! [G] Mutalisk Guide - Page 4
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AcrossFiveJulys
United States3612 Posts
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houseurmusic
United States544 Posts
On August 31 2007 09:44 ArC_man wrote: I wanted to address this point as well. I've actually been messing around with Muta vs Scourge for a bit and I've been able to pretty much get results like the pros (instead of mutas being around 2 muta length away from the scourge, I can get the muta to turn around and hit the scourge at around 3/4 muta length away and still be able to run away safely from the rest of the pack). I think the Chinese technique is the basis of what pros use but they are missing one little key that seem to make the muta attack faster, the position of the patrol click. When I was dicking around with the a muta vs scourge map, it seemed to me that the muta attack much faster if you patrol click close to them (close as in really close, almost right on the mutas). Try this on the muta vs scourge maps: once you do the 1st click (~90 degrees) to make the muta turn, immediately p+click just behind the mutas themselves and you'll find that the mutas almost instantly turn, attack and are free to move again instead of making a small loop. I actually found this out cause I tried to individually target each scourge (with patrol... I was being stupid -.-zz). The GG.net technique doesn't seem to work for me cause the mutas take a lot more time to accelerate if you don't guide them by turning them. I think the key points really to the micro is turning (getting the muta to turn a bit first so they don't slow down), and positioning of the click so they attack as fast as possible. Edit: About the part of muta vs hydra, the point of muta vs hydra isn't for mutas to kill the hydras cause straight up hydras will beat mutas. The point is for the mutas to take the damage while your ground ling army rapes his hydras. Mutaling isn't about mutas killing stuff, it's about lings owning stuff up cause they're so imbalanced and do too much damage. I also made a little clip of muta vs scourge. It's basically the Chinese technique but applied for scourge at close distance. I tried to let the scourge get as close as possible so I could demonstrate it but I suck so I got hit a lot... hopefully it shows what I was trying to say http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=7CFD2A5B265CED16 You'll see that patrol close up works a lot better on scourge that are closer to you but against scourge that are farther away your mutas will just turn around and act stupid (I do it in the video) so I think patrol closer to the mutas when the scourge are close and farther away when the scourge are farther should do the trick. The technique where you patrol click just infrtont of the mutas then click back in the same direction doesn't work on a scorge that has targetted you. It just works vs a scouge that was a click near you and is following you now. Last night I was practicing the chinese triangle on that scourge map and I think I got it down, but I haven't been able to try it in any live 1:1 games. Will the chinese triangle work on scourges that are targeted on your mutas? Arc_man will you be on tonight? I would like a partner to practice this with, escpicially since I will be bored of my ass with no iccup. | ||
BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
If you watch GGPlay's games vs either Iris or Flash, I can't remember, you can see him doing his muta control somewhat weirdly. He has a large bunch of mutas there, it's likely 11, and he either uses Hold or attack-move to attack with them. Doing so he's able to attack multiple rines per raid, killing 2-3 in a strike. Crazy stuff, but I'm not exactly sure on how it's done. | ||
tKd_
United States2916 Posts
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tKd_
United States2916 Posts
On September 01 2007 18:33 BluzMan wrote: A really nice guide, although I've got something to add. If you watch GGPlay's games vs either Iris or Flash, I can't remember, you can see him doing his muta control somewhat weirdly. He has a large bunch of mutas there, it's likely 11, and he either uses Hold or attack-move to attack with them. Doing so he's able to attack multiple rines per raid, killing 2-3 in a strike. Crazy stuff, but I'm not exactly sure on how it's done. This is very common with all pro-gamers now. You need like 11 mutas or you won't be able to get double kills. All it is is pressing hold position. Doesn't work too well on battlenet however, tho its simply killer on hamachi/lan. | ||
ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1178 Posts
