I'm aware, but you might want to edit/spoiler your earlier post, some people only watch one live and then watch the other later.
How will the fact the an anonymous DT raiding a base spoil a game?
edit your post already.
if someone hasn't watched the other series yet any details about the match will spoil the game "spoiling" doesn't just mean giving away the winner and loser.
The fact they have three decent zergs already is impressive for a PL team, adding a fourth is kinda overkill IMO, there Terran lineup is fairly weak right now, they should have drafted a terran.
(Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): If you have free time
Pretty uneventful match up. If you want to watch the rookies play, then I guess you really don't have any other games to watch so you can watch this one.
On May 10 2011 13:33 Kaal wrote: Very nice scourge snipes by Byul.
KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN :D
Edit:
The fact they have three decent zergs already is impressive for a PL team, adding a fourth is kinda overkill IMO, there Terran lineup is fairly weak right now, they should have drafted a terran.
We have decent zergs?
Chavi and Juni almost never win, and great's winning remains a source of bewilderment to me since he never looks like he's playing well.
On May 10 2011 13:33 Kaal wrote: Very nice scourge snipes by Byul.
KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN :D
Edit:
The fact they have three decent zergs already is impressive for a PL team, adding a fourth is kinda overkill IMO, there Terran lineup is fairly weak right now, they should have drafted a terran.
We have decent zergs?
Chavi and Juni almost never win, and great's winning remains a source of bewilderment to me since he never looks like he's playing well.
I would even go out on a limb here and say Khan's Zerg lineup is currently the worst yes, worse than even SKT or ACE..
On May 10 2011 13:46 whiterabb1t wrote: Maybe its the glasses. Stork should go back to wearing them. He looks too old now, He should at least one gold before he retires
On May 10 2011 13:46 whiterabb1t wrote: Maybe its the glasses. Stork should go back to wearing them. He looks too old now, He should at least one gold before he retires
incruit osl dude.
Dude, i said before he retires. It means from now until then dude
On May 10 2011 13:46 whiterabb1t wrote: Maybe its the glasses. Stork should go back to wearing them. He looks too old now, He should at least one gold before he retires
incruit osl dude.
Dude, i said before he retires. It means from now until then dude
Generally when people say before he retires, it means before he retires, not from now until he reires.
On May 10 2011 13:46 whiterabb1t wrote: Maybe its the glasses. Stork should go back to wearing them. He looks too old now, He should at least one gold before he retires
incruit osl dude.
Dude, i said before he retires. It means from now until then dude
Generally when people say before he retires, it means before he retires, not from now until he reires.
What you say is also one of the many interpretations of it. Language has a lot of arbitrariness in it. Regardless, judging from the denotata, you have to trust the source when he says that's what he means because it works that way too.
Anyway this is really small of you kids. Lets watch BW now shall we...
On May 10 2011 13:46 whiterabb1t wrote: Maybe its the glasses. Stork should go back to wearing them. He looks too old now, He should at least one gold before he retires
incruit osl dude.
Dude, i said before he retires. It means from now until then dude
Generally when people say before he retires, it means before he retires, not from now until he reires.
What you say is also one of the many interpretations of it. Language has a lot of arbitrariness in it. Regardless, judging from the denotata, you have to trust the source when he says that's what he means because it works that way too.
Anyway this is really small of you kids. Lets watch BW now shall we...
Yeah but there's this thing called communicating clearly
99% of people would say one more gold before he retires, having "before he retires" meaning... "before he retires."
If you decide to make the words mean something else, you can't expect other people to understand you.
On May 10 2011 13:46 whiterabb1t wrote: Maybe its the glasses. Stork should go back to wearing them. He looks too old now, He should at least one gold before he retires
incruit osl dude.
Dude, i said before he retires. It means from now until then dude
Generally when people say before he retires, it means before he retires, not from now until he reires.
What you say is also one of the many interpretations of it. Language has a lot of arbitrariness in it. Regardless, judging from the denotata, you have to trust the source when he says that's what he means because it works that way too.
Anyway this is really small of you kids. Lets watch BW now shall we...
Yeah but there's this thing called communicating clearly
99% of people would say one more gold before he retires, having "before he retires" meaning... "before he retires."
If you decide to make the words mean something else, you can't expect other people to understand you.
Obviously you don't know linguistics that much. Anyway, lets watch BW now shall we...
On May 10 2011 13:33 Kaal wrote: Very nice scourge snipes by Byul.
KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN :D
Edit:
The fact they have three decent zergs already is impressive for a PL team, adding a fourth is kinda overkill IMO, there Terran lineup is fairly weak right now, they should have drafted a terran.
We have decent zergs?
Chavi and Juni almost never win, and great's winning remains a source of bewilderment to me since he never looks like he's playing well.
On May 10 2011 13:33 Kaal wrote: Very nice scourge snipes by Byul.
KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN :D
Edit:
The fact they have three decent zergs already is impressive for a PL team, adding a fourth is kinda overkill IMO, there Terran lineup is fairly weak right now, they should have drafted a terran.
We have decent zergs?
Chavi and Juni almost never win, and great's winning remains a source of bewilderment to me since he never looks like he's playing well.
...well, this time, I do understand how great won
His play actually didn't look all that bad today, surprisingly.
siege done, reality sieges behind the wall jaehoon pulls 2 goons back but continues to bombard with the other 3 until reality adjusts his tank positioning
jaehoon uses a shuttle to drop 4 zealots at 4, destroys a few tanks and attacks from the north with goons but reality brings in more forces and stops that attack
On May 10 2011 14:38 xxpack09 wrote: WTF observer with precognition!
Switches to FPVOD RIGHT before Reality scans!
well reality was building his scanners...
jaehoon's probe at 12 still hasn't dropped his 4th nex
reality moving forwards up the right narrow choke with vulture/tank jaehoon trying to pick off a few units as he withdraws with a small amount of goons
jaehoon makes a try at engaging across the E hexside but pulls back from overwhelming fire he breaks his own pylon wall at 2 so his goons have an escape route
reality now starting to mine minerals from 10.5 too
jaehoon taking full advantage of the ground pathing on this map but reality uses imba repair to stop his CC at 4 from falling WTF jaehoon just about caught reality's tanks alone without any escort just sieging up but pulls his ground army BACK instead of engaging at least with his zealots
now his carriers being chased across open ground by goliaths but the manage to disengage temporarily
jaehoon has to start distance-mining from his mostly depleted nat still totally unaware of reality's base at 10.5, but is now sending an observer that way
reality moving his army towards jaehoon's nat again
MBC in such a weird position these days, the general mediocre parts of the team really bringing in the results, but at the same time now sea is losing all the time instead, making it just as hard to win a match as it was before people started doing well
Jaehoon's carrier micro was impressive but reality threw a won game away. For a while there it he was up 3 bases to 1 yet he kept trading mining bases for empty ones until nothing was left but carriers and goliaths, and that wasn't enough. With a lead like that he could have gone ghosts and still probably won, but no.
tyson's odd scout pattern means only now he scouts turn's wall, and has to turn away ignorant and with turn building his CC in his main he has no idea what turn is up to
landed CC at 5 finishes the scanner and scans but tyson's goons picking off a bunch of tanks but there's more tanks than goons and tyson's attack is ended
arbiter with goons attacking scvs at turn's 3rd with just 3 scanners, could be pretty effective 2 scans burned, tyson backing off tyson adding 5th? gate
tyson moving down to attack again, just 3 goons with his arbiter scan, one goon lost
turn makes it all the way to tyson's nat tyson freezes 5 vultures and a goliath now moving under cover of cloaked freezes another 2 tanks but turn moving in with reinforcing vultures
Damn Turn, now that your attack failed you gotta sit back and get yourself a big blob of metal, and expand. Don't keep throwing away small armies like this
turn moving across the center of the map with a very vulture-heavy army 6 units frozen and another tank frozen turn's army was way too small to move out, now surrounded by tyson's units again, turn turns around his reinforcing units
turn still on 3 bases. tyson getting his fifth. i thought this was over for tyson earlier in the game but he's doing really well.. clears up turn's units in the middle of the map
Stork getting cannons well behind the forge, Hyun pressuring with dras, no starport from Stork I believe? 3 gates added at nat. 4 canons total for Stork but he going to lose the front gate.
It's hard to tell how much Stork saw in that game. Hyun didn't have lair and was barely droning at all. Stork could maybe have snuck one of his zealots into the third to take a look when he was chasing the hydras across the whole map, although I feel like that would be pretty hard to do. Still, he needed to figure out that cannons were the right call there because had Stork survived he would have won that game easily.
