everyone is talking about how bad boxer was in 8 rax cheese rushing yellow three times in a row and how bad yellow was in not adjusting his build to block it. but i see things a little differently-- i think they both showed something great in these series.
boxer's rushes weren't designed to win the games outright, although they did end up doing just that in 2 out of the 3 games. they were designed to gain an advantage for the remainder-- i.e. exactly what happened in game 1. it's a testament to the respect boxer has for yellow in doing things like this against him (i.e. his cheese rush on bladestorm). also, these cheese rushes weren't just normal cheese rushes-- they were really designed and refined to take advantage of that very small window of opportunity that ANY (even 9-hatch) double hatch build affords. boxer is a real winner, a true pro, and i'm guessing that more terrans will be cheese rushing after seeing this series-- boxer doesn't fuck around, he changes the way people think about sc.
i also have newfound respect for yellow as well because he continually hatched his natural despite knowing how boxer would come out in games 2 and 3. while this might seem utterly stupid, yellow is not an utterly stupid gamer. i really think it was because he refused to let boxer win the mental game-within-the-game to determine the pace of play. he had the confidence that he could stop the cheese rushes by going 9-hatch and/or with drone micro-- and in a sense i feel like he was daring boxer to cheese rush him over and over, feeling like if he could stop it, he would win. it was like one long extended game of mental chicken, and in this round boxer won. there's something admirable about not giving in, however-- less confident or determined souls would have clearly just become defensive after game 1, and certainly after game 2.
i know i won't forget this series, despite the fact we didn't see "incredible" micro or a close back and forth series of games. there are plenty of those to go around, especially the other games bewteen boxer and yellow, and there will be plenty more of those in the future. but i highly doubt we'll ever see a series like this again.
of course this is just my opinion, but feel free to flame and otherwise twist my logic around ^^;;
On November 12 2004 10:12 uhjoo wrote: warning: *spoiler alert*~~
everyone is talking about how bad boxer was in 8 rax cheese rushing yellow three times in a row and how bad yellow was in not adjusting his build to block it. but i see things a little differently-- i think they both showed something great in these series.
boxer's rushes weren't designed to win the games outright, although they did end up doing just that in 2 out of the 3 games. they were designed to gain an advantage for the remainder-- i.e. exactly what happened in game 1. it's a testament to the respect boxer has for yellow in doing things like this against him (i.e. his cheese rush on bladestorm). also, these cheese rushes weren't just normal cheese rushes-- they were really designed and refined to take advantage of that very small window of opportunity that ANY (even 9-hatch) double hatch build affords. boxer is a real winner, a true pro, and i'm guessing that more terrans will be cheese rushing after seeing this series-- boxer doesn't fuck around, he changes the way people think about sc.
i also have newfound respect for yellow as well because he continually hatched his natural despite knowing how boxer would come out in games 2 and 3. while this might seem utterly stupid, yellow is not an utterly stupid gamer. i really think it was because he refused to let boxer win the mental game-within-the-game to determine the pace of play. he had the confidence that he could stop the cheese rushes by going 9-hatch and/or with drone micro-- and in a sense i feel like he was daring boxer to cheese rush him over and over, feeling like if he could stop it, he would win. it was like one long extended game of mental chicken, and in this round boxer won. there's something admirable about not giving in, however-- less confident or determined souls would have clearly just become defensive after game 1, and certainly after game 2.
i know i won't forget this series, despite the fact we didn't see "incredible" micro or a close back and forth series of games. there are plenty of those to go around, especially the other games bewteen boxer and yellow, and there will be plenty more of those in the future. but i highly doubt we'll ever see a series like this again.
of course this is just my opinion, but feel free to flame and otherwise twist my logic around ^^;;
boxer does alter the way people think about sc... i am sure we will see other pros taking on this rush strategy, and eventually battle.net. as a zerg player i cant help but feel a little unsettled by it because that early expansion is the only thing that keeps a zerg alive in zvt... i'm sure that players will find a way to adapt, however, like they always have.
On November 12 2004 10:12 uhjoo wrote: i also have newfound respect for yellow as well because he continually hatched his natural despite knowing how boxer would come out in games 2 and 3. while this might seem utterly stupid, yellow is not an utterly stupid gamer. i really think it was because he refused to let boxer win the mental game-within-the-game to determine the pace of play. he had the confidence that he could stop the cheese rushes by going 9-hatch and/or with drone micro-- and in a sense i feel like he was daring boxer to cheese rush him over and over, feeling like if he could stop it, he would win. it was like one long extended game of mental chicken, and in this round boxer won. there's something admirable about not giving in, however-- less confident or determined souls would have clearly just become defensive after game 1, and certainly after game 2.
yes, perfectly explained. yellow was looking to win the whole series, not just the particular game he was currently playing. a solid non-pool win for yellow would psychologically help him later in the series.
May be after this match, zerg 12 hatch won't be considered as safe anymore and we'll see more 8rax than before. Boxer has the power to "shape" the SC standard, he did it many times in the past and may be right now he just does.
BOXER = GOD
Other side of the story:
Boxer laid down on his bed, thinking "oh shit, i'll be playing yellow next several days and i didn't do shit". Then Boxer began to think of all the possible alternative strategies he could go against yellow "damn, there's no way I can beat this guy, the only way is to cheese him. Hmm the comp can do 8 rax, hey, i can do it better than the comp, let's perfect this strat"
yes boxer strat was great but the only real problem most of us have is that this is another YELLOW VS BOXER classic and wanted another long game with lurkers getting owned by marines. tanks getting flanked my lings. ultras getting smashed by d matrixed tanks.
they wanted a legendary game but all they got was scv bunker rush
On November 12 2004 10:27 ahk-gosu wrote: yes boxer strat was great but the only real problem most of us have is that this is another YELLOW VS BOXER classic and wanted another long game with lurkers getting owned by marines. tanks getting flanked my lings. ultras getting smashed by d matrixed tanks.
they wanted a legendary game but all they got was scv bunker rush
put differently, people wanted more coke but all of a sudden they got wine.
imo, wine tastes good if you know what to look for.
ZvT build orders are often rock-paper-scissors, because you often have to make decisions before you have vital information about your opponent.
The chances of Boxer doing Barracks before Depot were the same in game1 as in game2 and game3. There was no indication that he would do the same strat again, in fact it's rather rare to do something twice in a row. Therefore he took the exact same risk in each game. He could've went Pool first in game3, only because of the fact that, if he were to lose 3 games in a row the same way it would've been (is) humiliating, but it was his choice. We Zergs often gamble a lot.
I'm so sick and tired of hearing overly in-depth analysises of the build orders and decision-making of progamers, when in reality it's actually really simple - YellOw was a bit unlucky, took the risk and was punished for it.
zergs take huge risks getting expansions with their first hatchery. a really fast protoss can take down a expo with zlot rush pretty easily a bunker rush can take it out also but we often dont use this type of cheese.
For the love of god please think before you post something or at least have some knowledge about it.
1 base terran vs 1 base zerg isnt that hard for the terran to play against especially at a high level with the micro and macro that they have. Games would be sort of similar to korhal, where xellos just dismantled day :O
What do you mean they weren't designed to win the game outright? Zerg loses an expansion hatch like that and it's pretty much over. What happend in game 1 was boxer showing some mercy and not finishing him..he could have easily. I don't know how cheesing him every game shows respect, how did you come to that conclusion? They weren't refined and special, it was a basic marine/scv cheese rush, and I doubt we'll see a bunch of pro gamers doing this, because it's gay and provides no entertainment value.. I don't think yellow "wasn't letting boxer win the mental game" he just didn't think boxer would cheese him every single game.. I don't blame yellow for doing it, because usually no one is going to be gay enough to cheese every game, especially a pro gamer..
On November 12 2004 10:48 Sadist wrote: Games would be sort of similar to korhal, where xellos just dismantled day :O
I loved that game, it's also promoted by that wcg music video.
On November 12 2004 10:54 hasuwar wrote: Beat me to what I was going to post
What do you mean they weren't designed to win the game outright? Zerg loses an expansion hatch like that and it's pretty much over. What happend in game 1 was boxer showing some mercy and not finishing him..he could have easily. I don't know how cheesing him every game shows respect, how did you come to that conclusion? They weren't refined and special, it was a basic marine/scv cheese rush, and I doubt we'll see a bunch of pro gamers doing this, because it's gay and provides no entertainment value.. I don't think yellow "wasn't letting boxer win the mental game" he just didn't think boxer would cheese him every single game.. I don't blame yellow for doing it, because usually no one is going to be gay enough to cheese every game, especially a pro gamer..
I definantly lost some respect for Boxer
Dude boxer himself said in the interview that he work on that build very hard, and partice alot with the help of many people, including beating julyzerg 5 straight. and surely julyzerg knows boxer is ganna do the same shit all those 5 games in partice game, and july still lost. which means the build boxer came up with is well refined and like boxer said in his interview, he's confident on low unit count micro games. he playing toward his strength of his game play by forcing yellow to micro war with him early. you mention the word "cheese" alot, I assume that what you meant by "cheese" is when a strategy is a do or die, and more often it will fail than succese by catching your foe off gaurd. But Boxer's strategy succesed more often than it failed. in fact it appearently didn't fail once even without the "catching your foe off gaurd" part of it when he's particing vs julyzerg.
so what you said about boxer's build is not refined and special and it's just a "basic cheese"(you meaning every noob can do the same like boxer did) is completely false.
You are owned in logic, since boxer's build is not a do or die build, he only "do" but never did he "die" once. so you can't call his bulid a cheese. it's a strong strategy with low failing rate due to his superior micro ability is none parallel by anyone.
as for your comment on yellow don't think boxer will use that same strategy every game, and just got kill every single time. No yellow do know what boxer is doing, yellow know that if he survive boxer's "do or die" strategy he will give boxer the "die" part of boxer's own strategy. yellow's counting on it, but he failed to realize he played right intot he strength of boxer's game which is low unit count micro intensive game. It wasn't a "mental war" , it wasn't "yellow don't expect it" it was yellow try to beat boxer in his own game but failed. and you have to respect yellow for his effort. Althought i think for yellow's part he is little foolhardy to challenge boxer in micro war.
I agree and re-affirm the endorsement for sirlin's anti-scrub articles.
I'm definatly looking forward to downloading these vods, even after hearing the live report. To me a bunker rush is no less exciting or skill than a drawn out macro/harrassment war.
Yeah I think that now. We, zerg players, will enter a new era of noob terrans trying to rush us like boxer. So let's respond to this by our 4-7-9 pool or 9-10hatch and show them the power of the swarm by winning tons of games VS those newbs!!!
Build a barracks on 8, make two marines, and attack with 6 scvs..what the hell do you have to practice in this strategy? Stay out of a line to a resource so he can't hit attack?
Yes, any newb can beat 9 drones with 6 scvs, two marines, and an upcoming bunker if you ask me
It's not strong because of his super leet micro (not to say that he doesn't have it), it's strong because the zerg got caught with his pants down every time and had to fight with drones only..
Yes, I'm sure yellow knew boxer was going to do this everytime, and that his secret plan was to try to beat back 6 scvs, a bunker, and marines with drones only to win..are you that fuckin' stupid?
I'd be pretty pissed off if I was yellow..they always seem so friendly in the pictures and shit..for him to cheese him every game and not try to play one straight game with him was pretty fuckin sad
boxer owned yellow 3-0 wich is quite fantastic. I`m a boxer fan all the way, but seeing how yellow has been owning up in kt-ktf as well I was kinda worried, but he dismantled him damn fast. And then people only complain, makes me sad. Of course I would have loved another classic back and forth match, but Boxer won, he used a good build and beat yellow 3-0 it wasn`t a fucking gamble by him. It was a refined build that was supposed to stop yellow from macroing too hard. And it worked like a charm. Boxer is my hero even more after this semi fianl :D
On November 12 2004 12:11 hasuwar wrote: Is there something in the air today?
Build a barracks on 8, make two marines, and attack with 6 scvs..what the hell do you have to practice in this strategy? Stay out of a line to a resource so he can't hit attack?
Yes, any newb can beat 9 drones with 6 scvs, two marines, and an upcoming bunker if you ask me
It's not strong because of his super leet micro (not to say that he doesn't have it), it's strong because the zerg got caught with his pants down every time and had to fight with drones only..
Yes, I'm sure yellow knew boxer was going to do this everytime, and that his secret plan was to try to beat back 6 scvs, a bunker, and marines with drones only to win..are you that fuckin' stupid?
I'd be pretty pissed off if I was yellow..they always seem so friendly in the pictures and shit..for him to cheese him every game and not try to play one straight game with him was pretty fuckin sad
You are a fucking retard. You obviously don't understand the interview with Boxer, you obviously don't understand Korean culture, and you for damn sure don't understand this game. Quit it please.
This game is not so imbalanced in TvZ that the Zerg [ a PROGAMER ] zerg cannot stop a certain type of rush. This strat that Boxer invented is comparable to July's recent raping of the last starleague. No one knew how to stop his aggressive type of play, so boxer invented a even MORE aggressive style that beat July 5-0. So please stfu dude, you know absolutely nothing.
people might say I won too easily but they don't know how much effort was put into coming up with this strat. I worked all night for many days to find the exact timing where the zerg can't block the bunker rush even though he knows about it. Really, I prepared more than the past finals I have been in. I was extremely stressed. I was thinking of doing a different strat if my early marine/scv strat didn't work.
I think I know more about Yellow than anyone else. So during practice I thought to myself "this won't work against Yellow" or "Yellow will overcome this easily". So during practice I asked my partners to do specific strats. Mumyung helped out the most and so did Zerglee and many other semi-pros at my team. Also July from POS helped out a lot. With the scv/marine/bunker strat, I beat July 5 times in a row.
He worked all night for many days to come up with 8 barrack 6 scv attack? I wish just once he would have shown that special secondary strat..because that must have been where his many hard working hours went. It's so refined, but it's the exact same strat on every map at the same time..what the hell is refined about that? That's also pretty gay to say he beat July 5 times in a row with that..it's so fuckin unprofessional
man i've never had someone so blatantly slap me in the face after i try to make peace with them. so hasuwar, you asked that i don't "ever PM you again" after i send you a nice polite PM. why you wouldn't want to keep it private instead of public i really don't understand, but it's your wish so i'll just post right here. if you indeed weren't referring to me as a clown and a "fuckin' idiot," but were referring to rei, does that make it any better? his post really doesn't seem inflammatory to me at all, but you definitely stepped it up. it annoyed me enough thinking your asshole comments were aimed at me, but it's even more annoying that you think i should be cool with it just because you weren't talking to me.
anyway, i'm just saying keep it civil man. we're not talking about your family here bro we're talking about sc. neither you nor i have to be fucking right on every point, but if you come at people saying they're idiots, you should expect and take every negative response with a smile. if what you wanted was just to flame and bitch people out online, instead of a reasoned discussion, i'd politely ask that you take it elsewhere.
