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United States4991 Posts
added screenshots on how to do tank drop added a few reps.
A Quick IntroductionWith the lack of a quality BGH site for BGH players/discussion, I decided to create a central thread for BGH strategy/research discussion. Basically, I intend to keep the original post updated with information + a collection of BGH replays, as BGH replays do not really fit in with the TL replay database.(which, by the way, is great and I highly recommend trying it out!)
In general I've tried to give credit where credit is due. Great credit in general is owed to Gandalf @ TL (X-men-loki in BGH) and Surado- (not on TL) for teaching me a lot about BGH when I was getting started in it
If you want to play BGH, then try marlboro @ USWest or )v( @ USEast.
Guidelines:
- Some people believe BGH is skilless or stupid. If you think so, leave the thread. Don't come here just to post that, unless you enjoy getting banned.
- The BGH community has a lot of drama. Don't try to start flame wars here purely to bitch back and forth about how player X is stupid or newbie.
- If someone does come here and break one of the rules, it's not intended to be a place for you to quote them 50 times saying "Ban?". I'm not going to ban you for doing that, but it doesn't contribute anything except +1 to post count and annoying me.
- General TL commandments apply. Follow them.
Table of Contents
Mining Efficiency (TOC)In BGH, different spots have different mining efficiencies. In addition, depending upon the position of the mineral field relative to the main building, mining speed can vary greatly. Dakota_Fanning undertook a series of 10 hours of tests in order to determine the relative mining speeds of the various positions. Although it may seem insignificant, it can make a big difference, especially early on. Those zealots popping out a few seconds earlier make it much easier to stop a 9 pool from 12 v 11, for example.
+ Show Spoiler [Click to show research] +A higher number means that the mineral field or vespene geyser mines at a quicker rate. (Click for big image) Conclusions- In a long game, all of the positions are roughly equivalent in mining speed, although 1 is the best and 11/7 are the worst.
- Although 7 has the slowest money access, its gas mining is the most efficient with 6 workers.
- 11 has by far the worst gas mining by default, with 60500 compared to the optimal 67000 of 7. At 11, a full 8 workers are a must if using a gas heavy strategy.
- The mineral fields which are visually closest are not always the fastest ones
- Early on, mining from the optimal mineral fields can lead to several seconds earlier for a build order.
Tips & Tricks- For many mineral fields, mining time can be improved (or slowed) by sending workers from different angles.
- On some mineral fields, two workers can mine from the same mineral field without having to redirect to other fields if the second worker is sent to arrive right as the first is leaving with minerals.
- When pulling a worker off to build (early on), try to make sure that the patch which now goes idle is sub-optimal
- When you initially split workers, it may be difficult to send them to the absolute optimal fields depending upon where they are--if you can't, you can redirect them after they return their first trip.
- Advanced trick: you can constantly redirect workers so that the most efficient mineral fields are being used (difficult).
Credit goes to Dakota_Fanning for all research + original text. Optimizing Your Gas Mining (TOC)Gathering gas with the greatest efficiency is super important, especially early game. Later on, it's possible to stick 4 (or even 5 depending upon how terrible the gas is) workers on gas in order to get the most possible gas, but early game being able to gather gas optimally while not giving up that extra worker can make a huge difference. + Show Spoiler [Click to show research] +So first of all, as a general rule up/left geysers are the best geysers to pick early on. See Mining efficiency to see why. However, it's also possible to further improve gas gathering with building placement. I'm afraid I don't have the patience of Dakota_Fanning, so I didn't do 10 hour tests to prove that they are optimal--they just appear to be quicker if you watch the probes for 30 seconds. As a general rule, other buildings of the same size will work. At the 11: At the 12: At the 3: At the 7: Careful! If you place a 3 square width building (like a pool) there, it'll frequently mess up the mining of the top mineral patch.
Recommended (TOC)kOOlam+MournZealot (PP) vs In-flames]Fx[+Defends (PP) X-Men-Help(me!)+X-Men-Lain (PP) vs easternPROTOSS+Mad[WinneR] (PP) 3v3 BGH Pwar (white is kOOlam, I forget akas of others ) Malini(me)+tau(Ganfei) (PZ) v LaLaLand/Ireland (PP) InTheAutumn(Ganfei)+InTheMiddle(me) (TP) v coogi+wujazz (PP) (pretty amazing back and forth game)Miscellaneous (TOC)2pacalypse+kumulativ (PP) vs Ghana+Q(o_x)Q (ZT) [long injured PP v T]Definitions (TOC)Doesn't include trivial things like what M&M is + Show Spoiler [Click to show definitions] +2gg = 2 Gateway Dragoon (see Build Orders) fg = fast goon = 1 Gateway Dragoon (see Build Orders) 7zd = 7 zealots, dragoon = 2 Gateway Dragoon (see Build Orders) 3gz = 3 Gate Zealots (see Build Orders) 9p = 9 Pool (see Build Orders) g = go b = back block <x> = prevent x from leaving his base (and either countering or helping)
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United States4991 Posts
This is a separate post for length reasons. Links to the Table of Contents (TOC) should help you find your way around!
BGH For Beginners (TOC)This is intended as an introduction to BGH gameplay. I address: features of the map, different game modes played, roles, and when to use what build orders. + Show Spoiler [Click to show guide] +(Click for bigger picture) Features of the MapEach main has 2 gases and 15 mineral fields, while each natural expansion has 1 gas and 9 mineral fields. The middle of the map has 2 gases and 12 mineral fields. Each of the four corners has a cliff which is cliffable by Tanks (and potentially but extremely rarely other units). Imbalances of the MapThese are things that are there, and there's not much you can do about them. It's good to be aware of them, so you aren't suddenly surprised by them during play, though. - Every spot can do a ling-proof Terran wallin, but only the 3, 5, 6, and 7 can do it such that the Marine spawns inside the wallin.
- The gases at the 11 are significantly slower than those of the other bases.
- The 3 o'clock's bottom gas and bottom mineral fields can be tanked from the 5 o'clock main.
- Every natural can be tanked from somewhere. The 11+12, 1, and 5 ones can be tanked directly from the opponent's main.
- The corner spots can be cliff tanked, and the 6 and 9 can be tanked such that melee units cannot reach them.
- Some spots can be extremely restricted by enemies (cannons at bottom of 9 natural will fire at units exiting 6+7, tanks from many spots can shoot enemies unhindered)
Imbalances of the RacesWith so many imbalances where people can be tanked, you'd think it's a Terran map, but BGH is actually a Protoss-favoring map. Zerg is weak on BGH due to the limitation of larvae: Zerg can't keep up economically while still having an army; either they are forced to not have an army (in which case the game is lost), or else they don't have much of an economy and lose relevance as the game goes on. Terran has some difficulty on BGH team games due to their early game lack of mobility, and the fact that Marines are less competitive than Zealots or Zerglings until they have more tech. Additionally, Terran have a lot of problem handling good Dragoon → DT tech. In longer games, Terran can be overpoweringly strong due to the narrowness and ability to tank all sorts of areas on BGH. Modes of PlayThe most common mode of play on BGH is 3v3. 2v2 is (unfortunately, in my opinion, as it's a much more skilled game) much less popular. 1v1 BGH is nearly unplayed--a more common 1v1 mode is 6v7 or 11v12, where you are set at one of those positions. 6v7 and 11v12 is usually played with Protoss only, and the rules are no cannons/DTs (the mode is meant to practice Zealot/Dragoon micro/macro). FFA is quite uncommon and silly. Basics of a Team GameGenerally speaking, team games are decided quite quickly. Fast expand strategies, fast upgrades, etc. are all usually quite weak. See the BGH Builds guide for the precise build orders of these builds. There are usually four roles in BGH (note that it's possible for a player to combine these, too; just because a player is teching doesn't mean he won't have any units at all), with a 5th sometimes appearing for Zerg: - Initiative
- Meat Shield
- Ranged Support
- Tech
The initiative player is always going to be the Zerg, if you have one. This player is responsible for keeping the enemies at home while the other players get big and strong, damaging the enemies if possible, and essentially dividing the enemies and providing constant support for allies to make it a 2v1 situation. Generally the initiative player wants his own base to be quite far from the enemies, as he has the advantage of speed, and the closer his base is to them the more likely they can just walk out and either contain him or kill him. The meat shield player is usually going to be the Protoss. This player is going to focus on producing Zealots and taking damage. Zealots are tough, and BGH is narrow enough that they can easily block up enemy forces, such that Zerglings are unable to effectively surround them. The meat shield is responsible for keeping the ranged support alive, ensuring the initiative player does not get overrun by larger forces as the game goes on, and keeping techers alive. The meat shield player is usually quite happy to be near his enemies, especially such that he is closer to them than his allies are, as he needs to block for the allies. The ranged support player is usually a Protoss going Dragoons, or a Terran. This player is typically going to be able to do the most damage, but without a proper meatshield risks getting surrounded and killed by Zerglings or Zealots, or simply overwhelmed by superior numbers. Frequently this player plays a kind of 'carry' role--his allies keep him alive, and he ends up carrying them later on by being stronger than any of the opponents. Frequently this player will end up playing a kind of hybrid role, like a Protoss player going Dragoons can also tech to DT while doing so. Being far from the enemies is a plus for this player, as early on he will have little to no strength. The techer is a player who is voluntarily being weaker than possible at this time, in order to play stronger with high tech units later on. There are typically two kinds of techers: techers where map control is in the hands of his team, and techers where the map control is in the hands of the other team. The former is, of course, much safer, while the latter is only possible by combining it with some level of turtling in certain matchups. Being far from enemies is a plus for this player. The power player is a Zerg player who's focusing on getting Drones, but not on teching or getting units. It's not very common, usually only when you have an ally who's also Zerg. The focus is to get a strong economy and then turn out masses of units at a later time (often Hydralisks/Zerglings). Generally it's going to be used against a Protoss player when you have no other option for a carry style player. It's basically a ranged support player, but it's noted separately because ranged support players are generally going to try to get an army out there as soon as possible to help, whereas the power player wants to wait as long as is feasible in order to get enough Drones. Choosing Your RoleFirst of all, you need to consider what races you and your allies are, and what races you and your enemies are. Zerg is pretty much always going to be the initiative role. Terran is never going to be meat shield or initiative, but rather ranged support, sometimes with tech (especially if there is an enemy Terran). Protoss is the race with the most variance of roles; with a Terran ally, you will be meat shield for sure, whereas with a Zerg ally it depends more upon enemy races (if enemy Zerg/Protoss then you can't tech very quickly, if enemy Zerg/Terran you can do a 2 Gateway Dragoon build, if enemy Zerg/Zerg then you play defensively and get +1 weapons and tech/Zealots while your ally survives). Choosing Your BuildYou usually will want to go 9 Spawning Pool as Zerg--12 Hatch is only viable against a team like Protoss/Protoss. As Terran, you will usually want to go M&M if the enemies are not purely Protosses+Terrans. If there is an enemy Terran, then metal is usually going to be superior, as well. As Protoss, you will only want to 1 Gateway Dragoon (fg) if A) there are no Zergs and B) all enemy Protosses are at least matched initiative-wise (so each enemy Protoss either has a Protoss on your team, or you have roughly 1 Zerg for each 2 enemy Protosses). Additionally, you won't usually go 1 Gateway Dragoon if your ally is Terran, as you should be acting as meat shield. You will only 2 Gateway Dragoon usually if there is an enemy Terran, or you went 2 Gateway before realizing it's ZP vs PP. The other builds are roughly interchangeable depending upon the situation--if you need ranged support but also need lots of Zealots then you can 3 Gateway Dragoon, or else you can stay as meat shield and not switch to Dragoons.
BGH Teamplay (TOC)Teamplay is what determines the winner of most BGH games. Even individually superior players will generally lose to inferior players who understand how to teamplay properly, and that's what this article is going to attempt to address. Note that teamplay on BGH can be quite different from 2v2 low money.