On September 01 2007 09:03 houseurmusic wrote: I wanted to address this point as well. I've actually been messing around with Muta vs Scourge for a bit and I've been able to pretty much get results like the pros (instead of mutas being around 2 muta length away from the scourge, I can get the muta to turn around and hit the scourge at around 3/4 muta length away and still be able to run away safely from the rest of the pack). I think the Chinese technique is the basis of what pros use but they are missing one little key that seem to make the muta attack faster, the position of the patrol click. When I was dicking around with the a muta vs scourge map, it seemed to me that the muta attack much faster if you patrol click close to them (close as in really close, almost right on the mutas). Try this on the muta vs scourge maps: once you do the 1st click (~90 degrees) to make the muta turn, immediately p+click just behind the mutas themselves and you'll find that the mutas almost instantly turn, attack and are free to move again instead of making a small loop. I actually found this out cause I tried to individually target each scourge (with patrol... I was being stupid -.-zz). The technique where you patrol click just infrtont of the mutas then click back in the same direction doesn't work on a scorge that has targetted you. It just works vs a scouge that was a click near you and is following you now. Of course it works on scourges that are attacking you too, it's just that even if you kill one the next one might catch up. But the chinese triangle is even worse in that matter as it wastes more time standing still/moving in the wrong direction. To this date there is not one single technique, lan nor bnet, not even in progaming, that allows you to do a fully moving shot at a target behind you without losing any space at all. That however is not an issue unless the scourges are stacked up, as those closest to catching up will be the ones who die. | ||
houseurmusic
United States544 Posts
On September 02 2007 02:13 ZerG~LegenD wrote: Of course it works on scourges that are attacking you too, it's just that even if you kill one the next one might catch up. But the chinese triangle is even worse in that matter as it wastes more time standing still/moving in the wrong direction. To this date there is not one single technique, lan nor bnet, not even in progaming, that allows you to do a fully moving shot at a target behind you without losing any space at all. That however is not an issue unless the scourges are stacked up, as those closest to catching up will be the ones who die. Actually if you do the chinese triangle it correctly it almost does look like the mutas never stop moving. The good thing about the triangle is not only do the mutas attack so quickly it is that the movements trick the scourge'S (jk) AI into moving the wrong direction giving you more space. | ||
Regentropfen
Germany277 Posts
imo it is NOT advisable to get 3 armor before any attack upgrade, imo the right upgrade-order is armor-attack-armor (after that its most likely greater spire, devourers and so on) the second armor IS more useful then the 1st attack upgrade, but the cost-difference is too big to make the 2nd armor effective in most cases (it may be cost-effective if both of u build up somewhat like 3 groups of muta) | ||
ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1178 Posts
On September 02 2007 03:21 houseurmusic wrote: The good thing about the triangle is not only do the mutas attack so quickly it is that the movements trick the scourge'S (jk) AI into moving the wrong direction giving you more space. No, the silly scourge ai will appear no matter what technique you use, but only vs poorly microed scourges. A well microed scourge do not sugger from silly ai, no matter the techniqure you use. The chinese triangle (at least the orginal variant, executed at the speed of the orginal video) means you has to fly towards the scourge for a short period of time. If the scourges aren't microed you're fine, their ai will screw up and they too will turn around. But if the scourges are microed they will NOT turn around and you will die. | ||
Chill
Calgary25938 Posts
Made the following updates: (GENERAL - TARGETING) To add to this, fight_or_flight asks "I have a question....sometimes I just tell the mutas to hold behind a mineral line that is hard to defend, but they end up just sitting there, not attacking. Is it because they have been hit by a unit that is out of range? Any solutions?" Yes, if there are enemy fighting units around, your Mutalisks will not attack any non-fighting units or buildings until those fighting units are out of range or dead. This is why giving Mutalisks targets is so important. (VS ZERG - UPGRADES) Mutalisks are meant to take damage while Zerglings deal the damage. It should be noted that many players have said that they prefer getting Mutalisks attack, while helps in raiding, sniping stray Hydralisks and dealing with Spore Colonies. I disagree; I believe that carapace is necessary for allowing your army to live long enough to let Zerglings engage the Hydralisks and start dealing damage. (VS ZERG - UPGRADES) It should be mentioned that because damage is counted as either an integer or a half, the numbers won't work out exactly as mentioned above, but it was just to give an example. (VS ZERG - UPGRADES) It is worth mentioning that some players have said that the cost differential between the second carapace and first attack upgrade make it more reasonable to upgrade attack rather than carapace as your second upgrade. While this may be true, if you are playing a game that is going long enough for you to consider a second upgrade, your Mutalisk numbers should be large enough that one less Mutalisk while you research the second carapace upgrade should