Poor Yellow. But, a loss is a loss and a win is a win. Boxer beat July 5 times in a row with that? Well, I'd like to see these two duke it out in a match that means something before I'll pass judgement.
I want to throw out one question though. What about Silent_Control?
"He worked all night for many days to come up with 8 barrack 6 scv attack?"
And he made it work. Consider this: Gundam beats many top protosses with a simple-looking 2 SCV 4 Marine 1 Tank 1 Vulture rush strategy. Do you see any other terrans consistently owning good protoss with this strategy? Gundam has worked extensively, even harder than boxer, to make his gundam rush get to the opponent a few seconds earlier with each improvement. Boxer has done the same to the 8rax bunker rush strategy. It looks easy to do on paper, but Boxer refined the strategy so that his SCVs and marine attack earlier than any other terran can.
On November 12 2004 12:11 hasuwar wrote: Is there something in the air today?
Build a barracks on 8, make two marines, and attack with 6 scvs..what the hell do you have to practice in this strategy? Stay out of a line to a resource so he can't hit attack?
Yes, any newb can beat 9 drones with 6 scvs, two marines, and an upcoming bunker if you ask me
It's not strong because of his super leet micro (not to say that he doesn't have it), it's strong because the zerg got caught with his pants down every time and had to fight with drones only..
Yes, I'm sure yellow knew boxer was going to do this everytime, and that his secret plan was to try to beat back 6 scvs, a bunker, and marines with drones only to win..are you that fuckin' stupid?
I'd be pretty pissed off if I was yellow..they always seem so friendly in the pictures and shit..for him to cheese him every game and not try to play one straight game with him was pretty fuckin sad
So stop fu.. (i'm trying to keep it civil) around here go to ONG and beat all zerg with this strats if "any newb can beat 9 drones with 6 scvs" ( I believe you are at least a newb right?). Yellow got owned 3-0 and July 5-0!!! Great you can do it too right? owning Yellow and July Congrats
On November 12 2004 13:06 iamke55 wrote: "He worked all night for many days to come up with 8 barrack 6 scv attack?"
And he made it work. Consider this: Gundam beats many top protosses with a simple-looking 2 SCV 4 Marine 1 Tank 1 Vulture rush strategy. Do you see any other terrans consistently owning good protoss with this strategy? Gundam has worked extensively, even harder than boxer, to make his gundam rush get to the opponent a few seconds earlier with each improvement. Boxer has done the same to the 8rax bunker rush strategy. It looks easy to do on paper, but Boxer refined the strategy so that his SCVs and marine attack earlier than any other terran can.
it would be great to have the actual reps of these matches, to see what subtle differences and adjustments there are to boxer's bunker/cheese rushes-- i.e. how does map (so distance to z base), scouting timing, number of scv's rushing and number remaining, etc. affect the timing that the cheese rush goes in. it looked slightly different in each of the games, and also each of the games had yellow doing different hatchery timing (it seemed like in game 1 he 12 hatched, game 2 he 9 hatched, and game 3 he 10 hatched, but i can't be sure). even 1 second later could mean the difference between success or failure, so this subtlety might get lost just watching the VODs.
On November 12 2004 13:06 iamke55 wrote: "He worked all night for many days to come up with 8 barrack 6 scv attack?"
And he made it work. Consider this: Gundam beats many top protosses with a simple-looking 2 SCV 4 Marine 1 Tank 1 Vulture rush strategy. Do you see any other terrans consistently owning good protoss with this strategy? Gundam has worked extensively, even harder than boxer, to make his gundam rush get to the opponent a few seconds earlier with each improvement. Boxer has done the same to the 8rax bunker rush strategy. It looks easy to do on paper, but Boxer refined the strategy so that his SCVs and marine attack earlier than any other terran can.
it would be great to have the actual reps of these matches, to see what subtle differences and adjustments there are to boxer's bunker/cheese rushes-- i.e. how does map (so distance to z base), scouting timing, number of scv's rushing and number remaining, etc. affect the timing that the cheese rush goes in. it looked slightly different in each of the games, and also each of the games had yellow doing different hatchery timing (it seemed like in game 1 he 12 hatched, game 2 he 9 hatched, and game 3 he 10 hatched, but i can't be sure). even 1 second later could mean the difference between success or failure, so this subtlety might get lost just watching the VODs.
<3 I had that thought at least 2029375029375029397508254 times this evening, I'd like to analyze it, like you can analyze Gundam...
On November 12 2004 10:54 hasuwar wrote: Beat me to what I was going to post
What do you mean they weren't designed to win the game outright? Zerg loses an expansion hatch like that and it's pretty much over. What happend in game 1 was boxer showing some mercy and not finishing him..he could have easily. I don't know how cheesing him every game shows respect, how did you come to that conclusion? They weren't refined and special, it was a basic marine/scv cheese rush, and I doubt we'll see a bunch of pro gamers doing this, because it's gay and provides no entertainment value.. I don't think yellow "wasn't letting boxer win the mental game" he just didn't think boxer would cheese him every single game.. I don't blame yellow for doing it, because usually no one is going to be gay enough to cheese every game, especially a pro gamer..
I definantly lost some respect for Boxer
Dude boxer himself said in the interview that he work on that build very hard, and partice alot with the help of many people, including beating julyzerg 5 straight. and surely julyzerg knows boxer is ganna do the same shit all those 5 games in partice game, and july still lost. which means the build boxer came up with is well refined and like boxer said in his interview, he's confident on low unit count micro games. he playing toward his strength of his game play by forcing yellow to micro war with him early. you mention the word "cheese" alot, I assume that what you meant by "cheese" is when a strategy is a do or die, and more often it will fail than succese by catching your foe off gaurd. But Boxer's strategy succesed more often than it failed. in fact it appearently didn't fail once even without the "catching your foe off gaurd" part of it when he's particing vs julyzerg.
so what you said about boxer's build is not refined and special and it's just a "basic cheese"(you meaning every noob can do the same like boxer did) is completely false.
You are owned in logic, since boxer's build is not a do or die build, he only "do" but never did he "die" once. so you can't call his bulid a cheese. it's a strong strategy with low failing rate due to his superior micro ability is none parallel by anyone.
as for your comment on yellow don't think boxer will use that same strategy every game, and just got kill every single time. No yellow do know what boxer is doing, yellow know that if he survive boxer's "do or die" strategy he will give boxer the "die" part of boxer's own strategy. yellow's counting on it, but he failed to realize he played right intot he strength of boxer's game which is low unit count micro intensive game. It wasn't a "mental war" , it wasn't "yellow don't expect it" it was yellow try to beat boxer in his own game but failed. and you have to respect yellow for his effort. Althought i think for yellow's part he is little foolhardy to challenge boxer in micro war.
On November 12 2004 12:11 hasuwar wrote: Is there something in the air today?
Build a barracks on 8, make two marines, and attack with 6 scvs..what the hell do you have to practice in this strategy? Stay out of a line to a resource so he can\'t hit attack?
Yes, any newb can beat 9 drones with 6 scvs, two marines, and an upcoming bunker if you ask me
It\'s not strong because of his super leet micro (not to say that he doesn\'t have it), it\'s strong because the zerg got caught with his pants down every time and had to fight with drones only..
Yes, I\'m sure yellow knew boxer was going to do this everytime, and that his secret plan was to try to beat back 6 scvs, a bunker, and marines with drones only to win..are you that fuckin\' stupid?
I\'d be pretty pissed off if I was yellow..they always seem so friendly in the pictures and shit..for him to cheese him every game and not try to play one straight game with him was pretty fuckin sad
You really upsad? i grade i\'d pissed you off, cause it\'s hard to achieve just by one post, i feel joy in pissing you off boy. your counters to my points are : (1)why would yellow choose to fight boxer with drones only instead of making lings fast and not expanding. (2) i\'m fucking stupid.
I can understand why you don\'t get why yellow did what he done, your understanding of the game is not yet at that level. here let me enlight you, since none of the other gosus in this forum is going to waste time to help you understand.
you first point why yellow choose to fight boxer with drones and expanding while knowing boxer is using the same strategy every game. here is why. first you need to understand boxer\'s mind set, which you ignored even when people tell you to read boxer\'s interview. boxer want micro intensive low unit count games. thi is what i think what\'s ganna happen when yellow choose to go off one base with lings to stop the rush. first boxer will realize oh nooo lings!!! that\'s many lings yes? so that\'s one base with many lings and not many drones. i just move my scv back to mine and get firebat and medics fast with very few scvs mining.and then yellow recon boxer\'s shit and goes like, crap he\'s powering up units i better make more lings and delay my tec so i dont\' get rape easly. so both got low economy and both of them is going to micro their ass off with the units they have. but now boxer has firebats medics and marines, while yellow got lings and mroe lings. so they go micro war just as boxer expected, but now boxer got even more advantage cause he has better units to micro with. so it ends up with the same goal boxer wanted to achieve, which is low unit count, micro war.
that is the best possible sanario i can think off that\'s to yellow\'s advantage.
but in the interview boxer mention he beat julyzerg 5 game straight with same build, now julyzerg is known to play very aggrassive early. that means he use 9 pools almost every game.
now yellow has to make his pool even earlier? to have a chance to not follow julyzerg\'s footsteps yes?
and you said any noobs can kill 9 drones+sunken comming with 6 scvs and 2 marines+bunker comming? you want to micro those 6scvs and 2marines vs any of the big name gosues in this forum and try your luck? see if it\'s as easy as you say?
as for your second counter, which is a personal insult of me being stupid. my intellegence has nothing to do with the fact. my post is back up by boxer himself on hi interview. i said the boxer\'s strategy isn\'t a cheese and he worked hard on, which is according to boxer himself. and you deny that by calling me stupid and give no other reason.
oh wait, i was wrong, you didn\'t insult me of being stupid, you said fucking stupid. now the word fucking is a complement to the word stupid, so it seems that it enhance the word stupid by relating to the action fuck. let\'s say that fuck is enjoyable yes? hard to imagine if you would say otherwise, but you just might do it just to disagree with me. now since fucking is enjoyable, then you are saying i\'m enjoying my stupidity?
now let\'s look at the meaning of stupidity, it means extreme dullness of perception or understanding.
now let\'s look at what we said so far. rei: boxer\'s strategy is refined and proved to work. and back up by boxer himself. you: boxer\'s fucking chees gay gay gay. i don\'t care what boxer said in his interview. i don\'t need to *understand anything cause i\'m *enjoying bashing boxer
opps? is that you being extreme dullness of understanding and enjoying it?
I DO THINK SO!!!
see here is a well constructed insult that goes around with out ever directly insult the person, this would piss off some guy so much better than just typing constant f words etc.
Are there ANY new reps of Boxer? Because if there aren't and we'll never see his new rush, I don't think we can ever fully appreciate, what's different and what makes this build special. I'm really interested in this...
No, I think it can be analyzed by the people who are in Korea. They will be able to see the matches in clear T.V. Quality. I'm sure some fanatic will figure it out by watching them over and over very carefully.
my post is on topic, i counter 2 of his points with my logic. and first piont is relerrent to this topic but the second point i counter is a must, just for the entertainment of teamliquid users. I hope you all enjoy it ^^
and yes it is very hard to kill 9 drones and building sunken with a bunker 2 marines and a few scvs.
yellow is really good at blocking bunker rushes. he kills marines before they get to the bunk because drones are a lot faster and he uses the worker slide bug. he also kills workers before they finish the bunker. boxer just played better. although it did not entertain me as much as the other boxer vs yellow games but it does give you a new perspective on the game and show you that the standard build is not always the best. early hatchery gives the zerg a huge advantage but if something unexpected comes out of the other player's ass, he may pay for it. nal ra did some early gateway rushes vs some zergs and they did pay for it with many drones.
try it yourself many strategies have been formulated by exploting the unexpected weaknesses of "build orders" and things that are set up.
let me name some.
probe following the drone that goes to make the second hatchery. pylon blocking dragoons. proxy builds. 4 probe rush vs terran. bunker rush zergling rush zealot walls drops invisible units fast drops. running units past static defense ie running past cannons with lings. air units. sunken rush. gas stealing
just to name a few so try it out. strange strats can really help. ive make scouts instead of sairs before. and it works great. even mutas get owned. not as fast as sairs but scouts can last a long time and their upgrade for speed can make them take down ovies a lot faster because they have HUGE explosive damage.
when i contained a protoss with 2 lurkers, i knew he would break out eventually so i make a hatchery at bottom of his ramp and put a 5 sunkens and 1 spore there.
so try something out and post if you get any good ideas. gl everyone.
with boxer beating yellow 3 games in a row, I suppose the build order would have to be pretty good. Why would yellow lose against "a build any noob knows" as hasuwar puts i. As drone has said if yellow had played safe boxer wouldn`t have rushed and just got into later game. Boxer countered yellows fast expand. Why whine on boxer for beating him hands down, it wasn`t cheese!
On November 12 2004 13:50 Ack1027 wrote: No, I think it can be analyzed by the people who are in Korea. They will be able to see the matches in clear T.V. Quality. I'm sure some fanatic will figure it out by watching them over and over very carefully.
Hm, I don't know, it might be, but it's still 3rd person point of view, so they won't be able to see, when exactly he cuts scv production, etc...
On November 12 2004 12:31 Sadist wrote: some of you act like 8 rax is something new, alot of the koreans used it in wsl :o and alot of non koreans too ;d
I thought it's the standard build on wgtour? -_- Like there was only Ogogo who managed to stop it (only once ).
On November 12 2004 14:10 Honk2000 wrote: what if silent_control gamed like that vs yellow? would everybody also call him a strategic genius?
If he can pull it 3 times on the row yeap I would. But I dont believe silent_control is ever able to do that against a guy like Yellow and I willing to bet $10 that you wounld not either.
I don't understand why everyone is so pissed at boxer. Personally I'm pissed at Yellow!