+ Show Spoiler [Click to show guide] +The truth about the East and West servers is that 99.99% of players have little knowledge of CORRECT teamplay strategy. Most of the “good” players think they know, because after all, they’re always winning against mediocre competition. They think they’re the best after beating a bunch of people who are also clueless about teamplay, and therefore never have been challenged to find the faults in their play. It’s only until they face a team employing CORRECT teamplay strategy and get demolished, that they wonder what went wrong and start blaming their partners instead of blaming their own lack of teamplay knowledge. The purpose of this guide is to help improve these 99.99% of players on the East and West servers, because I’m bored of playing noobs. So I write this to share my knowledge. NOTE:Before I begin, I will state that these principles are purely ABSTRACT and deal with STRATEGY, not specific tactics or circumstances, and it doesn’t even necessarily have to be exclusive to Starcraft, it could prove useful in many other games. It assumes all players are of equal playing strength, and that everything is balanced and fair. Principles of TeamplayPrinciple #1: Default Rally Positionsfigure 1.0The diagram above (figure 1.0) depicts where you should ALWAYS set your units to rally by default (particularly if you are Protoss or Zerg). A lot of players simply camp at their base, mass, and then attack. That is incorrect. You should ALWAYS place your units at the safest spot closest to your opponent’s exit point, and that spot is usually somewhere close to the center. By “safe”, I mean the spot where you can retreat if necessary without getting trapped and outnumbered, or without creating openings for units to sneak into your base. The center is generally where most units pass in order to attack, and controlling it halts all attempts for a team to gang up on one of your allies. Furthermore, units in the center have more influence in all directions, giving you more and quicker options on attack and defense. If you cannot occupy the position for whatever reason, the next best thing is to rally to the nearest safe position adjacent to it. The point is, you have to keep an eye on your opponents and make sure your allies don’t get ganged up on, and also make sure they don’t try to cannon or bunker you or your allies in. Should anything happen, your units will be as close as possible to respond, instead of wasting precious time walking out from your base. These are just the general default rally positions, what you should always do is rally to the safest position nearest to your opponents’ exit paths, which is usually around the center. A lot of players might find this difficult to do at first, because they find it hard controlling all the moving units (which is why a lot of players camp at their base, because it’s easier to control). But if you want to play correct, this is what you got to do. It’s a game of “Duck-and-Punch”. When you’re outnumbered you have to retreat instead of fighting, and when the coast is clear you have to go back and control your default position. I suggest watching some replays where players do this, and practice. Principle #2: Measuring Distance and Homebase Advantage:figure 1.1Here’s something most players are oblivious about: homebase advantage. So now you understand the importance of rallying and the center. Now you have to understand when and where to attack now that your units are in place. Above in figure 1.1 is a very basic example of homebase advantage. As you can see there are two divisions, divided by the exact halfway point between the players. If both players were to set their rally to one another, the point at which both their units would meet is the halfway point. The yellow portion is yellow's territory, and the purple is the other player’s. Now that you know, you can take advantage of this knowledge by doing what I’m about to tell you. 1) The further you cross the halfway point, the greater your disadvantage.It is in your best interest that you don’t commit to a battle past your halfway point, and it’s usually a good idea to not even cross it in the first place. If you happen to cross the halfway point and you see that your opponent is coming, you should probably retreat. Since the halfway point is where both your units would meet, it’s obvious now that the further you cross past it, the faster your opponents reinforcements would arrive to the battle, and the longer it would take for your own. It’s basic knowledge that whoever has the most units in the battle is most likely to win the battle. So in other words, the further you go into another player’s homebase territory, the worse your chances of success. 2) If your opponent crosses the halfway point, attack.Now that you know whoever crosses the halfway point is at a disadvantage, you have to take advantage of this fact by attacking whenever they cross it! Your chances of winning the battle are always higher (even if only slightly) due to the fact that your reinforcements arrive quicker than theirs. Even if they retreat when your reinforcements arrive, they will likely take a few extra free hits doing so which is only to your own advantage. 3) If neither player crosses the halfway point, simply wait, or force him to cross.If both players understand the concept of homebase advantage and neither is willing to cross, don’t get anxious and start crossing into their homebase attacking with all you got, as that’s technically a bad move. Your first option is to simply wait and see if he makes a mistake by crossing into your territory. The second option is to force him to cross to give you better chances of winning the battle. There are several ways of doing this: you could threaten to lock him in with cannons (for example: positions 12vs11 or 6v7), start chipping him with Dragoons to force him to retreat or attack, etc. Like I said in the disclaimer, this assumes all things are equal at the given time. 4) The further your opponent is away from his halfway point, the more chances of success you have in ganging up on one of his allies.I guess some people might have been wondering what’s the big deal about going to the halfway point if you don’t plan on crossing it anyway? Like in the previous principle, “Default Rally Positions”, it has all to do with making sure your enemy doesn’t go and gang up on one of your allies. You have to be there to watch him and be ready to intercept or respond to his moves as quickly as possible. So if you have managed to get him to retreat, for example: Dark Templars forced him to retreat or if he’s simply running away or camping for whatever reason, that’s a perfect time to consider running over and helping one of your allies in a battle or ganging up on an enemy's base. This doesn’t always mean you keep going straight into your enemy’s base; remember that your opponent will have homebase advantage and his allies will probably be coming back out. It just means that you try to help your ally win a battle or provide a few extra free hits on them while you have the chance, therefore either ending up with more units on your side or with your opponent’s units more injured, which is a winning advantage in either case. When you see that his ally is coming back out to the halfway point, that’s when you should consider going back to maintain it. How much you can help your allies depends upon how far away from his proper position your opponent is. Depending upon how far it is, you may go all the way with a double attack to an enemy base, or you may merely help your ally temporarily before rushing back to block your opponent. Use your own judgement to see if you should go all the way with an attack or not, based on his distance away from the halfway point. 5) Cross the halfway point to do battle only if you have a clear advantage.Like from the example above, if your opponents have been weakened due to a couple of gang-ups, as a result of being outmicroed, or for whatever other reason, that’s when you can cross the halfway point safely and put pressure on your opponent to weaken him further or eliminate him. This logically means that if you are behind you should almost never even consider crossing the halfway point to attack unless you have a very good reason to do so. But you should still almost always put pressure on the halfway point regardless of whether you are losing or winning. Always keep in mind about staying at the safest point closest to the halfway point though, like in the tip from the principle “Default Rally Positions”. You don’t want to risk getting flanked from behind while you’re busy maintaining the halfway point. Make sure your allies have their enemies covered at all times to determine your safest but still maximally active position. 6) An example: Measure the distance between you and your nearest opponent and determine the halfway point in every game, then maintain it.figure 1.2Many players I see often are too aggressive or too passive, and are pretty confused about where/when to attack or retreat correctly. Very few understand the concept of the halfway point. It’s a combination of keeping your eye on your opponent and also knowing when it’s correct to attack and when it’s correct to avoid conflict. In figure 1.2 I’ve provided an example. Let’s say I’m red and my opponent is yellow. Our allies are battling it out on 6 & 7 positions. I’ve rallied out correctly to make sure yellow doesn’t gang up 2v1 on my ally. Now notice the difference between how far I have to travel to maintain the critical position compared to yellow. This means that if yellow and I were to commit to a battle, he would be more likely to win because his reinforcements would arrive quicker than mine would. Knowing this, what I should do is simply keep the pressure on the critical position, but avoid doing battle. So if he comes at me, I back off, if he goes back the other direction then I immediately go back to the critical position and keep the pressure on him. He can never really gang up on my ally because I could counter him from a close distance or help my ally instantly with no problem. Technically this game is a disadvantage for my team because they are closer together and we are farther apart, but this is in fact is the best play technically. It would only make matters worse if I lost my patience and started to attack yellow. Yellow would most likely win and then continue by ganging up on my ally, and the game would soon be over. The result of this game most of the time would depend on who wins the 6v7 battle. Once again, this example assumes all players of equal strength. Principle #3: The InitiativeThe initiative is basically who’s on the attack and who’s on the defence. It doesn't have to mean the attacks are happening at the moment, it just means who has the better likelihood of attack during that particular time. In general, the team that has the initiative usually has the better percentages of winning every battle. You will have to use your own judgement to determine if you are on the initiative or if you are on the defence. This aspect is most crucial in the early game. To make things easier, give each race the following amount of points for initiative during the early game: Zerg | 3 Points | Protoss | 2 Points | Terran | 1 Point |
So if it’s ZZT versus PPP, that’s 7 points versus 6 points. Team 1 has the slight initiative. If it’s PTZ versus ZZP, that’s 6 points versus 8 points, Team 2 has the initiative, and so on. Now that you know who has the initiative and who’s on the defence, there are a few things to look into: How to play when you have the initiativeHaving the initiative is basically defined as having control over the map due to having a superiority in troops. You’re on the attack. Your objective is to keep up on the attack and do as much damage as possible, that’s pretty obvious. But common mistakes are that when some players are on the attack they start making Drones instead of Zerglings or they start making Forge/Cannons because they are afraid of being countered. This is wrong. What you should be doing instead is focusing all your resources on making units to further the success rate of your attack. Keep sending units immediately as soon as they come out, even setting your rally right into your enemy’s base to make sure everything is coming. It’s only until your opponent either is defeated or has (or will without further significant losses) successfully defended himself that you should consider making Drones, Cannons, etc. If you make Drones or Cannons while you are still attacking and are unsure whether or not your opponent has lost, it would only lower your chances of inflicting damage or eliminating him, not to mention that it would also relinquish your team’s control over the map. You don’t have to worry too much about being countered, since having the initiative usually means your team has better control over the map, and if everyone plays correctly you should be in very little trouble due to this fact. Even if you do die to a counter, the recoil from your team’s attack will still usually do at least as much damage. I’ll explain more on this later on. So basically when you have the initiative, focus everything on your attack to maximize the damage you would do, and minimize the defensive or economic aspects of your game. Only when the attack has slowed do you start playing any differently. How to play when you are on the defensiveRefer back to the principles of “Default Rally Positions” and the “halfway point”. Your aim is to “solidify.” That is the idea you should have in your mind. Keep the pressure on halfway points but avoid commiting to battles. Your goal is not to search for an attack. This means you can’t be too aggressive, but rather you have to play more passively and preserve as many units as you can. Try not to force trading units if at all possible. Preserve as many units as you can. You have to drag the game out to a longer time, where usually you would have the advantage due to having better quality of units/economy resulting from your slower initiative. While you have to always keep an eye out for your opponents, you also have to stay a little further back than usual if you are playing against Zerg. You can’t go too far out with your units because you can easily be trapped, but this doesn’t mean you should be camping at your base either, unless you’re the one most likely to be attacked. If you’re the one being attacked by multiple opponents, send workers (usually only if you are Protoss/Terran) out to control the entry point as soon as you can if possible. To do this, select a bunch of Probes and make them gather from an ally’s mineral patch, this way your Probes will glide very smoothly without stepping on one another. When the Probes reach the entry point, order the Probes to attack along with whatever units you have. This is generally the best defence against multiple attackers because it prevents opponents from entering your base and attacking you from all sorts of places, which is harder to defend than if it were just one spot. If your opponents do enter your base, however, you have to stay close to your Nexus and your Probes. Every time you stretch out, for example to defend a building, you have to immediately go back to the area of your Nexus afterwards, and avoid chasing units too far out (especially against Zerg) from your Nexus because that leaves an opening for a good player to go after your Probes while they're undefended. Keep attacking-going back-attacking-going back and so on until you have weathered the storm, and don’t lunge out with your units away from your base. If your ally is the one being attacked, you have to immediately control your opponent’s exit paths (usually this is the center of the map) and be prepared in case they choose to come back to kill your units instead. You have to lessen the pressure on your ally by blocking their potential reinforcements. You generally keep moving to help your ally in his base, but if it looks like he has it under control you should seek a counter obviously. If you have weathered the storm without taking too much damage, it’s usually to your team’s advantage if your team had a slower initiative to start, due to the better quality units/economy you would usually have. So for example, if you’re Protoss and he’s Zerg, don’t go out attacking right into his initiative, he has the early game advantage and you’ll probably just end up wasting your units against his Zerglings. You should stall the game out to around middle-game time where your economy and unit quality will have given you the advantage, while he was using all his economy on Zerglings trying to push his initiative. This is a point which I've seen ignored by quite good BGH players, too, so don't neglect it! Of course, if he didn’t make Zerglings but instead Drones, he will have forfeited the initiative to you (the Protoss player), which only gives you an advantage for free. For every Cannon/Sunken Colony/Turret you make in your base, it's a minus to your initiative and a minus to your central influence. For every unit you make, it's a plus to your initiative and a plus to your central control. Remember the importance of controlling the center. The more defensive structures you make, the less influence you have on attack and central control. Some players have become accustomed to making a bunch of defensive structures in their base too early in the game because they are used to having unknowledgeable players attacking right into their defenses. The flaw in this play is that good players would simply not attack and take advantage of the map control that has been forfeited over to them. With the control over the map, they have many options to lock players in with cannons, gang up on that player’s allies, expand, or basically do anything they want without worrying about being attacked by the enemy, meanwhile maintaining all the options to create an attack themselves. Make defensive structures only if necessary, and only make as many as you need. Focus your minerals on units. The exception is only if these defensive structures are placed aggressively or are made to lock in an opponent, and not just to defend your own base. So basically, whenever you decide whether or not to attack, ask yourself "Who has the initiative?" It doesn't necessarily mean attacks are already happening to determine initiative, it just means who has the better likelihood of attack. So if you're Terra,n chances are in the early game you DON'T have the initiative, so don't try to bunker rush your Zerg or Protoss opponents, as you'll most likely fail against correct play. Or if your team has simply gone off to a slow start but nothing much is happening in terms of action, don't get anxious and start attacking just because nothing is happening; the team that has the initiative is almost always the team that wins the battle. You should instead just sit back and wait for their initiative to wear off, take advantage of the fact that they're not using their initiative to attack, and use it to your own advantage. What I see very often for example, is that when a Protoss player sees that his opponents who have initiative early game (ZZP for example) aren't attacking (but have units), he loses his patience and tells his team to make an attack, because he's probably thinking "well if you're not attacking then I will!" What you should be doing instead is just wait, and let them make the mistake of wasting their initiative by not attacking you. No matter what phase of the game, always ask yourself "who has the initiative" before deciding whether or not to attack regardless of whether a lot or little is happening at that particular moment. Principle #4 – When to Upgrade; Objectives in “Loud” and “Quiet” GamesA “loud” game is when there is a lot of action going on with many units dying and buildings destroyed at a fast pace. A “quiet” game is when there is little action going on with few units dying and buildings being destroyed, and all happening at a fairly slow pace. “Loud” GameWhen there’s a lot of action going on, the first thing you don’t want to do is start the SLOW upgrades on your Forge or Engineering Bay or start slow “teching”. The upgrades which will quickly bolster your forces, such as Siege Mode, are acceptable. The point is that when there’s a lot of action happening, it’s often hard to determine the outcome of the chaos, so it’s a safer bet to spend your resources on things that can immediately or relatively soon affect the outcome of the battles. Generally speaking, avoid “teching” too much. Do some but leave it to a minimum. Don’t make a bunch of Dropships or trying to upgrade for a Lurker drop. No slow power upgrades on your Forge, or going for a Hive upgrade or expansions, etc. It’s only if you are certain that you have the advantage or at least equality in the battles that you start any of these upgrades or “techs”. Otherwise you risk getting overpowered by your opponent because he chose to spend his money on offense while you chose to spend yours on slow tech. Either you get pummelled or you forfeit control of the map; both are bad. Everything you make in general should have quick influence towards the center, aka units. ”Quiet” GameWhen not much is happening and basically you and your opponents are just sitting around not doing much besides an occasional attempt on an attack here and there. This is the perfect time to expand and make upgrades. Since the game has been going at such a slow pace, you can afford to spend some time and resources on some tech. You should also immediately set your objective to make small drops to harass your opponents' economies. For example, Reaver or High Templar drops on your opponents' minerals. Once you soften up their economies, that’s when you consider making your attack, because you will recover faster than your opponents due to your superior economy. Don't just attack because you are tired of waiting, first soften your opponents up with a few economy blows or pick off a few units here and there when you get opportunities (example: Dragoon micro chipping away at their Zealots). If you just attack (assuming all things equal at that moment) you'll most likely be walking into their homebase territory (remember the homebase advantage) and have worse odds of winning. Pick them apart slowly and when they're softened up, that's when you attack. Principle #5: The Advantage of Space:figure 1.3”Space” in Starcraft is the amount of room and minerals you have access to in comparison to your opponent. Usually the team that controls the center has the spatial advantage because they control the convenient routes that lead the expansions. Thus, the following conclusions: - When you have the spatial advantage, your opponent is therefore in a cramped position; you’re winning because you have more potential room to build and more potential minerals to mine. The game is technically winning for you.