Would hyun technically be able to keep up production of pure hydras until being mined out? i.e. wondering whether he would be able to continue production indefinitely with just the drones he had...if so... then just
This is where game sense for a matchup plays a huge part I suppose. This is much harder for PvZ because of the lack of scouting info. That's why Bisu's early probing with Zealots and later on Corsairs are so valuable (unlike others who enjoy spamming Corsairs to take out OLs). He generally knows how many cannons to make to prevent busts like this (taking into account his Zealot micro). Once you stop the Hydra bust, you can generally attack the third with impunity, teching to templars at the same time. The key, I think, is the Zealot speed timing.
Anyway, good game by Hyun. Hopefully Stork'll bounce back (and I hope the coaching improves so Stork gets PvTs/PvPs to give him more confidence).
On May 10 2011 15:45 radadaundandan wrote: Storm was invented long time ago.
So he should've built LESS units, in order to have better held that off?
-_-
what he needed to do was build more cannons while teching to storm lol.. Stork went for the mass speedlot choice which only works vs fake 3hatch Hydra
I agree, I already said this in my other post on that page.
He was hedging his bets, while Hyun laid all his cards down at once.
And for the people saying "not enough scouting information", it's not like Stork wasn't trying to scout. I guess he could've sent out 2 probes?
How annoying though, having to send out 2 probes every damn PvZ just to make sure it's not 3 hatch hydra
x.x
edit:
This is where game sense for a matchup plays a huge part I suppose. This is much harder for PvZ because of the lack of scouting info. That's why Bisu's early probing with Zealots and later on Corsairs are so valuable (unlike others who enjoy spamming Corsairs to take out OLs). He generally knows how many cannons to make to prevent busts like this (taking into account his Zealot micro). Once you stop the Hydra bust, you can generally attack the third with impunity, teching to templars at the same time. The key, I think, is the Zealot speed timing.
Hahaha, Stork's zealot speed timing was fine, that's not the key at all. And it's not like scouting with the corsair is some magic thing that only Bisu does, any Protoss who doesn't scout with the 1st corsair gets routinely called a scrub on TL. Stork also knows how many cannons to make (vs hydra all-ins, I mean... not against JD lings apparently >.>), but he was worried about another fake hydra all in and thus he built a few extra cannons but also a few extra gateways. If he commits purely to cannons he probably wins that game, but he also probably loses the one where it was a fake and Zerg is soon on 4 droned-up bases.
And you can't "attack the 3rd with impunity while teching to templars at the same time". If you cannon up, the Z just amasses hydras and you can't even get out without storm.
edit edit:
Stork should have played it more safe
Yeah, I wonder what would have happened if he didn't get over-confident when his zealot legs kicked in and stayed at home.
aghhhh damn you thermo problem set. You made me miss Hyun 2-0'ing Stork...
I love the random and unexpected fashion in which Hyun delivers results. Sad to see Sea lose, but it's great to see MBC win in spite of it. Also I'm glad to see MBC not playing Saint. He is just hopeless lately, and is not nearly as loveable as Jaehoon.
IMO If stork wouldve stayed home continue producing z's, built some more canon, and got some storms he would've won. There was no drones mining at 3rd.
I think stork plays great but lacks game sense in pvz.
On May 10 2011 15:57 Turbovolver wrote:And for the people saying "not enough scouting information", it's not like Stork wasn't trying to scout. I guess he could've sent out 2 probes?
How annoying though, having to send out 2 probes every damn PvZ just to make sure it's not 3 hatch hydra
Agree with all your other points, though Stork did send two probes. The initial scout was chased off after not spotting a lair (and not spotting the hydra den at the nat iirc) and a second was sent. The second one definitely spotted the den but I guess he still hadn't confirmed whether it was fake or all-in. Maybe he needed to get into the third and spot that it wasn't mining.
Hahaha, Stork's zealot speed timing was fine, that's not the key at all. And it's not like scouting with the corsair is some magic thing that only Bisu does, any Protoss who doesn't scout with the 1st corsair gets routinely called a scrub on TL. Stork also knows how many cannons to make (vs hydra all-ins, I mean... not against JD lings apparently >.>), but he was worried about another fake hydra all in and thus he built a few extra cannons but also a few extra gateways. If he commits purely to cannons he probably wins that game, but he also probably loses the one where it was a fake and Zerg is soon on 4 droned-up bases.
And you can't "attack the 3rd with impunity while teching to templars at the same time". If you cannon up, the Z just amasses hydras and you can't even get out without storm.
He'd have a better chance of coming back from an economic disadvantage though, than risking a Hydra all-in. The speed timing of Stork was fine (not saying it was bad), but it was too little too late cause the cannons went down while he didn't have storm yet.