Boxer played to win, and did so masterfully. Yellow got bitch slapped 3 times in a row by the same strategy, not because "Boxer is a Pansey" but because his play was so pathetically inept. End of story.
Don't be mad at Boxer, be mad at Yellow for being stubborn and failing to addapt to his opponent. It isn't as if this bunker rush was a perfect and unbeatable strat, cuz if it was you'de see every Terran do it in every game.
Yellow took it in the bum, blame him. This is simply another testament to Boxer's career long out-classing of Yellow in any significant games they play.
On November 12 2004 11:59 yomi wrote: I agree and re-affirm the endorsement for sirlin's anti-scrub articles.
I'm definatly looking forward to downloading these vods, even after hearing the live report. To me a bunker rush is no less exciting or skill than a drawn out macro/harrassment war.
On November 12 2004 14:10 Honk2000 wrote: what if silent_control gamed like that vs yellow? would everybody also call him a strategic genius?
while this is a good point, there's two things i'd say:
1) boxer no longer has to prove through his play that he's a strategic genius-- he is THE strategic genius of sc and his revisiting of an old and "cheesy" strat to win a series of games as important as this semi is, imo, slightly genius.
2) if silent_control could win nearly as much as boxer has and has a variety of strats as boxer has and have just one of the MANY bullets in his gun be a very strong bunker rush, then i'd say he would get much more props than he does now :-)
The emperor is reaching for his throne once again. It really seemed he wanted to win this series badly, and simply did whatever he had to. The thing that won this wasnt like many say a simple cheese scv-rines strat. His mental strength won them-_- GG's
After reading all this, it looks to me like boxer fans are a making that look a lot more than it actually was, I don't doubt for a second boxer trained that build over and over again, still bunker rushing every game in a semi final (and possibly in one of the most important series in bw history) still seems kind of....wrong (ethically speaking) to me.
On November 12 2004 10:12 uhjoo wrote: warning: *spoiler alert*~~
everyone is talking about how bad boxer was in 8 rax cheese rushing yellow three times in a row and how bad yellow was in not adjusting his build to block it. but i see things a little differently-- i think they both showed something great in these series.
boxer's rushes weren't designed to win the games outright, although they did end up doing just that in 2 out of the 3 games. they were designed to gain an advantage for the remainder-- i.e. exactly what happened in game 1. it's a testament to the respect boxer has for yellow in doing things like this against him (i.e. his cheese rush on bladestorm). also, these cheese rushes weren't just normal cheese rushes-- they were really designed and refined to take advantage of that very small window of opportunity that ANY (even 9-hatch) double hatch build affords. boxer is a real winner, a true pro, and i'm guessing that more terrans will be cheese rushing after seeing this series-- boxer doesn't fuck around, he changes the way people think about sc.
i also have newfound respect for yellow as well because he continually hatched his natural despite knowing how boxer would come out in games 2 and 3. while this might seem utterly stupid, yellow is not an utterly stupid gamer. i really think it was because he refused to let boxer win the mental game-within-the-game to determine the pace of play. he had the confidence that he could stop the cheese rushes by going 9-hatch and/or with drone micro-- and in a sense i feel like he was daring boxer to cheese rush him over and over, feeling like if he could stop it, he would win. it was like one long extended game of mental chicken, and in this round boxer won. there's something admirable about not giving in, however-- less confident or determined souls would have clearly just become defensive after game 1, and certainly after game 2.
i know i won't forget this series, despite the fact we didn't see "incredible" micro or a close back and forth series of games. there are plenty of those to go around, especially the other games bewteen boxer and yellow, and there will be plenty more of those in the future. but i highly doubt we'll ever see a series like this again.
of course this is just my opinion, but feel free to flame and otherwise twist my logic around ^^;;
i agree with you
Way to quote a huge post and say 4 words. TL could use less of these shit posts.
I haven't seen the series yet, and I think there is something interesting about the outcome. I also can't blame either player. But it does strike me as a bit boring, I probably won't bother to watch the games now that I know what happened(And I really was looking forward to the match for a good 3 weeks, if I was there live I would have probably felt really discouraged). I feel really bad for Yellow but I suppose next time maybe he will catch on a bit quicker. Also this might be one of the first big controversies for BW, perhaps people will lose interest if the game keeps up in this manner.
On November 12 2004 14:55 baal wrote: This is not the WWF people, they play to win not to entretain you....
if they didn't entertain people (generally speaking) they wouldn't have a job. Don't get me wrong, I don't intend to blame Boxer or anything, he trained to get a powerfull opening and he did it, I just would hate to see every programer from now on cheese when they have an important game just because it's so important for them to get a win.
On November 12 2004 14:55 baal wrote: This is not the WWF people, they play to win not to entretain you....
if they didn't entertain people (generally speaking) they wouldn't have a job. Don't get me wrong, I don't intend to blame Boxer or anything, he trained to get a powerfull opening and he did it, I just would hate to see every programer from now on cheese when they have an important game just because it's so important for them to get a win.
Dont worry about that not everyone can "cheese" like Boxer
On November 12 2004 14:55 baal wrote: This is not the WWF people, they play to win not to entretain you....
if they didn't entertain people (generally speaking) they wouldn't have a job. Don't get me wrong, I don't intend to blame Boxer or anything, he trained to get a powerfull opening and he did it, I just would hate to see every programer from now on cheese when they have an important game just because it's so important for them to get a win.
Dont worry about that not everyone can "cheese" like Boxer
yes,but if everyone focus they preparation on this kind of strats games will be decided really fast, cause it either works it doesn't, either way the game ends right there.
I dont think 8 rax is as good as Boxer made it seem.Its just that he practiced it like a million times ,putting incredible thought on all the smallest details ,while Yellow began thinking of the counter at the time the scv began making the bunker... Very smart of Boxer.I would think of it being a bit unfair play ,but im happy with the fact Boxer showed the world how important preparation is.
Btw, everyone saying Oov sux ,cause hes only playing for the win ,while Boxer is an art player- STFU NOW!!!
Boxer is THE entertainer of sc. While he is the father of the game he is also the most loved for his style of play and his pleasing of the crowds. He don't have to prove himself in this matter, but I am sure he will show some amazing games vs oov in the finals.
The games vs Yellow were as much a matter of showing that he still is a top level gamer (by reaching the biggest finals in progaming) as simply winning. And he did so in true style - Yellow is yet again the most feared zerg on the planet, and his comback has overshadowed even the return of the legendary emperor of sc. But Boxer showed his absolute mastery of mind games and strategic thinking to beat Yellow once again in the most one-sided series ever.
Many people expected Yellow to finally get his revenge, while forgetting the spanking Boxer showed him in the challenge league finals leading up to this osl - where they both played straight up on a map Yellow is insanely good at.
I guess what I want to say is - Long live the King!
someone please tell me what is so damn great about this build boxer used... unless all the reports missed something it sounds like it was just an 8 rax. the only thing amazing about it is that he uses it vs yellow in the ogn semis 3 straight times. yes im sure he prepared it to the minutest detail... but that is true of all bo's/strats pros use in games as big as this. it isnt like he practiced this more than he would have if he used any other build. so why are all the boxer fans making this out to be so amazing?
[B] Boxer laid down on his bed, thinking "oh shit, i'll be playing yellow next several days and i didn't do shit". Then Boxer began to think of all the possible alternative strategies he could go against yellow "damn, there's no way I can beat this guy, the only way is to cheese him. Hmm the comp can do 8 rax, hey, i can do it better than the comp, let's perfect this strat"
On November 12 2004 10:24 Elvin_vn wrote: May be after this match, zerg 12 hatch won't be considered as safe anymore and we'll see more 8rax than before.
i disagree. no one has confidence in their control to be able to do it in every tvz.
On November 12 2004 10:12 uhjoo wrote: warning: *spoiler alert*~~
everyone is talking about how bad boxer was in 8 rax cheese rushing yellow three times in a row and how bad yellow was in not adjusting his build to block it. but i see things a little differently-- i think they both showed something great in these series.
boxer's rushes weren't designed to win the games outright, although they did end up doing just that in 2 out of the 3 games. they were designed to gain an advantage for the remainder-- i.e. exactly what happened in game 1. it's a testament to the respect boxer has for yellow in doing things like this against him (i.e. his cheese rush on bladestorm). also, these cheese rushes weren't just normal cheese rushes-- they were really designed and refined to take advantage of that very small window of opportunity that ANY (even 9-hatch) double hatch build affords. boxer is a real winner, a true pro, and i'm guessing that more terrans will be cheese rushing after seeing this series-- boxer doesn't fuck around, he changes the way people think about sc.
i also have newfound respect for yellow as well because he continually hatched his natural despite knowing how boxer would come out in games 2 and 3. while this might seem utterly stupid, yellow is not an utterly stupid gamer. i really think it was because he refused to let boxer win the mental game-within-the-game to determine the pace of play. he had the confidence that he could stop the cheese rushes by going 9-hatch and/or with drone micro-- and in a sense i feel like he was daring boxer to cheese rush him over and over, feeling like if he could stop it, he would win. it was like one long extended game of mental chicken, and in this round boxer won. there's something admirable about not giving in, however-- less confident or determined souls would have clearly just become defensive after game 1, and certainly after game 2.
i know i won't forget this series, despite the fact we didn't see "incredible" micro or a close back and forth series of games. there are plenty of those to go around, especially the other games bewteen boxer and yellow, and there will be plenty more of those in the future. but i highly doubt we'll ever see a series like this again.
of course this is just my opinion, but feel free to flame and otherwise twist my logic around ^^;;
I disagree slightly with your logic. I agree that it was a mental game of chicken, but Boxer is in complete control of that game when it comes to Yellow. If, Yellow repeatedly opened with the same build to not let Boxer control the flow of the game, then Boxer completely obliterated Yellow in mental chicken. The idea of SC is to adapt to, and counter what your opponent is doing, and if Boxer prevented Yellow from doing that, well, gg thx no re Yellow.
well, we are talking about Boxer and Yellow -in some way he entertained us. To add more we talk about it much, it's not 'oh boxer won 3:1' but something special Boxer cheesed/used fantastic strat 3 times in a row. That;s what Boxer is supposed to do -become 'famous', so the advertisers are happy. Entertaining us is one of the ways of getting famous, winning is another, making us talk about it is good to to some degree (but if other people will cheese to, it will mean a failure). We can only hope that tvz wont turn into one big cheese matchup, because it's not funny to watch.
I'm beginning to see why there are so few foreign progamers. The Korean progamers think positively about situations, while you guys just tear them apart.
BoxeR won. That's all that needs to be said. You can go ahead and have a pissy fit all you want. Things arn't going to change.
In fact, I'm pretty sure I know what's going on here. Many of you have lost over and over to fast rushes. So you named them "cheese" rushes and instead of learning how to defeat them, you just degrade them and the people who use them.
So now that you saw a progamer do it, you're degrading him when really it is Yellow's problem to deal with attacks. Just as it is BoxeR's to deal with his opponents' attacks, just as it's your problem to deal with your opponents' attacks.
You guys whine and moan about gameplay strategies. Progamers find ways to defeat these strategies.
Boxer's 3-0ing Yellow today proved he is the best starcraft player of all time. I can only compare it to Muhammad Ali's strategy "go to ropes" vs George Foreman, on the 1974 World Boxing Championship: both of them knew what to do to win.
On November 12 2004 10:48 Sadist wrote: ahk, no. Its not a huge risk, its vital in zvt.
For the love of god please think before you post something or at least have some knowledge about it.
1 base terran vs 1 base zerg isnt that hard for the terran to play against especially at a high level with the micro and macro that they have. Games would be sort of similar to korhal, where xellos just dismantled day :O
Uh not saying that Korhal is a nice map for ZvT (because I know it isn't) but you could have given day the most zergish map ever (okay maybe not but you could have gone pretty far) and xellos would have dismantled him.
~_~
Btw after seeing that post my first feeling was: "I hope uhjoo gets the news poster job thing'
On November 12 2004 14:55 baal wrote: This is not the WWF people, they play to win not to entretain you....
if they didn't entertain people (generally speaking) they wouldn't have a job. Don't get me wrong, I don't intend to blame Boxer or anything, he trained to get a powerfull opening and he did it, I just would hate to see every programer from now on cheese when they have an important game just because it's so important for them to get a win.
i'll disagree with your post. it's not that they play to entertain. in those games where a player disrespects his opponent and toys with him by dragging out the game so he can do "cute" manuevers, what did you think of them? in art, there's a term for that: pretentious. colloquially, it's called "showing off."
you can look at how the game has evolved as proof of playing to win: the use of arbiter recalls in bases, dts blocking ramps, dropship load/reloads, manner pylons etc. they were invented in order to win the game but in the process of doing so thrill us.
the only really cute, entertaining for the sake of being entertaining move i can bring to mind is the "scv dance" of, you guessed it, boxer's.
were they not to play to win, the game would be like the wwf, as baal said - it would be fake. that's what's great about sc: it's real. the players want to win and are crushed when they lose - this is real, heartwrenching drama that encapsulates their hopes and goals. all hail sc, all hail boxer!
On November 12 2004 14:55 baal wrote: This is not the WWF people, they play to win not to entretain you....
if they didn't entertain people (generally speaking) they wouldn't have a job. Don't get me wrong, I don't intend to blame Boxer or anything, he trained to get a powerfull opening and he did it, I just would hate to see every programer from now on cheese when they have an important game just because it's so important for them to get a win.
i'll disagree with your post. it's not that they play to entertain. in those games where a player disrespects his opponent and toys with him by dragging out the game so he can do "cute" manuevers, what did you think of them? in art, there's a term for that: pretentious. colloquially, it's called "showing off."
you can look at how the game has evolved as proof of playing to win: the use of arbiter recalls in bases, dts blocking ramps, dropship load/reloads, manner pylons etc. they were invented in order to win the game but in the process of doing so thrill us.
the only really cute, entertaining for the sake of being entertaining move i can bring to mind is the "scv dance" of, you guessed it, boxer's.
were they not to play to win, the game would be like the wwf, as baal said - it would be fake. that's what's great about sc: it's real. the players want to win and are crushed when they lose - this is real, heartwrenching drama that encapsulates their hopes and goals. all hail sc, all hail boxer!
yes but we would like the game to develop in terms of more advanced strategies, unit mixes, not simple 4pools and bunker rushes, that's what he is trying to say for example if the spawning pool cost would be 150 and the build time decreased as in 1.00, the game would be probably nearly only zvz, with other races knocked by early rush that wouldnt be so interesting like the games where there are huge battles with tanks marines vessels etc...
hahahaha... All ur posts about Silent_control make me laugh so hard... It's soo funny when we know that this player was considered by most of ppl the most hated progamer. And then you all suddendly say that he would have more fans if he got it well. No dudes plz don't make me funny : You don't know what you're talking about. You're just into the boxer's attitude (dunno how to say it...) and there's nothing that can tell me the opposite.
