Winner interview will be added after translations are posted.
MSL Round of 4: Analysis by hacklebeast Posted here to draw attention to a good read. Original thread here.
Excerpt: With midterms done, I wanted to spend a little time breaking down the unknown territory that is Hive tech ZvZ (sorry Jaedong and Hydra fans, but this is going to be all about Zero and Great). I. Trends II. Unit roles III. Application prediction IV. Afterthoughts
On February 07 2011 14:19 hacklebeast wrote: *SPOILER* I assume most people know how the Ro8 ended, but If you still want to be surprised, stop reading
With midterms done, I wanted to spend a little time breaking down the unknown territory that is Hive tech ZvZ (sorry Jaedong and Hydra fans, but this is going to be all about Zero and Great). I. Trends II. Unit roles III. Application prediction IV. afterthoughts I Trends I wanted to find some commonalities in Great and Zero’s hive games. Zero and Great both have played 4 such games (3-1 records) with great winning their head to head matchup. What is interesting is that in Greats games, he was the one who went for hive tech first (which from now on will be referred to as “the instigator” from now on because instigator is a cool word and because it is a lot easier to say than “the one who went for hive tech first”) only once, and that was the game he lost. Here is a list of the games I looked at for reference + Show Spoiler +
Winner loser instigator map Zero Roro Zero Polaris rhapsody Zero type-B Zero match point Zero hoejja Zero empire of the sun Great Zero Zero Triatholon Great soulkey soulkey grandline Great soulkey soulkey Circuit Breaker Jaedong Great Great Medusa
Trend 1: The instigator always has an economic BO advantage In all seven games, the instigator either had a 12 pool vs 9 pool or a 12 hatch vs 12 pool (one case of 12hatch vs 9 pool, but since he survived, he still had an economic advantage). This makes sense; the player with more money is able to get away with cutting mutalisks to get the nest+hive+greater spire. So the question is: can we see in instigation with the same BO, or even a BO loss? I don’t think so. The tech already sacrifices nearly 1000 resources, which is 5 mutalisks. Adding that you will need 2 spores per base, we are now down 7. We could compensate by only building spores, but then a control group of lings will win the game.
Trend 2: the instigator will attack with about 2 control groups of lings and fail. This was personally the most surprising trend, and it happened in every game with the exception of Zero vs. Great. I also want to include the trend “the instigator will always have a later spire (and in most cases a lot later),” but its factors in here. When the instigator sees his BO win, the thought process goes something like this “I have the BO advantage, so I should be in a good spot. My enemy has started his lair before me, so I can either abandon the advantage and try to play catch up tech wise, or I can just attack now with my two hatcheries against his one.” This can work in other games and just win outright, but because all of these games didn’t end fast, we only see the failures. Our instigator is now severely behind in tech and is forced to get spores as the only form of tier 1 anti-air (ignoring hydralisks for now). He could tech up, power more drones (he still has the eco advantage) and eventually catch up, but the other option is to just accept that he won’t be able to get the same number of mutas for a while and find other ways to equalize.
Trend 3: an unsupported mutalisk force never beats a supported one Specifically we are talking about queens and devourers. The “why” for this one is obvious, but it can be surprising just how much a couple of queens can compensate for. In the most extreme example 12 mutas, a queen and 2 devourers beat 30 mutalisks (with equal scourge numbers.) It also means that the not instigator is forced to either follow the instigator in tech, or try to win immediately.
Trend 4: The winner always has more bases. The exceptions to this were Zero vs Hoejja and zero vs roro. Again why the person with more bases wins is obvious, but the question is not “why does the person with fewer bases lose,” but, “why does the winner need more bases to win?” And the answer is they don’t. We will talk a bit more about this later, but in most of the games the winner takes more bases to finish off a game they are winning already. II Units The rolls of zerg units in the is matchups are murky due to the lack of examples, so let’s try to add a bit of clarity. drone Starting off simple. The drone’s role only changes from a poor fighter vs zerglings in the early game to no combat use at all later on. overlord Again, a simple unit, but the overlord severs a lot of minor roles beyond its primary function. The overlord provides an easy and invincible scout in the early game (duh). In the mid game it serves as a meat shield in muta battles. While mutalisks will naturaly target other combat units, the splash damage does not. Every shot the overlord takes is a shot that a mutalisk didn’t take. If the overlord takes 150 damage, than that is at least one mutalisk saved, but as far as we know could be 3 mutalisks with 50 health each. As we move to the late game, overlords are needed for detection vs lurkers. They can also drop, but there was only one game with drops, so we’ll ignore this for now. zergling Oh the zergling. It does everything for zerg short of flying. It serves the high dps role of the marine, the protect the ranged unit role of the zealot, the minefield/tank fire drawing role of the zealot, and even the “oh shit I’m losing bad, let’s just send some guys into their base and hope they don’t notice” role of the DT. That’s not to mention that they cost 25 minerals each and can transform into a cloud that makes your units invincible to most others. Specific to this MU, The zergling a los forces the opponent to play more cautiously. You can have map control with a large air force, but it’s a different kind of map control compared to a mech push. While the air force can easily counter a large scale attack, two packs of six zerglings each presents a unique problem. If they are sent to attack different locations, then the opponent is forced to either have already set up defenses (costly, susceptible to run bys and unusable if the enemy isn’t brought to it) or the air force must split (results can be catastrophic is half of the larger air force is attacked by the entire smaller one). The zerglings force caution, and can severely punish over aggression. Mutalisk The other staple of the MU. Oddly, there is little to say about such a fundamental unit. They harshly counter everything below it on the tech tree, and get harshly countered by almost everything above it. There fast, fragile (which can be compensated for through stacking), and have reasonable attack in sufficient numbers. But we all know this. As the game progressive, they lose their effectiveness as devourers, swarm, ensnare and plague dramatically reduce their ability. scourge Their role is similar to the mutalisk in that it shrinks rapidly, but even more so. Once the mutalisk numbers start to get above 25, we see “corsair syndrome” where the scourge just all die before they can attack. The numbers required to attack would not only not be cost effective, but also take super human APM to clone. After the battle moves to the ground, however, they can have a role similar to their role in ZvT: trying to snipe queens and guardians that stray a bit too far from the main force. It is worth noting that in great’s game vs Jaedong, he used scourge to kill overlords. He may have been trying to set up the lurkers he was teching to, or he might have been trying to supply block JD so he could tech safely tech. Either way, its intriguing. Ultimately he lost, but, hey, it was against Jaedong. Who can blame him? queen Of all the units in Broodwar, the queen keeps me up the most at night thinking “there has to be a better way to use these.” Luckily, Zero shares my sentiments, and has been trying to answer the question of how to use them right for the past year. Since there