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I was just watching Effort's stream where he was himself obsing Flash vs Jaedong, and some interesting things happened that made me wonder about some spells:
- Flash blinded 3 of JD's lurkers on a ramp, that were guarded by mutas, then tried to move up the ramp M&M. Doesn't the muta vision make this a completely pointless move? Anyway he lost all of his army there. - At many points JD had to face a large amount of tanks (with 4-5 vults) and he used dark swarm with ultras. Isn't this pointless as well? Tanks deal only splash dmg so ultras will take the full hit anyway. Even if swarm does move the target area, ultras are so large it doesn't matter. It was only really affecting the damage from vultures, which was very little anyway (ultras are large, vults deal concussive, and there were few vults).
Side-note: while googling around, I saw this comment, is it true? Sounds like BS:
Most players don't know that if you stack 2 dark swarms on top of each other even spells/special attacks won't affect lurkers.
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I was watching a stream the other day, PvZ, and the guy turtled with dark archons. When he tried to mind control zerg's units, he splitted dark archons and casted one by one. The thing is, that if you select 12 DA and tell them to cast the spell, only one of them will cast it. Unlike storms, when you may cast up to 12 storms in 1 place by accident.
Probably, they play standart too much, and don't know some neat but useless things about the game.
I've seen the same happen on WC3 streams, when top players wouldn't know hotkeys for rarely-used units and heroes.
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Swarm is always useful, because it helps lings survive, also negates unsieged tanks and vultures. For the blind thing, Flash obviously knew that JD would have vision with mutas, maybe he didn't know about the mutas before commiting or thought he could break anyway
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On November 22 2017 22:33 ortseam wrote: Swarm is always useful, because it helps lings survive, also negates unsieged tanks and vultures. For the blind thing, Flash obviously knew that JD would have vision with mutas, maybe he didn't know about the mutas before commiting or thought he could break anyway It was only ultras + swarm, and about the mutas yeah he saw them 100% and scanned & attacked while they were there
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On November 22 2017 22:52 LG)Sabbath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 22:33 ortseam wrote: Swarm is always useful, because it helps lings survive, also negates unsieged tanks and vultures. For the blind thing, Flash obviously knew that JD would have vision with mutas, maybe he didn't know about the mutas before commiting or thought he could break anyway It was only ultras + swarm, and about the mutas yeah he saw them 100% and scanned & attacked while they were there who won that game ?
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Flash, he lost those MM but took 3 expos and won easily with mech after the ultra/swarm thing I mentioned
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I'm really confused about most of statements in this thread.
- Flash blind: I would have to see the game to understand if Flash didnt see it or maybe he was behind and just wanted to go for it, idk. - Swarm over ultras / lings vs tank / vulture: Swarm gives a huge boost to ultra/ling. As you said, the splash still does some damage, but it's nowhere close to getting a full hit from a tank. Also, when units approach the tanks under swarm, tank shoots will be ahead of them (and usually the 1st line), so units that are behind the 1st line will suffer no dmg - MC with Dark Archons: I'm quite sure that if you select multiple DAs and cast MC they will all cast the spell (if the target is at range when you cast it) - Casting multiple swarms: doesn't change the dmg output or mechanics of dark swarm. What it does though is limiting the vision, so it's much more difficult to for example irradiate the lurkers or to count how many lurkers are under it (for example for a firebat bust)
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"The thing is, that if you select 12 DA and tell them to cast the spell, only one of them will cast it."
Or that one da has 150 mana in the bank and the others don't
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On November 23 2017 00:05 kogeT wrote: - Swarm over ultras / lings vs tank / vulture: Swarm gives a huge boost to ultra/ling. As you said, the splash still does some damage, but it's nowhere close to getting a full hit from a tank. Also, when units approach the tanks under swarm, tank shoots will be ahead of them (and usually the 1st line), so units that are behind the 1st line will suffer no dmg I'm specifically talking about pure ultra vs pure tank, which is what the battle was like in the game. Ultras are large enough that the swarm shot displacement shouldn't help them, but I haven't tested it. Otherwise, tanks do 100% explosive splash dmg which is unaffected by swarm, only displaced.
