[SPL] Grand Final: SK Telecom T1 vs KT Rolster - Page 375

Like you mentioned, the reverse ramp and difficulty in taking a third are big big ones. In python(especially tvp)you can see this as terran either has to get 4 fax or more before pushing to their third or grab an island instead or resort to 6 fact timing push. However like you said again the game ended before this happened for it to even matter.

In this game the reverse ramp did play a huge role. It forced flash to do 2 rax to have enough rines to bust out. There are some instances where you can go 2 rax vs a proxy gate but usually all u need is one rax and just have to micro ur rines in between ur sim city buildings, even more so with progamer micro. Even vs 2 gate zealots you don't need 2 rax...you just build a bunker near ur rax and factory so that when the zealots try to target ur scv making the factory, the zealot will get hit plenty of times while u cancel ur scv and send another one to continue building the factory. All u need to do is get one vulture out and that rush is done.

And of course most of the fighting happened on level ground...it's because flash had enough rines to bust out due to him going 2 rax in the first place! I don't think u understand something. 2 rax isn't even considered standard in TvZ anymore. The fact that he was forced to start off with 2 rax is huge.

Your right. He did get forced into it and that's my point. Had it been a regular map without reverse ramps, flash could've just stayed at 1 rax and micro'ed that easily and just do his standard 1 rax fe into vulture tank ultra-turtle macro mode and who knows what would've happened.

You know what I think? I think that the proxy gateway in tvp is not that good of a strategy in the pro level anymore xcept maybe in two player maps but even then pro's will expect it like flash did in this game. They put so much emphasis in their sim city vs zealot and marine micro vs zealot that the toss will be put too far behind if the zeal does no real damage and since the gate is close-by, it will die and toss will be very behind. Honestly, I haven't seen a toss do a proxy gate in tvp in a long time. The fact that bisu(the best toss in the world)used it on this map just proves how strong it is on this map and former progamer(now announcer TheMarine)along with the other announcer mentioned this as well at the beginning of the game when his probe came out.

In this game flash had enough marines to bust out. But say he did stay at 1 rax. Can't bisu just keep his zealots on high ground and fight only on the ramp where there's a chance marine fire will miss becuz of the 70% ramp miss fire thingy? He then sends the zeals that lost their shields in the back to regenerate their shield while sending the healthy zealots to do this over and over again. Flash would've only had 4 rines instead of 8(or however many he had when he busted out). There's no way he's busting out of that. Then bisu will have dragoons on high ground too which will take flash forever to bust out and land his CC. I mean this is just what i think might have happened.

If you can't come to an agreement that the map didn't play any role(not even a little bit)in forcing flash to 2 rax which in turn made flash do a MnM build(which bisu knew could possibly come and made reaver)then we really can't go anywhere with this argument.

SK knew the map was imbalanced..thats y they picked it so that flash wouldn't come out in ace, KT's coach knew it was imbalanced, bisu knew it was imabalanced and chose the strongest strategy to use on that map, FLASH knew it was imbalanced but still wanted to come out and take on all the burden. Even the announcers including TheMarine said that at the start of the game.

The fact that you can tell me that I didn't examine the game and I'm just blaming the map just appauls me. That tvp was far from any standard tvp. All I saw from that game was flash doing his best to overcome all odds one step at a time:
1) He knows bisu's gonna proxy--->sends scv out to confirm it with his eyes 100%
2) Builds 2 rax to have any hope of taking charge of his ramp
3) Next step is to kill the gateway outside my nat
4) Uh oh Bisu has a 3rd, I have to go out and do something because the longer I wait, the more preparation he will have vs my MnM to get high templars with storm and mass units due to his 3rd expo
5) (Comes out but sees bisu has more units than him) Uh oh he has more units than I do but I can't just sit in my base and let that third expo of his continue running and outmacro me, what do i do? I know, I can use that tight little area behind his main to my advantage so that even if he has more units than me, he'll lose way more units than usual trying to bust that than if I were to fight him on open ground and flank me from all sides.
6) etc..etc..

and btw, I never said map imbalance was the sole reason that flash lost, i said it played a large role in his loss, which is just my OPINION and the coach's opinion as well.

I hope I did a little better job at elaborating this time as I agree my last post was alittle vague to just say "map imbalance" and call it a day.

edit: Man lol..took me almost an hour to type this up. I'm kind of on limited time right now because of schoolwork so if I don't reply for awhile it's not cuz im ignoring u, but send me another reply and I'll try to get back to u as soon as possible(Or if I decide to wanna procrastinate again -_-)