- When you have the spatial advantage, don’t attack and/or trade units if you are in no hurry or danger. Doing so only relieves your opponent’s cramped position. Simply maintain your spatial advantage and keep building all over the map. This will force your opponent out to attack before you end up building the entire map full. The longer your opponent waits in a cramped position, the worse it becomes for them because you have more room to build while they have less. Once you have built up around the map is when you start to consider attacking.
- When you have the spatial advantage, don’t spend your resources on “drops”; remember, you’re in no hurry to attack, they are. Instead spend your resources on trying to lock them in. Your opponent probably has all his units at his base anyways since he has so little space.
- When you are in a cramped position, create counterplay on the sides with drops. This will force your opponent to retreat back to his base to defend your drop, and with this opportunity you can try to break out of the cramped position while the center or choke is temporarily undefended.
In figure 1.3 is a very simple and basic example of spatial advantage, lets assume red and blue are allies vs. yellow and green. Yellow & green have managed to hold onto red & blue’s front of the choke quite early in the game. From this position it is clear that yellow & green have the spatial advantage because they have easy access to the entire map while red & blue have no such advantage. So if I were yellow, I’d refrain from attacking them directly but instead try to further lock them in with cannons on all sides and front. I should be maintaining the spatial advantage and prevent their attempts to break free. I’ll just be maintaining the spatial advantage and building slowing all around the map until I get big enough to have a noticeable and decisive advantage and that’s when I start attacking. So when all things are just about equal except you have the spatial advantage, don't attack if you're in no hurry or danger; the longer you wait, the bigger your advantage. If you attack while you have the spatial advantage, first of all you'll probably be walking right into their homebase territory, and second, it gives them more room to breathe after you've traded off units because you've just given each other more space to move and build. Remember, they HAVE to attack (or else you'll get huge around the map), and you don't. Always keep in mind whether or not you have the spatial advantage before you decide to attack. How I Play A Typical Game:figure 1.4Let me give you an example of how I play a typical game. Referencing the diagram above (figure 1.4), let’s say red & orange are a team. I am purple and my ally is blue. I am Protoss. I make my first Gateway as usual, and now I immediately set the rally point to the spot indicated. I do this for every Gateway I create or already have. All your units coming out of your Gateways should be rallying to that spot and then continue moving to scout your opponent(s) if you haven’t already. When I discover where my nearest opponent is, I re-adjust my rally to the safest spot closest to him. In this case my rally should be just about in front of Orange’s rally location. From there, I use my units to watch my opponents and chip off his units whenever given the opportunity. But most importantly, I’m keeping an eye on my opponent. My ally (blue) should be doing the same thing against red. This way we never have to worry about getting ganged up on. If I see that orange isn’t also rallying to the spot indicated but instead chooses to camp at his base, then now I immediately group up with my ally and gang up on his ally, in this case, I (purple) and blue would probably go attack red. Now because orange was camping at his base, it takes him more time to come out to help his ally or create a counter. The time orange wasted gives me more time to inflict more damage on red or to prepare for his attempt to counter. Had orange rallied out like he was suppose to, our attack would most likely have not been possible because he would have been in a very close distance to help or counter. But lets just assume orange chose to camp at his base and we attacked red. Lets say orange chooses to counter me. I’m obviously anticipating the possibility of a counter so I’m prepared. No, I don’t make forge and cannons (this forfeits map control). The fact that he camped at his base gives me more time before his units arrive, and the fact that the battle will take place in my base gives me homebase advantage. Now you could say that red also has homebase advantage from our attack but the difference is he is attacked before I am countered. Because orange takes a very long time to arrive to either battle scene due to his mistake of camping, the end result would be that red would usually take more damage than I would from orange's counter. Let's give the worst-case scenario where orange manages to defeat me with his counter. It’s likely red would be pretty much done from our 2v1 attack on him, and usually we would have a lot of remaining units after our attack on red on comparison to oranges attack on me. Once again this is because red died faster and therefore probably made less units than me. Now our followthrough from the attack would probably be greater than the continuation of orange's attack, and therefore it becomes a 1v1 game with blue at the heavy advantage, and the game probably ends soon after with our team the victors. But that’s just the worst-case scenario; usually it’s quite simple to survive a counter with proper micro techniques and the end result would be that red would have probably incurred more damage than I would from the counter, which is just an advantage for our team. Now lets say orange played correctly and rallied out towards the center. What now? One thing is for sure is that I will have the homebase advantage should a battle occur at the point of our intersection, because it takes his reinforcements longer to arrive to the scene of battle than it does mine. So with this in mind my goal would be to commit to a battle whenever I can, and his goal would be to just simply keep an eye on me and be ready to respond should I attempt to attack his ally. I will try to force him to do battle with me, and if I manage to gain a small advantage over him I would either try to lock him in with cannons and then proceed to 2v1 on his ally, or I could slowly continue to chip him down further. I’m always wary about crossing the halfway point even if I have an advantage, because my advantage shrinks the closer I get to his base. So I usually opt to just cannon lock my opponent in a location where I’m not so deep within his territory. I play it safe and just 2v1 his ally while he is locked in by a bunch of strong cannons. If red also cannons to defend the 2v1 attack, then we don’t have to attack and just simply retain map control, which is also a big advantage. Either way it’s a lose-lose situation for their team. Usually though this position would depend on who wins the 11 vs. 12 battle, though my team would be a slight favourite due to the fact that we are closer together and they are father apart. Download ReplayThough this might not the most entertaining or action-packed game to watch and is also relatively short, this game depicts the principles in action to its fullest. It was by following the strict principles that ultimately lead to our victory, had we broken any of the rules, the result would have been very different. This game was played from the renowned Asia channel: "Brood War Kor-Asia" (now known as channel: "Asia") I've chosen this replay because I believe it depicts a lot of what I was talking about earlier. For those who are familiar with this channel, you know that these players are super-elite and not comparable to the majority of East, West and Europe players. And that the games are WAY HARDER to actually play than it is to simply watch. If you don't believe me, go try it out for yourself and be amazed how watching can be very easy, but when actually playing it's the most difficult as it could get. I may as well give a recap of the game and explain small details that might not appear to have any important effect or strategy at first, but they do. The game is a P-WAR (Protoss War) and you notice that none of the players scout with a Probe. In P-Wars, it really doesn't matter if you know their positions because it usually doesn't affect or change the way you're going to build anyways. There is pretty much only one standard of build that is correct (watch the replay to get the basic idea of how the build is suppose to be) and coupled with the fact that you already know everyone is Protoss (In P-Wars races are chosen before the game starts) concludes that you would be better off having the Probe mine for minerals instead of wasting it on scouting, it makes a big difference in high-level competitions. Instead, you scout with your Zealots as soon as they come out, that otherwise have nothing better to do than camp around. As you can see each player does in the replay. After you've determined where your opponents are, notice how each player is following the principle "Default Rally Positions". Each player is rallying their units out immediately to the safest spot closest to their foes, which is usually somewhere near the center. You do this because you have to prepare your units in the closest and safest spot possible to respond to your enemies actions quickly, and also to make your attacks come quicker should you chose to do so. If you were to stay at your base your ally could easily get ganged up on and it would take you a long time to help or counter, simply rallying out solves this. Also be aware of the "halfway point" and how all players are very careful about crossing it to do battle. This is why you see the Zealots "dancing around" in the middle. It's not a random act or for show, the players are just keeping the pressure on the halfway points and picking their shots when correct angles or chances are presented. Some people might say "Why not just go attack instead of dancing around?" The basic reason is attacking usually means the battle would take place past your halfway point, which is a disadvantage as I've discussed earlier in the Guide. Notice how every time a player crosses their halfway point; his opponent immediately tries to attack. And then of course, he retreats correctly so. The reason he crossed the halfway point was probably to see how many units you have to determine if you have made a Cybernetics Core or gone for straight Zealots. Watch the replay and pay close attention to the players and how they are always careful about crossing the halfway points and how they always retreat soon after if they do cross it. Now notice after the early struggle my team (brown + white) have managed to secure the center. Notice how we simply wait instead of attacking for quite some time. There are a few reasons for this. First of all both sides have just about an equal amount of units, so if we were to attack at this point the battle would take place closer to their homebase advantage, and since his ally has rallied out correctly to be ready to respond, it's therefore more likely that we would lose rather than win the battle most of the time. Secondly, remember "The Advantage of Space", we control the center and everything else at this point is just about equal. So we have the winning advantage because we have more room to build and more potential minerals to mine. So if you would imagine we would have kept waiting on forever, eventually my team would theoretically most likely win because we have more room to build and more potential minerals to mine. On the flip side, they're the ones who want to attack to relieve their cramped position, since we know that the longer they wait, the worse it becomes for them. So knowing this, we simply wait and make them attack us instead in a spot that's not so close to their homebase advantage. All this is assuming of course that they are maintaining the balance by creating units, if they slowed down on unit production then of course we would have simply attacked and won the game. They attack us as we've expected, and the unit exchanges are quite even because the battle took place just about at the halfway point location. At the end of the exchanges we come out a little bit ahead because our units were better coordinated than theirs at the time of attack. Notice how all players only cross the halfway point to attack when it appears that they have the advantage, and when they don't they retreat the moment their opponent is coming. Also notice how every time one of our enemies is a bit far from his halfway point, we immediately gang up on his ally temporarily to gain some advantage. We take advantage of every small opportunity they give us and that's how you eventually win against equal strength competition. Of course, if they were BOTH far from their halfway points, we would attack right into either one's base and they would probably lose right then and there. Next you see that Brown has obtained a sizable advantage over Purple (11 spot) after being chipped down slowly, and crosses the halfway point to attack him correctly so. White (3 spot) and Orange (9 spot) are just about even, so the best thing usually for White to do is simply hold in Orange while his ally is dying. But the way we played it is also acceptable. Since Orange's ally is so far away from the halfway point due to being attacked and being forced defending in his base, and White is just about even with Orange, White coupled with Browns (7 spot) coming reinforcements take this opportunity to attack Orange with this outnumbering advantage. As you can see in the replay, Orange survives our other attack and we trade units just about equally. Notice how at one point we had 4 Dragoons in Orange’s base while he had nothing, but we still retreated! We figured that Purple was soon about to get defeated, and that our attack on Orange did it's job but he was still alive, and he probably was going to have a bunch of units coming out of his Gateways anyway. So we played it safe and retreated from his homebase advantage, why take a risk on a won game? We simply finished his ally and while locking him from a spot not so close to his homebase advantage. If we had stayed at his base with the 4 Dragoons, although we would have probably won either way, it would give him slightly better percentages of making a comeback due to being so close to his homebase advantage, so that's why we retreated the 4 Dragoons to take as little risk as possible. No need to take risks on a surely won game. And finally, Purple dies and the rest is pretty easy 2v1. Notice how Brown immediately retreats from Purple's base after he has been disabled offensively. No need to stick around, it's better to immediately control the halfway point of your other enemy instead of blowing up a bunch of useless buildings that are no threat to you. But a small detail I'll add which doesn't really matter at this point because the game is probably won either way: Notice at the end we attack Orange 2v1 but then retreat for some apparently odd reason. This can be explained by several things, firstly we know that we are winning because the game is 2v1, and he had a fair amount of units at the time so we decided to take as little risk as possible. Had we attacked, though we probably would have won, it would give him much better percentages of winning since the battle would give him homebase advantage. So instead we retreated and maintained "The Advantage of Space". It's winning by default, and the only chance he has is to come out and attack us on a place not so close to his homebase advantage, which he was forced to do eventually. Of course he then failed on his attack and only then did we attack his base because the difference ratio between our units was much higher this time. And there you have it, I hope this brings the principles closer to perspective. The game played was MUCH MUCH harder than it looks. Though it might not the most entertaining game to watch and also relatively short, this game depicts the principles in action to its fullest. It was by following these strict principles that ultimately lead to our victory, had we broken any of the rules, the result would have been very different. Well, enjoy Credit goes to easternPROTOSS for the original guide.