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- MC with Dark Archons: I'm quite sure that if you select multiple DAs and cast MC they will all cast the spell (if the target is at range when you cast it) No, not really. If the target is far away, they will all move to it, but only one of them (the closest to the target) will cast the spell. So if you have a group of DAs against their carriers, don't think and just spam C click C click C click. No spell will be casted twice upon the same unit, only once. This is probably because you cannot cast MC on your own units, and the spell itself works immediately.
This is also true about Feedback, but only if the enemy caster has enow energy to die from it. It you select 12 archons and cast FB on a full energy ht, only one will cast the spell...
I know one more thing about DAs and their spells, but it is probably the most useless fact about the entire game, and hard to explain too, so I won't bother >.<
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On November 23 2017 00:46 LG)Sabbath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2017 00:05 kogeT wrote: - Swarm over ultras / lings vs tank / vulture: Swarm gives a huge boost to ultra/ling. As you said, the splash still does some damage, but it's nowhere close to getting a full hit from a tank. Also, when units approach the tanks under swarm, tank shoots will be ahead of them (and usually the 1st line), so units that are behind the 1st line will suffer no dmg I'm specifically talking about pure ultra vs pure tank, which is what the battle was like in the game. Ultras are large enough that the swarm shot displacement shouldn't help them, but I haven't tested it. Otherwise, tanks do 100% explosive splash dmg which is unaffected by swarm, only displaced.
You are wrong. Swarm is saving a lot of HP for ultras despite their size.
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On November 23 2017 04:46 kogeT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2017 00:46 LG)Sabbath wrote:On November 23 2017 00:05 kogeT wrote: - Swarm over ultras / lings vs tank / vulture: Swarm gives a huge boost to ultra/ling. As you said, the splash still does some damage, but it's nowhere close to getting a full hit from a tank. Also, when units approach the tanks under swarm, tank shoots will be ahead of them (and usually the 1st line), so units that are behind the 1st line will suffer no dmg I'm specifically talking about pure ultra vs pure tank, which is what the battle was like in the game. Ultras are large enough that the swarm shot displacement shouldn't help them, but I haven't tested it. Otherwise, tanks do 100% explosive splash dmg which is unaffected by swarm, only displaced. You are wrong. Swarm is saving a lot of HP for ultras despite their size. Mind explaining how that's calculated?
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On November 23 2017 00:46 LG)Sabbath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2017 00:05 kogeT wrote: - Swarm over ultras / lings vs tank / vulture: Swarm gives a huge boost to ultra/ling. As you said, the splash still does some damage, but it's nowhere close to getting a full hit from a tank. Also, when units approach the tanks under swarm, tank shoots will be ahead of them (and usually the 1st line), so units that are behind the 1st line will suffer no dmg I'm specifically talking about pure ultra vs pure tank, which is what the battle was like in the game. Ultras are large enough that the swarm shot displacement shouldn't help them, but I haven't tested it. Otherwise, tanks do 100% explosive splash dmg which is unaffected by swarm, only displaced.
I have just tested it. Swarm helps the utlralisk a lot....The shot displacement still works so if you are targeting one ultralisk alone.. As tanks tend to fire the leading ultralisk this will benefit even if you are talking about pure ultralisks.
Now please tell me more about DAs! Thanks for letting us know about the MC trick btw.. stealing carriers now a lot easier!
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On November 22 2017 21:31 LG)Sabbath wrote:
- At many points JD had to face a large amount of tanks (with 4-5 vults) and he used dark swarm with ultras. Isn't this pointless as well? Tanks deal only splash dmg so ultras will take the full hit anyway. Even if swarm does move the target area, ultras are so large it doesn't matter. It was only really affecting the damage from vultures, which was very little anyway (ultras are large, vults deal concussive, and there were few vults).
On November 23 2017 00:46 LG)Sabbath wrote:
I'm specifically talking about pure ultra vs pure tank, which is what the battle was like in the game. Ultras are large enough that the swarm shot displacement shouldn't help them, but I haven't tested it. Otherwise, tanks do 100% explosive splash dmg which is unaffected by swarm, only displaced.