is no holy world in the map pool, we only have to worry about 3 abilities: ensnare parasite, and broodling. The fact that melee units don’t bunch well means that ensnare only works on the mutalisk flocks, but oh is it powerful. Want to engage but have fewer mutalisks than your opponent? POW ensnare just effectively took out 18 percent of them (not to mention that they can’t muta micro any more) Won the battle, and now they are retreating? POW ensnare allows you to clean those game-changing six mutalisks up. Did he just reinforce his mutalisk force? POW ensnare allows for a clean escape. Is his muta micro too gosu for your scourge? POW now he can have all the apm in the world and your scourge will still kill him. Broodling has been suggested as an equivalent to irradiate, and that a late game ZvZ could see clouds of queens in similar fashion (see P.S.). I think that broodling can take on that role, but having a cloud of queens is overkill. That many queens is not necessary (a) because the zerg will never hit 200/200 like it can frequently in TvZ (b) due to the spread out nature of lings, lurkers lose a lot of effectiveness, and do not need to be feared to the same extent and (c) because we do not have the massive M&M ball, zerglings can pick off hanging defilers quite effectively. The only thing that the queens should be overly concerned about is the ultralisks, and the 2-3 that are left over from the air battle I think can be sufficient. The last ability, parasite, is a bit of a mystery to me. I (and dare I say no one who will ever read this) will know how helpful that scouting information can be to a progamer. Yes it provides info, but don’t progamers understand what is going on without that information? And don’t they have other scouting methods that don’t waste APM or energy? Zero did use a few of them against great, so there is some value. I guess I feel that they just aren’t worth it especially when considering that the zerg units are just so cheap. And if the queen finds an expensive unit, it would be better of just killing it. Devourer The devourer, like ensnare, turns unfortunate battles into victories. I encourage everyone who doesn’t understand the acid attack of the devourer to check the liquipedia page http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Devourer (go ahead, no one will think any less of you ) The devourer is the last thing seen before the player switches to the ground, so their role is limited, but if the opponent does not either switch to the ground or get devoureres of their own, their fate is all but sealed. Guardians The Guardian has the same role as they do in ZvT: a quick way to throw away all of your gas and shortly after lose an unexpected change of pace that can potentially kill all workers and cripple the tech tree if not dealt with. I don’t like them personally, and would favor teching do defilers instead. I can almost see them like carriers, staying out of range of the hydraliks and slowly whittling down the numbers. The problem is that carriers don’t have to deal with the smaller range, lower health, lack of an air attack, swarms, and less speed (I think). Soulkey was the only one who used them (in the circuit breaker game), and I admit they did do a lot but I think that they are a mistake to use. Hydralisk Hydralisk are terrible. They do half damage to zerglings, half damage to mutalisks, have the potential to be utterly decimated by guardians (again see soulkey’s usage of how to do it right and great of how to counter it wrong) and are helpless to zerglings and ultralisks that are under swarm. Then why are they so utterly important? Because they are the only thing zerg has that can attack air while under the protection of the swarm. The ensnare, devourers, and plague do a lot to force the transition from air to ground, but having invincible units that can attack you makes it compulsory. But after the mutalisk flock is gone, there is no good reason to use them. Great begs to disagree, and produces them as his first hive unit every time. Its hard to argue with him, considering that the one hive game he lost was against Jaedong, and was killed before actually producing any units. But considering how little they do vs zerglings, and how swam makes them useless, I don’t understand his love for them.
EDIT: There has been some confusion on my stance on the hydralisk. Let me reiterate: THE HYDRALISK, WHEN COUPLED WITH SWARM, IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR IN MOVING THE BATTLE FROM AIR TO GROUND. The distaste I express towards them is after the opponent has moved to an ultralurkerling style army. Hydralisks are bad at combating lurkers (think of them as expensive marines) and the fact that they take 8 shots to kill a zergling means they cant fight them either. I guess that they could take on an army of pure ultra rather cost effectively, but that is unrealistic. And this is all even before swarm. Once swarm hits, the hydralisks have no value in the ground battle. So the hydralisk is very valuable in the small window where you opponent has no ground army, but are not worth it after that. Great has the right idea of using the hydralisks to counter Soulkey's and zero's mutalisk clouds, but once each of them switches to a ground army, it is my belief that Great should stop hydralisk production, which he never does. Lurker The lurker is what I am least sure of in this MU. They can’t fight air, so we can only look at how they fight against ground units. Ultralisks just ignore them. Hydralisks just die, but hydralisks are terrible, and everything kills them as long as they don’t have swarm (and then just most things kill them). I question how good they are vs zerg lings. First thought is “attacking a lot of little units with splash? Only two hits kill one? They sound like a perfect counter! But we have to consider that zerglings do not bunch u-p the same way as marines do, and with good splits, they start to only hit 2-3 per attack. Also consider that they cost lots of gas that could be used on ultras or defilers. In the games they seem to do enough, but I’m just no convinced. In my eyes, I think that the ideal use of them is to morph them after you are done with the terrible hydralisks (I kinda like just adding “terrible in front of the hydralisks, so I will for the rest of this), then place them strategically with some defending bases and some with the main army, mostly to force the use of detectors. But as I said, they might be a staple to the ground army. ultralisk Not much to say on this front either. Ultarlisks tank damage so the lings don’t. Once the defiler/lurker tech is up they can be a nice addition to push the army over the top. The only game with ultras was zero vs great, and I found the ultra:ling ratio to be terrible, like 1:3. I guess it could have something to do with the abundance of lurkers, but I don’t think it is something to take terribly seriously. defiler And the defiler. Arguably the most powerful two spells in the game to have for the matchup (although maelstrom and either storm or irradiate would be rather scary), and consume to boot. The defilers (with the terrible hydralisk) take the mutas out of the sky, and the defilers allow defensive positions to be established that wouldn’t otherwise be possible. It is interesting that every time defiler tech is reached, there are always double mounds. It seems extreme at first, but considering its only an extra 100/100 to get consume and plague that quickly, it made me wonder why zerg doesn’t do it in other matchups. I then realized that plague isn’t that good against the other races. The only other thing I want to bring up is what day[9] once said about how to properly plague in ZvZ. It was in one of his dailies if you want it in audio, and articulated better. He talked about how when you should plague isn’t before the engagement, or even during. If you engage then retreat, the enemy will pursue and stack up as tightly as they ever will (assuming were at the point where we have more than 1 control group so the stacking method is obsolete) and then you plague. I thought that was a cool idea, although I didn’t see