Tank Drops (TOC)From a personal standpoint, I'm not a big fan of Tank cliffing on BGH. I think it's a bit unfair that a spot like the 7 is so ridiculously vulnerable to it, while a spot like 12 is completely immune to it. Nonetheless, it's a part of the game, so here's a guide about it.
+ Show Spoiler [Click to show guide] +The 11, 1, 5, 6, 7, and 9 mains can all have Siege Tanks dropped behind them in such a way that they are unreachable by melee units, while the 11, 1, 5, and 7 mains can be done such that the Tanks are on high ground. Here are some screenshots, taken by me. The source of these screenshots is a replay from Yao_Ming. I recommend practicing these before trying them in an actual game, as they require more precision than the common 5 spot. 1: 5: 6: 7: 9: 11: There is a trick which lets you do the cliffing ones easier (although the 7 cliff is easy enough that you should not need it there). Load up an SCV first and then just one Tank (because a Dropship can't carry two Tanks with an SCV ). You then unload the SCV on the cliff, and move it to the very edge of the cliff, as far as it can go to the side. After that, tell the Dropship to unload directly on the SCV and the Tank will get out on the cliff. Ted has contributed some screenshots explaining in detail how to do certain tricky spots. For each of these methods, you should be spam clicking on the tank in the dropship as you do it! Credit goes to War_Vampire for the SCV idea. Credit goes to Yao_Ming for the replay source of the screenshots. Credit goes to ted for helpful screenshots on how to drop on specific spots.
Terran Wallins (TOC)Walling in on BGH is super important for Terrans who are going tech (and it can make it a bit safer to MM, too). All of these walls should stop Zerglings. + Show Spoiler [Click for the guide] +There is a trick at the 6 main which means it does not stop Zerglings. If a Protoss builds an Assimilator on the gas of the natural, then Zerglings can run above the Depot but below the Assimilator. Most of these wallins can be done with Protoss too, except for them the Forge should be below the Gateway, the opposite of how Terran has it. Protoss wallins are pretty rare, so I'm not going to post a guide for that too. The 3, 5, 6, and 7 wallins spawn Marines inside the wall. The other wallins do not.
BGH Build Orders (TOC)Build orders without explanation about when you should use them. You should always be willing to adapt depending upon what you see your opponents doing, of course! + Show Spoiler [Click to show guide] +Protoss2 Gateway Dragoon- 8 Pylon
- 10 Gateway
- 12 Gateway
- 13 Zealot
- 15 Pylon
- 17 Zealot/Zealot
- 21 Pylon
- 22 Assimilator
- 23 Zealot/Zealot
- 28 Pylon
- 28 Cybernetics Core
- 29 Zealot/Zealot
- 35 Gateway
- 36 Goon/Goon
- 40 Pylon
3 Gateway Zealot- 8 Pylon
- 10 Gateway
- 12 Gateway
- 13 Zealot
- 15 Pylon
- 17 Zealot/Zealot
- 21 Pylon
- 22 Gateway
- 23 Zealot/Zealot
- 27 Pylon
1 Gateway Dragoon- 8 Pylon
- 10 Gateway
- 11 Assimilator
- 14 Cybernetics Core
- 15 Pylon
- 16 Gateway
- 17 Dragoon
- 20 Singularity Charge
- 21 Goon/Goon
- 25 Pylon
- 25 Gateway
3 Gateway Dragoon- 8 Pylon
- 10 Gateway
- 12 Gateway
- 13 Zealot
- 15 Pylon
- 17 Zealot/Zealot
- 21 Pylon
- 22 Gateway
- 23 Zealot/Zealot
- 27 Pylon
- 28 Assimilator
- 29 Zealot/Zealot/Zealot
- 37 Pylon
- 38 Cybernetics Core
TerranMarines and Medics- 9 Supply Depot
- 11 Barracks
- 13 Barracks
- 14 Supply Depot
- 15 Marine
- 17 Refinery
- 18 Marine
- 19 Marine
- 20 Marine
- 22 Academy
- 23 Supply Depot
- 26 Barracks
Vultures- 9 Supply Depot
- 11 Barracks
- 11 Refinery
- 14 Marine (Optional--only if needed)
- Factory
- Factory if no Marine, else Supply Depot
- Supply Depot if you just made Factory, else Factory
Tank DropSame as Vultures, except get one Vulture before Machine Shop if necessary and don't get the second Factory. Pretty obvious how to do this, really. Zerg9 Pool- 9 Pool
- 9 Extractor
- 8 Overlord
- [drone]
- 9 LingsX3
- Speed
Pull Drones off such that you end with exactly 104 gas. Make Hatchery when you have 300, unless you need a Sunken to survive, in which case you make that. 12 Hatchery- 9 Overlord
- 12 Hatchery
- 11 Spawning Pool
- 13 Hatchery
And then judge it from there according to what you need.
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this is really good
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Great thanks. A lot of this stuff can also be applied to regular hunters, correct?
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We had some good games, off the top of my head that big TP vs PP vs coogi and wujazz and that long PZ vs PP jared + haste
Also wanted to point out that as for ling proof wallins it's often worth it to simply do a 2 depot block and use 1 scv, 2 if you want to repair the 1st scv, to block the ling gap at positions like 1, 9, 11
Here's the pz vs pp if you want it
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=10723
and here's the TP vs PP i'm gonna go check it now to see it it works since it's from 1.15
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=10724
yep it works, it's really a pretty good replay actually
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Very nice post i'm very impressed on how well thougth out this is
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CA10824 Posts
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wujazz hasnt been on east for a while just f removed him lol =-=
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Extremely in depth, thanks.
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This is very nice, thanks! I like playing BGH from time to time so I might be here once in a while. About the replay addition, what exactly are you looking for? Just entertaining games? Combination builds that work well together in teams? Micro intensive? Crazy allin tactics?
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Oh man this is pretty cool. I wanna play BGH with TL people sometime. -_-
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On April 15 2009 15:48 Fontong wrote: Oh man this is pretty cool. I wanna play BGH with TL people sometime. -_- Yeah same. I suggest we have a TL BGH tourny
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omg did you write this yourself? This is amazing! (Makes me want to go play some BGH)
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On April 15 2009 16:08 ghermination wrote: omg did you write this yourself? This is amazing! (Makes me want to go play some BGH)
No...it says very clearly who wrote what, most of it is written by others from the bghers.com website
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excellent thread. @grobyc: the replays are not just micro intensive, they are also strategy intensive and use advanced teamplay tactics. and most skilled bghers do not make all-in attacks, 5 pool is about the only build that you will see, and its very uncommon @ high level play.
if this sparks anyones interest to play bgh the channels are: west: marlboro (i think its mostly pub stompers idk of any inners) east: )v( (this channel features many pub stompers (mostly noobies) but also there are a fair bit of inners played as well) edit: i just thought of a highly common cheese build is 1 hatch lurker. usually in 2v2 ZZ team will double 9 pool and 1 of them stays on lings, the other goes 1 hatch lurker. this is fairly common play. if the other team just turtles with cannons/bunkers and walls, with fast detection its pretty much always gg for the ZZ team. its really the only build that ZZ can do that has any hope of winning, 12 hatch//9 pool is fairly weak. ZZ can very easily get 1v2'd with T or P.
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Braavos36362 Posts
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LOL is that quote real hotbid? i remember fayth vs bghers.
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thanks good read. FFA isnt uncommon on this map imo, at least not on east. you should provide/say that bgh is used a lot for RW too(besides hunters).
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
Wow, what an epic guide. Massive props.
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United States7166 Posts
bow down before the god of BGH
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Wow this is great! good job !
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United States4991 Posts
If people do want to play, my name is HelpImDying on both west/east (er, not that I'm online at the immediate second)
On April 15 2009 16:08 ghermination wrote: omg did you write this yourself? This is amazing! (Makes me want to go play some BGH) Some sections were entirely by me, other sections were not. All sections were edited to varying degrees by me. Sections which do not have specific credit for others were entirely by me. Protoss build orders I wrote with some cooperation with 2pacalypse-.
On April 15 2009 15:47 Grobyc wrote: This is very nice, thanks! I like playing BGH from time to time so I might be here once in a while. About the replay addition, what exactly are you looking for? Just entertaining games? Combination builds that work well together in teams? Micro intensive? Crazy allin tactics? All of the above I guess. Any replay you think might be interesting to others to see, basically. If you have a question about BGH, as well, then you can post it here (including replay) so people can help you out with it. It's essentially supposed to be any BGH related discussion. Several people in the past have asked me/other admins about the possibility of a BGH related forum here. We don't believe there is sufficient demand/need for it, but a dedicated thread in the strategy forum is fine.
On April 15 2009 17:09 Raithed wrote: thanks good read. FFA isnt uncommon on this map imo, at least not on east. you should provide/say that bgh is used a lot for RW too(besides hunters). True. RW strategy = stay out of the way and get your opponents to kill each other while you get big (generally). FFA is similar. I don't really want to write about either
On April 15 2009 17:03 Cyrox wrote: It's like dota then ? Don't really see what you're talking about. I guess it's similar in the sense that it's a non-originally-intended way of playing the game which is relatively popular.
On April 15 2009 15:48 Fontong wrote: Oh man this is pretty cool. I wanna play BGH with TL people sometime. -_- Some of us do play together sometimes.
On April 15 2009 16:00 Grobyc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2009 15:48 Fontong wrote: Oh man this is pretty cool. I wanna play BGH with TL people sometime. -_- Yeah same. I suggest we have a TL BGH tourny I'll consider it.
On April 15 2009 15:03 NoobsOfWrath wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Longish quote] +We had some good games, off the top of my head that big TP vs PP vs coogi and wujazz and that long PZ vs PP jared + haste Also wanted to point out that as for ling proof wallins it's often worth it to simply do a 2 depot block and use 1 scv, 2 if you want to repair the 1st scv, to block the ling gap at positions like 1, 9, 11 Here's the pz vs pp if you want it http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=10723and here's the TP vs PP i'm gonna go check it now to see it it works since it's from 1.15 http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=10724yep it works, it's really a pretty good replay actually OK, I'll watch them and then edit them into OP.
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United States4991 Posts
Added reps, the PT v PP especially is quite crazy :O
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That is really great,thanks a lot
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could you add in which channel bgh game ppl idle in west or east
ty
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United States4991 Posts
On April 15 2009 18:56 FaCE_1 wrote: could you add in which channel bgh game ppl idle in west or east
ty marlboro - west )v( - east
I'll add it in I guess.
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ah I think I've seen the "HelpImDying" name on West in pubs before. This guide said a lot about the things that get me pissed when playing pubs, especially the spacing and rallying portions.
There are other things that probably should be added later (more so for regular Hunters though) like:
+ Show Spoiler + 1.) If you are a Terran going MM for the love of god get FIREBATS. Pure MM has no chance for Zealots and lings even in tight spots early game and the worst Zeal micro. None. In the open it's just over. Late game you can get by without bats as upgraded marines in large numbers going to destroy lings, and vs Zeals you'll probably have tank support.
2.) If you are Terran going MM and know an enemy Terran is going Vultures - don't panic. The reason MM sucks vs Mech is the fact that ramps will kill you, and mines will make you stay home. BGH has no ramps so that's problem 1 out the way. So that leaves mine contains and the eventual tanks. However, you'll have stim+scan and possibly range before he has mines AND speed which he needs to be effective vs MM. Obviously once he gets tanks its over, but don't be scared to pressure his wall. Once he loses the depot its over if your allies are doing their jobs. If you don't think you can take his wall, you can sit on his choke if you're allies are covering everyone else. Vults can't blast through MM in a tight space unless there are a lot of them.
3.) As Zerg, if you open 9 pool speed don't be afraid to retreat your lings and attack a few seconds later with reinforcements. Rallying lings in 2 by 2 is bad because they die so fast.
4.) As Zerg, lurkers are brutal. While mutas are popular, lurkers are just as bad because even with detection when they have lots of support they will help control the middle easily. Tanks/hydra/lurk/marines are very hard to break out of without storm. Knowing this don't recklessly send all your units to break contains without the right support.
5.) Some principles and the same common sense applies from regular games. If a Protoss enemy starts pumping corsairs to harass your Zerg allies, usually he has only zealots/cannons and very few gas units. If you triple team one of his allies, the amount of help he can offer isn't going to be that much as he has used a lot of time and resources on pumping corsairs. He might not even have legs for his Zeals.