Maybe you shouldn't post stuff as if it was a fact if you're not sure about it... but at least add "I think" or "From what I know"... that should be a given for any situation you're in... unless you intend to deceive people...
And maybe you should change your above posts so that people won't get confused in the future.
Can we agree that:
Sieged tanks do not deal only splash damage, nor do they deal explosive splash damage. They deal explosive damage on the hit-location, and they deal radial splash damage around that hit-location (would be neat if someone could confirm that the splash is not also explosive, Liquidpedia isn't specific here).
Swarm-displacements works perfectly fine even on large units like ultras.
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I read 3 other full threads and reposted things I read there, it's obviously still my opinion, no need to get offended. Also my other post said that I haven't tested it, read again.
On November 23 2017 05:06 HaFnium wrote: I have just tested it. Swarm helps the utlralisk a lot....The shot displacement still works so if you are targeting one ultralisk alone.. As tanks tend to fire the leading ultralisk this will benefit even if you are talking about pure ultralisks.
Now please tell me more about DAs! Thanks for letting us know about the MC trick btw.. stealing carriers now a lot easier! Thank you, I'm still at work so wasn't able to test it myself yet 😊
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I'm not offended, I just try to keep this forum clean of confusing posts.
At the bottom line, there are 2-3 posts in this thread here where you state wrong stuff without relativising it (see your first post about tank damage and ultra-swarm-hit-displacement e.g.)... why not just edit them visibly quickly?
The other thing would just be a nice bonus. It's just a sign of a lack of care for your language (and for your readers) if you say "something is the case" - and then relativise it... just don't say it's the case in the first place or indicate that you're not sure. You use the indicative if you're sure about something - or you have to make clear that you're not beforehand, otherwise there's a fraction in the logical structure of your sentence + Show Spoiler +something like that, it's just improper use of the forms and means that language offers us... ... It's just misleading to say, e.g., "Napoleon was german, but I'm not sure about it"....Better would be to indicate that it's a proposition: "I think Napoleon was german, but..."
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sounds like flash made a mistake or was not in range to see the mutas providing vision for the mm, and swarming ultras vs tank + vult is very good in almost every situation, tanks only deal splash vs ultras under swarm so if ur ultras r spread they will take very little damage
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On November 22 2017 21:31 LG)Sabbath wrote:Side-note: while googling around, I saw this comment, is it true? Sounds like BS: Show nested quote +Most players don't know that if you stack 2 dark swarms on top of each other even spells/special attacks won't affect lurkers.
This is BS, swarm doesn't stack and a spell like storm or yamato will affect units underneath it.
This guy might have gotten confused because if you burrow under a swarm, they are immune to splash damage. So burrowed lurker under swarm takes no damage from a tank.
HOWEVER, if you stacked another lurker on top of a lurker under swarm, one of them will die due to splash received from a tank shot hitting the lurker on top of it.
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On November 23 2017 08:06 razorsuKe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 21:31 LG)Sabbath wrote:Side-note: while googling around, I saw this comment, is it true? Sounds like BS: Most players don't know that if you stack 2 dark swarms on top of each other even spells/special attacks won't affect lurkers. This is BS, swarm doesn't stack and a spell like storm or yamato will affect units underneath it. This guy might have gotten confused because if you burrow under a swarm, they are immune to splash damage. So burrowed lurker under swarm takes no damage from a tank. HOWEVER, if you stacked another lurker on top of a lurker under swarm, one of them will die due to splash received from a tank shot hitting the lurker on top of it. Yeah sounded like BS, just tried it anyway and it's BS
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Norway28263 Posts
just entering to say that shall_burn is right about DA's and that swarm with ultra vs tank gives you a huge boost compared to just ultra.
And that Sabbath is right overall, a lot of players, even top ones, sometimes lack knowledge about rarely used spells and abilities. I'm pretty certain Flash knew that the mutas would still supply vision for the lurkers, though.
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I am quite surprised that you actually thought Jaedong didnt know how dark swarm worked instead of realizing you were the one missing something..