it in the games. III Application A recap of how hive ZvZ should look: One player gets an economic advantage, but has slow mutalisks. He defends himself by spring his natural and main. Instead of just making mutalisks, he decides to tech. The opponent fears the tech, and is forced to tech himself. The game moves into muta flock vs muta flock with queen and devourer support. One player realizes that they won’t win that kind of fight, and switches to defiler tech. Once that player gets a good number of defilers and terrible hydralisks, the other one will, in turn, be forced to move to the ground. Then we get ultralurkerling vs ultralurkerling, and we get all the strategic elements of TvT, without the half hour of posturing. So, what was the point of everything I’ve written? It’s so we can look at trends to make some predictions. Before we jump into the games, I need to address a discrepancy. Those who have watched the games and those who picked up on the discrepancy while reading might ask, “wait, the way you described you “ideal” evolution of the game, and how you described the unit’s roles does not match up with great’s style. He won 3 of four and beat zero using the progression you described. What up with that?” Yes Zero uses the strategy I described (that makes it sound like I’m Zero’s mentor doesn’t it. I guess I should say “I described the strategy Zero uses”) and yes he was beaten by great and his terrible hydralisks. The reason that Great won is he treated it as a modern game of starcraft. I’m going to compare it to a starcraft game in 2003 between a veteran (like Boxer) and Great is like a young hot shot (like Iloveoov). Boxer is experimenting with a young game making new exciting unit compositions while Iloveoov says “fuck it, I’m just gonna get a bunch of bases and kill you”. And that’s what Great did. He remembered that this still is starcraft and macroing and expanding are just as (and probably more) important than the micro and unit composition. Zero did expand in his wins, but he did it against weaker competition, and less vigorously than Great did. (for the record that’s not supposed to be derogatory towards any of the four players mentioned I have re3pect for all of these guys, and Boxer and Iloveoov are my favorite two retired starcraft players)
So when we look at the maps, we are looking for 2 things. (1) There is a long rush distance so that early ling pressure won’t win outright. (2) There must be a super easy third gas or a super hard third gas to take * (3) There are relatively few expansions *Ok that sounds weird. If there is a super hard third to take (like say aztec) , zero can prevent it, and great will be forced into a 2 base game vs someone who understands the matchup better. If the third is super easy to take (like a double nat map), then zero will be able to secure it easily and will still be able to compete economically with great.
So, here we go:
Circuit Breaker Zero < Great There has already been a hive game on this map, and that’s as good of an indicator as any that there might be another. That third is a bit more than a hop, skip , and a jump away from the natural, but is it unrealistically far? I think that if we go hive here, Great can find a way to secure it, and win the macro game.
Triathlon Zero < Great The site of hive ZvZ game that they had before. This map does have the double expo I described earlier, but there are just so many expos. While Zero can get up to 3 bases, great can get 4 or 5. Great takes set 2
Dante’s Peak Zero>Great The location of the third is similar to circuit breaker, but the difference is that you can’t choose one of two equally far away gases, and that is just difficult enough to say that Zero can stop it.
Benzene Zero>Great The third is so far away here. Great is going to have a bear of a time securing that, especially considering he abandons air fast. Zero equalizes.
Circuit Breaker Zero>Great I could copy paste my first one, or I could say that zero figures out what he did wrong and adjusts. Zero takes it with his awesome queen usage.
It should be said that there is no reason to think that there will be 5 hive games. So many things have to go right. First Zero (considering that great is reactant in all of his games) must want to instigate, then there must be a BO win for Zero, then great must decide that he doesn’t want to muta all in when he sees zero going for a hive (he probably won’t, its mostly the first two). But hey, this would be rather short if we just said that there will be no hive, and just flip a coin five times right? IV Afterthoughts While watching the games I thought of a few things that I would like to see in the MU.
1. Drops. Zero did one of these and it worked brilliantly, I’m not sure why it didn’t happen in other games. Cracklings have ridiculously high DPS, and they are dirt cheap. Couple that with the fact that Zerg bases are significantly smaller than terran or protoss ones (only 2 factories (hatcheries) and no depots). It can easily take out the workers (which is even scarier in ZvZ because you can’t produce drones and units at the same time) and can definitely destroy a tech tree. And it is just so cheap.
2. Burrow. I think that this has a lot of potential. It can save drones from a ling run by. It can hide defilers that get separated from the main army. It can set up ambushes (like either the terrible hydralisk ambushes on shuttles, or ambushes on mutalisk packs with defilers (like in the day[9] trick I talked about earlier). It can set up zerg scouts to see where large mutalisk flocks are. It can deny expansions. At the very least it will force your opponent to get overlord speed, which costs more than burrow did. And that’s it. Thanks for reading PS:+ Show Spoiler +
Great has declared war against Woongjin’s ZerO in the Round of 4 and made his resolution, “I’ll prove to everyone that my Hive tech macro is not to be taken lightly.”
"If you look at what’s written in the community, there is a lot of talk over 4 Zergs being in the Round of 4, but my thoughts are that even though there are 4 Zergs, the games won’t end quickly or anything like that. Even though it seems like there is less interest in ZvZ compared to any of the other matchups, I will try to do my best to bring it to a Hive tech game, so please watch over me."
Q: Your opponent in the Round of 4 is ZerO, who also has pride in his Hive tech play. "The Zerg players from Woongjin claim that they were the ones that did Hive tech macro play first, but from my viewpoint, I don’t think that that’s true at all. If a game gets taken all the way to Hive tech, then of course I will win."
Q: How will you practice for the Round of 4? "Since I’m in a situation where I have to focus on practicing my Hive tech play, I want to crush ZerO’s pride in his Hive tech play."
Idk guise, idk. But hopefully great will live up to his smacktalk.
Still rooting for Zero though. Hope he advances to the next round.
Thanks for the OP Finale. I've been waiting for this! I almost made one a couple days ago because of the BW drought. But I'm excited to see the games tonight. I plan on coding and drinking lots of mountain dew until then.
There'd best be some hive games up in this shit tonight, otherwise we might have one hell of a disappointing semi's/finals.
I would be fucking STOKED and scream if every single game in the final was hive tech ZvZ, unless Jaedong absolutely roflstomps them opponent, in which I will be happy either way.
With both MSL and GSTL on tonight at the same time, my ability to cram for tomorrow's physics quiz look quite grim indeed. Let's hope these games are worth the GPA loss.
Tomorrow is a holiday so this is like Friday night. I have a cool weekend to look forward to. I may go out later depending on how long this goes. Sitting here with wine and ramen and chocolate, ready for MSL semifinals. If there's ever a time that hive tech ZvZ can be expected, it's tonight.
I can't really think of circumstances better than this.
On February 10 2011 18:12 Rickson wrote: What site is Ssayle watching from? I'd rather listen to the korean commentators...not saying his commentating is bad..i just prefer the original .