6.)If you are scared of getting dropped on in your main, but you need your army to cover another player's army just make 1 or 2 static D structures. Unless you scout an epic drop of massive proportions coming, that'll be enough to buy time for your main army to arrive back at base. Thats exactly why you build those structures. 10 cannons isn't going to stop a mech drop, and neither will 10 sunkens. 2 will do fine so all your drones won't get massacred instantly as they'll have to kill sunks for vultures to run around.
and I'm far from an expert, but in most games I generally understand why I win or lose when playing Hunters and BGH.
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United States4991 Posts
On April 15 2009 19:02 Ace wrote:ah I think I've seen the "HelpImDying" name on West in pubs before. This guide said a lot about the things that get me pissed when playing pubs, especially the spacing and rallying portions. There are other things that probably should be added later (more so for regular Hunters though) like: + Show Spoiler + 1.) If you are a Terran going MM for the love of god get FIREBATS. Pure MM has no chance for Zealots and lings even in tight spots early game and the worst Zeal micro. None. In the open it's just over. Late game you can get by without bats as upgraded marines in large numbers going to destroy lings, and vs Zeals you'll probably have tank support.
2.) If you are Terran going MM and know an enemy Terran is going Vultures - don't panic. The reason MM sucks vs Mech is the fact that ramps will kill you, and mines will make you stay home. BGH has no ramps so that's problem 1 out the way. So that leaves mine contains and the eventual tanks. However, you'll have stim+scan and possibly range before he has mines AND speed which he needs to be effective vs MM. Obviously once he gets tanks its over, but don't be scared to pressure his wall. Once he loses the depot its over if your allies are doing their jobs. If you don't think you can take his wall, you can sit on his choke if you're allies are covering everyone else. Vults can't blast through MM in a tight space unless there are a lot of them.
3.) As Zerg, if you open 9 pool speed don't be afraid to retreat your lings and attack a few seconds later with reinforcements. Rallying lings in 2 by 2 is bad because they die so fast.
4.) As Zerg, lurkers are brutal. While mutas are popular, lurkers are just as bad because even with detection when they have lots of support they will help control the middle easily. Tanks/hydra/lurk/marines are very hard to break out of without storm. Knowing this don't recklessly send all your units to break contains without the right support.
5.) Some principles and the same common sense applies from regular games. If a Protoss enemy starts pumping corsairs to harass your Zerg allies, usually he has only zealots/cannons and very few gas units. If you triple team one of his allies, the amount of help he can offer isn't going to be that much as he has used a lot of time and resources on pumping corsairs. He might not even have legs for his Zeals.
6.)If you are scared of getting dropped on in your main, but you need your army to cover another player's army just make 1 or 2 static D structures. Unless you scout an epic drop of massive proportions coming, that'll be enough to buy time for your main army to arrive back at base. Thats exactly why you build those structures. 10 cannons isn't going to stop a mech drop, and neither will 10 sunkens. 2 will do fine so all your drones won't get massacred instantly as they'll have to kill sunks for vultures to run around.
and I'm far from an expert, but in most games I generally understand why I win or lose when playing Hunters and BGH.
2Pac and I are working on a tips and tricks section.
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United States4991 Posts
Ted from BGHers has contributed some great <a href='http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=91389#guide2'>screenshots</a> on how to do tank drops of specific spots!
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konadora
Singapore66060 Posts
Amazing... even BGH can be so in-depth! Great guide, will try those tank drops >=D *goes to play some BGH*
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one thing about tank drops on Hunters though, if it fails it's almost game over.
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lots of hunters maps you can't tank drop on. And if you mean BGH, if you fail a tank drop it's not TOO big of a deal, if you just start mass meching and turtling for a bit and your allies do the same and wait until you have a decent sized army before you move out, you wont be too far behind. Especially because if you get mech off on bgh, like and get your hardcore macro on, it OWNS soooooo hard, that it will easily make up for a failed tank drop.
The main problem is surviving, and making sure your allies survive. Your allies should be aware you are going tank drop and should play accordingly, depending on map control, they most likely need to also D up until you are ready to come out.
Another side note is cannon/tanks in middle absolutely OWNS on bgh.
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Yea I'm talking normal Hunters. If you tank drop you pretty much cede map control to the other team unless your allies are really good at pressuring the other team (like double 9 pool speed) and crippling one of them severely.
I just lost a 3v3 a few minutes ago as PZZ vs TPZ because my zerg allies both stopped pumping lings after we crippled but couldn't finish off the Zerg due to Protoss saving him.
What happens?
Terran breaks out with 3rax MM and just rolls over one of the Zerg. I can't save him alone because the other Zerg went 1 hatch mutas.
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Holy sweet Jesus this is in-depth. I FUCKING LOVE IT.
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Wow, this is really well written. Easy to understand and is backed up with plenty of screenshots for reference. There's lots of good info in here too...thanks for this.
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Yea if your playing a hunters map where you actually can tank drop (most commonly played hunters maps now you can't) and you fail it then you are DEFINITELY screwed. Hunters is more micro oriented while bgh is more macro oriented (obviously). So basically all your early units in hunters are much more important, its much easier to rebuild a big army in bgh or recover when you are behind because you can turtle and catch up etc. In hunters every time you win a battle you definitely gain a bigger advantage than you do in bgh.
Also I am sure a lot of you guys know this but if you want to start getting into team games on BGH I reccomend you go to Asia server and go to channel Brood War Ladder. Its full of gosu koreans who really know how to properly play team games and they constantly host hunters inners. Or if you are with friends one of you guys can host a game, and one spams the game name in the channel. Your games fill up within seconds. Everyone in the chan is gosu, avg 200-400 apm. It really teaches you how to properly team play and develops your hunters mechanics. Playing lots of these is definitely a good way to master team play on hunters/bgh, since the fundamentals of hunters teamplay and bgh teamplay are the same, bgh is just more macro basically.
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lololol Insane I think I have seen you on that b.net name before xD I think you were on my team once.
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i used to play bgh all the time, but after getting triple teamed constantly by noobs while attempting a strategy that doesn't involve spamming zealots (and being called a noob BY the noobs), i quit it lol
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Yea BGH is infinitely more fun if you are playing with players who know how to play as a team, vs players who know how to play as a team. When you got 6 good team players this map is seriously a BLAST.
Bghers.com is undergoing some changes but pretty soon we are going to be hosting regular tournaments, and then hosting a bgh league. So all of you TLer's better get your friends and start practicing 2v2 and 3v3 BGH, cause shit is about to get real!
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Thanks for posting this! Lately (yeh I know I must be a horrible person) the only time I play SC online is to play 3v3 BGH pubbies for fun. I tried Zerg for a while, but they are so reliant on your teammates knowing what they're doing. I constantly read that Zerg pretty much is there for support, not to actually do much damage or absorb damage. Problem is when my teammates do retarded stuff like build 4 sunkens and 2 lings early on.
How about tips for pubby play? To compensate for the wild mix of skill you'll see there, what would you recommend? I have the best success sticking with Protoss and hopefully having one Protoss ally. I just mass zeals early and try to essentially take out the opponents that prevent us from safely taking the middle. For instance, if you get lucky enough to have all your team-mates on top or bottom, proxy gates/cannons in the middle is devastating. It slows down or shuts down reinforcements and you have a quick rally point to everyone's base. That's the ideal situation I try to get into in every 3v3 BGH game.
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Personally I think if your playing with pubs vs some pubstompers or just any pubs I guess, and you think your allies are going to be kinda noob and won't help you much I go terran. I always just wall in, get a bunker, and go tank drop. Then either I will 1) Just switch to mass mech and take ur 2nd gas right after you get your dropship and tanks headed out. Put down more factories as you get money, and put down double armory start upgrades (and if your vs zerg you will want your armoriers earlier and to make some gols) but if its all tosses ill just rip factories with all tanks and vultures, and just really get gols later for arbs or cars. Tank drop is key though if you plan on winning a game where you start with the huge disadvantage of scrub ass allies.
OR (this my personal fav in pubs) 2) I do a Tank Drop/FE build that gives you a HUGE economy much earlier, allowing you to support tons and tons of factories much earlier than normal. Basically I take my first gas around 12 ish, ane make a couple marines from your rax just 2 for now is probably fine. I start my factory and get a bunker especially if im vs a t whose going mm or a fger, then once I get 400 I expo (if possible) asap (works best with bases like 9/7 where u can still wall your nat, or 11 12 when no one is next to you and you can put a rax at choke). If its impossible to take an expo, I will just double CC my main to rip scvs, and once you can secure an expo later, just lift the second CC. Right after factory down put down starport and still go for tank drop. You definitely have to have a bunker with a few marines in it and be ready for repair, because you absolutely HAVE to hold an attack on you. It's often good to have an scv or a team mates lord, like what insane said, 1.5 screens away so you know when they are coming and can send scvs. I normally hotkey 6 scvs to 2 and 3 early on and if i see something i just send em over asap.
So your tank drop is about 20 seconds later, and you got an expo up and ur wall, keep macroing tanks off that factory for defense, and once you can support it start slapping down mass factories, with your 2nd CC pumping scvs you should have a huge economy and lots of resources relatively soon so you can support hella hella factories, and will start to outmass most players.
This build is very risky because you are very vulnerable for a short period of time, But if you plan on owning a bunch of pubbies and don't expect much help from your team this build definitely can RAPE. I have owned so many random pubs 1v3 with this, by getting 1 or 2 with tank drops and then just having MASS mech pretty early to steamroll the other 1 or 2. Just don't do it in a serious game your allies will probably be pissed. NEVER STOP MAKING SCVS!
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United States37500 Posts
lol, just watched that kOOlam 2v2 rep. The guy is a fucking monster, ffs.
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Bonus thing with tankdrop with not so good allys is that you can drop some tanks in their mains so they get some bonus defence if they are in a vulnerable position.
Also awesome guide even if I have already read most parts of it. I play alot of hunters and some of it works there too and it is always good to remind yourself of some stuff and add other. Big thumbs up.
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Braavos36362 Posts
Hunters, imo, is much more fun and balanced, but BGH has far more users because of its mass appeal, so you sort of just live with the blemishes in its terrain and strategy.
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Ted: Thanks for the thorough response. When you do a tank drop, about how many tanks do you usually drop? I've been in some games where I got owned by like 8 dropships full of tanks/gols. What do you think is the right amount for that first drop?
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I love BGH
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On April 16 2009 03:50 EscPlan9 wrote: Ted: Thanks for the thorough response. When you do a tank drop, about how many tanks do you usually drop? I've been in some games where I got owned by like 8 dropships full of tanks/gols. What do you think is the right amount for that first drop? On the first drop you just drop one or two on cliff or behind minerals.
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BGh is the only fastest map ill ever play on. gl with guide (btw it looks very VERY detailed already)
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Do you guys think any pro gamer is able to win 1v3 C- level players on bgh with 5 mins no rush?
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Braavos36362 Posts
On April 16 2009 06:19 Person514cs wrote: Do you guys think any pro gamer is able to win 1v3 C- level players on bgh with 5 mins no rush? Absolutely not.
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Dude, this guide is seriously awesome. Thanks so much for writing it. You've really persuaded me to start playing some more BGH. I was in the same boat as the dude a few posts before me where I was only able to play games where I would get stomped and get really frustrated.
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Also another thing I wanted to point out if playing BGH:
If you're going to tech, you DO NOT need to take your second gas the same time as the first - it's pointless.
You'll need 6 workers in most cases to do that, and whatever tech you want will be delayed because you won't have the minerals and unit count to defend yourself early on. This is even true for Terrans - try going for a fast factory build off of a quick 2 gas and watch your tank count get destroyed. If you want 2gas, at least wait till you have enough workers on minerals where it won't seriously fuck your eco. In fact there probably aren't many reasons to ever take your second gas uber fast unless you are entirely sure no one is going to be attacking you any minute soon, or you're Zerg going for 3 hatch mutas in which case you probably want more minerals early on anyway.
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Man those replays are boring to watch after like 5 mins into them. I'm sure they're much more fun to play at least! Otherwise you're just watching low tech unit micro battles for 10 minutes, then eventually someone techs and it's back to the constant battles over and over again. About 30 minutes of "clank clank, pow pow, ahh!!"
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United States4991 Posts
On April 16 2009 07:57 EscPlan9 wrote: Man those replays are boring to watch after like 5 mins into them. I'm sure they're much more fun to play at least! Otherwise you're just watching low tech unit micro battles for 10 minutes, then eventually someone techs and it's back to the constant battles over and over again. About 30 minutes of "clank clank, pow pow, ahh!!" Yeah the PZ vs PP was really boring because they just turtled Others mostly have more action throughout game.
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On April 16 2009 07:57 EscPlan9 wrote: Man those replays are boring to watch after like 5 mins into them. I'm sure they're much more fun to play at least! Otherwise you're just watching low tech unit micro battles for 10 minutes, then eventually someone techs and it's back to the constant battles over and over again. About 30 minutes of "clank clank, pow pow, ahh!!"
Well this kind of reminds me of people who complain about macro 1v1 games. I really fail to see how the TP vs PP game was "boring," but to each their own. I'm only care cause I'm in it, probably.
I mean, I guess for you Hunter replays are boring too or do you like that kind of micro (I'm talking about like CKBTV).
Also, I do agree the PZ vs PP is boring but Z is so terrible on the map I liked the game just cause we managed to come back from a disadvantageous position.