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So how exactly does dark sawrm help ultras vs tanks? Tanks primary attack misses while the attack still hits the ultralisk somewhere else on its body. So its 100% primary damage done, i believe. Splash isnt even reduced in dark swarm. Is it?
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Dark Archons were one of my favourite units, if not the most favourite. When I played more actively some years ago, I would try use them in almost every game. I was a legit D/D+ at the time, but because I had Dark Archons in my army, people would get angry, thinking I'm smurfing and noob bashing. Like, you have to be pr0 g0su to use DAs... Is that how Mind Control really works? Good times, haha
I've also seen a very wierd thing once. A ling with Maelstorm casted on it, could still move. Like, that orange animation is on it, but the ling is running none the less.. I did not save the replay, unfortunately. And later I tried to reproduce this thing under different circumstances, to no effect.
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On November 23 2017 16:51 shall_burn wrote: Dark Archons were one of my favourite units, if not the most favourite. When I played more actively some years ago, I would try use them in almost every game. I was a legit D/D+ at the time, but because I had Dark Archons in my army, people would get angry, thinking I'm smurfing and noob bashing. Like, you have to be pr0 g0su to use DAs... Is that how Mind Control really works? Good times, haha
I've also seen a very wierd thing once. A ling with Maelstorm casted on it, could still move. Like, that orange animation is on it, but the ling is running none the less.. I did not save the replay, unfortunately. And later I tried to reproduce this thing under different circumstances, to no effect.
This is a well known bug with maelstormed units still moving. You can see it in FBH yt video where he shows different bugs. (no link though)
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On November 23 2017 16:47 Foxxan wrote: So how exactly does dark sawrm help ultras vs tanks? Tanks primary attack misses while the attack still hits the ultralisk somewhere else on its body. So its 100% primary damage done, i believe. Splash isnt even reduced in dark swarm. Is it? From my testing it looks like the shot is just displaced, otherwise it works normally. If there are 2 ultras and you hit the one behind, it will hit the one in front 100%, and the one you actually shot will receive the secondary AOE, 50% dmg.
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On November 23 2017 19:41 LG)Sabbath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2017 16:47 Foxxan wrote: So how exactly does dark sawrm help ultras vs tanks? Tanks primary attack misses while the attack still hits the ultralisk somewhere else on its body. So its 100% primary damage done, i believe. Splash isnt even reduced in dark swarm. Is it? From my testing it looks like the shot is just displaced, otherwise it works normally. If there are 2 ultras and you hit the one behind, it will hit the one in front 100%, and the one you actually shot will receive the secondary AOE, 50% dmg. And if you hit the one in front? Or what if there's only one/they're spread out? DS displaces the shot forward so of course hitting the one behind works that way.
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On November 23 2017 18:11 kogeT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2017 16:51 shall_burn wrote: Dark Archons were one of my favourite units, if not the most favourite. When I played more actively some years ago, I would try use them in almost every game. I was a legit D/D+ at the time, but because I had Dark Archons in my army, people would get angry, thinking I'm smurfing and noob bashing. Like, you have to be pr0 g0su to use DAs... Is that how Mind Control really works? Good times, haha
I've also seen a very wierd thing once. A ling with Maelstorm casted on it, could still move. Like, that orange animation is on it, but the ling is running none the less.. I did not save the replay, unfortunately. And later I tried to reproduce this thing under different circumstances, to no effect. This is a well known bug with maelstormed units still moving. You can see it in FBH yt video where he shows different bugs. (no link though) I am so glad this thread has been created. edit: I can't find the video, though. Anyone?
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On November 23 2017 22:58 Sero wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2017 19:41 LG)Sabbath wrote:On November 23 2017 16:47 Foxxan wrote: So how exactly does dark sawrm help ultras vs tanks? Tanks primary attack misses while the attack still hits the ultralisk somewhere else on its body. So its 100% primary damage done, i believe. Splash isnt even reduced in dark swarm. Is it? From my testing it looks like the shot is just displaced, otherwise it works normally. If there are 2 ultras and you hit the one behind, it will hit the one in front 100%, and the one you actually shot will receive the secondary AOE, 50% dmg. And if you hit the one in front? Or what if there's only one/they're spread out? DS displaces the shot forward so of course hitting the one behind works that way. Yeah, if you hit only one ultra, it will receive the 50% dmg part of the shot. The 100% part of the area of effect will hit nothing.