On February 10 2011 18:12 Rickson wrote: What site is Ssayle watching from? I'd rather listen to the korean commentators...not saying his commentating is bad..i just prefer the original .
If your korean just go to arirang esports or gom. scan through 23, 28, 34, 57 on cable and they are all broadcasting MSL.
On February 10 2011 18:05 endy wrote: Finally some BW to watch ! Doesn't matter if it's ZvZ, I was dying.
tell me about it.
a glimpse into life without bw...wasn't pretty i tell ya
I had to have dinner with my wife instead of watching BW :'( I mean, I always have dinner with my wife, but I'm watching BW at the same time. Recently I had to find a conversation during dinner. I just realized I could have opened VODs and pretended it was live.
Just kidding. It actually went pretty well. Played iccup a lot and reached C- which was my my goal at the beginning of the season. Also made quite a lot of money playing poker, and went out a lot thanks to Chinese New Years holidays. But it still feels fucking great to watch an MSL semi final when bored at office.
On February 10 2011 18:05 endy wrote: Finally some BW to watch ! Doesn't matter if it's ZvZ, I was dying.
tell me about it.
a glimpse into life without bw...wasn't pretty i tell ya
I had to have dinner with my wife instead of watching BW :'( I mean, I always have dinner with my wife, but I'm watching BW at the same time. Recently I had to find a conversation during dinner. I just realized I could have opened VODs and pretended it was live.
Just kidding. It actually went pretty well. Played iccup a lot and reached C- which was my my goal at the beginning of the season. Also made quite a lot of money playing poker, and went out a lot thanks to Chinese New Years holidays. But it still feels fucking great to watch an MSL semi final when bored at office.
dinner with the wive is overrated. you can do that for the next 20 years.
Now I can sleep in peace having the following objectives reached: 1. A game being taken to Hive tech 2. Zero taking a game off great 3. great eating some of his smacktalk
Perhaps smacktalk is cursed in the individual leagues... But who knows so far.
On February 10 2011 18:57 pylonsalad wrote: Hive tech zvz is like the final frontier of BW. The only phase of any matchup that still feels new and fresh.
hehe, it's kind of like sc2 in that respect. no one really knows anything about it yet. and hopefully it'll become more refined as time passes... right now it's somewhat sloppy still, though zero and great are two of the few people that are "good" at this.
On February 10 2011 18:57 pylonsalad wrote: Hive tech zvz is like the final frontier of BW. The only phase of any matchup that still feels new and fresh.
Indeed. Games like this shows the MUs true potential. Zero and Great are doing a great job pushing ZvZ forward! I can't wait until the day when all games reach this stage. :D
I think zvz lategame just continues to emphasize the aspects of zerg that the early game does when both players are actually able to get multiple tech and multiple bases. It's still a very fast-paced game due to two very mobile armies, and as both players continue to spread themselves out it just gets more chaotic. Would be very hard to keep up with that kind of game in a methodical way and i still don't think either player has a very methodical approach to hive zvz in general yet. Should be very interesting finals!
I think that if there is one thing I can chalk that win up to it would be superior plagues. The drop kept Zero in a superior economic position for basically the whole game, but in terms of army micro, the plagues were the win button.
On February 10 2011 19:01 Lightwip wrote: MBCGame is really lucky that great and zero are around to save them from the ratings failure that is a ZvZ final.
would you rather have them make a fixed final match?
On February 10 2011 18:57 pylonsalad wrote: Hive tech zvz is like the final frontier of BW. The only phase of any matchup that still feels new and fresh.
Indeed. Games like this shows the MUs true potential. Zero and Great are doing a great job pushing ZvZ forward! I can't wait until the day when all games reach this stage. :D
Honestly, from watching this game... if it wasn't for Zero's blunder losing all his drones in his main, great would've died before he got to any significant hive tech. I can't say that bad play is pushing the matchup forward...
On February 10 2011 18:57 pylonsalad wrote: Hive tech zvz is like the final frontier of BW. The only phase of any matchup that still feels new and fresh.
Indeed. Games like this shows the MUs true potential. Zero and Great are doing a great job pushing ZvZ forward! I can't wait until the day when all games reach this stage. :D
Honestly, from watching this game... if it wasn't for Zero's blunder losing all his drones in his main, great would've died before he got to any significant hive tech. I can't say that bad play is pushing the matchup forward...
Hardly, great got evos the instant he looked like he would have a muta disadvantage. Getting an evo when you had mirror builds is usually almost unheard of, and even if one player lost some drones, the usual response would be to try to luck out on scourge micro.
The only way Zero could have killed great without hive is a ling all-in, since great had plenty of spores, and that's not so difficult to block.
EDIT: the point I was trying to make is that great went spores purposely to make it a hive tech game. That's pretty definitely moving the matchup forward.
On February 10 2011 18:57 pylonsalad wrote: Hive tech zvz is like the final frontier of BW. The only phase of any matchup that still feels new and fresh.
Indeed. Games like this shows the MUs true potential. Zero and Great are doing a great job pushing ZvZ forward! I can't wait until the day when all games reach this stage. :D
Honestly, from watching this game... if it wasn't for Zero's blunder losing all his drones in his main, great would've died before he got to any significant hive tech. I can't say that bad play is pushing the matchup forward...
1) I'm talking generally, these two players have been involved in a majority of all Hive tech ZvZ progames of all time.
2) I disagree with your assesment of the situation.
On February 10 2011 18:57 pylonsalad wrote: Hive tech zvz is like the final frontier of BW. The only phase of any matchup that still feels new and fresh.
Indeed. Games like this shows the MUs true potential. Zero and Great are doing a great job pushing ZvZ forward! I can't wait until the day when all games reach this stage. :D
Honestly, from watching this game... if it wasn't for Zero's blunder losing all his drones in his main, great would've died before he got to any significant hive tech. I can't say that bad play is pushing the matchup forward...
Hardly, great got evos the instant he looked like he would have a muta disadvantage. Getting an evo when you had mirror builds is usually almost unheard of, and even if one player lost some drones, the usual response would be to try to luck out on scourge micro.
The only way Zero could have killed great without hive is a ling all-in, since great had plenty of spores, and that's not so difficult to block.
EDIT: the point I was trying to make is that great went spores purposely to make it a hive tech game. That's pretty definitely moving the matchup forward.
What. The moment great spored up, great needed to expand and he would've had a big enough advantage in muta numbers to be able to simply ignore the spores. In the meantime great is burning gas on hive tech...
Zero lost because he went 12 hatch vs 9 pool as far as I could tell? He lost his first hatch and was on the backfoot from there, great was able to capitalise with one fast muta whilst massing lings to make sure the eventual spores didn't invalidate his army. Zero didn't seem to play bad.