Another funny thing is that i see only Terran's or protoss icon's who are supporting boxer except hasuwar. I'm agree with hasuwar : it doesn't matter how hard boxer played, a 8rax rush is a 8rax rush and it's considered as a cheese. And don't tell that was SMART.
But fine boxer won it but don't say that he was really stressed : It's not his first time of playing a game like this. For me he just said that to have more attention to his fans.
I really hope Boxer will die to oov. PLZ GOD KILL BOXER :'(
Ps : Don't say that i don't like boxer because i loved him with his new style of play but all thoses cheeses simply made me very disappointing. I also lost my respect for boxer.
i'm pretty sure that boxer will have something cute up his sleeve against oov as well.. as he said, he feels more comfortable in low unit micro games, and ovv is known as a macro monster, mark my words..
Boxer Seriously did not show any respect for Yellow. He knows that Yellow is looking to solidify his place by FINALLY winning a league and what dose he do? Dose he give him a good well fought battle of Micr/macro? No he gave him 3 games of the same Bullcrap He could at least tried to win 1 game in the regular fashion -.- I mean Damn when he was up 2-0 he could have started playing Regular the third game was for pure humiliation.
On November 12 2004 13:02 uhjoo wrote: man i've never had someone so blatantly slap me in the face after i try to make peace with them. so hasuwar, you asked that i don't "ever PM you again" after i send you a nice polite PM. why you wouldn't want to keep it private instead of public i really don't understand, but it's your wish so i'll just post right here. if you indeed weren't referring to me as a clown and a "fuckin' idiot," but were referring to rei, does that make it any better? his post really doesn't seem inflammatory to me at all, but you definitely stepped it up. it annoyed me enough thinking your asshole comments were aimed at me, but it's even more annoying that you think i should be cool with it just because you weren't talking to me.
anyway, i'm just saying keep it civil man. we're not talking about your family here bro we're talking about sc. neither you nor i have to be fucking right on every point, but if you come at people saying they're idiots, you should expect and take every negative response with a smile. if what you wanted was just to flame and bitch people out online, instead of a reasoned discussion, i'd politely ask that you take it elsewhere.
On November 12 2004 12:11 hasuwar wrote: Is there something in the air today?
Build a barracks on 8, make two marines, and attack with 6 scvs..what the hell do you have to practice in this strategy? Stay out of a line to a resource so he can\'t hit attack?
Yes, any newb can beat 9 drones with 6 scvs, two marines, and an upcoming bunker if you ask me
It\'s not strong because of his super leet micro (not to say that he doesn\'t have it), it\'s strong because the zerg got caught with his pants down every time and had to fight with drones only..
Yes, I\'m sure yellow knew boxer was going to do this everytime, and that his secret plan was to try to beat back 6 scvs, a bunker, and marines with drones only to win..are you that fuckin\' stupid?
I\'d be pretty pissed off if I was yellow..they always seem so friendly in the pictures and shit..for him to cheese him every game and not try to play one straight game with him was pretty fuckin sad
You really upsad? i grade i\'d pissed you off, cause it\'s hard to achieve just by one post, i feel joy in pissing you off boy. your counters to my points are : (1)why would yellow choose to fight boxer with drones only instead of making lings fast and not expanding. (2) i\'m fucking stupid.
I can understand why you don\'t get why yellow did what he done, your understanding of the game is not yet at that level. here let me enlight you, since none of the other gosus in this forum is going to waste time to help you understand.
you first point why yellow choose to fight boxer with drones and expanding while knowing boxer is using the same strategy every game. here is why. first you need to understand boxer\'s mind set, which you ignored even when people tell you to read boxer\'s interview. boxer want micro intensive low unit count games. thi is what i think what\'s ganna happen when yellow choose to go off one base with lings to stop the rush. first boxer will realize oh nooo lings!!! that\'s many lings yes? so that\'s one base with many lings and not many drones. i just move my scv back to mine and get firebat and medics fast with very few scvs mining.and then yellow recon boxer\'s shit and goes like, crap he\'s powering up units i better make more lings and delay my tec so i dont\' get rape easly. so both got low economy and both of them is going to micro their ass off with the units they have. but now boxer has firebats medics and marines, while yellow got lings and mroe lings. so they go micro war just as boxer expected, but now boxer got even more advantage cause he has better units to micro with. so it ends up with the same goal boxer wanted to achieve, which is low unit count, micro war.
that is the best possible sanario i can think off that\'s to yellow\'s advantage.
but in the interview boxer mention he beat julyzerg 5 game straight with same build, now julyzerg is known to play very aggrassive early. that means he use 9 pools almost every game.
now yellow has to make his pool even earlier? to have a chance to not follow julyzerg\'s footsteps yes?
and you said any noobs can kill 9 drones+sunken comming with 6 scvs and 2 marines+bunker comming? you want to micro those 6scvs and 2marines vs any of the big name gosues in this forum and try your luck? see if it\'s as easy as you say?
as for your second counter, which is a personal insult of me being stupid. my intellegence has nothing to do with the fact. my post is back up by boxer himself on hi interview. i said the boxer\'s strategy isn\'t a cheese and he worked hard on, which is according to boxer himself. and you deny that by calling me stupid and give no other reason.
oh wait, i was wrong, you didn\'t insult me of being stupid, you said fucking stupid. now the word fucking is a complement to the word stupid, so it seems that it enhance the word stupid by relating to the action fuck. let\'s say that fuck is enjoyable yes? hard to imagine if you would say otherwise, but you just might do it just to disagree with me. now since fucking is enjoyable, then you are saying i\'m enjoying my stupidity?
now let\'s look at the meaning of stupidity, it means extreme dullness of perception or understanding.
now let\'s look at what we said so far. rei: boxer\'s strategy is refined and proved to work. and back up by boxer himself. you: boxer\'s fucking chees gay gay gay. i don\'t care what boxer said in his interview. i don\'t need to *understand anything cause i\'m *enjoying bashing boxer
opps? is that you being extreme dullness of understanding and enjoying it?
I DO THINK SO!!!
see here is a well constructed insult that goes around with out ever directly insult the person, this would piss off some guy so much better than just typing constant f words etc.
THough I don't agree with his personal attacks, I agree with hasu.
It sickens me that the most fun to watch pro-gamer would pull something like this. Completely un-entertaining.
And for those of you who feel this series was entertaining, go look at the news report on it. Thats all that could be said. this was good gaming but bad manner (not to yellow, but to the veiwing adience)
Boxer won because he perfected a strat that has been along for a damn long time, against a very, very good opponent if Yellow refused to alter his build. Screw all of that talk about 'giving him a straight-up battle'. If Yellow had decided to alter his damned build to stop it, then in the ensuing mid to late game, Boxer would've given him that straight-up battle.
I highly doubt it if Boxer was thinking that it would work 3 times in a row. Maybe the first one, but not the rest. IMO, the reason why Boxer chose that build was to force Yellow into either a) going into a minor micro-war with him early on (of which he felt he could win), or b) forcing him to go according to a build order that Boxer is more comfortable facing.
On November 12 2004 16:16 soundwave wrote: Boxer's 3-0ing Yellow today proved he is the best starcraft player of all time. I can only compare it to Muhammad Ali's strategy "go to ropes" vs George Foreman, on the 1974 World Boxing Championship: both of them knew what to do to win.
As simple as that
How could this win make him soo good? He was good at one start that wasnt that spectacular. I could see if he completely out microed/macroed yellow in a 20+ min game and just dominated but this was just so disapointing :[
On November 12 2004 18:04 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: not that spectacular?
He 5-0'd july, the zerg with the best early game of any zerg ever, using that build
if boxer continues to use it, expanding will become obsolete
its brand fucking new, and its going to change how everyone plays tvz
how is that not spectacular
This start is used all the fucking time on wgtour. wtf are you talking about?
Thats exactly why I stopped playing starcraft. I was sick and tired of the cheap ass bunker rushes. And building in base makes you at a disadvantage while the terran naturally has the advantage after a bunker rush, whether it failed or not.
On November 12 2004 17:30 Slaughter)BiO wrote: Boxer Seriously did not show any respect for Yellow. He knows that Yellow is looking to solidify his place by FINALLY winning a league and what dose he do? Dose he give him a good well fought battle of Micr/macro? No he gave him 3 games of the same Bullcrap He could at least tried to win 1 game in the regular fashion -.- I mean Damn when he was up 2-0 he could have started playing Regular the third game was for pure humiliation.
Mmm, no. Why does Boxer owe Yellow anything? That's what makes competition fun, that you are trying to win no matter what (within the rules, of course) and because of this Boxer uses the same move an astonishing three times in a row and wins. He put in hard work to find the opening in the Zerg's build order and capitalize; that is the art of BW shown simply and artfully.
hasuwar just sent me a PM the title of the PM is "Idiot" the first line of his essay consists of 3 personal insults, i scrolled down, his PM is very long. I did not even read it, because base on the title and the first line i know he's just going to fame me and use the f word on half of his essay, and literally most of his essay would be direct insult toward me.
here is my reply to him: why are you keep insulting me? did i ever use one single word that seems not respectful toward you? what have i done to provoke you? first you call me fucking stupid, now you call me idiot. if you leave out these insult and have a civilized debate, people would love it, but instead you make me drop the hammer on you, and owned you in logic every aspect of your post. and people agree with me, there is nothing more to say, and no matter how much you want to disprove me in this post it's not going to work, cause after i read the title i did not continue on reading the rest of your post. I'm replying meerly trying to convince you to stop insulting people, because use logically well constructed reasoning beats insults anytime and gets much more attention than a post filled with hate. i'm trying to help you understand here. I don't know how old are you, maybe you are too young to understand what i'm saying.
so what do you guys think? hasuwar has over 3000 posts, base on that i don't think he desert a ban, but if he keeps insulting anyone that dissagree with him, it's a hard taste for the admins not to do the unthinkable and ban this very active member of our community.
I have to agree with HasuWars stance on the boxer/yellow game issue but he IS taking it a bit to far. -.- Oh and A3iL3r0n its called "Respect among Gamers" Boxer is already a God he dosent need this win as much as yellow did. He also knows this is a very big and eargerly awaited game and he dosent even give yellow the benefit of playing a normal game, not even after it was 2-0 :[ Oh and just because Boxer said this and that on his interveiw everyone auto thinks its 100% true. Yea right its a way to cover his ass for such a BS Semi final.
hrm.. boxer won?, why is everyone givin him shit!?, I THINK boxer is out there to win, and he did exactly that. People need to harden up and get over it! no matter what anyone says they cant take that win away from boxer i say, good on him, he won the mental battle against yellow gg, im sure there will be a re in the near future.
to me games get interesting when there's shit like this from one player, but they do not really succeed, nor do they fail that's when it gets interesting having tech at low unit/drone/exp counts, and completely insane micro ensues.. we were close to having that this time, but oh well
On November 12 2004 18:24 Slaughter)BiO wrote: I have to agree with HasuWars stance on the boxer/yellow game issue but he IS taking it a bit to far. -.- Oh and A3iL3r0n its called "Respect among Gamers" Boxer is already a God he dosent need this win as much as yellow did. He also knows this is a very big and eargerly awaited game and he dosent even give yellow the benefit of playing a normal game, not even after it was 2-0 :[ Oh and just because Boxer said this and that on his interveiw everyone auto thinks its 100% true. Yea right its a way to cover his ass for such a BS Semi final.
Are you fucking serious?! Does Michael Jordan let anybody win because he feels like they deserve an easy game vs him? God, seriously, are you serious?
anyone who is still pissed is either retarded, loves the bandwagon, or is too fucking bad at starcraft to learn how to stop losing to bunker rush every game
StarCraft is more a mental game than a contest of macro/micro, it always has been, and boxer fucking destroyed yellow this time around
so what if they were short games? omg you weren't entertained? the guy's paid his dues alright? He's got PLENTY of entertaining games and amazing plays. You can't say you hate him because in THREE games he didn't play the way you want him to
His rush came THREE TIMES and yellow refused to change his build to compensate. Only Yellow knows why, so don't speculate.
i hope he mops the floor with oov, but thats mostly because i love boxer and i dont like oov
On November 12 2004 17:30 Slaughter)BiO wrote: Boxer Seriously did not show any respect for Yellow. He knows that Yellow is looking to solidify his place by FINALLY winning a league and what dose he do? Dose he give him a good well fought battle of Micr/macro? No he gave him 3 games of the same Bullcrap He could at least tried to win 1 game in the regular fashion -.- I mean Damn when he was up 2-0 he could have started playing Regular the third game was for pure humiliation.
Mmm, no. Why does Boxer owe Yellow anything? That's what makes competition fun, that you are trying to win no matter what (within the rules, of course) and because of this Boxer uses the same move an astonishing three times in a row and wins. He put in hard work to find the opening in the Zerg's build order and capitalize; that is the art of BW shown simply and artfully.
He dosent owe him easy games he just owes him a GOOD FUCKING GAME.
On November 12 2004 13:37 rei wrote: you first point why yellow choose to fight boxer with drones and expanding while knowing boxer is using the same strategy every game. here is why. first you need to understand boxer\'s mind set, which you ignored even when people tell you to read boxer\'s interview. boxer want micro intensive low unit count games. thi is what i think what\'s ganna happen when yellow choose to go off one base with lings to stop the rush. first boxer will realize oh nooo lings!!! that\'s many lings yes? so that\'s one base with many lings and not many drones. i just move my scv back to mine and get firebat and medics fast with very few scvs mining.and then yellow recon boxer\'s shit and goes like, crap he\'s powering up units i better make more lings and delay my tec so i dont\' get rape easly. so both got low economy and both of them is going to micro their ass off with the units they have. but now boxer has firebats medics and marines, while yellow got lings and mroe lings. so they go micro war just as boxer expected, but now boxer got even more advantage cause he has better units to micro with. so it ends up with the same goal boxer wanted to achieve, which is low unit count, micro war.