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Stuff that may be practical in vacuum may not be when under high pressure environment too
These pros study the game endlessly and flash for certain knows how optic flare works. He explained in his analysis vs hero
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On November 24 2017 00:04 LG)Sabbath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2017 22:58 Sero wrote:On November 23 2017 19:41 LG)Sabbath wrote:On November 23 2017 16:47 Foxxan wrote: So how exactly does dark sawrm help ultras vs tanks? Tanks primary attack misses while the attack still hits the ultralisk somewhere else on its body. So its 100% primary damage done, i believe. Splash isnt even reduced in dark swarm. Is it? From my testing it looks like the shot is just displaced, otherwise it works normally. If there are 2 ultras and you hit the one behind, it will hit the one in front 100%, and the one you actually shot will receive the secondary AOE, 50% dmg. And if you hit the one in front? Or what if there's only one/they're spread out? DS displaces the shot forward so of course hitting the one behind works that way. Yeah, if you hit only one ultra, it will receive the 50% dmg part of the shot. The 100% part of the area of effect will hit nothing. So against 1ultra with ds, the primary attack misses, and it do splash only? You sure of this?
If you compare it to cliffs, dragoons on high ground vs siegetanks on low ground. The attack "misses" but still hits the dragoon for primary damage. Or maybe iam wrong..
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On November 24 2017 19:57 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2017 00:04 LG)Sabbath wrote:On November 23 2017 22:58 Sero wrote:On November 23 2017 19:41 LG)Sabbath wrote:On November 23 2017 16:47 Foxxan wrote: So how exactly does dark sawrm help ultras vs tanks? Tanks primary attack misses while the attack still hits the ultralisk somewhere else on its body. So its 100% primary damage done, i believe. Splash isnt even reduced in dark swarm. Is it? From my testing it looks like the shot is just displaced, otherwise it works normally. If there are 2 ultras and you hit the one behind, it will hit the one in front 100%, and the one you actually shot will receive the secondary AOE, 50% dmg. And if you hit the one in front? Or what if there's only one/they're spread out? DS displaces the shot forward so of course hitting the one behind works that way. Yeah, if you hit only one ultra, it will receive the 50% dmg part of the shot. The 100% part of the area of effect will hit nothing. So against 1ultra with ds, the primary attack misses, and it do splash only? You sure of this? If you compare it to cliffs, dragoons on high ground vs siegetanks on low ground. The attack "misses" but still hits the dragoon for primary damage. Or maybe iam wrong.. To clarify, the "main attack" is also splash.
Yeah shooting from below a cliff will miss like with dark swarm, sometimes. Sometimes it will deal the 100% dmg, sometimes the 50%. This is the effect of the miss % that people talk about, it's not "miss completely", it's either hit 100%, or 50% in the case of the tank. Just tested this to make sure it's right.
Swarm always "misses" (displaces the target).
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On November 22 2017 21:31 LG)Sabbath wrote: I was just watching Effort's stream where he was himself obsing Flash vs Jaedong, and some interesting things happened that made me wonder about some spells:
- Flash blinded 3 of JD's lurkers on a ramp, that were guarded by mutas, then tried to move up the ramp M&M. Doesn't the muta vision make this a completely pointless move? Anyway he lost all of his army there. Best guess: Since he was bothering to research blind at all, he was probably just fooling around?
- At many points JD had to face a large amount of tanks (with 4-5 vults) and he used dark swarm with ultras. Isn't this pointless as well? Tanks deal only splash dmg so ultras will take the full hit anyway. Even if swarm does move the target area, ultras are so large it doesn't matter. It was only really affecting the damage from vultures, which was very little anyway (ultras are large, vults deal concussive, and there were few vults). No. They are only in the 50% splash radius. So that's a significant reduction. If it is unclear how miss chance works, read this.