I do like ZvZ a bit normally, but it becomes much cooler in a Bo5. Luck gets evened out a little, and more importantly the mindgames take on a much greater role. ZvZ has a mindgame component to begin with, and in the BoX, where mindgames are very important, it takes on an even bigger role. It's fun to think about what's going on behind the decisions that they make in terms of BO and transitioning.
great now heading out with his muta/scourge - rams a muta right into a scourge but now his mutascourge cluster landing tons of hits on zero's muta mass
great able to tackle a few more scourge without taking hits - 2 lings slip into zero's main and as zero's mutas go to pursue great's mutas arrive at his nat
great backs off as zero's mutas come out to defend
zero you are absolutely terrible at this game called starcraft. thank god you didn't make the finals, because jaedong/hydra would have destroyed you. please go play more iccup thx
On February 10 2011 19:36 doothegee wrote: zero you are absolutely terrible at this game called starcraft. thank god you didn't make the finals, because jaedong/hydra would have destroyed you. please go play more iccup thx
his zvz might be bad compared to pro standards but his other mu's are good. ^_^.
On February 10 2011 18:51 HawaiianPig wrote: "If a game gets taken all the way to Hive tech, then of course I will win." -great
Don't you see? This has played out just as Great had planned.
1. Smack talk opponent something along the line of: "you can't beat me in hive tech" 2. Opponent prepares Hive tech play strenuously 3. Win the game before Hive tech.
On February 10 2011 18:51 HawaiianPig wrote: "If a game gets taken all the way to Hive tech, then of course I will win." -great
Don't you see? This has played out just as Great had planned.
1. Smack talk opponent something along the line of: "you can't beat me in hive tech" 2. Opponent prepares Hive tech play strenuously 3. Win the game before Hive tech.
It's all mindgames I tell you! Mindgames!
Stork must have taught him a lesson.
Flash: "I will pwn you with my anti-carrier build thx"
People who keep saying Zero is awful at ZvZ, point out what he did wrong in those games.
Game 1: BO loss to Great's awesomeness Game 2: Hive tech win Game 3: BO loss 9pool vs 12 hatch unless I have this wrong? Game 4: Great is a sexy baller with clever ling tricks.
I mean, Zero got outplayed in games 1 and 4, but not because Zero played bad, but because Great is awesome.
It's fun that Great lost the long game, since he makes that out to be his marquee thing. It was very sound decisionmaking that won it for him, but it seems like it's not as common anymore to set up the ling bust right before muta and Zero wasn't ready for it (I don't actually know if it isn't as common but I haven't seen much of it).
On February 10 2011 19:43 Turbovolver wrote: People who keep saying Zero is awful at ZvZ, point out what he did wrong in those games.
Game 1: BO loss to Great's awesomeness Game 2: Hive tech win Game 3: BO loss 9pool vs 12 hatch unless I have this wrong? Game 4: Great is a sexy baller with clever ling tricks.
I mean, Zero got outplayed in games 1 and 4, but not because Zero played bad, but because Great is awesome.
He can literally beat any player in the world. It's just he chokes at every single opportunity possible.
On February 10 2011 19:43 thopol wrote: It's fun that Great lost the long game, since he makes that out to be his marquee thing. It was very sound decisionmaking that won it for him, but it seems like it's not as common anymore to set up the ling bust right before muta and Zero wasn't ready for it (I don't actually know if it isn't as common but I haven't seen much of it).
On February 10 2011 19:43 Turbovolver wrote: People who keep saying Zero is awful at ZvZ, point out what he did wrong in those games.
Game 1: BO loss to Great's awesomeness Game 2: Hive tech win Game 3: BO loss 9pool vs 12 hatch unless I have this wrong? Game 4: Great is a sexy baller with clever ling tricks.
I mean, Zero got outplayed in games 1 and 4, but not because Zero played bad, but because Great is awesome.
He can literally beat any player in the world. It's just he chokes at every single opportunity possible.
He didn't really choke today. Great's ZvZ is just better overall. Whatever Zero is capable of doing in ZvZ, Great can pull off as well and more.
On February 10 2011 19:53 sinistral wrote: Damn, just got back home and I missed out this series. Apart from game 2 which went hive-tech play, any other games that has hive-tech plays as well?
Something i notice at game 2. There is a timing during on Z Hive when he starts to commit to a good lurkling balance + a few hydras, the other one can switch back to mutas + plague. Zero decided to drop though.
by.great vs ZerO... BO5... i never would have thought to see this day happen. the two best late-game ZvZ in the game... this will be the longest ZvZ in the history.
Great is in the finals - another player from KHAN making it to the final round. Best of luck on securing a gold for the home team. . . Unless Hydra wins over Jaedong.
On February 11 2011 00:06 Garnet wrote: Hydra or Great winning an MSL is just... weird.
Which is why JD has to win. Can't think of something more underwhemling than Hydra or Great winning (yes they are good but they don't bring any star value to BW, which obviously now has competition in SC2).
The fact JD is just better means i'm not too worried though.
Game 2 was exciting. Hive Tech is always cool. But I always find it boring when there is a ten minute period where no one is attacking. Grats to great. I really thought Zero was the better zerg. I dont know how he will match up against JD/Hydra though. I feel like the winner of that MU will be the winner of the msl.
i now know how everyone else felt during the Calm vs Kwanro MSL lol. it really fucking sucks unless you LOVE the random guy that makes it to the final.
On February 11 2011 10:45 Bibbit wrote: But random bad people win the MSL all the time. :O
:O
One's mentioned in your sig!
:O
On February 11 2011 04:02 On_Slaught wrote: Which is why JD has to win. Can't think of something more underwhemling than Hydra or Great winning (yes they are good but they don't bring any star value to BW, which obviously now has competition in SC2).
And why don't they bring any star value to BW? Because they haven't won any titles yet. Which would change if they won a title. Basically if we follow your logic there should have never been a Flash/JD/Bisu/Stork because "Bisu is just a random, he doesn't bring star value like Savior". Repeat ad infinitum right up the complete BW history tree.
On February 11 2011 04:02 On_Slaught wrote: Which is why JD has to win. Can't think of something more underwhemling than Hydra or Great winning (yes they are good but they don't bring any star value to BW, which obviously now has competition in SC2).
And why don't they bring any star value to BW? Because they haven't won any titles yet. Which would change if they won a title. Basically if we follow your logic there should have never been a Flash/JD/Bisu/Stork because "Bisu is just a random, he doesn't bring star value like Savior". Repeat ad infinitum right up the complete BW history tree.
PS: JD is not going to win this MSL.
