucking obs, of all things, instead of doing something useful
I find that I have to babysit the army less if I get sight than speed. Plus, with sight you can see further behind turrets, making clearing mines and planning attack paths easier, and it sees more of the map, so you have better vision and need to make less obs, saving you money. It also researches faster
For pvz range is also more important imo. You want to see those lurkers from further away, instead of having to micro obs. Speed is not bad for dodging scourge though.
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On September 12 2017 04:47 quirinus wrote: For me obs sight range is way more useful than speed. Speed is useless.
If you get speed and amove, the obs will a) run into turrets and die before your army comes making it run into the minefield, b) run so fast that it outruns the goons clearing mines, getting them killed. c) you'll have to spend apm to micro the fucking obs, of all things, instead of doing something useful
I find that I have to babysit the army less if I get sight than speed. Plus, with sight you can see further behind turrets, making clearing mines and planning attack paths easier, and it sees more of the map, so you have better vision and need to make less obs, saving you money. It also researches faster
For pvz range is also more important imo. You want to see those lurkers from further away, instead of having to micro obs. Speed is not bad for dodging scourge though.
Wow I have never heard of anyone arguing for range>speed before. I guess there is a first time for everything.
Dragoons aren't that slow, so they should be able to keep up with the observer for the most part unless they stop to attack or there is something obstructing their movement. But obs with no speed will definitely lag behind dragoons, and then you get your goons running into mines.
Also I don't know how many people do this, but I always have like at least 5 obs on the map at all times, especially in pvt. I keep an obs in their base to watch factory count, another right at their entrance, 2 with my army (two control groups of dragoons with obs constantly clearing mines around the map), and another 1 or 2 around the map over important paths. I really like to be in total control of the map and having vision everywhere.
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in pvt after you make arround 5 observers (1 at factorys, 1 at choke point, 1 at 3rd or vulture path, 4 other side of vulture path and 5th with your goon) you tech to arbiters, you can skip speed until terran gets super annyoing with vultures or when too much shit is happening around the map and you dont want to lose goons for free walking in the middle of a mine field.
also acording to a korean friend that used to be a trainee for CJ entus, sight is better. so i guess it comes to taste...
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I upgrade speed only PvT and sometimes, usually if you have enough obs you don't really need the speed, as your OBS should be already positioned when you move goons (I don't group them together)
PvZ I sometimes update range, vs Z's who are just playing mass defense, with spores and lurkers, this will allow you to see and target lurkers, and if you have a sizeable army you can move the obs back enough vs Scourges and so on...
PvP never.
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On September 12 2017 04:47 quirinus wrote: For me obs sight range is way more useful than speed. Speed is useless.
If you get speed and amove, the obs will a) run into turrets and die before your army comes making it run into the minefield, b) run so fast that it outruns the goons clearing mines, getting them killed. c) you'll have to spend apm to micro the fucking obs, of all things, instead of doing something useful
I find that I have to babysit the army less if I get sight than speed. Plus, with sight you can see further behind turrets, making clearing mines and planning attack paths easier, and it sees more of the map, so you have better vision and need to make less obs, saving you money. It also researches faster
For pvz range is also more important imo. You want to see those lurkers from further away, instead of having to micro obs. Speed is not bad for dodging scourge though. Unless you're lean on observers, one grouped with your army, another on follow command, and perhaps even a third on it's own hotkey should make it pretty trivial to always have one in the right place for mine clearing.
I don't think it should be an issue. It takes like 5 extra APM to control an observer while mine clearing.
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On September 12 2017 10:38 XenOsky- wrote: in pvt after you make arround 5 observers (1 at factorys, 1 at choke point, 1 at 3rd or vulture path, 4 other side of vulture path and 5th with your goon) you tech to arbiters, you can skip speed until terran gets super annyoing with vultures or when too much shit is happening around the map and you dont want to lose goons for free walking in the middle of a mine field.
also acording to a korean friend that used to be a trainee for CJ entus, sight is better. so i guess it comes to taste...
Exactly...
Especially in PvT in my opinion sight is incredibly important. When it comes to turret/goliath range I always feel like sight is needed more ugently than speed.
[QUOTE]On September 12 2017 05:48 JungleTerrain wrote: [QUOTE]On September 12 2017 04:47 quirinus wrote: Also I don't know how many people do this, but I always have like at least 5 obs on the map at all times, especially in pvt. I keep an obs in their base to watch factory count, another right at their entrance, 2 with my army (two control groups of dragoons with obs constantly clearing mines around the map), and another 1 or 2 around the map over important paths. I really like to be in total control of the map and having vision everywhere. [/QUOTE]
That's your argument for range right there
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On September 12 2017 04:47 quirinus wrote: For me obs sight range is way more useful than speed.