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I didn't even see that one... I was specifically referring to the ones that were constant action. I found that to be the downfall because of how repetitive it was. I much prefer the non-bgh/hunters games where there will always be times when both are macroing, teching, expanding, trying to secure expos and all that. Not to mention that in the non-money games, even a minor harassment such as a vulture raid that takes out 3-4 drones can have a significant impact on the outcome of the game. That obviously isn't the case with BGH, so I guess I shouldn't expect anything like it.
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Watching low tech micro battles rarely amazes me or excites me. Playing in them, obviously, would be a lot more fun though. That's mostly what I'm saying. No need to take it personally.
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nvm I don't really feel like a bunch of people telling me to calm down when I'm not mad and not take it personally when I'm already not taking it personally, then have to keep saying I'm not mad and not taking it personally over and over
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On April 16 2009 05:33 Sonu wrote: BGh is the only fastest map ill ever play on. gl with guide (btw it looks very VERY detailed already)
BGH is a money map. Fastest maps have stacked minerals.
Is there a channel for BGH or hunters in abyss.
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lol this should increase the power of the pub xD
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can somebody explain
Zerg is weak on BGH due to the limitation of larvae: Zerg can't keep up economically while still having an army; either they are forced to not have an army (in which case the game is lost), or else they don't have much of an economy and lose relevance as the game goes on.
-limitation of larvae.. meaning zerg cant produce fast enough?(cant this be fix by more hatchery?) -cant keep up economy ???
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On April 16 2009 13:35 artofmagic wrote:can somebody explain Show nested quote +Zerg is weak on BGH due to the limitation of larvae: Zerg can't keep up economically while still having an army; either they are forced to not have an army (in which case the game is lost), or else they don't have much of an economy and lose relevance as the game goes on. -limitation of larvae.. meaning zerg cant produce fast enough?(cant this be fix by more hatchery?) -cant keep up economy ??? Zerg could either make drones or make zerglings. Protoss and Terran can do both at the same time. Zerg could make additional hatcheries, but 300 minerals costs a lot for a unit production building.
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On April 16 2009 13:35 artofmagic wrote:can somebody explain Show nested quote +Zerg is weak on BGH due to the limitation of larvae: Zerg can't keep up economically while still having an army; either they are forced to not have an army (in which case the game is lost), or else they don't have much of an economy and lose relevance as the game goes on. -limitation of larvae.. meaning zerg cant produce fast enough?(cant this be fix by more hatchery?) -cant keep up economy ???
No. It's because of the number of minerals. Terran and protoss can continue making workers and receive a LOT more money and saturation than they would on a low money map or hunters. 15 mineral patches = a ton of money for toss and terran. Normally, say, you have 9 drones on low money, that's 1 drone on each patch. On BGH, it's 9/15. On BGH, once T or P has more than 8 miners, they're already getting more money than comparative time on low money. Zerg isn't, if they 9 pooled. The economic imbalance builds up enormously over time. You might ask if it's possible to just 12h and make pure drones and keep up that way. Yes, it is possible to keep up in workers, but then your tech and units will be wayyy behind and you will have no defense either. The economy problem is insurmountable. Zerg is only strong early game with good 9p micro and late game when they have enough drones to equal the P or T economy. Imagine going 9p, and by the 9 minute mark you're still making lings, you have maybe 10, 11 drones. The P has 40 probes mining, and he's still not entirely saturated, plus he can expo and saturate those 10 patches at nat easily. He can produce far more zealots than normal by around the 3-4 minute mark when he starts getting more money than on low money (i.e. 10+ probes) and can then afford say 6 gate zealot when on low money 3 gate would still be economically demanding. At that point, your lings no longer match him as they would in low money. Zerg falls off exponentially as the game progresses.
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yep, which is why I think normal Hunters is better overall.
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United States4991 Posts
I'm on as GandalfTheGay playing on east with Zelniq.
Shoot me a /w if you want to play.
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I have Frodo
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CA10824 Posts
it was fun playing w/ you guys tonight!
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United States4991 Posts
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Pretty cool thread, I got into 3v3 BGH about 10 years ago and it's still surprising how one can get a game now. I remember making so many friends from the US and Canada for years through playing BGH seriously.
Oh man the nostalgia. The public game qualities of BGH seems to be pretty bad nowdays though in USEast especially.
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I recommend not to ever play public games in east or west for BGH. There are 3 Main reasons for this.
#1 Most pubs have no Idea how to play and will just make BGH seem boring.
#2 There will be a 80% chance you will have a lagger in each public game you join.
#3 Hackers while I never really cared to vs them but most will disc hack you once have the advanage.
So for anyone who would like to play BGH I would recommend do 2v2 BGH inners. Get a partner and go to )V( in east and spam 2v2 BGH team Msg. For the lower skilled try to join a 3v3 BGH inner game I usally do those myself. Or if you don't have a partner just go to the channel and say any inners going? If no one responds and if you have the time just do other things and go back to the comp every 5 mins and ask. Because I would never play a public game again since I don't like to waste the little time I have for gaming.
Huascar
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thanks to your strategical advices i managed to win in a 3on3 on hunters keeping all of your tips in mind, was amazing how much easier it felt for me to play that game compared to those before reading the thread.
your advices seem so simple and logic, yet i always tended to get consumed by tactical action (micro) and logistics(macro), so that i lost my thoughts microing/macroing and didnt pay attention to reforming my strategically thoughts in mind (im a rather bad zerg-player and tend to get consumed by playing VERY stressfully/at a fast pace, so that might explain what happened before), but thanks to this post i kept reminding myself what the situational goal was and not trying to force a fast victory which then often leads to irreversible doom.
btw here is the replay (dont know whether it would contribute to the thread or not since it is hunters and i cannot claim the players to be gosu, posting anyways) im forever.noob in this rep
thx again, keep up the good work
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holy crap. that is a long read. i have an idea. how about drop reavers in the "holes" where tanks normally go, and let the reaver hug the minerals. if done correctly, the scarab could jump over the minerals.
i may be being a newb, though. the scarabs jumping over minerals trick may only work in certain directions
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Really sick guide Peter/everyone else that contributed.
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last night was fun even though we sucked at times and made Hnr go rage mode haha.
There were so many priceless moments last night, too funny.
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CA10824 Posts
my zerglings were gosu in that one game last night!
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This is one of the greatest posts I've ever seen. The statistics are so beautiful. thankyou so much.
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BGH is really unbalanced huh? great strategy thread though. :D
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On April 17 2009 06:14 LosingID8 wrote: my zerglings were gosu in that one game last night!
which game, I lost so many times I can't remember all of them
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goodness, this is impressive so much to internalize.. thanks for all the info
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United States4991 Posts
On April 17 2009 06:03 Ace wrote: last night was fun even though we sucked at times and made Hnr go rage mode haha.
There were so many priceless moments last night, too funny. Haha don't worry, I always go rage mode :D
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bgh replays are the best replays! thanks for this i love it
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Post when youre playing plz.
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I'll be playing again in about 20-30 minutes, I'm idling in op tl-west right now.
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CA10824 Posts
On April 17 2009 06:49 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2009 06:14 LosingID8 wrote: my zerglings were gosu in that one game last night! which game, I lost so many times I can't remember all of them the one where i was the white zerg at 1 and peter was raging about how 2 allies can't keep a single zerg trapped in base
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ah yea that was me on his team. Zelniq went to get a flashlight for his dad and didn't tell us LOL.
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Were on west, join us if you want, im bluelaguna.
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On April 16 2009 14:02 NoobsOfWrath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2009 13:35 artofmagic wrote:can somebody explain Zerg is weak on BGH due to the limitation of larvae: Zerg can't keep up economically while still having an army; either they are forced to not have an army (in which case the game is lost), or else they don't have much of an economy and lose relevance as the game goes on. -limitation of larvae.. meaning zerg cant produce fast enough?(cant this be fix by more hatchery?) -cant keep up economy ??? No. It's because of the number of minerals. Terran and protoss can continue making workers and receive a LOT more money and saturation than they would on a low money map or hunters. 15 mineral patches = a ton of money for toss and terran. Normally, say, you have 9 drones on low money, that's 1 drone on each patch. On BGH, it's 9/15. On BGH, once T or P has more than 8 miners, they're already getting more money than comparative time on low money. Zerg isn't, if they 9 pooled. The economic imbalance builds up enormously over time. You might ask if it's possible to just 12h and make pure drones and keep up that way. Yes, it is possible to keep up in workers, but then your tech and units will be wayyy behind and you will have no defense either. The economy problem is insurmountable. Zerg is only strong early game with good 9p micro and late game when they have enough drones to equal the P or T economy. Imagine going 9p, and by the 9 minute mark you're still making lings, you have maybe 10, 11 drones. The P has 40 probes mining, and he's still not entirely saturated, plus he can expo and saturate those 10 patches at nat easily. He can produce far more zealots than normal by around the 3-4 minute mark when he starts getting more money than on low money (i.e. 10+ probes) and can then afford say 6 gate zealot when on low money 3 gate would still be economically demanding. At that point, your lings no longer match him as they would in low money. Zerg falls off exponentially as the game progresses. your totally right. thanks! i have the an instinct of this but just cant put it into words.
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I'll be in op tl-west on U.S. West, or bouncing in and out of games if anyone is up for it right now.
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I love BGH, especially when I'm playing with my homies.
Try channel "motel" (without quotes) on USEast for some decent 1v1ers or low money players, you might even find some BGHers there too.
I must admit though, marlboro has seen it's fair share of drama recently, what not with all the hackers running rampant nowadays -_- (BTW, If you see i.Own, say hi to him for me, he's the most GOSU BGHer in existence, /end sarcasm)
Some good tips in BGH:
Have a good and creative title; try not to stack teams unless you're playing with friends,
The most common build for Protoss in BGH is most definitely 2gate-zealot pump, into whatever tech build you wish. For Terran, it's probably a wall-in with 1fact starport into tank drop, god dam noobs don't know anything else besides that -_-. And for zerg, it's probably 9pool or 12hatch-11pool.
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On April 19 2009 06:58 Disintegrate wrote: I love BGH, especially when I'm playing with my homies.
Try channel "motel" (without quotes) on USEast for some decent 1v1ers or low money players, you might even find some BGHers there too.
I must admit though, marlboro has seen it's fair share of drama recently, what not with all the hackers running rampant nowadays -_- (BTW, If you see i.Own, say hi to him for me, he's the most GOSU BGHer in existence, /end sarcasm)
Some good tips in BGH:
Have a good and creative title; try not to stack teams unless you're playing with friends,
The most common build for Protoss in BGH is most definitely 2gate-zealot pump, into whatever tech build you wish. For Terran, it's probably a wall-in with 1fact starport into tank drop, god dam noobs don't know anything else besides that -_-. And for zerg, it's probably 9pool or 12hatch-11pool.
There is a reason the channel is )V( now, and that's because motel is dead, and has been for months. Additionally, motel was never a good place to find 1v1s or low money games....it always was a BGH channel, as is )V(.
I know it's your first post and that's good but you basically just repeated the exact same shit that's in the OP, only wrong, because the most common build is definitely 3 gate zealot for P, MM for T, and 9 pool for Z.
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I LOVE ZEALOTS!!! THEY ARE MY FAVOOOORITE.
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I'm in op tl-west for BGH right now if anyone's interested.
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very nicely written guide. i don't even play BGH and i got something out of it to apply in other games.
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Poeta
Peru278 Posts
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Since it IS on bgh, anyone here like Phantom BGH?
Its funny when i just go 1gate tech to mass Sgates and just rape everyone with my scouts. Although, it is annoying when terran fills every possible space in their base with turrets.
Anyone else like it?
Also when terrans go turtle big It can be very annoying But my scouts rape those turrets and I would just be toying
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Croatia9363 Posts
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if u guys wanna check infernal's bgh check the last rep 2pac uploaded :D
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On April 22 2009 22:18 ted. wrote: if u guys wanna check infernal's bgh check the last rep 2pac uploaded :D ok.. but where O_o
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its the one with mtw-amd-infernal in it
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I have a 4v4 BGH tournament coming up. Any ideas on how to play this? There are no rules (i.e. any amount of zerg allowed per team). My team is composed of:
D- player (main is toss) D, D+ player (main is terran) C player (main is toss) C+ player (main is terran, toss)
We aren't playing top players, it's just a fun fundraiser. Most of us (except maybe the D-) can easily learn zerg at least well enough to do this.
Some strategies we came up with, what do you think? 1. 4z, self explanatory 2. 1z, 1t, 2p. Tier 1 attack (mnm, zealot, zergling) while D- techs straight to dt's.
Thanks.
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If you aren't going to use any Z, 2P going zeals and 1 Terran going MM is probably going to rape the living shit out of any players on a team that aren't "good". The other Terran just turtles early and breaks out with mech. Take the middle of the map and just destroy everything. Of course positions and whether you don't get like double 4 pooled helps
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I've been playing 2v2v2v2 BGH's with a RL friend of mine. We won some, lost some at first, but then eventually every game ended up us vs. two Protosses massing Carriers. Frustrating as hell, especially since we were randoming. Not easy to beat mass Carriers as double Terran, for example.
Then we just started going Terran (me) and Zerg (buddy) and EMP/Plaguing them. Works wonders, hehe.
Last night, we brought another RL friend in for 3v3 BGH. Haven't lost yet - thanks, in part, to the tips here.