Hydra is at least up-and-coming, while great has been mediocre for years and has shown no signs of changing.
ive got to be honest. great making it to the finals is way more underwhelming than when calm/kwanro/movie made it to a final. calm destroyed the other top 2 zergs on his way to the final. kwanro had been moderately successful in individual leagues for a while before he reached the finals (several Ro8s, and i THINK he made a semifinals before that?), not to mention he also beat flash on his way to the finals (ironically he ALSO beat zero on his way to the finals lol). movie (who ALSO ALSO beat zero on way to finals rofl) had some of the best PvZ at the time and well at least his final wasnt a mirror lol.
the hardest person great had to play was kal (highest vs Z ELO of any of his opponents thus far, and by a longshot). while that was impressive i guess, that series was way more kal giving it away than great taking it, at least in my most likely biased opinion. hydra/JD is going to fucking CRUSH great :\.
man how many times has it been now that zero lost to someone he shouldnt of and then we get a totally mediocre starleague? rofl. damnit zero, WE ALL WANT YOU TO MAKE A FINAL. FUCKING DO IT ALREADY
Despite ZvZ being partially BO based, this semi is pretty much pointless. Both zero and great lack solid ZvZ, while JD is JD and hydra is like Shine a few months ago.
On February 11 2011 14:42 Ideas wrote: ive got to be honest. great making it to the finals is way more underwhelming than when calm/kwanro/movie made it to a final. calm destroyed the other top 2 zergs on his way to the final. kwanro had been moderately successful in individual leagues for a while before he reached the finals (several Ro8s, and i THINK he made a semifinals before that?), not to mention he also beat flash on his way to the finals (ironically he ALSO beat zero on his way to the finals lol). movie (who ALSO ALSO beat zero on way to finals rofl) had some of the best PvZ at the time and well at least his final wasnt a mirror lol.
the hardest person great had to play was kal (highest vs Z ELO of any of his opponents thus far, and by a longshot). while that was impressive i guess, that series was way more kal giving it away than great taking it, at least in my most likely biased opinion. hydra/JD is going to fucking CRUSH great :\.
man how many times has it been now that zero lost to someone he shouldnt of and then we get a totally mediocre starleague? rofl. damnit zero, WE ALL WANT YOU TO MAKE A FINAL. FUCKING DO IT ALREADY
On February 11 2011 14:42 Ideas wrote: ive got to be honest. great making it to the finals is way more underwhelming than when calm/kwanro/movie made it to a final. calm destroyed the other top 2 zergs on his way to the final. kwanro had been moderately successful in individual leagues for a while before he reached the finals (several Ro8s, and i THINK he made a semifinals before that?), not to mention he also beat flash on his way to the finals (ironically he ALSO beat zero on his way to the finals lol). movie (who ALSO ALSO beat zero on way to finals rofl) had some of the best PvZ at the time and well at least his final wasnt a mirror lol.
the hardest person great had to play was kal (highest vs Z ELO of any of his opponents thus far, and by a longshot). while that was impressive i guess, that series was way more kal giving it away than great taking it, at least in my most likely biased opinion. hydra/JD is going to fucking CRUSH great :\.
man how many times has it been now that zero lost to someone he shouldnt of and then we get a totally mediocre starleague? rofl. damnit zero, WE ALL WANT YOU TO MAKE A FINAL. FUCKING DO IT ALREADY
On February 11 2011 14:42 Ideas wrote: ive got to be honest. great making it to the finals is way more underwhelming than when calm/kwanro/movie made it to a final. calm destroyed the other top 2 zergs on his way to the final. kwanro had been moderately successful in individual leagues for a while before he reached the finals (several Ro8s, and i THINK he made a semifinals before that?), not to mention he also beat flash on his way to the finals (ironically he ALSO beat zero on his way to the finals lol). movie (who ALSO ALSO beat zero on way to finals rofl) had some of the best PvZ at the time and well at least his final wasnt a mirror lol.
the hardest person great had to play was kal (highest vs Z ELO of any of his opponents thus far, and by a longshot). while that was impressive i guess, that series was way more kal giving it away than great taking it, at least in my most likely biased opinion. hydra/JD is going to fucking CRUSH great :\.
man how many times has it been now that zero lost to someone he shouldnt of and then we get a totally mediocre starleague? rofl. damnit zero, WE ALL WANT YOU TO MAKE A FINAL. FUCKING DO IT ALREADY
Nah we all knew he was gonna lose this one =/
what i mean by that is that zero has consistently been a top 10 players since 2009, but he's constantly losing to random people who go on a streak (like movie during EVER09) or just not playing as well as he should (korean air S2 vs free). it's so sad that this is actually the only time he's made a semifinal since lost saga MSL :\
I guess he really is the zerg version of sea (but with slightly better results)
On February 11 2011 14:42 Ideas wrote: ive got to be honest. great making it to the finals is way more underwhelming than when calm/kwanro/movie made it to a final. calm destroyed the other top 2 zergs on his way to the final. kwanro had been moderately successful in individual leagues for a while before he reached the finals (several Ro8s, and i THINK he made a semifinals before that?), not to mention he also beat flash on his way to the finals (ironically he ALSO beat zero on his way to the finals lol). movie (who ALSO ALSO beat zero on way to finals rofl) had some of the best PvZ at the time and well at least his final wasnt a mirror lol.
the hardest person great had to play was kal (highest vs Z ELO of any of his opponents thus far, and by a longshot). while that was impressive i guess, that series was way more kal giving it away than great taking it, at least in my most likely biased opinion. hydra/JD is going to fucking CRUSH great :\.
man how many times has it been now that zero lost to someone he shouldnt of and then we get a totally mediocre starleague? rofl. damnit zero, WE ALL WANT YOU TO MAKE A FINAL. FUCKING DO IT ALREADY
Nah we all knew he was gonna lose this one =/
what i mean by that is that zero has consistently been a top 10 players since 2009, but he's constantly losing to random people who go on a streak (like movie during EVER09) or just not playing as well as he should (korean air S2 vs free). it's so sad that this is actually the only time he's made a semifinal since lost saga MSL :\
I guess he really is the zerg version of sea (but with slightly better results)
Nah, he's not the zerg version of Sea. Sea is very clutch in proleague. Zero can choke in any given league.
But actually Zero didn't really choke this MSL, his ZvZ is just plainly not good enough. Maybe if he had met Kal instead of Great he could have won. Tough luck meeting Great who's best matchup is ZvZ.
Did anyone else think the huge lull in Game 2 where neither player did anything but macro/tech seem kind of bullshitty? I wouldn't be surprised if the MSL people told both players to incorporate hive play into at least one game in order to make the matches more interesting. Not sure why, but while I watched Game 2 I had the feeling I was watching something planned, like a no-rush agreement.
Not that I necessarily blame the MSL staff for pushing for hive play--ZvZ semis must be a serious damper on ratings, and hyping hive play might be the only thing that can make it appealing.