This. I learned the supremacy of sight range during the era of one base PvZ when you got lurker contained with scourges and overlords in front of your nat on almost every game. It's easy to think that speed would be better, but experiences proved it otherwise for me. The extra range is huge.
After that I tried sight range first on PvT as well and found it way better.
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Honestly, it depends on your skill level, if you're bad 2k or below, ranged is probably better, if you're good then speed is probably better.
Think of BW as a game of action optimization for a second, yes speed is objectively better because you can run away from stuff, but range accomplishes some of the same need (staying away from stuff without the extra micro. Every action you take in bw especially at a low level should require your opponent to take more counter actions than what you took to set up the situation, this gives you more time to macro and micro other things and reduces the chances that you get so distracted that you forget a production round or a critical upgrade while also increasing the chances of your opp forgetting.
Also, if you're below 2k, your macro (like mine) is probably bad enough that you can grab the upgrade at any time because you'll be floating at least that much money and gas.
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On September 16 2017 23:09 Eywa- wrote: Honestly, it depends on your skill level, if you're bad 2k or below, ranged is probably better, if you're good then speed is probably better.
Think of BW as a game of action optimization for a second, yes speed is objectively better because you can run away from stuff, but range accomplishes some of the same need (staying away from stuff without the extra micro. Every action you take in bw especially at a low level should require your opponent to take more counter actions than what you took to set up the situation, this gives you more time to macro and micro other things and reduces the chances that you get so distracted that you forget a production round or a critical upgrade while also increasing the chances of your opp forgetting.
Also, if you're below 2k, your macro (like mine) is probably bad enough that you can grab the upgrade at any time because you'll be floating at least that much money and gas.
Want to be situation specific or you're saying speed first is always better? What about the inside info from CJ?
What you're forgetting, that with range in pvz your observers cannot be sniped if you have good control, since no overlord is getting range first. With range upgrade your observer does not need to go in front of your army, it can be above your army, and overlord cannot see it with inferior range. Area coverage without observer range = ~254,5 Area coverage with observer range = ~380
(overlord no range ~254,5)
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honestly, I think it's a preference issue, it seems more important that you manage your obs well (in micro/positionning and in number of obs), then the ob upgrades may have less priority than other upgrades but both worth it, you can get it or not get it, depending on your style.. either of them. It seems that way doesn't it? If you forget to get them at all even though you get a longer game going, it's probably a mistake. If you tend to make mistakes with your obs or just want to play a more efficient game with obs early, you can get one of them early... for example I have seen a korean streamer play P vs T with early lot of goons and a few obs with early speed upgrade and really sweeping across the map to remove mines and chase/scare vults and own the map. He was also making more goons than usual early. So it complements this playstyle. But if you do more like stork where you want to surround the T hotspots/frontlines and peek at whats behind, maybe for such style its better sight upgrade~~ because there are many ways to play, so in this case I think there is not one upgrade that is clearly better to get first than the other, and at which point in the game you get it... if you want arbiters fast, or perhaps storm, you might not do it at the same timings. So it depends
What I tend to do is get the speed upgrade first somewhere in midgame and often not upgrade sight. I think I scout with my units a bit more. It's interesting playing with those upgrades anyway. Still like the sight upgrade, should try to think of it a bit more^^
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I feel like its situational. I usually upgrade sight in PvT first so that I can be a safe distance from turrets but still get scouting information / detect nearby mines. That's probably just good for hold position though. Speed is tricky because if your control is not perfect, they can still die to turrets so easily. I do get speed against zerg which is pretty much mandatory if you have a tricky lurker contain with OL /scourge mixed in.
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On September 22 2017 11:40 RomeD wrote: I feel like its situational. I usually upgrade sight in PvT first so that I can be a safe distance from turrets but still get scouting information / detect nearby mines. That's probably just good for hold position though. Speed is tricky because if your control is not perfect, they can still die to turrets so easily. I do get speed against zerg which is pretty much mandatory if you have a tricky lurker contain with OL /scourge mixed in. Give sight range a try vs OL/scourge/lurker contain. Zerg can't snipe your observers when his overlord sight is so much smaller, and your observer is over your army rather than ahead of them.