Side-note: while googling around, I saw this comment, is it true? Sounds like BS: Show nested quote +Most players don't know that if you stack 2 dark swarms on top of each other even spells/special attacks won't affect lurkers. Obviously bullshit. All DS does is give non-building ground units under it a 100% miss chance for projectile-based attacks… Why can't people ever spent a minute in-game to test something before they start spreading complete nonsense?!
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No. They are only in the 50% splash radius. So that's a significant reduction. If it is unclear how miss chance works, read this. No they aint. You should read the thread, Siegetanks work differently.
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regarding DA mind control, I think the thing is if you have multiple DAs, it's possible that more than one would cast the spell on the same target if you have multiple selected depending on whether more than one of them are going to cast it on the same few frames after you give the order the thing is that the time it takes a DA to actually cast MC is a little bit "random" just like the delay it may take for a templar to cast storm you know depending on how quickly it gets to face exactly the target which is a bit random, depends on is it already in range, is it already facing the right direction, and something like whether the target hasn't changed angle by the time the DA has finished turning to that angle maybe something like that, I've tested this in a UMS where there is a minigame involving multiple DAs with MC,
anyway I guess that's why they'd do a single DA select it's also more precise and handy than having all your DAs start moving when you just want to cast a MC also you want to know which one is going to cast it cause immediately after casting that DA is very vulnerable since it just lost all its shield etc and spamming MC on multiple units with multiple DAs will just result in innefficiency since you can't tell that the previous target will already have actually been MC'd before you cast the next since the thing can have this little random delay further you can actually improve the potential delay if you also make a angle move with your single DA before casting in range etc (like with templars, or arbiters, or most/all casters in the game)
sometimes you will see the DA wait a few seconds to actually cast the instant spell when the target is moving even though the DA is in range and seems to follow the target's angle sometimes if you get it right it will indeed just cast it instantly
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On November 25 2017 17:25 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +No. They are only in the 50% splash radius. So that's a significant reduction. If it is unclear how miss chance works, read this. No they aint. You should read the thread, Siegetanks work differently. If you had actually just skimmed the thread yourself, you'd have realized that multiple people in it stated the exact same thing I did. So I guess you only read the OP, which, as has been established by now, is wrong.
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On November 25 2017 18:54 Freakling wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2017 17:25 Foxxan wrote:No. They are only in the 50% splash radius. So that's a significant reduction. If it is unclear how miss chance works, read this. No they aint. You should read the thread, Siegetanks work differently. If you had actually just skimmed the thread yourself, you'd have realized that multiple people in it stated the exact same thing I did. So I guess you only read the OP, which, as has been established by now, is wrong. I quote you and i only read the OP? Logic fails here aswell. I read your pathetic link, and there i found proof that you are wrong. Also in my quote to your last point is proof.
You dont know wtf you are talking about? Siegetanks CAN SOMETIMTES DO 100% damage.
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So maybe you should explain in detail then how you think the interaction between Tanks, Ultras and Dark Swarms work, so we are at least on the same page. Only if flinging insults my way is not the only thing you want to get out of this conversation, of course.
So let's back this up with some solid math behind it. I actually looked at some of the OpenBW code and had confirmation from Tscmoo regarding some mechanics, so this is hopefully accurate.
Weapon splash radii (100%/50%/25%, in pixels [px]) can be found at BWAPI. Unit sizes are listed in Liquipdedia. The centre of a unit is generally the mid point of the collision box, rounded up to integer value. A unit takes splash damage according to the highest splash radius its collision box overlaps with. Acording to the OpenBw code, miss Chance offset actually seems to be just 30px, not 32 as I stated in the linked post (will correct that later). It also turns out that point of impact calculations for bullet_type_appear_at_target_unit-attacks (like Siege Tanks) are actually a bit complicated as they come with a default offset, which seems to be 1/4 collision box size (as far as I understand the OpenBW code).