Actually, I'm not sure if anyone said this, but, not teching when you see bats would be really, REALLY stupid. Bats own the shit out of lings easily, and not teching when you see bats, but making more lings, would just be stupid. It would make more sense to tech to lurk, or Muta/ling the T, than to mass lings, because the lings would be raped so easily.
On the Boxer's strategic genius, again, not sure if anyone said this, but, honestly, who the hell expects someone to do the SAME FUCKING THING three times in a row? I think it's more a case of Yellow getting caught off guard. At the same time, I have to say, Boxer really did a good job on the strat, he obviously put a lot of work into it.
i know i won't forget this series, despite the fact we didn't see "incredible" micro or a close back and forth series of games. there are plenty of those to go around, especially the other games bewteen boxer and yellow, and there will be plenty more of those in the future. but i highly doubt we'll ever see a series like this again.
of course this is just my opinion, but feel free to flame and otherwise twist my logic around ^^;;
Oh I disagree. I think Boxer's micro in these games was unbelievable. His SCV line was perfect every time, he moved his SCVs out of the path of his Marines for more maneuverability, and he was able to protect his Bunkers with ease. That is something very few Terran players can do, and Boxer did it consistently.
On November 12 2004 17:30 Slaughter)BiO wrote: Boxer Seriously did not show any respect for Yellow. He knows that Yellow is looking to solidify his place by FINALLY winning a league and what dose he do? Dose he give him a good well fought battle of Micr/macro? No he gave him 3 games of the same Bullcrap He could at least tried to win 1 game in the regular fashion -.- I mean Damn when he was up 2-0 he could have started playing Regular the third game was for pure humiliation.
I agree with you ,that you should respect your opponent and not play risky do-or-die strats.I,myself never ever cheesed in any way vs any opponent for years.Just recently ,though,I thought of a way to use 8 rax in a way that is not so risky and Ive began useing it.Like killing him if he is fast hatch and going rax supply supply gas for very fast bats if hes not and in this way his drone count remains very low ,because he cant make drones in his 2nd hatch as usual and he must make some lings before his hatch completes for defence and Im not even slowed more than a regular 10/12 rax build,because I only skip scvs at 8 9 and 10 supply for like 4-5 secs each time.
So ,I kinda think Boxer would do something like this if he saw Yellow making hatch before pool and would still be in a good position.Its more Yellows fault for underestimating the 8 rax build. Though I dont like Boxer for doing it either.But he certainly showed the world for the 1000th time that he can always win and always with the most unexpected strategy.
Btw, since I didnt watch the games..Did Boxer go Rax Supply Rax or Rax Rax Supply in the 3 games?Ill be quite surprised if he went Rax Rax ,cause actually the marines from the second rax cant really be used for the bunker rush and are slowing your economy down incredibly much.(and this I really consider cheese) It would be interesting to know if he had prepared a factory build after 1 rax rush on 1 of the maps, like maybe Mercury, but we may never know.
he only had one barrack when he built the bunker, and 2 marines. And yes the marine/scv micro was very good.
And how can it be a great game if both players don`t do everything to win the entire time? Boxers build wasn`t do or die. So he wasn`t cheesing, then can someone explain to me what boxer did wrong?
when they say boxer beat july 5 times in a row, was July using 12-hatch-pool or 9 pool or what, does anyone have information on this? I hope they weren't pool before hatches..boxer may have told him to use a certain build order during those practise games
The people who are bitching about how it's going to revolutionize TvZ, it's not. Zerg needs to scout earlier. Yellow took the gamble and probably didn't expect Boxer to play the build 3 times, kind of a roulette style thing. If he had pooled first and boxer went standard 10 rax then he would have been behind, I'm VERY interested in the games (possibly even more so) than just regular games.
The people who are also bitching about how he might have lied about beating JulyZerg with the build, are you kidding? Do you think he would choose such a build if it DIDN"T have a chance to work? Hmm. Lets see, I'm going to "try" this build out and then if it works, I'll say that I researched into it, but if not then oh well. Get a brain, it's obvious he works on these cheeses a lot and has the sufficient control to pull them off, mind you, 3 times consecutively. One slip and the game is over, try doing that on a final that everyone is expecting you to win so that they can proclaim you as the Terran Emperor.
Hwoarang my speculation is that he told July to 12 hatch so that he could get the timing done on the rush. People call it cheese, cheese takes a huge amount of risk as well, I don't know the circumstances becuase I didn't see the vods yet, but yellow definitely could have say, 7drone scout and had a better idea of what was going on.
This is all of course a little disappointing really, I'm a bigger fan of Yellow despite being a T player and I just wonder how he feels after the games -.-
On November 12 2004 18:24 Slaughter)BiO wrote: I have to agree with HasuWars stance on the boxer/yellow game issue but he IS taking it a bit to far. -.- Oh and A3iL3r0n its called "Respect among Gamers" Boxer is already a God he dosent need this win as much as yellow did.
Oh, so he's supposed to lose? Okay.
There are so many people who voted for BoxeR and then this sort of crap? What's up with this? Do you guys even know who BoxeR is? Maybe you should research the guy before you start bashing him like everyone bashed Bush.
In fact, I'm seeing some similarity right now. SO many people have nothing better to do than go around bashing others. Give me a BREAK.
1) You are not a progamer
2) You know probably 1/10000 about the situation at hand here.
3) Progamers play to WIN. WIN! Yes. That's right. WIN! If they do not bring in WINS, the will have to re-evaluate being on their team. Plus, they won't get prizes which keep their money. If they don't have money, they cannot live.
4) That was perfectly entertaining. Any professional will tell you it's abysmally absurd to blame the attacker for being unique with his strategy. In fact, Bruce Lee's number 1 virtue was to do anything to WIN. He said FORGET STYLES, WIN.
5) The selfishness involved in this is above rediculous. Because you wern't "entertained" by having some sort of stretched-out long game, you are calling a player a "pansy." If you spoke with Yellow right now, he'd probably think this was insane. Get some manners. Korean progamers are far more mannered than you think. You can only dream they are ill-mannered pigs like yourselves for your own comfort.
6) As mentioned before, BoxeR's game is in his CONTROL. That's where he is entertaining, he is able to overcome his opponent as fast as possible with little resources. If his opponent cannot defeat this, that is their problem.
7) Cheese? What Cheese? There is no cheese in games. That's a stupid name made up by people who were frustrated by getting utterly owned by strategies over and over again. Instead of perfecting their game and training vs. these strategies (LIKE PROGAMERS DO), these people named them "cheese" and made fun of them. This is an easy way to: A) Get around training against them. B) Make fun of the person who uses them. C) Attempt to get out of being guilty for not training. Sorry, but there is obviously not "cheese" in REAL PRO gaming. Maybe in your world, but not theirs.
In fact, I remember when I was a young boy, when I played my friends and won, they'd go utterly insane and say I was being "cheap." Oooohhh. I see some similarity here. Hence the "young boy" part. ^^
8) Ok. I'm done here. If you guys can't see the light. Forget it. I'm not even arguing with you any more. Someone who calls BoxeR, the PROGAMING LEGEND, a Pansy, is not worth it.
On November 12 2004 18:24 Slaughter)BiO wrote: I have to agree with HasuWars stance on the boxer/yellow game issue but he IS taking it a bit to far. -.- Oh and A3iL3r0n its called "Respect among Gamers" Boxer is already a God he dosent need this win as much as yellow did.
Oh, so he's supposed to lose? Okay.
There are so many people who voted for BoxeR and then this sort of crap? What's up with this? Do you guys even know who BoxeR is? Maybe you should research the guy before you start bashing him like everyone bashed Bush.
In fact, I'm seeing some similarity right now. SO many people have nothing better to do than go around bashing others. Give me a BREAK.
1) You are not a progamer
2) You know probably 1/10000 about the situation at hand here.
3) Progamers play to WIN. WIN! Yes. That's right. WIN! If they do not bring in WINS, the will have to re-evaluate being on their team. Plus, they won't get prizes which keep their money. If they don't have money, they cannot live.
4) That was perfectly entertaining. Any professional will tell you it's abysmally absurd to blame the attacker for being unique with his strategy. In fact, Bruce Lee's number 1 virtue was to do anything to WIN. He said FORGET STYLES, WIN.
5) The selfishness involved in this is above rediculous. Because you wern't "entertained" by having some sort of stretched-out long game, you are calling a player a "pansy." If you spoke with Yellow right now, he'd probably think this was insane. Get some manners. Korean progamers are far more mannered than you think. You can only dream they are ill-mannered pigs like yourselves for your own comfort.
6) As mentioned before, BoxeR's game is in his CONTROL. That's where he is entertaining, he is able to overcome his opponent as fast as possible with little resources. If his opponent cannot defeat this, that is their problem.
7) Cheese? What Cheese? There is no cheese in games. That's a stupid name made up by people who were frustrated by getting utterly owned by strategies over and over again. Instead of perfecting their game and training vs. these strategies (LIKE PROGAMERS DO), these people named them "cheese" and made fun of them. This is an easy way to: A) Get around training against them. B) Make fun of the person who uses them. C) Attempt to get out of being guilty for not training. Sorry, but there is obviously not "cheese" in REAL PRO gaming. Maybe in your world, but not theirs.
In fact, I remember when I was a young boy, when I played my friends and won, they'd go utterly insane and say I was being "cheap." Oooohhh. I see some similarity here. Hence the "young boy" part. ^^
8) Ok. I'm done here. If you guys can't see the light. Forget it. I'm not even arguing with you any more. Someone who calls BoxeR, the PROGAMING LEGEND, a Pansy, is not worth it.
this was the first time boxer had a negative contribution to this game and that is a fact. He did a lot for this game and this game has done even more for him, and what he did today (or yesterday not quite sure) was a total disrespect for his opponent and the public that made him (and other progamers for that matter) what he is today. For the first time I'll hope to see Boxer losing really bad on an ogn final. This is my last post on the matter, I think pretty much anyone has said their piece.
On November 12 2004 18:24 Slaughter)BiO wrote: I have to agree with HasuWars stance on the boxer/yellow game issue but he IS taking it a bit to far. -.- Oh and A3iL3r0n its called "Respect among Gamers" Boxer is already a God he dosent need this win as much as yellow did.
Oh, so he's supposed to lose? Okay.
There are so many people who voted for BoxeR and then this sort of crap? What's up with this? Do you guys even know who BoxeR is? Maybe you should research the guy before you start bashing him like everyone bashed Bush.
In fact, I'm seeing some similarity right now. SO many people have nothing better to do than go around bashing others. Give me a BREAK.
1) You are not a progamer
2) You know probably 1/10000 about the situation at hand here.
3) Progamers play to WIN. WIN! Yes. That's right. WIN! If they do not bring in WINS, the will have to re-evaluate being on their team. Plus, they won't get prizes which keep their money. If they don't have money, they cannot live.
4) That was perfectly entertaining. Any professional will tell you it's abysmally absurd to blame the attacker for being unique with his strategy. In fact, Bruce Lee's number 1 virtue was to do anything to WIN. He said FORGET STYLES, WIN.
5) The selfishness involved in this is above rediculous. Because you wern't "entertained" by having some sort of stretched-out long game, you are calling a player a "pansy." If you spoke with Yellow right now, he'd probably think this was insane. Get some manners. Korean progamers are far more mannered than you think. You can only dream they are ill-mannered pigs like yourselves for your own comfort.
6) As mentioned before, BoxeR's game is in his CONTROL. That's where he is entertaining, he is able to overcome his opponent as fast as possible with little resources. If his opponent cannot defeat this, that is their problem.
7) Cheese? What Cheese? There is no cheese in games. That's a stupid name made up by people who were frustrated by getting utterly owned by strategies over and over again. Instead of perfecting their game and training vs. these strategies (LIKE PROGAMERS DO), these people named them "cheese" and made fun of them. This is an easy way to: A) Get around training against them. B) Make fun of the person who uses them. C) Attempt to get out of being guilty for not training. Sorry, but there is obviously not "cheese" in REAL PRO gaming. Maybe in your world, but not theirs.
In fact, I remember when I was a young boy, when I played my friends and won, they'd go utterly insane and say I was being "cheap." Oooohhh. I see some similarity here. Hence the "young boy" part. ^^
8) Ok. I'm done here. If you guys can't see the light. Forget it. I'm not even arguing with you any more. Someone who calls BoxeR, the PROGAMING LEGEND, a Pansy, is not worth it.
this was the first time boxer had a negative contribution to this game and that is a fact. He did a lot for this game and this game has done even more for him, and what he did today (or yesterday not quite sure) was a total disrespect for his opponent and the public that made him (and other progamers for that matter) what he is today. For the first time I'll hope to see Boxer losing really bad on an ogn final. This is my last post on the matter, I think pretty much anyone has said their piece.
You judge respect on what strategy someone uses during the game? Wow, you must consider it murder when you lose then. That's pretty bad mannered. When someone beats you, it's not a swift kick to the balls. It means you were defeated in a game.
I never said Boxer should lay down and let yellow walk over him now did I? Yes I know perfectly well who boxer is but all you boxer boys are just putting him Above the game :[ "boxer cannot do anything wrong or bad" is your mentality and you dive right in to defend him. And yes using that strat 3x in a row shows 0 respect for the player he played against. Why? Because in doing this he knows the Humiliation level will be higher. He didnt have to win in this way now did he? No plain and simple he was out to win in the way that would humiliate yellow the most.
Yellow lost Boxer to 3 bunkers rush on PURPOSE in oder to RUIN Boxer's image in people's eyes muahahaha yellow WON, that's what sun tzu art of war means
On November 12 2004 20:32 Elvin_vn wrote: you guys are stupid, yellow is smart.
Yellow lost Boxer to 3 bunkers rush on PURPOSE in oder to RUIN Boxer's image in people's eyes muahahaha yellow WON, that's what sun tzu art of war means
I bet if Yellow would have won with 3 9 pools every boxer fanboy would be tearing their hair out 10x worse then the people who are angred by boxers actions are.
On November 12 2004 20:31 Slaughter)BiO wrote: I never said Boxer should lay down and let yellow walk over him now did I? Yes I know perfectly well who boxer is but all you boxer boys are just putting him Above the game :[ "boxer cannot do anything wrong or bad" is your mentality and you dive right in to defend him. And yes using that strat 3x in a row shows 0 respect for the player he played against. Why? Because in doing this he knows the Humiliation level will be higher. He didnt have to win in this way now did he? No plain and simple he was out to win in the way that would humiliate yellow the most.