I'm not saying only Bisu scouts with early Corsairs, but he's the one who does it consistently, often ignoring one or two OLs just to make sure of the Zerg's tech. That's where the sense for the matchup comes in, because sometimes Protoss just makes blind guesses on tech, instead of forcing the issue with early Zealot aggression just so there's a chance to scout with probes, Zeals, or Corsairs.
Finally, attacking the third with impunity presupposes map control with a Corsair fleet and Zealots moving around the map. If the Zerg counters, you can flank. If the Zerg chases your Zealots, you buy the time needed for Storm and Templars. Either way, you dictate the engagements. The other option would be, as you said, to cannon up, but a strong Hydra bust with a few lings takes care of that more often than not.
On May 10 2011 16:23 Caladbolg wrote:Finally, attacking the third with impunity presupposes map control with a Corsair fleet and Zealots moving around the map. If the Zerg counters, you can flank. If the Zerg chases your Zealots, you buy the time needed for Storm and Templars. Either way, you dictate the engagements. The other option would be, as you said, to cannon up, but a strong Hydra bust with a few lings takes care of that more often than not.
Exactly, it presupposes map control with a corsair fleet, neither of which you will have if you are getting 3 hatch hydra all-in'd!!! You basically just listed a whole bunch of stuff about the way Bisu plays, regurgitating it without thinking about context - but Bisu wasn't getting 3 hatch all-in cheesed in those games! There is no way to "dictate the engagements" when you FFE and your opponent goes 3 hatch hydra.
And to that other guy talking about the probe scouts, I meant sending two probes at once the second time, so that he didn't have to spend all that time running around trying to get past the lings. The two probes would take different paths to the zerg base, obviously. Or for example, one could scout the third and see no drones, and hydras hatching...
Cheese him once, shame on you; cheese him twice, shame on him; all-in hydra bust him in the deciding ace match after already having cheesed him....+ Show Spoiler +
I can say only that 3 Hatch Hydra isn't generally an all-in opening. It allows a transition and often this is successful. See especially Alone vs. Stork @ Alternative. Or ZerO vs. Stork @ Circuit Breaker @ PDPop MSL. So, stop bashing Hyun, it's a normal opening, just too bad Stork can't defend its early aggression, but it's not necessary an all-in (though it's more risky than standard 3 hatch spire)
On May 10 2011 19:02 _Quasar_ wrote: I can say only that 3 Hatch Hydra isn't generally an all-in opening. It allows a transition and often this is successful. See especially Alone vs. Stork @ Alternative. Or ZerO vs. Stork @ Circuit Breaker @ PDPop MSL. So, stop bashing Hyun, it's a normal opening, just too bad Stork can't defend its early aggression, but it's not necessary an all-in (though it's more risky than standard 3 hatch spire)
We know your a zerg fan but what you saw today was ALL-IN. I remember zero vs stork. Zero drone whored like crazy after about a single control group of hydras were produced. In the ace match today Hyun was on hatchery tech and did not make a single drone as soon as hydra production began....
Hyun was under a lot of pressure today. Sea is having some problems right now so there was a good chance that MBC might be 0-2 down by the time it got to Hyun's game. And then when they were really 0-2 down, Hyun had to face Stork. All this while, Hyun also knew he was going to have to play the Ace match (that was the plan according to Tyson) if it got that far, regardless of whether Stork appeared or not. Had he dropped either game, MBC would have lost. So you can imagine how he felt after he won the Ace match.
Exactly, it presupposes map control with a corsair fleet, neither of which you will have if you are getting 3 hatch hydra all-in'd!!! You basically just listed a whole bunch of stuff about the way Bisu plays, regurgitating it without thinking about context - but Bisu wasn't getting 3 hatch all-in cheesed in those games! There is no way to "dictate the engagements" when you FFE and your opponent goes 3 hatch hydra.
Again read the post. The attack on the third and map control come AFTER stopping the Hydra bust, which is primarily dependent on whether or not you've scouted the Zerg's tech and plopped down additional cannons/prepared for the bust. My main point was on scouting: scout the tech diligently, scout the drone saturation. If there's a hydra den, check if there's a spire. Build cannons/army on the basis of the info. Stork scouted with 2 probes, yes, but it was clearly not enough to know whether the bust was coming. I simply suggested he adopt the scouting patterns of Bisu. This is based off all the times I've seen Protoss (including Bisu I might add) get manhandled by a bust after failing to check the signs for the all-in due to a lack of scouting.
Anyway this is getting off topic. GJ to MBC on the snipes.