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double Terran vs 2 toss going mass carriers?! Epic double 3/3 mech push ftw. Seriously they'd be pretty fucked by mid-game if you survive to start cranking shit out of 8 factories. Im guessing your positions were so far apart it was hard to link armies up.
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2v2v2v2s, as FFAs are strange like that.
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About controlling the center. Sometimes it doesn't work. Hear me out! Players can move around through the 1 and 3 o clock positions. If a player invests into mining up the center or cannoning up, and the enemies just decide to avoid it, then that player is ridiculously set back. I don't know why. It just doesn't work very often whenever I take the center or my enemies do.
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On May 17 2009 11:10 obesechicken13 wrote: About controlling the center. Sometimes it doesn't work. Hear me out! Players can move around through the 1 and 3 o clock positions. If a player invests into mining up the center or cannoning up, and the enemies just decide to avoid it, then that player is ridiculously set back. I don't know why. It just doesn't work very often whenever I take the center or my enemies do.
Maintaining control of the center is more about having superior unit count/composition than "mining up" or "cannoning up" the center. Having control of the center is VERY important in any kind of decent level 2v2 or 3v3 BGH game. Also if you or one of your allies have vults w/ mines in play obviously you would mine in ALL the enemies and not just leave the 1/3 base free and clear =/.
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anyone wants to play with me and a friend on east for fun? we just started playing bw again not long ago so dont expect too much :O edit: forgot to put my username T_T, if you want to play just whisper EunJuEffect on USEast
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OMFG THIS GUIDE is the best guide ever made!!! 10/10
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bump for one of my favorite threads
p.s. you should include more BOs in specific situations
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What are decent builds as a P in a 3v3 vs. a ZZT team, where zergs go 9 pool into 3 hatch speedlings of some sort, while T goes straight vultures? You need zealots and probably +1vs. zergs, but also ranged dragoons/obo vs the T. You don't really have time for both before the vultures show up.
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Haha, thats neato thanks for the post
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Croatia9363 Posts
On February 05 2010 07:12 citi.zen wrote: What are decent builds as a P in a 3v3 vs. a ZZT team, where zergs go 9 pool into 3 hatch speedlings of some sort, while T goes straight vultures? You need zealots and probably +1vs. zergs, but also ranged dragoons/obo vs the T. You don't really have time for both before the vultures show up. Assuming that you wont play a 1v3, I'm gonna go ahead and write strategy for the PPP v ZZT (in short of course): PPP v ZZT: It's no secret that a PPP is the best team on the BGH and there are few other teams that comes close to it. Unfortunately, ZZT is not one of them. If we take formula from easternPROTOSS' teamplay guide about initiative where Z is worth 3pts, P 2pts and T 1pt, we'd get a final tally of ZZT with 7pts and PPP team with 6pts. So you see, none of the teams actually have big advantage of early map control. With both Z 9pooling they'll have a slight advantage (that 1pt), but P's from opposite team shouldn't play defensive just cause of that. Instead, P's should all go 3 Gateway Zealot/Dragoon build to fend off the initial double rush by Z's. Of course, Z's will both attack the same player as that is their only chance to make this an early 3v2 game, and obviously that P should be on the defensive. The closer ally of P should go help him as soon as they saw who the Z's will rush (scouting with probe in beginning helps while keeping it alive as long as possible). Third P should just keep moving his units around the map, picking off the reinforcements of Z's and, if possible, close the T with a pylon wall (depends on position of T). 3 Gateway Dragoon build is the best in this match-up for P's, while that doesn't necessarily means that all P's actually make Dragoons. One P makes Dragoons, other mixed Zeals/Dragoons and other pure Zeals with Archons (of course with upgraded speed for Zeals). Once you successfully defended from double 9pool rush and actually closed T long enough for Dragoons to arrive, there's actually no way that a 3P team can lose this game at this point. Disclaimer: Of course there are various ways to play this match-up, and the game could go any way depending on all kinds of variables (positions, skill level, teamplay etc...), but I just gave my honest opinion giving all things are equal.
If anyone of you have any other questions about BGH strategy, go ahead and ask, I'll give my best to answer them.
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The 3 gate dragoon build gets the core at 38 supply, correct? Vultures and mines come a lot earlier than dragoons in this scenario. Zergs can keep you pretty busy with speedlings up to that point.
PS: PPP vs ZZT is exactly what I was wondering about, good pick!
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Croatia9363 Posts
Yes, you're right. I didn't actually think through my last post, but PPP is so much superior than a ZZT team that there are a lot of things you could do and still win. For example, one P can go 2 Gateway Dragoon build (even 1 Gateway Dragoon build if he has good position) or 2 Gateway Forge and canon in T until goons arrive etc.
Zergs can keep busy 1 P or at most 2 Ps while 3rd will be able to do whatever he want. Also, it's really easy to close in a Zerg on a map like BGH. Depending on the positions, but most of the positions don't require more than 7 zealots to make a zeal wall, thus rendering lings almost useless.
If you want, I can provide you a few PPP v ZZT replays on BGH and you'll see various ways in which they were played and it will definitely give you a better idea why a PPP team almost always wins.
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If you have PPP V ZZT reps with ling/ling/vultures, I would love to see them, thanks!
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Croatia9363 Posts
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I recently started up SC with some buddies again. I tend to play protoss or zerg and my other friend tends to play terran. My third friend plays whatever.
We've been having alot of difficulty in early or mid game. We either have one of us get rushed and killed or we get mutalisk rushed or we just get mid game rushed. Are the builds above still useful for the way BGH is played now?
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BGH is a great place to practice macro and teamwork. without those things, you team is totally screwed. nice thread very informative. didn't realize there was so much more to BGH
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Yeah. It seems like there'd be alot more talk about this map since it seems as if it's the only map East plays.
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This is great because i usually play iccup since BGH fills US west
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Me and some buds are having major issues with BGH. We played PTT vs PPT. Any help on this replay for UNFAZD, Riffraff and TheChiang. Replay is only 9 minutes (we didn't last long).
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=34888
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Ahhh was exspecting a massive thread but its only 7 pages :/
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Croatia9363 Posts
On April 29 2010 14:43 UNFAZD wrote:Me and some buds are having major issues with BGH. We played PTT vs PPT. Any help on this replay for UNFAZD, Riffraff and TheChiang. Replay is only 9 minutes (we didn't last long). http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=34888
Well, the first problem with your game in that replay is not even BGH related. Your both macro and micro are sub par, which is perfectly understandable considering you only started to play the game again. These things only come with practice, so that's the first step you need to take in order to get better. Even though it's not a perfect measurement criteria, your APM should indicate you on how much you're improving. Now you don't need to aim for 200+ APM, but a nice round 100 APM will mean your micro and macro improved, thus leaving you time to focus on other things, BGH related, like build orders and strategy.
That's another thing, build orders. You should read Build Orders guide here and then memorize (or write on a piece of paper) some of the build orders and practice them constantly, until you can do them without even thinking about it. To be good at BGH, build orders are the most important thing for beginners and executing them properly every time is not easy even for some good players, because unlike what most people think, BGH is completely micro oriented map and most of time you need to be focused on your units. That's where hotkeys help and you should start using them for making units while microing your units on the other side of the map.
But this is all general knowledge about SC, which will help you improve on any map, not just BGH. Things that separate BGH from the rest of the maps comes in later stages, and that's the Team Play. easternPROTOSS wrote an excellent guide about Team Play on BGH which is posted here on main page, but I don't think you should focus on it too much now, since those are the things that are meant for players who mastered the mechanics of the game. Maybe you could read it to give you a general idea on how the high level BGH game looks like.
Ok, I don't know what else to say other than keep practicing, BGH is getting more and more enjoyable as you get better and better, trust me. Also, watching BGH replays will help you no doubt and here you can find a lot of them: http://www.thebgh.com/component/replays?view=search
If you have any other questions, I'll be glad to help.
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That was quite helpful. I'll get back to you when I come up with more questions. Cheers!
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This is beautiful. We need more posts like this. =D
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 07 2010 23:49 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2010 07:12 citi.zen wrote: What are decent builds as a P in a 3v3 vs. a ZZT team, where zergs go 9 pool into 3 hatch speedlings of some sort, while T goes straight vultures? You need zealots and probably +1vs. zergs, but also ranged dragoons/obo vs the T. You don't really have time for both before the vultures show up. Assuming that you wont play a 1v3, I'm gonna go ahead and write strategy for the PPP v ZZT (in short of course): PPP v ZZT:It's no secret that a PPP is the best team on the BGH and there are few other teams that comes close to it. Unfortunately, ZZT is not one of them. If we take formula from easternPROTOSS' teamplay guide about initiative where Z is worth 3pts, P 2pts and T 1pt, we'd get a final tally of ZZT with 7pts and PPP team with 6pts. So you see, none of the teams actually have big advantage of early map control. With both Z 9pooling they'll have a slight advantage (that 1pt), but P's from opposite team shouldn't play defensive just cause of that. Instead, P's should all go 3 Gateway Zealot/Dragoon build to fend off the initial double rush by Z's. Of course, Z's will both attack the same player as that is their only chance to make this an early 3v2 game, and obviously that P should be on the defensive. The closer ally of P should go help him as soon as they saw who the Z's will rush (scouting with probe in beginning helps while keeping it alive as long as possible). Third P should just keep moving his units around the map, picking off the reinforcements of Z's and, if possible, close the T with a pylon wall (depends on position of T). 3 Gateway Dragoon build is the best in this match-up for P's, while that doesn't necessarily means that all P's actually make Dragoons. One P makes Dragoons, other mixed Zeals/Dragoons and other pure Zeals with Archons (of course with upgraded speed for Zeals). Once you successfully defended from double 9pool rush and actually closed T long enough for Dragoons to arrive, there's actually no way that a 3P team can lose this game at this point. Disclaimer: Of course there are various ways to play this match-up, and the game could go any way depending on all kinds of variables (positions, skill level, teamplay etc...), but I just gave my honest opinion giving all things are equal. If anyone of you have any other questions about BGH strategy, go ahead and ask, I'll give my best to answer them.
A more general question about this. It seems this assumes that Terran goes factory units. Are MNM when using TZZ team bad? In 2:2, TZvsPP usually uses mechanic, but anyone who plays TZvsPZ knows that MNM is typically more effective. Now, there are no zergs for the Terran to fight, which may lead some to think that MNM are bad vs PPP, but what are the spcific reasons? (I'm assuming most high level BGHers don't use it, or you would've mentioned it) but if TZZ already has the initiative just from dual9p, couldn't that initiative, and thus, map control be further extended by employing MNM?
Sure, some damage will have to be done (but since you have initiative with dual 9p anyway, a dual 9p + 2rax should only be more effective for taking the initiative) if TZZ hopes to make it to mid or even late game, but TZZ's mnm+ling should tear through zealot+goon in the earlier phases of the game (unless the map really favors protoss that much, I haven't gotten a chance to play specific matchups on BGH, so I really don't know).
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The reason you don't use m/m against PPP on BGH is because although firebats and medics are really strong against zealots, you need to reach a critical mass of infantry for it to work, and that's right around the time where the player on the PPP team that teched is getting templars or reavers, which m/m have a really hard time dealing with. At that point you need to transition to mech, and the 3-8 barracks you have rapidly become useless except as fluff mass in flanks.
OR you could open mech and have the initiative with mines and vulture harass then just continue pumping off of the factories you have.
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Is it not possible for the zerg to tech as well? I don't know if getting decent muta counts are impossible, but aren't muta>>reavers and muta>templar. Also, mnm terran can use vessels to emp ht, but I imagine this is harder vs PPP than vs PZ.
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The higher level games are so focused that mass zergling is pretty much your only option. Tech is cute but you usually won't be able to against a good team if you want to keep up with their mass. Eventually you have to transition to something, but because z's tech comes into play so much later than P's it's hard to make the switch. Considering that they can always 3-man zealot rush your team if they don't maintain superior mass and map control, it's pretty dangerous for a zerg to tech. On top of that, mutas in groups of less than 24 won't even phase most toss armies, and to get to the point where you can have that much gas and that much production on BGH means that you mass ling for a long time and suddenly burst into muta production. 2 gas isn't enough to run a muta army that can handle a toss army in a straight fight, and it's so easy to cannon your minerals in BGH that harassment is usually not cost-effective. Really zerg has no big weapons on BGH and that's why they're considered the weakest of the 3 races.
And you're kidding yourself if you think you can get to EMP on BGH against 3 toss as a bio terran.
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Yea, well I do not really know, which is why I am asking. Thanks, though.