A winning move in Starcraft is not, and will never be, "wrong or bad." End of my arguement.
On November 12 2004 20:31 Slaughter)BiO wrote: I never said Boxer should lay down and let yellow walk over him now did I? Yes I know perfectly well who boxer is but all you boxer boys are just putting him Above the game :[ "boxer cannot do anything wrong or bad" is your mentality and you dive right in to defend him. And yes using that strat 3x in a row shows 0 respect for the player he played against. Why? Because in doing this he knows the Humiliation level will be higher. He didnt have to win in this way now did he? No plain and simple he was out to win in the way that would humiliate yellow the most.
A winning move in Starcraft is not, and will never be, "wrong or bad." End of my arguement.
what is wrong (in my opinion) is that Boxer planed from the start to decide this series in the very first minutes of every game, that imho is a terrible line of thought for someone so influent in this game and will never help bw improve and move forward
i know i won't forget this series, despite the fact we didn't see "incredible" micro or a close back and forth series of games. there are plenty of those to go around, especially the other games bewteen boxer and yellow, and there will be plenty more of those in the future. but i highly doubt we'll ever see a series like this again.
of course this is just my opinion, but feel free to flame and otherwise twist my logic around ^^;;
Oh I disagree. I think Boxer's micro in these games was unbelievable. His SCV line was perfect every time, he moved his SCVs out of the path of his Marines for more maneuverability, and he was able to protect his Bunkers with ease. That is something very few Terran players can do, and Boxer did it consistently.
i agree with you too, i didn't mean to suggest i wasn't gaping at the scv/rine vs drone slide dance display. but people i think wanted something like 1 rine catching a lurker or dropship magic-- as that usually gets the oohs and ahhs. but yes, what more pure micro is there than drone vs. scv/rine? ^^
God 1024MB, that post you linked was one heap of trash. I had to literally squint my eyes reading your 8 points. From
"You know probably 1/10000 about the situation at hand here."
All the way to your young boy description of people who want good games, your post was filled with garbage. I will attempt to try and have a proper argument and counter some of your arguments that arent filled with trash.
You say that progamers should do everything they can to win. How would you feel if every single game turned out to be 5-10 minute games filled with 9pools, bunker rushes, proxy gates, and proxy raxes? Do you actually like watching these games? What would happen if when YOU played starcarft, every game would end within 10 mins? Every game you would either win by cheese or lose by it. Im 100% sure you wouldnt be playing this game for long.
You say that they shouldnt care about entertaining us. I think they should. Entertainment is the only thing that will keep the fanbase alive. You have to accept that there is a LARGE majority of people out there who actually like long entertaining games. Delivering garbage games like these will do nothing but push them away. If all boxing matches started to end up in 1 round knockouts, nobody will be attracted to watch it. I for one would stop watching it. I watch boxing (and like millions of other people) in hope of that amazing back and forth fight where the boxers give it their all. I remember fights not because they lasted 1 round, but because they went all the way to the 12/14 round where both fighters toughed it out and gave it everything they had.
This was also a Boxer vs Yellow CLASSIC. There is no better way to promote this game then have a classic series of back and forth action. Thats why I like players like Nada and Iloveoov (well i dont really like iloveoov but he entertains me) who are able to deliver high quality games. If I want some crappy ass games filled with bunker rushes, ill go play in wgtour myself.
Series like these do nothing to promote starcraft. I stayed up all night hoping I would get a good series and all I get is a "Fuck You, I play to win". How do you think this makes me feel?
On November 12 2004 19:36 Beast_Bg wrote: I agree with you ,that you should respect your opponent and not play risky do-or-die strats.I,myself never ever cheesed in any way vs any opponent for years.Just recently ,though,I thought of a way to use 8 rax in a way that is not so risky and Ive began useing it.Like killing him if he is fast hatch and going rax supply supply gas for very fast bats if hes not and in this way his drone count remains very low ,because he cant make drones in his 2nd hatch as usual and he must make some lings before his hatch completes for defence and Im not even slowed more than a regular 10/12 rax build,because I only skip scvs at 8 9 and 10 supply for like 4-5 secs each time.
Btw, since I didnt watch the games..Did Boxer go Rax Supply Rax or Rax Rax Supply in the 3 games?Ill be quite surprised if he went Rax Rax ,cause actually the marines from the second rax cant really be used for the bunker rush and are slowing your economy down incredibly much.(and this I really consider cheese) It would be interesting to know if he had prepared a factory build after 1 rax rush on 1 of the maps, like maybe Mercury, but we may never know.
boxer's build as i saw it was 8 rax 9 depot 16 depot or so to fast acad. so basically, a 1 rax fast acad build with a cheese rush thrown in. so, in essence, getting the benefits of a fast rush + the aggressiveness of a 1 rax acad rush should the scv rush not succeed.
The Koreans in this thread need to take a step back from Boxer's crotch. I rarely agree with Hasu, but he's right this time. So is TomsOn. Boxer got lucky all three times. Yellow didn't expect it thrice and got surprised.
The rush isn't refined, didnt' take nights of hard work to produce. If I were going to do some shitty cheese strategy, I'd try my best to overstate it too, so I don't look like a prick when I win with it three times in a row. To take Boxer's word at face value is so ludicrous, he has much to gain from a favorable public perception of his performance -- that he worked hard for these victories and didn't just cheese his way to the win.
- Boxer trained very hard before the match - Counter to 8 rax is 9 pool. But Boxer knows this too and he sure planned this as well. - If I 9 pool, I will enter a battle which Boxer prepared for me. - I can play micro game with anyone else, but not with Boxer. 9 pool = automatic lose. - I must do something he never expected. - I must do something he never trained to play with. - I must gamble hatch before pool and pull off his rush by drones.
Eventually, Yellow lost. It's not his fault.
May be the zerg is so weak in a micro war at early stage.
boxer's build as i saw it was 8 rax 9 depot 16 depot or so to fast acad. so basically, a 1 rax fast acad build with a cheese rush thrown in. so, in essence, getting the benefits of a fast rush + the aggressiveness of a 1 rax acad rush should the scv rush not succeed.
that's where i was getting at, if yellow cancle his hatch and make one inside his main, or not expanding at all, boxer would run up yellow's cliff with his fast acad rush with bats medics marines. yellow must then sukens up and make more lings, you all know how sick boxer's micro is when he got a group of shits inside a zerg base, and yes it will still play right into boxer's game as he will force yellow to delay tec and dance with boxer using lings
On November 12 2004 20:53 Brown wrote: The Koreans in this thread need to take a step back from Boxer's crotch. I rarely agree with Hasu, but he's right this time. So is TomsOn. Boxer got lucky all three times. Yellow didn't expect it thrice and got surprised.
The rush isn't refined, didnt' take nights of hard work to produce. If I were going to do some shitty cheese strategy, I'd try my best to overstate it too, so I don't look like a prick when I win with it three times in a row. To take Boxer's word at face value is so ludicrous, he has much to gain from a favorable public perception of his performance -- that he worked hard for these victories and didn't just cheese his way to the win.
taking a moment from the awesome head that i'm giving boxer, let me take a breath to respond:
so in essence what you're saying is that he really badly wanted to use cheese so he could win, but on the other hand would just lie in the post-game interview so he could recover his "lost popularity?"
boxer's build as i saw it was 8 rax 9 depot 16 depot or so to fast acad. so basically, a 1 rax fast acad build with a cheese rush thrown in. so, in essence, getting the benefits of a fast rush + the aggressiveness of a 1 rax acad rush should the scv rush not succeed.
that's where i was getting at, if yellow cancle his hatch and make one inside his main, or not expanding at all, boxer would run up yellow's cliff with his fast acad rush with bats medics marines. yellow must then sukens up and make more lings, you all know how sick boxer's micro is when he got a group of shits inside a zerg base, and yes it will still play right into boxer's game as he will force yellow to delay tec and dance with boxer using lings
This is really bad for zerg. Zergling are too weak to micro. The only strat I could think of to beat boxer is 2 sunken with good placement at early stage then go hydra/zergling. May be with hydra support you can win the micro war which pure lings will lose to. Then may be go lurker and expo.
On November 12 2004 19:58 exalted wrote: This is all of course a little disappointing really, I'm a bigger fan of Yellow despite being a T player and I just wonder how he feels after the games -.-
i, too, am a bigger fan of yellow and i'm disappointed that he lost. but i am guessing that he congratulated boxer, is not *bitter* about the strategy that boxer used (though probably bitter about losing), and is thinking of what the best counter to this 8 rax build is for the future. why? because yellow is a pro, and he's all class.
it would really be a basis for "losing respect" if a progamer like yellow publically started complaining via interviews or such that some strat or another was "cheesy" and that he would've won if the games were "straight up."
uhjoo you can't possible enlight all those who doesn't understand the game like most of us do, they can't see the art in it. they have not yet play the game enough to the level where they can understand why and how the game works. and boxer does not need us to defend him. so after we clearly explicitly stated why and how boxer did it to yellow, and they still refuse to listen, there is nothing more we can do. just let them be, we tried to help them but we failed. they are not worth any more of our time
On November 12 2004 21:15 rei wrote: uhjoo you can't possible enlight all those who doesn't understand the game like most of us do, they can't see the art in it. they have not yet play the game enough to the level where they can understand why and how the game works. and boxer does not need us to defend him. so after we clearly explicitly stated why and how boxer did it to yellow, and they still refuse to listen, there is nothing more we can do. just let them be, we tried to help them but we failed. they are not worth any more of our time
yeah i guess I should give up on you too. You are the self proclaimed enlightened one after all. Congrats.
On November 12 2004 21:15 rei wrote: uhjoo you can't possible enlight all those who doesn't understand the game like most of us do, they can't see the art in it. they have not yet play the game enough to the level where they can understand why and how the game works. and boxer does not need us to defend him. so after we clearly explicitly stated why and how boxer did it to yellow, and they still refuse to listen, there is nothing more we can do. just let them be, we tried to help them but we failed. they are not worth any more of our time
it's easy to understand why hasuwar insulted u so much
ohh no i'm sorry, my fault i should not even post it, i should just pm to uhjoo. can any admin delete that post? cause it's ganna start a new fame war and this time it's right at me.
Hey, part of the appeal of SC is that it's unpredictable. Boxer's appeal is not much different. Just when you thought he was going to play straight and give us 20+ minute displays of crazy micro and innovative strats he deploys a "cheese" rush not once, twice, but three times to turn what was an expected match of the year into a 15 minute embarrassment for Yellow.
Weeks before the match was people to take place, polls were taken, opinions were asked, and everyone had the same expectations for a 5 game close series. It didnt' turn out that way. Now people are riled because they didn't get what they want. Who's to blame for their disappointment? Yellow, who lost to the same strategy 3 times in a row? Boxer, who would have risked tens of thousands of dollars if his priority was to entertain rather than to win? Or, is it the fans themselves? Truth is, Boxer didn't let us down, we let ourselves down. Boxer is a professional gamer, this is his livelyhood. He doesn't get money proportionate to the entertainment he bestows on T.V. and live-stream viewers. He gets it from winning. That's all there is to it.
I say Boxer has entertained as much as he could throughout his storied career as a Pro-gamer, and to say that he's selfish only reflections the selfishness that is inherent in us.
Some people make it look like Boxer's build is unbeatable because he was going for rush+fast acad blablabla... If there was a Terran build that puts you ahead whatever the map and whatever Zerg does, I guess it would already been widely known and no pro zerg would ever win a game against Terran. By the way, Boxer is not the only one who used the same build 3 times in a row in this match.
On November 12 2004 20:31 Slaughter)BiO wrote: I never said Boxer should lay down and let yellow walk over him now did I? Yes I know perfectly well who boxer is but all you boxer boys are just putting him Above the game :[ "boxer cannot do anything wrong or bad" is your mentality and you dive right in to defend him. And yes using that strat 3x in a row shows 0 respect for the player he played against. Why? Because in doing this he knows the Humiliation level will be higher. He didnt have to win in this way now did he? No plain and simple he was out to win in the way that would humiliate yellow the most.
A winning move in Starcraft is not, and will never be, "wrong or bad." End of my arguement.
what is wrong (in my opinion) is that Boxer planed from the start to decide this series in the very first minutes of every game, that imho is a terrible line of thought for someone so influent in this game and will never help bw improve and move forward
It's clear that many of them plan this. But it hardly ever happens because their initial attack is usually countered.
And to Tien, as I also posted in the other thread:
So basically you like dummied up, rigged games for your entertainment?
In that case, let me refer you to a little thing called the WWE.
All I know is when I heard the results of the game, I laughed for minutes straight. Then I did a little dance. Say what you will about Boxer but none of you saw that crap coming three times in a row. To quote Manifesto (at least I think it was Mani), Yellow simply "fell down the steepest stairs in Seoul."
On November 12 2004 21:15 rei wrote: uhjoo you can't possible enlight all those who doesn't understand the game like most of us do, they can't see the art in it. they have not yet play the game enough to the level where they can understand why and how the game works. and boxer does not need us to defend him. so after we clearly explicitly stated why and how boxer did it to yellow, and they still refuse to listen, there is nothing more we can do. just let them be, we tried to help them but we failed. they are not worth any more of our time
Even though I agree with what you said before, you look like a pathetic condescending dickhead. By the way you don't need an admin to delete your own posts.
The WWE entertains me for other reasons, the stupidity of it.
And no, nothing in my post ever mentions me liking rigged up games. I like games where players have a mutual concensus not to cheese into oblivion. I like it when they tell themselves "Lets make this a respectful and fun series".
On November 12 2004 21:52 Tien wrote: The WWE entertains me for other reasons, the stupidity of it.
And no, nothing in my post ever mentions me liking rigged up games. I like games where players have a mutual concensus not to cheese into oblivion. I like it when they tell themselves "Lets make this a respectful and fun series".
When will the fans get what they deserve?
Actually it's fans being fans of a player. They don't "Deserve" anything. If they are upset, they can stop being fans. I for one, am a fan of BoxeR as well as MANY other progamers. I don't care what they do in the game, I'll always be a fan. It's because of their style I guess.
Now, if they were to go and cuss at another player or something, that'd be different.