On February 11 2011 19:13 j2choe wrote: Did anyone else think the huge lull in Game 2 where neither player did anything but macro/tech seem kind of bullshitty? I wouldn't be surprised if the MSL people told both players to incorporate hive play into at least one game in order to make the matches more interesting. Not sure why, but while I watched Game 2 I had the feeling I was watching something planned, like a no-rush agreement.
Not that I necessarily blame the MSL staff for pushing for hive play--ZvZ semis must be a serious damper on ratings, and hyping hive play might be the only thing that can make it appealing.
Conspiracy theories? Really? When you've got the two most willing and capable Hive tech players in a BO5 series who have frequently gone to Hive without any "need" for it and claimed they wanted to go Hive in every interview before the match?
Long ZvZs just play out differently from other matchups where there's a lot of dull moments in the beginning and everything explodes at the end. In long ZvZ there's a lot of action in the beginning, dull moments in the middle and chaotic überaction at the end.
Great wanted to go Hive tech, Zero obliged. One of the best Hive tech ZvZs ever ensued after about 10 minutes of buildup. Everybody was happy.
On February 11 2011 14:42 Ideas wrote: ive got to be honest. great making it to the finals is way more underwhelming than when calm/kwanro/movie made it to a final. calm destroyed the other top 2 zergs on his way to the final. kwanro had been moderately successful in individual leagues for a while before he reached the finals (several Ro8s, and i THINK he made a semifinals before that?), not to mention he also beat flash on his way to the finals (ironically he ALSO beat zero on his way to the finals lol). movie (who ALSO ALSO beat zero on way to finals rofl) had some of the best PvZ at the time and well at least his final wasnt a mirror lol.
the hardest person great had to play was kal (highest vs Z ELO of any of his opponents thus far, and by a longshot). while that was impressive i guess, that series was way more kal giving it away than great taking it, at least in my most likely biased opinion. hydra/JD is going to fucking CRUSH great :\.
man how many times has it been now that zero lost to someone he shouldnt of and then we get a totally mediocre starleague? rofl. damnit zero, WE ALL WANT YOU TO MAKE A FINAL. FUCKING DO IT ALREADY
Great played awesome ZvZ here, at least when it didn't go to hive tech. That alone shows he's changed (from being the guy that wins hive tech and is nothing special otherwise). You watch this series and go "Oh Zero choked again *yawn*" but Great did some very cool stuff in this series, and JD or Hydra better check themselves. Think about the games and not just the results.
On February 11 2011 04:02 On_Slaught wrote: Which is why JD has to win. Can't think of something more underwhemling than Hydra or Great winning (yes they are good but they don't bring any star value to BW, which obviously now has competition in SC2).
And why don't they bring any star value to BW? Because they haven't won any titles yet. Which would change if they won a title. Basically if we follow your logic there should have never been a Flash/JD/Bisu/Stork because "Bisu is just a random, he doesn't bring star value like Savior". Repeat ad infinitum right up the complete BW history tree.
PS: JD is not going to win this MSL.
This post speaks of truth. It's not like every TBLS member was TBLS from the start. Not all the star players tear shit up from the moment they enter the scene, they got to start somewhere. I'm personally confident this is going to be Great's breakout performance. Unfortunately for his fans, JD is burning out, anyone who doesn't see this is just looking at him with fanboy-colored glasses. Time for new blood, Hydra and Great to step up now.
On February 11 2011 14:42 Ideas wrote: ive got to be honest. great making it to the finals is way more underwhelming than when calm/kwanro/movie made it to a final. calm destroyed the other top 2 zergs on his way to the final. kwanro had been moderately successful in individual leagues for a while before he reached the finals (several Ro8s, and i THINK he made a semifinals before that?), not to mention he also beat flash on his way to the finals (ironically he ALSO beat zero on his way to the finals lol). movie (who ALSO ALSO beat zero on way to finals rofl) had some of the best PvZ at the time and well at least his final wasnt a mirror lol.
the hardest person great had to play was kal (highest vs Z ELO of any of his opponents thus far, and by a longshot). while that was impressive i guess, that series was way more kal giving it away than great taking it, at least in my most likely biased opinion. hydra/JD is going to fucking CRUSH great :\.
man how many times has it been now that zero lost to someone he shouldnt of and then we get a totally mediocre starleague? rofl. damnit zero, WE ALL WANT YOU TO MAKE A FINAL. FUCKING DO IT ALREADY
Yea great is like the most average of the average Zergs. It's pretty underwhelming having him as a finalist. If Hydra reaches the finals he has a shot (like...20% maybe?) considering Hydra's inexperience but if Jaedong makes the finals theres absolutely no hope.
On February 11 2011 14:42 Ideas wrote: ive got to be honest. great making it to the finals is way more underwhelming than when calm/kwanro/movie made it to a final. calm destroyed the other top 2 zergs on his way to the final. kwanro had been moderately successful in individual leagues for a while before he reached the finals (several Ro8s, and i THINK he made a semifinals before that?), not to mention he also beat flash on his way to the finals (ironically he ALSO beat zero on his way to the finals lol). movie (who ALSO ALSO beat zero on way to finals rofl) had some of the best PvZ at the time and well at least his final wasnt a mirror lol.
the hardest person great had to play was kal (highest vs Z ELO of any of his opponents thus far, and by a longshot). while that was impressive i guess, that series was way more kal giving it away than great taking it, at least in my most likely biased opinion. hydra/JD is going to fucking CRUSH great :\.
man how many times has it been now that zero lost to someone he shouldnt of and then we get a totally mediocre starleague? rofl. damnit zero, WE ALL WANT YOU TO MAKE A FINAL. FUCKING DO IT ALREADY
I tend to feel like Great is an undervalued/under appreciated player. I tend to consider him to be "low A-class," whatever exactly that means. He's definitely not a giant, but he's not really a punching bag either. We've seen him on PR before, we've seen him post solid PL stats before and we've seen him penetrate past the group stages of leagues before. He's over 50% in every match-up, lifetime.
But he's no superstar either. I expected Great to win over Zero, whose ZvZ track record is unbelievably shaky. But Great is not the better player. In ZvZ yes, but that's Great's best MU and Zero's worst. Zero would have been a much more deserving finalist.
To be honest, Great really does rank among the worst of finalists in history.
Mind was high A-class when he won MSL. He was beating some of the most solid players of that era and he was able to make it back to the Ro4 the next season, as well take down Jangbi in TvP at the heigh of Jangbi's career in WCG 08. Yarnc had S-class ZvT and was palying very, very solid ZvZ (but not solid enough to topple JvZ at its height). Movie was being haled as a diamond in the rough, one of the greatest developing talents. Kwnaro was on fire, high A-class. And Calm? Jesus, the man was butchering everyone. Just to give a figure, Calm went 68-32 (68%) in 2009 and his series against Kwanro was right at his height. Pushing S-class.