BGH is interesting to know about, even though the likelihood of me even getting any number of serious or interesting games dwindles with the coming of SC2. `_`
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holy gawd never knew there can be so much research into BGH... wonder why isnt the same thing done for LT. imo LT would make an interesting 1v1 money map
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ZZT can go mm and play early game rush out. ive seen this happen even high level gaming, but its very delicate it works best if the terran is very close to at least 1 toss to just rally with 99 pools. if only 1 toss goes down its still an even game. PP vs ZZT (bioT) is quite easy to beat. cannon zealot on the choke to buy time then storm is the counter of choice vs mm @ high lvl. reavers usually arent used pvt on bgh in teamgame (mm/tank > reaver harass or zealot/goon/ reaver. reavers are so micro intensive and require so much time to babysit that its typically more apm efficient to opt for storm which is just instantaneous death to blobs of marines.). zerg masses lings because protoss's will just mass zealot and you have to have something to match with. zerg tech is has to be transitioned to but its very position / match up/ game dependent. vs dual/triple toss hydras is ALWAYS the better option, mutas can be effective but they can get blocked out so easily that it makes them more of a coin flip than actually useful units. if mutas gets blocked/ countered its likely gg at the top level. hydras on the other hand are great tank support and are the safest option since toss has to get observer anyway lurker is redundant and already countered since z wont have enough gas to really mass up a nice formation of lurkers that would be useful even vs obs toss. you have to transition but you follow gameflow timings. when mines are out is the proper tech transition timing unless the other team just really fucks something up and u have no worrys of being attacked. in zzp you would drone when goons take control of the map with a nice mass or you end up just killing the first attack. ZZZ is really pretty imbalanced vs PPP its actually quite easy (3 9 pools is impossible to stop, even bisu would get run over vs some decent team microers), and especially effective if you only picked 1 zerg. then likely the tosses wouldnt cannon as they would if they saw the other team pick triple z.
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TTZ and TTT are the worst racial combinations to have. those depend fully on positions whether or not its doable. if a TZ or TT get 11/12 and to a lesser extent 6/7 it can be fair. typically if a TTZ team makes 1 mistake in high lvl bghing its totally over. but a PPZ team vs a TTZ team can make many mistakes and still win easily.
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I dunno, 11/12 means that they're well defended but can't take any expos, 6/7 means that they have expo spots but honestly 6/7 is about as split as 5/3.
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it means they can preform an early game attack without worrying about being separated. 6/7 can be separated much easier than 11/12. 1 rack at the choke and the other person doesnt have to worry about def. a ppz team wouldnt utilize this because they already sit on map control but a dual terran team would certainly take advantage of that. taking expos is arbitrary to early game. thats not something you would even consider because the gameflow is so up in the air at that point. and if TZ got 11/12 then zerg can go 12 hp 3 hat mutas off of 3 gas which is a fucking REALLY strong build if u have no need to support allies 11/12 opens SO many doors for build order decision because pretty much anything can work. it just depends on the match up and the situation. if you can make an early game attack or gain control of the middle then certainly you can take expos. a top bgh team would be more focused on making a successful attack. and if dual terran doesnt get separated in the start then they have a damn good chance at setting up the middle with tanks, which means they can expo.
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But obviously 11/12 rax block leaves one person undefended on the map? Toss cannons the 12 choke out of range with backup before moving out to kill the other person. Suddenly it's 3v2 and no matter what your tech is you're fighting a losing battle with no good spots to expo and on top of that you're contained in a tiny choke.
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dude you dont have to go marines @ 11/12. cannons would probably be the dumbest thing vs a TZ cause Z would go either mutas or a shit ton of hydras either way cannons would be pretty stupid. TT would go mm/tank or mm/tech, double tech or tech/cliff, again cannons uselss. the best response would just have alot of goons and faster dts with storm maybe a dt drop or something tricky, zerg on ppz team would want faster mutas with matchin econ. the preson outside 11/12 would do a safe build. trust me man i play koolam / merf / pac and all the other top bghers everyday man. i know the situations and im well versed in bgh game theory. pac and i and 3 others are also admins @ http://www.thebgh.com if you are interested in our replay section. or if you wanna inny sometime im on east/europe alot@ fexofinadine.
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tank cliffing is a bit unfair due to the positional imbalances.
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I'm just saying that if you spawn 11/12/x when you're TTZ you'll still have a hard game against any competent PPP team.
On May 17 2010 00:48 rich- wrote: it means they can preform an early game attack without worrying about being separated. 6/7 can be separated much easier than 11/12. 1 rack at the choke and the other person doesnt have to worry about def. Oh okay, an early game attack, I see--
and if TZ got 11/12 then zerg can go 12 hp 3 hat mutas off of 3 gas Wut?
You say something about TZ going 3 hatch muta off of 3 gas but really how is that an early attack? You're sacrificing a teammate for tech that's pretty much hard-countered by anything a protoss does. I understand the timing window but honestly no matter how you look at it 11/12 with a rax block is just asking for your teammate to get killed, especially if they're Z or T. What safe builds are there against 3 man zealot storm? You can counter or save him and if you're 11/12 you can't exactly save him, especially if the zerg is doing something that takes as long as hydras or mutas and the T's not going rines. The cannons aren't stupid if you do it for the timing, rines and lings that try to get out will have a hard time if the cannons get up, and the best case scenario is that you kill them and are left with a small army incapable of saving your third man because it's still at least 2v1.
All I'm saying is that PPP vs TTZ is a really hard matchup, regardless of position.
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first of all stop being a nit picker you are obviously taking statements completely out of context. i made 1 example of a build order that you COULD do, then you made it look like i was defining this single build order to "an early game attack." furthermore that build was for just 1 player out of 3.
All I'm saying is that PPP vs TTZ is a really hard matchup, regardless of position. well im saying that you are completely wrong, because 11/12 makes TTX vs XXX match ups immensely easier, not balanced still but surely massively easier than if you are spread.
ttz requires a slower strategy than PPZ teams. you have to build up to a critical mass before you can move effectively with terran. what i mean by an "early attack," clearly depends on your racial combination. a ZZZ team early game attack would be 3 9 pools @ the 2-3 minute mark. a TTZ team early game attack would obviously not be at the 2-3 minute mark. furthermore if 11/12 gets cannoned (worst case scenario for the 3rd terran, or zerg [even worse]) you would just focus on staying alive by going mm with range first with wall and probably at least 2 bunkers and scvs ready to repair, this situation is VERY livable; ive seen it done so many times on the top level. if you were zerg you would opt for a 12 pool hatch no gas directly into sunkens, even then you may still die. 3v1 is very difficult but if you work as a team and know when youre about to get 3v1'd you can plan your build accordingly, and if you do live to kill their attack then your team sits on a very nice lead. which means when 11/12 breaks out its likely gg. now i expect to see your next post grabbing more random sentences from this post then re-arrange them as to distort their meaning then ask "what? youre not making sense." id also be willing to play your team ttz vs your ppp and see what happens.
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On May 18 2010 08:21 rich- wrote:Show nested quote +All I'm saying is that PPP vs TTZ is a really hard matchup, regardless of position. well im saying that you are completely wrong Okay, you win.
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again your quote cuts my sentence short, thus changing its meaning. [again] nicely done.
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god you are such an idiot. anyway that aside id still like to play your team TTZ (me) Vs PPP (you). ill bet money you would still get smashed, because not only do you have no idea what youre talking about, but likely you suck at executing any type of game theory into actual play.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
Hey everyone,
Good to see so much action in this topic, BGH being still very much alive. I'd like to take a moment to announce (and you're gonna be the first to hear this ) that we're soon launching a BGH portal on Liquipedia.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Portal:BGH
It's been worked on by one man only and I'm sure he could use some help. There's a lot of stuff already but it's far from done. So, if you'd like to contribute, please feel free to do so! If you need any help come to #liquipedia on Quakenet and ask me or any other mod for help. Cheers!
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I can't believe I haven't seen this thread before, because it's amazing! I'll have to start playing some BGH again now that I've read this.
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Croatia9363 Posts
On May 20 2010 15:48 Pholon wrote:Hey everyone, Good to see so much action in this topic, BGH being still very much alive. I'd like to take a moment to announce (and you're gonna be the first to hear this ) that we're soon launching a BGH portal on Liquipedia. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Portal:BGHIt's been worked on by one man only and I'm sure he could use some help. There's a lot of stuff already but it's far from done. So, if you'd like to contribute, please feel free to do so! If you need any help come to #liquipedia on Quakenet and ask me or any other mod for help. Cheers! Sorry I haven't replied to your PM yet, but I've been super busy lately.
I'll stop by in IRC soon to have more talk about this ^^ (btw, it looks amazing -.-)
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Wow...just read this post O_O Thanks for the tips/help for BGH :D
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anyone still have gas mining efficiency pictures? also the mineral ones too, but not as important
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Wow, I was a dick in this thread 4 years ago. Sorry! Btw I expanded the bgh 3v3 section today on liquipedia with a double terran match up guide; it seemed to be a missing piece.
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Croatia9363 Posts
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bgh is awesome. i used to think zerg was weak but then i realized i wasn't playing em right. this is pub games btw but still, i used to either suck in mid-late, or i would die to some mid game attack (esp. vs m&m)
lurker timing is key vs m&m, u need 3 hatcheries fairly fast (but can start 3rd after lair starts in techy builds), and good sim city on sunkens... ling lurker can work, throw in a few hydras sometimes... it all depends on the races of the other team... 2 hotkey of hydra and 1 of lurk with a few ovies can bust or contain a protoss (esp. with hydra dancing and taking cover over lurkers)... throw lings in to tank for hydra... ling hydra is a fun style (4 hatch fast) but can get caught off guard... muta is important in games with zerg on the other team, but sometimes u can spore up and rely on random hydras but u really need a squad of muta asap, well it helps anyway...
for late game, hydra guardian proved most versatile without being too micro intensive... ultra pretty joke unit always getting stuck... u gotta get ur econ up nicely in the beginning by pumping drones behind sim city sunkens... depending on what ur teammates are doing u can make few lings until you have a decent drone count like 27...
don't ask me how this fares against m&m tank + 4 gate zealot and cannons + 9p speed into muta. its just some guidelines i think are solid... 1 evo chamber only yo. carapace and missile first.
mid game weapons are lurker, muta, and hydra drop late game u need greater spire (guardian really the only way to fight tank and storm on this choke point of a map) and in some rare cases dark swarm
oh also, good build is 12pool, hatch, sunken, hatch, gas, lair, gas, hydra den ... ling speed right after start lair unless there is a lot of action on the map... sometimes there isn't and each player is just powering up to their mid game (m&m, zealgoon, etc.)
bgh has interesting dynamics such that u can invest in static d more comfortably since the mineral wont run out and theres many patches to mine from in the main
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dunno if this is the place, but has anyone thought about a new map to replace BGH? i mean, is BGH perfect or can it be improved upon to make a better team arcade map? personally i hate how tight the map is... i mean ultralisks are near useless...
something that is more likely to see mid-late game play sounds pretty cool...
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@ mishimaBeef This map is called (6)Sandpit
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dunno if this is the place, but has anyone thought about a new map to replace BGH? i mean, is BGH perfect or can it be improved upon to make a better team arcade map? personally i hate how tight the map is... i mean ultralisks are near useless...
something that is more likely to see mid-late game play sounds pretty cool...
On the Fish server they have what is basically their own version of big game hunters which is hilarious if you think about it. They are hosting the map all the time if you feel like hopping on Fish.
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On July 04 2014 08:44 WhiteKnight.US wrote:Show nested quote +dunno if this is the place, but has anyone thought about a new map to replace BGH? i mean, is BGH perfect or can it be improved upon to make a better team arcade map? personally i hate how tight the map is... i mean ultralisks are near useless...
something that is more likely to see mid-late game play sounds pretty cool... On the Fish server they have what is basically their own version of big game hunters which is hilarious if you think about it. They are hosting the map all the time if you feel like hopping on Fish.
do you have a pic of the map you could post?
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On July 04 2014 07:56 CardinalAllin wrote:+ Show Spoiler +@ mishimaBeef This map is called (6)Sandpit
dude... at least try... i mean the middle obviously needs to be stretched out more, but:
edit: bummer, image is cut off, need to download then view
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@mishimaBeef: No but basically it was like the old Mucho BGH map where each base had 3 sets of minerals, which at the time I thought was gay, but I don't know why BGH players enjoy BGH anyways.
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well i only have two beefs with bgh i think:
1) too tight, choke points all over the place 2) too much money in the base (it should run out after a while, maybe instead of 20k mineral patches, 5k?). something like 3-5 normal bases of money (9x1500 minerals, 1x5000 gas) or something like that.
yeah maybe something can be done about triple teaming also... like if one guy spawns in the corner alone, etc.
oh and islands seem cool, while siege tank on your main cliff doesn't. basically, there are many ideas that can be used to potentially improve the experience. rocks?
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One other thing I don't like about BGH, is that you can't play SCV Basketball on this map. If you have ever tried, it just doesn't work. I was thinking maybe could edit the map to look more like this:
If anyone would like to help me with this and post more about this idea in this thread please feel free to. By the way, did anyone see the world cup? We might want to start a conversation about that while we're at it.
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On June 21 2014 13:45 rich- wrote: Wow, I was a dick in this thread 4 years ago. Sorry! Btw I expanded the bgh 3v3 section today on liquipedia with a double terran match up guide; it seemed to be a missing piece. lol I randomly opened this thread because I loved BGH and yeah, sorry too hahahaha
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Is there teamliquid BGH group by any chance? I've been trying to get games on iccup but it's hard to find without leavers and such.
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Iccup BGH games are pretty newb. Channel )V( on USEast is the only place where you're going to find decent BGH games.
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Still playing BGH huh rich
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Yeah man. I tried to pick up sc2 and I just didn't have the same amount of fun. It was kinda fun but, it really didn't hold my attention. Neither did D3, played that for about 2 weeks and got bored. Dunno what it is about bw and bgh specifically that's so fun but I'm still hooked. If you want to get some games in sometime, pm me on here or fb.
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