Somehow you all remind me of the Musketeer Athos, to whom his friend d'Artagnan said "if you would some day become a military leader and decided to attack your enemy, you would not only do it in clear daylight, but also send to him your exact battle plan and strategy beforehand, so that no one could later acuse you of baseness and deceit". And also he said "what in times of peace would definetly be considered foul and low acting, is merely a war trick in times of warfare". (please excuse me for my poor citing from memory).
By what judgement is "cheese" low and how you put it "gay" strategy? By what logic one should never do it? By what right some of you acuse Boxer of showing disrespect and lack of entertainment only for using a smart and daring strategy?
Excuse me, but such statements only show your own disrespect and lack of taste. Boxer did what he does best, he forced his enemy to play his game, and totally decimated him in what some already call "the most one-sided and fast best-of-five match ever".
Or maybe someone will be so kind as to enlighten me and give me any single logical reason why Boxer should not do what he did?
On November 12 2004 20:31 Slaughter)BiO wrote: I never said Boxer should lay down and let yellow walk over him now did I? Yes I know perfectly well who boxer is but all you boxer boys are just putting him Above the game :[ "boxer cannot do anything wrong or bad" is your mentality and you dive right in to defend him. And yes using that strat 3x in a row shows 0 respect for the player he played against. Why? Because in doing this he knows the Humiliation level will be higher. He didnt have to win in this way now did he? No plain and simple he was out to win in the way that would humiliate yellow the most.
A winning move in Starcraft is not, and will never be, "wrong or bad." End of my arguement.
what is wrong (in my opinion) is that Boxer planed from the start to decide this series in the very first minutes of every game, that imho is a terrible line of thought for someone so influent in this game and will never help bw improve and move forward
It's clear that many of them plan this. But it hardly ever happens because their initial attack is usually countered.
And to Tien, as I also posted in the other thread:
So basically you like dummied up, rigged games for your entertainment?
In that case, let me refer you to a little thing called the WWE.
No,u know as well as I do (or any bw player, yellow included) that if yellow beat that inicial attack it would be gg from boxer, that simple. this doesn't happen with the first attack derived from most builds like u're saying.
PS: the comment was not intended to me but after reading what tien said I have no clue how u came up with that conclusion.
PPS: Really, I can understand Boxer fans are happy to see him back at a final but there's no need to try to transform everything he does in to a genius incredible move...he cheesed,that's all there is to it, he cheesed with great micro and timing, but he cheesed. Some of us find it ethically wrong, some don't care. My personal opinion (as I stated above) is that if players like Boxer had decided to play their important games like this bw wouldn't have evolved and become the game we all love right now.
On November 12 2004 21:52 Tien wrote: The WWE entertains me for other reasons, the stupidity of it.
And no, nothing in my post ever mentions me liking rigged up games. I like games where players have a mutual concensus not to cheese into oblivion. I like it when they tell themselves "Lets make this a respectful and fun series".
When will the fans get what they deserve?
What they deserve? They deserve nothing, and they are owed nothing. Interest is what you make of it. There is no reason to have a selfish attitude. Just because you personally would have rather seen a 30-minute slugfest doesn't diminish the coolness of these games in the eyes of others. The way Boxer wins is entirely up to him, and any win against Yellow shows a lot of skill.
On November 12 2004 20:31 Slaughter)BiO wrote: I never said Boxer should lay down and let yellow walk over him now did I? Yes I know perfectly well who boxer is but all you boxer boys are just putting him Above the game :[ "boxer cannot do anything wrong or bad" is your mentality and you dive right in to defend him. And yes using that strat 3x in a row shows 0 respect for the player he played against. Why? Because in doing this he knows the Humiliation level will be higher. He didnt have to win in this way now did he? No plain and simple he was out to win in the way that would humiliate yellow the most.
A winning move in Starcraft is not, and will never be, "wrong or bad." End of my arguement.
what is wrong (in my opinion) is that Boxer planed from the start to decide this series in the very first minutes of every game, that imho is a terrible line of thought for someone so influent in this game and will never help bw improve and move forward
It's clear that many of them plan this. But it hardly ever happens because their initial attack is usually countered.
And to Tien, as I also posted in the other thread:
So basically you like dummied up, rigged games for your entertainment?
In that case, let me refer you to a little thing called the WWE.
No,u know as well as I do (or any bw player, yellow included) that if yellow beat that inicial attack it would be gg from boxer, that simple. this doesn't happen with the first attack derived from most builds like u're saying.
PS: the comment was not intended to me but after reading what tien said I have no clue how u came up with that conclusion.
PPS: Really, I can understand Boxer fans are happy to see him back at a final but there's no need to try to transform everything he does in to a genius incredible move...he cheesed,that's all there is to it, he cheesed with great micro and timing, but he cheesed. Some of us find it ethically wrong, some don't care. My personal opinion (as I stated above) is that if players like Boxer had decided to play their important games like this bw wouldn't have evolved and become the game we all love right now.
read the interview boy. Boxer wanted a micro game. If Yellow went 9 pool Boxer would also be happy.
On November 12 2004 20:31 Slaughter)BiO wrote: I never said Boxer should lay down and let yellow walk over him now did I? Yes I know perfectly well who boxer is but all you boxer boys are just putting him Above the game :[ "boxer cannot do anything wrong or bad" is your mentality and you dive right in to defend him. And yes using that strat 3x in a row shows 0 respect for the player he played against. Why? Because in doing this he knows the Humiliation level will be higher. He didnt have to win in this way now did he? No plain and simple he was out to win in the way that would humiliate yellow the most.
A winning move in Starcraft is not, and will never be, "wrong or bad." End of my arguement.
what is wrong (in my opinion) is that Boxer planed from the start to decide this series in the very first minutes of every game, that imho is a terrible line of thought for someone so influent in this game and will never help bw improve and move forward
It's clear that many of them plan this. But it hardly ever happens because their initial attack is usually countered.
And to Tien, as I also posted in the other thread:
So basically you like dummied up, rigged games for your entertainment?
In that case, let me refer you to a little thing called the WWE.
No,u know as well as I do (or any bw player, yellow included) that if yellow beat that inicial attack it would be gg from boxer, that simple. this doesn't happen with the first attack derived from most builds like u're saying.
PS: the comment was not intended to me but after reading what tien said I have no clue how u came up with that conclusion.
PPS: Really, I can understand Boxer fans are happy to see him back at a final but there's no need to try to transform everything he does in to a genius incredible move...he cheesed,that's all there is to it, he cheesed with great micro and timing, but he cheesed. Some of us find it ethically wrong, some don't care. My personal opinion (as I stated above) is that if players like Boxer had decided to play their important games like this bw wouldn't have evolved and become the game we all love right now.
read the interview boy. Boxer wanted a micro game. If Yellow went 9 pool Boxer would also be happy.
I didn't say "if he countered it well" I said "if he beat it". And that's not the point, the point is: planning the semis based on that strat brings nothing positive into the bw, if programers did that for the past 4 or 5 years bw would not be what it is now.
Who cares? Maybe if you woudl get off your ass and make creative strats then you could get the ball moving as well, it's like you completely rely on them to make the game progress, why don't you instead of bitching about how boxer shows a start that is "cheesY" and think about an appropriate counter like what Yellow is doing right now? Jesus christ.
On November 12 2004 20:45 Kobayashi wrote: what is wrong (in my opinion) is that Boxer planed from the start to decide this series in the very first minutes of every game, that imho is a terrible line of thought for someone so influent in this game and will never help bw improve and move forward
you dont understand the build order
its not meant to end the game immediately, it just happened to work out that way
its meant to force both players to play with almost no economy, making it mainly a control battle, which Boxer is most comfortable in
Agree with whoever said Boxer is not the only one who used the same build three times in a row! I have no doubts that Yellow has gone home to think about how to combat this build rather than sitting around bitching about Boxer's 'cheese' and refusal to play him with a standard build. Seriously... everyone who complains about certain types of build is just the sort of player who will never be top level because they make excuses rather than learning to play.
sigh... everyone who is against boxer for doing what he did to win, are fools!, even Yellow dosnt blame him ( Boxer ) for what he did, go check out his interview from after the match! Bio this is especially for you.
On November 13 2004 00:51 DevilZbOy wrote: actually, ppl who complain about what boxer did, should just give starcraft up! , amen
exactly what i feared, some people will give up
It depends on yellow now. If yellow quits right now starcraft will fall. If yellow fight, starcraft will have another chance.
W-T-F? Did you actually mean this?
btw, did anyone else smell July on SK T1?
Haha, SKT-1 would finally have a good Zerg practice partner! Come on... Mumyung?
Yellow will, of course, move on. I'm sure, like anyone, he'll be upset for some time, but he is, after all, a pro, and if he dwells on this for too long it will begin to effect his other games, which would be worse than being beaten three times by the same strat. When it comes down to it, it's just one league, and there will be others-- to quit over something like that... that'd be really low.
Boxer = Respect Man u good, because u got strenght to do something, that even TL community dont understand. Honor not blame. U are so upredictible, that even YELLOW didnt know, that u will go the same strategy 3 times in a row. unpredictible = best
I found a good way to find this strategy out as i have already played against a few attempts at it after this damn game finished, but )Is(City used to 6 drone scout for ZvR and I think that works well for ZvT if you are worried about bunk rushed. Unless is is across the map positions you can scout the terran early enough for a 9 pool if needed.
all this people complaining about boxer beating yellow cheesely
go kill yourself u know
the objective is to win
no matter how
if yellow have practiced he shouldve also practiced an anti bunker rush strat
dont call boxer a pansy when you guys dont get payed to play and waste your time "believing you will become a progamer" when u will never will when theres hundreds of "KOREAN PROGAMERS" already
and progaming is in Korea so if ur not Korean and dont know their culture
ur practically NOTHING
so now stfu and play ur stupid bnet or what ever league sc games
cuz you caring is not worth it
btw i dont play sc but im just so freaking tired of reading these "thinking they are progamers" people who posts their ignorant opinions about boxer
the reminds me of ppl commenting on modern art with "bah, that's rubbish, I could've done that". I always want to shout in their faces "maybe, the point is: you didn't"
On November 13 2004 04:31 thelucas wrote: Boxer = Respect Man u good, because u got strenght to do something, that even TL community dont understand. Honor not blame. U are so upredictible, that even YELLOW didnt know, that u will go the same strategy 3 times in a row. unpredictible = best
On November 12 2004 20:47 Tien wrote: Ill post what I said in another thread here.
God 1024MB, that post you linked was one heap of trash. I had to literally squint my eyes reading your 8 points. From
"You know probably 1/10000 about the situation at hand here."
All the way to your young boy description of people who want good games, your post was filled with garbage. I will attempt to try and have a proper argument and counter some of your arguments that arent filled with trash.
You say that progamers should do everything they can to win. How would you feel if every single game turned out to be 5-10 minute games filled with 9pools, bunker rushes, proxy gates, and proxy raxes? Do you actually like watching these games? What would happen if when YOU played starcarft, every game would end within 10 mins? Every game you would either win by cheese or lose by it. Im 100% sure you wouldnt be playing this game for long.
You say that they shouldnt care about entertaining us. I think they should. Entertainment is the only thing that will keep the fanbase alive. You have to accept that there is a LARGE majority of people out there who actually like long entertaining games. Delivering garbage games like these will do nothing but push them away. If all boxing matches started to end up in 1 round knockouts, nobody will be attracted to watch it. I for one would stop watching it. I watch boxing (and like millions of other people) in hope of that amazing back and forth fight where the boxers give it their all. I remember fights not because they lasted 1 round, but because they went all the way to the 12/14 round where both fighters toughed it out and gave it everything they had.
This was also a Boxer vs Yellow CLASSIC. There is no better way to promote this game then have a classic series of back and forth action. Thats why I like players like Nada and Iloveoov (well i dont really like iloveoov but he entertains me) who are able to deliver high quality games. If I want some crappy ass games filled with bunker rushes, ill go play in wgtour myself.
Series like these do nothing to promote starcraft. I stayed up all night hoping I would get a good series and all I get is a "Fuck You, I play to win". How do you think this makes me feel?
I wonder why noone answered on this post. You are completely right. Or well, other people just like to watch cheese vs cheese games... Look for Nada for example-he never uses luck based strats and his games last longer, when more things can happen. However he is confident and doesnt need to cheese. Despite the fact I hate pvt, I prefered reach vs oov games with creative strats and not the simple bunker rush. Maybe for you it is fun to see bunker rush 3times. For me it is the standard build I see while playing zvt on wgtour, which leads to uninteresting games. Of course there is also Yellow's fault -he could have made 12pool->11hatch.
On November 13 2004 08:31 distant_voice wrote: the reminds me of ppl commenting on modern art with "bah, that's rubbish, I could've done that". I always want to shout in their faces "maybe, the point is: you didn't"
to create modern art and live from it, you need to have connections not skills, plus why is modern art even considered good? 95% people dont understand "the white square on white canvass", because it's crap. 'normal' art, or artists creating better modern art can be understood by everyone -this is good, this is art. in addition I dont know wtf do you mean, what does it have to do with starcraft
Jesus Christ, is every second person in this post a moron? Boxer, nor any other progamer owes to you a 20+ minute slugfest. To think otherwise is inexplicable with any logic that doesn't involve unreasonable selfishness. These games ARE NOT scripted, so why treat this like the players can actually control what type of games are played? No, not every single game from now is going to be a cheese battle, firstly not everyone has a Boxer level of control; secondly, progamers want a consistent win % and cheesing every game would put you at about a 50% win ratio; thirdly, Boxer's "cheese" was effective because no one had ever done it three games in a row before, which was brilliant. This series was exciting because who the fuck cheeses three games in a row? Games can be exciting for the actual action that goes in the game, and ALSO the mental games that go on before during and after each match.
Just a question - Have any of you guys even watched the games? They arn't even over THAT fast. I bet YellOw learned some stuff from these anyway. It might actually strengthen his future game with ZvT.
July can't go to SKT1.. Teams are going to be too uneven T-T Its already uneven T-T And especially for POS if July goes to SKT1 POS has no ace player who represents the team
Boxer practiced 8 rax a lot, yellow practiced fast exp a lot. If yellow had gone 9 pool in the 2nd game, he would have to ignore his entire training and thus be thrown into a improvisation game, which boxer is known to be the best at, not to mention that boxer did practice that build a lot. He had much higher chance of winning by playing the way he played and trying to find a solution to his problem (stopping the rush).