Even July at his golden mouse win was the best ZvP player in the world at that time. I'd grant you that Great is probably more solid relative to his peers than July was back then, but July had the right specialty to carve his way through Protoss season, even if his ZvT was B-class and his ZvZ was C-class (by that I mean, almost a sure loss in a PL level match). And... it was mother fucking July who had proven himself time and time again over the years. The fact that he revolutionized ZvP in the process at least lets us forgive that July was no longer a stellar player when he won his third.
Basically, Great will really need to show us something special in order to fit in.
Apologies to all for the lack of updates mid-series.
Shit happens occasionally and I was left unable to continue for a couple of hours, but Nyovne was too quick for me and I had to a eat a ban. That's on me for making the thread and breaking the rules. Not much else to be said.
On February 10 2011 22:27 Aesop wrote: I updated the results in the OP. But really, no matter how pretty your OP is, it should contain the results once the games are finished.
You guys are haters. I am a huge Kal fan and just watched Great v Kal. Great played supremely well and won because he outplayed Kal, not because Kal gave anything away.
And since Kal is a top 5 player per KeSPA, you can't say Great had an easy path, no matter how many scrubs he might have faced before getting to Kal.
On February 11 2011 14:42 Ideas wrote: ive got to be honest. great making it to the finals is way more underwhelming than when calm/kwanro/movie made it to a final. calm destroyed the other top 2 zergs on his way to the final. kwanro had been moderately successful in individual leagues for a while before he reached the finals (several Ro8s, and i THINK he made a semifinals before that?), not to mention he also beat flash on his way to the finals (ironically he ALSO beat zero on his way to the finals lol). movie (who ALSO ALSO beat zero on way to finals rofl) had some of the best PvZ at the time and well at least his final wasnt a mirror lol.
the hardest person great had to play was kal (highest vs Z ELO of any of his opponents thus far, and by a longshot). while that was impressive i guess, that series was way more kal giving it away than great taking it, at least in my most likely biased opinion. hydra/JD is going to fucking CRUSH great :\.
man how many times has it been now that zero lost to someone he shouldnt of and then we get a totally mediocre starleague? rofl. damnit zero, WE ALL WANT YOU TO MAKE A FINAL. FUCKING DO IT ALREADY
What? Great's been just as successful if not more so in indiv. leagues as fking Kwanro. I hate when people QQ that a player didn't deserve to get to the finals. He won so he deserves to be there. And Great didn't get to the finals by playing a whole bunch of cheesy all-ins or one-trick play. He played all different ranges of games and more than deserved to get there. He beat Zero and Kal, two very good players. And Zero/Kal eliminated some fantastic players to get there, so your argument really makes no sense.
On February 11 2011 14:42 Ideas wrote: ive got to be honest. great making it to the finals is way more underwhelming than when calm/kwanro/movie made it to a final. calm destroyed the other top 2 zergs on his way to the final. kwanro had been moderately successful in individual leagues for a while before he reached the finals (several Ro8s, and i THINK he made a semifinals before that?), not to mention he also beat flash on his way to the finals (ironically he ALSO beat zero on his way to the finals lol). movie (who ALSO ALSO beat zero on way to finals rofl) had some of the best PvZ at the time and well at least his final wasnt a mirror lol.
the hardest person great had to play was kal (highest vs Z ELO of any of his opponents thus far, and by a longshot). while that was impressive i guess, that series was way more kal giving it away than great taking it, at least in my most likely biased opinion. hydra/JD is going to fucking CRUSH great :\.
man how many times has it been now that zero lost to someone he shouldnt of and then we get a totally mediocre starleague? rofl. damnit zero, WE ALL WANT YOU TO MAKE A FINAL. FUCKING DO IT ALREADY
What? Great's been just as successful if not more so in indiv. leagues as fking Kwanro. I hate when people QQ that a player didn't deserve to get to the finals. He won so he deserves to be there. And Great didn't get to the finals by playing a whole bunch of cheesy all-ins or one-trick play. He played all different ranges of games and more than deserved to get there. He beat Zero and Kal, two very good players. And Zero/Kal eliminated some fantastic players to get there, so your argument really makes no sense.
great made the Ro8 in the Hana Deatoo MSL. before that he never passed the Ro32 in a league. kwanro made the Ro8 in GOMTV S3 MSL, Ro16 of bacchus 2009 OSL, Ro16 of lost saga MSL, and semifinals of NATE MSL (although this was after avalon MSL) besides reaching the finals of avalon. kwanro has a much better track record than great in individual leagues, even though he has slumped really bad since 2009 (on the other hand, great was always bad until this year).
Im just saying, zero has way more credentials and it sucks that once again he met someone with better ZvZ and lost too early in an individual league.
besides beating kal, great got really lucky with his path to the finals (, soulkey in a zvz, leta with a horrible cheese, zero in a zvz, action in a zvz). but im willing to forgive him if he doesnt embarrass himself in the finals.
On February 11 2011 14:42 Ideas wrote: ive got to be honest. great making it to the finals is way more underwhelming than when calm/kwanro/movie made it to a final. calm destroyed the other top 2 zergs on his way to the final. kwanro had been moderately successful in individual leagues for a while before he reached the finals (several Ro8s, and i THINK he made a semifinals before that?), not to mention he also beat flash on his way to the finals (ironically he ALSO beat zero on his way to the finals lol). movie (who ALSO ALSO beat zero on way to finals rofl) had some of the best PvZ at the time and well at least his final wasnt a mirror lol.
the hardest person great had to play was kal (highest vs Z ELO of any of his opponents thus far, and by a longshot). while that was impressive i guess, that series was way more kal giving it away than great taking it, at least in my most likely biased opinion. hydra/JD is going to fucking CRUSH great :\.
man how many times has it been now that zero lost to someone he shouldnt of and then we get a totally mediocre starleague? rofl. damnit zero, WE ALL WANT YOU TO MAKE A FINAL. FUCKING DO IT ALREADY
What? Great's been just as successful if not more so in indiv. leagues as fking Kwanro. I hate when people QQ that a player didn't deserve to get to the finals. He won so he deserves to be there. And Great didn't get to the finals by playing a whole bunch of cheesy all-ins or one-trick play. He played all different ranges of games and more than deserved to get there. He beat Zero and Kal, two very good players. And Zero/Kal eliminated some fantastic players to get there, so your argument really makes no sense.
Just wondering, what's your opinion on that one MSL match between Nada and Jangbi when Jangbi won 3:2 (I believe?) with plenty of cheese?