So let's consider the worst case scenario: the point sticking furthest out from an Ultralisk is its top left corner which is (-20,-17) pixels offset from its centre position. Shots coming from the exact angle of the diagonal would hit at (-9.5,-8) offset, so the distance to the corner would be (in the worst case) sqrt( 10.5² + 9² ) ≈ 13.8px . With a 100% splash radius of 10px and a miss chance offset of 30px, the Ultra is comfortably outside the full splash area. On the other hand it is well within the 25px radius for 50% damage. If Tank is straight below the tank, the overlap with the 100% radius is just 7.5+10-30 = -13.5, the overlap with the 25% radius is 7.5+25-32 = 2.5. So again the Ultralisk, in this best case scenario, is taking 50% damage. Only thing that could make a difference is the Ultralisks movement. When it is running in the direction of the tank, the delay between the shot's being fired and the damage being applied could mean that the Ultra gets within the 100% radius in that time (or, conversely, out of the 50% radius when running away from the tank).
EDIT: Empirically Ultralisk can take 100% damage under Dark Swarm, but only if they run diagonally towards the Tank with upgraded speed. It follows the interesting fact that Zerg players can avoid damage from tank fire by chosing vertical or horizontal attack vectors.
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Good analysis. Man, this topic can really get people worked up.
A lot of the misunderstandings in this thread could be avoided with more reading and better wording. Your original statement was a bit vague so I guess it was not interpreted how you wanted.
Ultralisks can also receive 100% dmg if some other unit is hit behind it.
On cliffs (no swarm), they can sometimes get hit for 100% by themselves.
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On November 25 2017 18:11 ProMeTheus112 wrote: regarding DA mind control, I think the thing is if you have multiple DAs, it's possible that more than one would cast the spell on the same target if you have multiple selected depending on whether more than one of them are going to cast it on the same few frames after you give the order the thing is that the time it takes a DA to actually cast MC is a little bit "random" just like the delay it may take for a templar to cast storm you know depending on how quickly it gets to face exactly the target which is a bit random, depends on is it already in range, is it already facing the right direction, and something like whether the target hasn't changed angle by the time the DA has finished turning to that angle maybe something like that, I've tested this in a UMS where there is a minigame involving multiple DAs with MC,
anyway I guess that's why they'd do a single DA select it's also more precise and handy than having all your DAs start moving when you just want to cast a MC also you want to know which one is going to cast it cause immediately after casting that DA is very vulnerable since it just lost all its shield etc and spamming MC on multiple units with multiple DAs will just result in innefficiency since you can't tell that the previous target will already have actually been MC'd before you cast the next since the thing can have this little random delay further you can actually improve the potential delay if you also make a angle move with your single DA before casting in range etc (like with templars, or arbiters, or most/all casters in the game)
sometimes you will see the DA wait a few seconds to actually cast the instant spell when the target is moving even though the DA is in range and seems to follow the target's angle sometimes if you get it right it will indeed just cast it instantly From my personal experience, spamming always did the job quicker than cloning. And then you don't have to check their mana... But I may see how cloning has its uses and advantages too
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On November 26 2017 05:23 LG)Sabbath wrote: Good analysis. Man, this topic can really get people worked up.
A lot of the misunderstandings in this thread could be avoided with more reading and better wording. Your original statement was a bit vague so I guess it was not interpreted how you wanted.
Ultralisks can also receive 100% dmg if some other unit is hit behind it.
On cliffs (no swarm), they can sometimes get hit for 100% by themselves. Well, target firing and cliff miss chance are not really on-topic though (and apply to all Units, not just Ultras). The claim made in the OP was that Dark Swarm was useless for Ultras against Tanks in any case because of their size, which is clearly not the case.
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Many Protoss don't know how to properly cast stasis from Arbiter in PvT ... this is for sure! Many pro too use it wrong imho!
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Rough representation of how much damage tanks can deal to an Ultranabolisk, moving from right to left under Dark Swarm, depending on which sector they are firing from:
Exact numbers/angles are probably far off. I may add better graphics once I have confirmed the exact basic stats.
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On November 26 2017 06:38 Xeln4g4 wrote: Many Protoss don't know how to properly cast stasis from Arbiter in PvT ... this is for sure! Many pro too use it wrong imho! Freeze tanks in the back? Or how?
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On November 26 2017 18:38 shall_burn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2017 06:38 Xeln4g4 wrote: Many Protoss don't know how to properly cast stasis from Arbiter in PvT ... this is for sure! Many pro too use it wrong imho! Freeze tanks in the back? Or how? Sometimes you just gotta try to cast the ones you can Usually some is better than nothing!