On November 12 2004 21:15 rei wrote: uhjoo you can't possible enlight all those who doesn't understand the game like most of us do, they can't see the art in it. they have not yet play the game enough to the level where they can understand why and how the game works. and boxer does not need us to defend him. so after we clearly explicitly stated why and how boxer did it to yellow, and they still refuse to listen, there is nothing more we can do. just let them be, we tried to help them but we failed. they are not worth any more of our time
yeah i guess I should give up on you too. You are the self proclaimed enlightened one after all. Congrats.
You know what I don't understand Tien? You don't even fucking play this game....What right do you have to talk about it. None.
man ack1027, you are the last person I want to start a discussion with over this topic.
Im willing to drop this topic right here and now. We all have our oppinions about this and lets just leave it at that. To each his own.
I dont play this game? I thought I did for the past 4 years. Maybe im wrong, with you being the enlightened one maybe you are right, I never played this game. Or maybe because I quit playing constantly 4 months ago (I got fed up of bunker rushes) means im no longer entitled to say anything about it, even though I still play with friends once in a while who I know wont cheese me every game.
EDIT: If you do want to add anything constructive to this topic than respond to my post here:
On November 12 2004 20:33 Kobayashi wrote: Actually I'll change that, it shows a ton of respect (maybe a little fear even) for his opponent and a total disrespect for the public.
On November 12 2004 21:03 Elvin_vn wrote: Yellow's logic:
- Boxer trained very hard before the match - Counter to 8 rax is 9 pool. But Boxer knows this too and he sure planned this as well. - If I 9 pool, I will enter a battle which Boxer prepared for me. - I can play micro game with anyone else, but not with Boxer. 9 pool = automatic lose. - I must do something he never expected. - I must do something he never trained to play with. - I must gamble hatch before pool and pull off his rush by drones.
Eventually, Yellow lost. It's not his fault.
May be the zerg is so weak in a micro war at early stage.
On November 12 2004 19:36 Beast_Bg wrote: I agree with you ,that you should respect your opponent and not play risky do-or-die strats.I,myself never ever cheesed in any way vs any opponent for years.Just recently ,though,I thought of a way to use 8 rax in a way that is not so risky and Ive began useing it.Like killing him if he is fast hatch and going rax supply supply gas for very fast bats if hes not and in this way his drone count remains very low ,because he cant make drones in his 2nd hatch as usual and he must make some lings before his hatch completes for defence and Im not even slowed more than a regular 10/12 rax build,because I only skip scvs at 8 9 and 10 supply for like 4-5 secs each time.
Btw, since I didnt watch the games..Did Boxer go Rax Supply Rax or Rax Rax Supply in the 3 games?Ill be quite surprised if he went Rax Rax ,cause actually the marines from the second rax cant really be used for the bunker rush and are slowing your economy down incredibly much.(and this I really consider cheese) It would be interesting to know if he had prepared a factory build after 1 rax rush on 1 of the maps, like maybe Mercury, but we may never know.
boxer's build as i saw it was 8 rax 9 depot 16 depot or so to fast acad. so basically, a 1 rax fast acad build with a cheese rush thrown in. so, in essence, getting the benefits of a fast rush + the aggressiveness of a 1 rax acad rush should the scv rush not succeed.
So its my build ,with the slight difference of Boxers 1000 times better micro.
Haha, now that I remember I even did it 3 times in a row vs some Gamei zerg to see if it works if predicted.I can show you the replays!! :D
A bit off topic, but hell .... Is there any possibility to send some cheers to Yellow? I personally would love to post at his fan site or something, or maybe a TL.net comunity letter or soemthing? Can any of the Koreans around here help with this... PM me or post here...
On November 13 2004 13:59 WickeD wrote: A bit off topic, but hell .... Is there any possibility to send some cheers to Yellow? I personally would love to post at his fan site or something, or maybe a TL.net comunity letter or soemthing? Can any of the Koreans around here help with this... PM me or post here...
I would mail him "GOD has abadoned you, but we are with you"
On November 13 2004 12:45 SoL.Origin wrote: I think people don't understand something:
Boxer practiced 8 rax a lot, yellow practiced fast exp a lot. If yellow had gone 9 pool in the 2nd game, he would have to ignore his entire training and thus be thrown into a improvisation game, which boxer is known to be the best at, not to mention that boxer did practice that build a lot. He had much higher chance of winning by playing the way he played and trying to find a solution to his problem (stopping the rush).
]
This man is golden. He speaks the truth.
Now the question is: what will happen to zvt? Is it only based on maps? Or whats up? There will never be perfectly balanced map. Can YellOw be the
You must be forgetting that boxer said he was planning to have a low econ micro oriented game, not to kill yellow with the first attack. The rush was an opening to his strategy, not an attempt of cheese. It's meant to make the zerg cancel the hatchery or spend a lot of minerals to maintain it, so then both players are poor as a result; which results in a few units, which is just the way boxer likes it. For all you know, boxer intended to have some good back and forth games; it was yellow who lost because boxer's attacks were very good and yellow was very stubborn.
On November 13 2004 12:45 SoL.Origin wrote: I think people don't understand something:
Boxer practiced 8 rax a lot, yellow practiced fast exp a lot. If yellow had gone 9 pool in the 2nd game, he would have to ignore his entire training and thus be thrown into a improvisation game, which boxer is known to be the best at, not to mention that boxer did practice that build a lot. He had much higher chance of winning by playing the way he played and trying to find a solution to his problem (stopping the rush).
On November 13 2004 22:50 MPXMX wrote: In response to Tien's post
You must be forgetting that boxer said he was planning to have a low econ micro oriented game, not to kill yellow with the first attack. The rush was an opening to his strategy, not an attempt of cheese. It's meant to make the zerg cancel the hatchery or spend a lot of minerals to maintain it, so then both players are poor as a result; which results in a few units, which is just the way boxer likes it. For all you know, boxer intended to have some good back and forth games; it was yellow who lost because boxer's attacks were very good and yellow was very stubborn.
Its practically impossible to have a back and forth game when your first priority is to rush the hell out of your opponent. His plan A was to win quickly with rush, and plan B was to force a low econ game which tend to be extremely boring. Game 1 for example.
I have only seen 1 game in my entire life where both players played off a low econ and forced a long game. That was a replay of Chojja vs some terran where Chojja 5 or 6 pools the terran which goes standard 12 rax.
I really dont want to have an argument over build orders, but I just wanted to add that its very hard for zerg to play pool first like Testie said if the Terran goes straight up 12 rax. It has always been a gamble for zerg whether or not to go hatch first to even the gameplay, or start off at a disadvantage and hopefully count on the terran to do something other than a standard build, which isnt common.
On November 13 2004 22:50 MPXMX wrote: In response to Tien's post
You must be forgetting that boxer said he was planning to have a low econ micro oriented game, not to kill yellow with the first attack. The rush was an opening to his strategy, not an attempt of cheese. It's meant to make the zerg cancel the hatchery or spend a lot of minerals to maintain it, so then both players are poor as a result; which results in a few units, which is just the way boxer likes it. For all you know, boxer intended to have some good back and forth games; it was yellow who lost because boxer's attacks were very good and yellow was very stubborn.
Its practically impossible to have a back and forth game when your first priority is to rush the hell out of your opponent. His plan A was to win quickly with rush, and plan B was to force a low econ game which tend to be extremely boring. Game 1 for example.
I have only seen 1 game in my entire life where both players played off a low econ and forced a long game. That was a replay of Chojja vs some terran where Chojja 5 or 6 pools the terran which goes standard 12 rax.
I really dont want to have an argument over build orders, but I just wanted to add that its very hard for zerg to play pool first like Testie said if the Terran goes straight up 12 rax. It has always been a gamble for zerg whether or not to go hatch first to even the gameplay, or start off at a disadvantage and hopefully count on the terran to do something other than a standard build, which isnt common.
If yellow would go 9 pool, he would not be beaten that fast, although he would eventually lose. The problem is that nobody (especially zergs) can match Boxer in Low econ game Is not Boxer's fault.
On November 13 2004 12:45 SoL.Origin wrote: I think people don't understand something:
Boxer practiced 8 rax a lot, yellow practiced fast exp a lot. If yellow had gone 9 pool in the 2nd game, he would have to ignore his entire training and thus be thrown into a improvisation game, which boxer is known to be the best at, not to mention that boxer did practice that build a lot. He had much higher chance of winning by playing the way he played and trying to find a solution to his problem (stopping the rush).
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This man is golden. He speaks the truth.
Now the question is: what will happen to zvt? Is it only based on maps? Or whats up? There will never be perfectly balanced map. Can YellOw be the
i think this "unbalance" is a completely situational thing, its just situations that the players couldnt find a way to overcome and so they whine about an unbalance that doesnt exist. The only "unbalance" there is in this game is at the skill level point of view. If you put a terran from 6 years ago, no matter how good he was, against any half good protoss today, protoss would win just because terrans back then didnt even know how to block their choke. Back then, that was probably considered an "unbalance" but now that terrans know how to stop all common protoss rushes people say pvt is too hard at pro level.
... this is totally blown outta proportion.. it is very simple... they play to win and will do whatever it takes to achieve that... absolutely nothing wrong with what boxer did, he played and he won... why would you wanna "show respect" or "make it entertaning" if you risk losing. Winning is first, everything else is secondary. Sure, if you can win and do it with style and respect, then thats awsome, but winning is still winning with or without style and respect. If i knew a way to win every game, i'll use it over and over til the day i lose. I'm a Z player and yellow is one of my favs if not the most favorite, but i'm not going to sit here and rip boxer as if he did something wrong. He did absolutely nothing wrong.
Poor yellow, I hope he feels better soon and wins the KT-KTF league By the way, what are people's opinions on 4 or 5 pools compared to 7 or 8 rax + bunker rushes?
On November 14 2004 04:09 Hwoarang wrote: Poor yellow, I hope he feels better soon and wins the KT-KTF league By the way, what are people's opinions on 4 or 5 pools compared to 7 or 8 rax + bunker rushes?
On November 14 2004 04:09 Hwoarang wrote: Poor yellow, I hope he feels better soon and wins the KT-KTF league By the way, what are people's opinions on 4 or 5 pools compared to 7 or 8 rax + bunker rushes?
i agree with you,. But, it would be better, if they showed us those amazing games they played at 1.09, for example... but, anyway, likes you said, it was mental strat from BoxeR, and it'd function very well... nice post dude
On November 13 2004 12:45 SoL.Origin wrote: I think people don't understand something:
Boxer practiced 8 rax a lot, yellow practiced fast exp a lot. If yellow had gone 9 pool in the 2nd game, he would have to ignore his entire training and thus be thrown into a improvisation game, which boxer is known to be the best at, not to mention that boxer did practice that build a lot. He had much higher chance of winning by playing the way he played and trying to find a solution to his problem (stopping the rush).
This man is golden. He speaks the truth.
Now the question is: what will happen to zvt? Is it only based on maps? Or whats up? There will never be perfectly balanced map. Can YellOw be the
i think this "unbalance" is a completely situational thing, its just situations that the players couldnt find a way to overcome and so they whine about an unbalance that doesnt exist. The only "unbalance" there is in this game is at the skill level point of view. If you put a terran from 6 years ago, no matter how good he was, against any half good protoss today, protoss would win just because terrans back then didnt even know how to block their choke. Back then, that was probably considered an "unbalance" but now that terrans know how to stop all common protoss rushes people say pvt is too hard at pro level.
Meh. This 8rax rush is perfect though... On those certain maps where it can be executed, it WILL (should) be executed.
Then the problem is the maps, cuz, we all know that zerg can't operate on a pro level off of one base vs terran. Then toss gets fucked over. Then we need Bill to create a perfect map.
If Xellos/Nada/Midas/Goodfriend or any other top terrans start owning up with this strat 3-0 then we might have a problem. But wait thats not going to happen.
On November 14 2004 20:59 FreeMarine wrote: If Xellos/Nada/Midas/Goodfriend or any other top terrans start owning up with this strat 3-0 then we might have a problem. But wait thats not going to happen.
True.
And i wonder if BoxeR will keep on using this strat.
3-0'ing yellow in under 10 minutes. rofl. that's fucking godly. i can't believe people player hate him.
The first game itself was 15 minutes, the second was 4 minutes, the third 3 minutes, so it really took him ~22 minutes. Anyway the probability of him getting close positions on all 3 games was 30% (or .67^3), and combined with yellows unlucky scouting in the first two, I'd say he was pretty lucky to pull it off three times. Still though if anyone was going to do it, it would have to be boxer.
I just watched the games. These games officially make boxer the best player of all time. Period.
I think it was mensrea who said "boxer is an alien sent to our time from the future to show humans how to play starcraft." wow.. sheer brilliance. i almost teared watching these games. props...
The thing about the 8Rax Rush is that it totaly obliterates Zergs previous best option, 12 Hat. In the long long ago time Zerg players realized they needed 2 bases of econ to stand up to BSBA Builds from the ever growing terran. The power of infantry and techery (Meds/Stims/Range/bats) OWned up on Zerg.
The Zerg discoverd 12 hat 12 pool and they could have up enough force to beat back the terran onslaught without getting macro screwd.
Now Terran has 8 Rax - Bunks which obviously beats ass on any attempt at fast expo. So Zerg must learn to deal with it by adopting a nicer paced 9 pool-ish build
On November 14 2004 08:34 ItchReliever wrote: i never knew why they made scvs more powerful, somebody explain?
simple SCV is the only worker unit that doenst have reneretion (there reparation cost $$). If SCV has 50 hp or even better 40 hp. my scouting probe would kill at least one scv and probably even 2 without much micro. Moreover, SCV are vunerable while they are building. Btw. Drones get back 100% when they morp.... I bet you know that. Anyway I think there hp should get down to 55 hp
Oh plz blizzard help zergs! come on, increase bunkers cost or bunkers build time, or hmm give the zerg maphack for the first 2minutes, or make an alert sound when terran begins to build a barrak... BLACK SHEEP WALL is a nice counter to boxer's strategy, yes?
On November 15 2004 03:16 theburningred wrote: Oh plz blizzard help zergs! come on, increase bunkers cost or bunkers build time, or hmm give the zerg maphack for the first 2minutes, or make an alert sound when terran begins to build a barrak... BLACK SHEEP WALL is a nice counter to boxer's strategy, yes?
Zerg maphack for the first 2 minutes -> 4 drone rush gg ?