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Thank you very much to all who have recommended obs sight over obs speed first. i have been doing this in all my games and it seems much better. i still go obs speed first in pvp but that is only later because you really can't justify getting either upgrade in pvp until late. i don't agree that you should avoid obs speed because they are faster than the army, though. the utility vs making life difficult i think is a worthwhile trade!
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both upgrades in PvT are useful to maintain map control when you are trying to take your 3rd 4th and 5th base.
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Here is the "pro" answer:
Speed is always first and ASAP. Range is either never upgraded or very late.
For me personally (as anyone who knows me knows I don't necessarily play "correct"), I think the opposite. I firmly believe in range over speed. In pvp it matters a lot less and you can delay the upgrade especially early game because you need gas for reaver, goons, obs, dt, etc etc.
The reason I say sight is better is for a few reasons:
1. I have very low apm. I cannot spend what little apm I have to babysit dumb dragoons AND obs. People will argue that for this reason speed is actually better but in my humble opinion, they are wrong. If you take 11 dragoons and 1 obs and "a move", you will notice the speed obs will run ahead of everything and die to turret, goliath, scourge, hydras+lords, etc etc. If you move short distances (emphasis on short distances, not across the damn map), you will notice that even though your obs won't be ahead, it will have enough "sight" to see any mines and etc.
2. The range is more useful in scouting purposes. Instead of having 2-3 obs in an enemy base, you can just have 1 and see the majority of their base. If you place a few obs around map to see stuff coming, it will help in that regard as well. It also outranges turrets so you will be able to scout the opponent without him even seeing that you have an obs there.
3. In PvZ people argue that the zerg can snipe the obs. That is true. However, to me it's the lesser of 2 evils. I'd prefer to be able to see the lurkers from far away, and send storms and dragoons to try and bust then to keep running the obs back and forth. Since the obs is further back (even though it's slower), it will require the scourge or whatever to come right into contact with your army to try and snipe.
There's a lot more but I'm not high right now so I'm not at 100% mental capacity and I'm also at work. Any questions feel free to message me or reply.
Thanks.
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Personally I get speed fairly quick in PvT as it's cheaper to upgrade it than to loose goons to mines. In PvZ however i tend to upgrade sight first to increase vision of lurker fields when zergs are turtling with spores, but then we're speaking mid/late-game unless I opt to bust to avoid longer games.
In PvP I only upgrade if arbiters come into play.
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in PvZ, Observer sight range helps a lot vs lurker compositions, so actually I would say that the range is far more important in PvZ than any other match up, it actually could not be used in other matchups, there are really only specific reasons / situations you would get Obs sight range in a PvT or PvP, and most of them involve the very late game / unorthodox situations.
In PvZ late game, the obs speed will help your observers keep up with your army so you don't accidentally walk into a field of lurkers while macroing at home, and also just to keep the obs at the head of the army.
in PvT, it will help keep your goons from accidentally walking through minefields while not 'babysitting' your goons, as others have stated, although I wouldn't say it is that easy with or without Obs speed, to not have to babysit your goons, even with observer speed the observers can move too fast and the Dragoons can move in / out of range of the spider mine before the Dragoon is able to kill the mine, in which case it may end up taking damage.
In short, observer speed helps a lot in PvT and PvZ, but you still have to be weary of the timing / how fast the observer is moving, because they actually move really fast with speed, if you are one of the Protoss who rarely ever gets observer upgrades (I only get obs range vs lurker contains / mass ground / suspected drop play later on while I take a 4th maybe), it will take you a little longer to get used to playing with the Observer speed.
EDIT : Damn, I can't believe I never thought of getting Obs sight range in late game PvP when arbiters come into play, that is really smart Dr.Shrinker, I actually feel dumb for playing BW for so long and I never thought of that lol
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On September 12 2017 18:30 InDi wrote: I upgrade speed only PvT and sometimes, usually if you have enough obs you don't really need the speed, as your OBS should be already positioned when you move goons (I don't group them together)
PvZ I sometimes update range, vs Z's who are just playing mass defense, with spores and lurkers, this will allow you to see and target lurkers, and if you have a sizeable army you can move the obs back enough vs Scourges and so on...
PvP never.
Observer range versus sunken spore lurker is a great idea. More people should do this. Every one knows about observer speed versus scourge, but not about what you mentioned.
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Yeah i think consensus is Speed>Sight PvT, Sight>Speed PvZ, PvT i personally really like getting both with speed first and sight second. PvP i would go for speed if the enemy goes for DT harass play.
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