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On November 26 2017 06:38 Xeln4g4 wrote: Many Protoss don't know how to properly cast stasis from Arbiter in PvT ... this is for sure! Many pro too use it wrong imho!
They sure know how to use. It's just the pressure/presence of science vessel that can make it more demanding. It is far better to cast it anyway than get EMP-ed.
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I thought this was gonna be about Storm damage ticks (which I don't understand either)
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On November 26 2017 08:46 Freakling wrote:Rough representation of how much damage tanks can deal to an Ultranabolisk, moving from right to left under Dark Swarm, depending on which sector they are firing from: Exact numbers/angles are probably far off. I may add better graphics once I have confirmed the exact basic stats. Props to you sir! Also, Ultranabolisk - such a great word.
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On November 23 2017 08:06 razorsuKe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 21:31 LG)Sabbath wrote:Side-note: while googling around, I saw this comment, is it true? Sounds like BS: Most players don't know that if you stack 2 dark swarms on top of each other even spells/special attacks won't affect lurkers. This is BS, swarm doesn't stack and a spell like storm or yamato will affect units underneath it. This guy might have gotten confused because if you burrow under a swarm, they are immune to splash damage. So burrowed lurker under swarm takes no damage from a tank. HOWEVER, if you stacked another lurker on top of a lurker under swarm, one of them will die due to splash received from a tank shot hitting the lurker on top of it. Just to clarify this, splash damage immunity from burrowed units is totally independent from dark swarm. Its not a complete immunity to all splash damage however, only the 25% and 50% radius are affected, the 100% damage radius will still apply, even if its burrowed under dark swarm. The thing is, with dark swarm hit displacement, the inner 100% dmage radius from the tank shot won't hit the lurker. So a burrowed lurker under dark swarm, will never take damage from a tank that is directly attacking it. In that case of stacked burrowed lurkers, it would only work if that second lurker isn't exactly stacked in the same spot and is a bit displaced towards the tank firing.
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On November 26 2017 08:46 Freakling wrote:Rough representation of how much damage tanks can deal to an Ultranabolisk, moving from right to left under Dark Swarm, depending on which sector they are firing from: Exact numbers/angles are probably far off. I may add better graphics once I have confirmed the exact basic stats.
Does that mean attacking left to right is the best angle for Ultralisks?
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On November 26 2017 21:53 bITt.mAN wrote: I thought this was gonna be about Storm damage ticks (which I don't understand either) what about it? it just ticks 8 times for 14 dmg at regular intervals I think http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/High_Templar
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On December 02 2017 07:03 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2017 08:46 Freakling wrote:Rough representation of how much damage tanks can deal to an Ultranabolisk, moving from right to left under Dark Swarm, depending on which sector they are firing from: Exact numbers/angles are probably far off. I may add better graphics once I have confirmed the exact basic stats. Does that mean attacking left to right is the best angle for Ultralisks? My guess is that the ultralisk in the picture is running towards the imaginary tank. So if the ultralisk runs from left to right, the 25% zone will be on the left now, and 50% on the right.
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On December 02 2017 17:54 shall_burn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2017 07:03 iopq wrote:On November 26 2017 08:46 Freakling wrote:Rough representation of how much damage tanks can deal to an Ultranabolisk, moving from right to left under Dark Swarm, depending on which sector they are firing from: Exact numbers/angles are probably far off. I may add better graphics once I have confirmed the exact basic stats. Does that mean attacking left to right is the best angle for Ultralisks? My guess is that the ultralisk in the picture is running towards the imaginary tank. So if the ultralisk runs from left to right, the 25% zone will be on the left now, and 50% on the right. Yes. It is best not to be flanked by tanks at about 45° from the front, and it is definitely better to go for the tanks vertically or horizontally rather than diagonally. there is probably also a difference depending on the specific direction, due to rounding errors and the unit position not necessarily being the perfect centre of its collision box. But I'll have to study unit stats and game code more closely to get that accurately modelled.
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