not matter. If you are trying to punish your opponent while you have a carapace upgrade and he doesn't (much like Protoss does to Zerg while +1 weapons is finished before carapace), do not research a second upgrade. Time your attack to be maximized as soon as the upgrade completes. (VS ZERG - SCOURGE) There is some minor debate about attack-move versus patrol when fighting Scourge. The general consensus is that patrol works better if it is placed properly (close to your Mutalisk group). I personally always use attack-move. I am inexperienced with executing fancy micro against Scourge. There are a few ideas about killing Scourge in this thread (pages 2-4 specifically). You should read the advice offered there and test it on your own. I will mention, again, that if you have the advantage against a Scourge user, things will be much easier if you simply amass Mutalisks before attacking rather than engaging with a low number of Mutalisks. Mutalisk against Scourge micro is among the hardest in Starcraft, and the latency of Battle.net does not make it any easier. (VS TERRAN - UPGRADES) In the unlikely event you are fighting Terran metal, upgrade carapace. (END)************** Further Resources ************* http://sc.gosugamers.net/thread/142563 - GG.net thread about Mutalisks against Scourge using patrol. I will add the Mutalisk micro training maps once I return. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1178 Posts
On September 05 2007 22:40 Chill wrote: Then why not add it? Theoretical the ol is much better, but many players won't be able to keep it fully under control and losing it only once every 4 games or so would be far worse than making 2 extra lings. Hell, losing an ol with the wrong timing could cost you 8 lurkers, or the entire game in other words.This guide is supposed to be practical rather than theoretical. That's why I'm not including things like trapped Zerglings. | ||
[X]Ken~D
377 Posts
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[X]Ken~D
377 Posts
On August 31 2007 04:41 Chill wrote: I didn't include little tricks like this beacuse they're not practical. How about a burrowed zergling? EDIT: kwark beat me to it. | ||
grez[xD]
Trinidad/Tobago1 Post
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Freaky[x]
Canada995 Posts
For those of you wondering how to do the muta vs scourge using patrol, here are some instructions: 1) group mutas with 1 overlord (or larva or ling - who cares) 2) *scourge come*-- Run away mutalisks from scourge 3) use the mutas (grouped with whatever) then click patrol right in front of the mutalisk group OR the leading mutalisk. NOTE: you will see your mutalisks hitting scourge at this point,but you need them to run away to not get killed by the rest of the scourge.So... 4) Click somewhere away from the mutalisk (not in the direction of the scourge) 5) If there are still scourge, go back to 1 and restart. If you are good and fast enough, you can skip steps 4-5 and just use patrol again and kill more scourge. I made this small fpvod on the muta vs scourge map. Download it here. Also, vs terran: When you're trying to kill off 2-3 marines close to you, you should use the hold technique. You send your muta group right click close to the marine group then quickly click hold and run away your mutas. When you have 9-11 mutas, you can usually kill 2 or even 3 marines at the same time, because the damage is spread among the marines. This can be also very useful on maps with a lot of small traveling paths such as peaks where you can hit the marines coming through the small openings in the middle of the map. If you want to pick off scvs or specific marines, you should use the more common approach which is right click the marine or scv. This also applies to the turret. You use the hit-and-run technique to kill the units. Even if you miss the unit, you have time to click back and run away your mutalisks. Don't worry about it. Ah, also, don't waste your mutalisks, the're the most useful scouting units and bring plenty of joy! | ||
ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1178 Posts
The technique was developed wiht bnet in mind and isn't supposed to work over lan/in single player. But it seems you found a way around that problem by patolclicking closer to your mutas. Either way, over lan you can do basicly any technique (patrol,hold, single targeting) and it will still work. That technique is special as it works just as good online. | ||
Freaky[x]
Canada995 Posts
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ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1178 Posts
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MoNKeYSpanKeR
United States2869 Posts
http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=62974 Thread made recently. I susgest adding it into the OP. And the reason that spread mutalisks beat stacked mutalisks in a strait up battle is that if they are spread the muta splash might only buonce to 1 target, but if there stacked it will definitly hit 3 (the maximum) meaning you lose. However stacking, then dancing your mutas and picking focus firing mutas is the benefit of stacking, there is a negative and postiive to both sides. | ||
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