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On January 03 2017 06:03 iamho wrote: I think Sea will get rolled by Best/Hero, he didn't look so good so much as Bisu looked bad.
I'd say Sea played pretty solid and calm, not exceptionally genius... I think it was Bisu playing bad more than anything. Sea had the appropriate responses to Bisu's bad play.
People seem to forget that all these players in the ro8 are all ex-pros or amateurs, anybody can win vs anyone, the potential is there. If you play bad and the other guy plays a solid game you are going to lose. Not taking credit away from Sea though, as I said, I think he played solidly.
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United States9627 Posts
On January 03 2017 06:03 iamho wrote: I think Sea will get rolled by Best/Hero, he didn't look so good so much as Bisu looked bad. Hero's ZvT isn't the best. Best has a good chance against him, hero is the underdog. Sea beat hero 3-2 in the last ASL btw.
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On January 02 2017 21:47 Letmelose wrote:Now that all the drama has pretty much settled down. Am I the only one who is a little concerned that Bisu's execution of large scale battles in PvT doesn't seem to have improved all that much after all these years? Bisu was maxed out at this point, and Sea was no where near maxed out at this point. + Show Spoiler +His early game dragoon micromanagement is good, his arbiter usage is good, but everything he is good at in PvT, it seems, exists purely for Bisu to reach the point where he mediocre large scale battling ability won't cost him the game. There are games from nearly ten years ago that has cleaner execution of large scale battles than what Bisu pulled off today. Bisu will never be able to overcome Flash if he doesn't know how and when to take on the terran army, and despite Bisu's mastery of other elements of the match-up, they always seem to mask this ever present weakness, instead of allowing him to reach an even higher level combined with solid large scale battling abilities. Bisu was subpar for all three games, but it was a combination of bad luck, poor form, and re-emergence of well known weaknesses in the match-up that seem to be embedded within him, that allowed this series to be so disappointing compared to the expectations.
This is why Bisu sucked ass at SC2. He has always had terrible large scale battle control and terrible decision making surrounding when and how to take late game engagements.
If you inserted Stork's control and decision making into Bisu you'd have the perfect player.
Bisu looks terrible everytime he isn't ahead entering the late game.
The way he engages with those control groups of zealots in lategames... GAHHHHHHH. The guy never spreads out his zealots before engaging, and he almost never uses move command on zealots to get deep into the tank lines. Instead the 5-10 zealots farthest ahead always end up blocking about 30 zealots behind them. Typical Bisu engagement control.
The guy can multitask 10 different locations at once, but can't be bothered to learn how to spread out one single army before engaging a large battle.
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On January 03 2017 06:56 LaLuSh wrote: The way he engages with those control groups of zealots in lategames... GAHHHHHHH. The guy never spreads out his zealots before engaging, and he almost never uses move command on zealots to get deep into the tank lines. Instead the 5-10 zealots farthest ahead always end up blocking about 30 zealots behind them. Typical Bisu engagement control.
I know a lot of people meme about the "lol he 1A'd, 2A'd, 3A'd and won" but that's kinda exactly what it looked like. I am not bitter or hating on protoss players at all.
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On January 02 2017 23:51 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 22:56 Miragee wrote: @Letmelose: PvT was always Bisu's "weak" match up because of that. He couldn't play carrier for shit and he was bad at large scale battles. To be fair, it's a bit unfair to ask him to improve over his kespa skills when most players' skill, except for a few amateurs and B-Teamers, decreased compared to that era. Which is only logical of course, with no coaches, no training schedule etc. Large scale PvT battles are an integral part of the game, and has defined the success Samsung Khan protosses had in the match-up to a large degree. Bisu was given the cheat code to win the match-up by the some of the best masterminds in PvT in the form of PuSan in MBC Game HERO, and BeSt in SK Telecom T1, and has used his impressive dragoon micro-management to carry out these abusive build orders (just like zergs with impressive mutalisk micro-management can get away with some of the greediest build paths), and has used arbiters to great effect, but his inability to win in games where he cannot just recall the terran to death, or win large scale battles with 1a2a3a4a with one or two stasis fields, is basically the equivalent of zergs who can perform great mutalisk micro-management to reach hive before the terran knows what even hit him, but cannot handle the demands of handling large scale zergling, lurker, defiler, and scourge combinations. You know who used to have great mutalisk micro-management, but couldn't for the life of him handle late-game hive tech army? Shine. It's a testament of Bisu's other great qualities such as ceaseless unit production, immaculate early dragoon micro-management, and great arbiter usage that he had such success in PvT, but it's almost unacceptable how bad Bisu is at this fundamental part of the match-up. He literally attack-moved his entire army, paid almost zero attention to his shuttle, used stasis field once, and then drag moved what remained of his zealot army towards the siege tanks. It's the kind of stuff you'd expect from a bad protoss player, not Bisu, who creates such mass devastation in multiple communities, Korean and English, whenever he falls short of the incredible expectations set for him. He doesn't need to hone his craft to the level of peak-form JangBi, just not be so weak at this particular skillset of the game that all it takes is a bad day to create this level of atrocitiy that made him lose as a maxed out protoss versus a terran who was at 140 supplies, and didn't even get any clutch EMPs in during the battle.
I know and I agree. I just said that it's unfair to assume he should have improved when he barely improved during the kespa era. However, he should have improved this stuff during those days. I guess the coaches were rather pushing his strengths in TvP, which made him a great sniper against calibers like Flash for example, instead of trying to increase his basics. That's the only reason I can come up with... The loss of the shuttle is another story btw. It shows that it was not his day because usually he pays an enormous amount of attention to his shuttles. I think we all remember that game where he controlled 2 shuttles at the same time to harass with reavers. Any other protoss would have lost at least one shuttle within the first 15-30 seconds of the harass attempt. It also shows that his level of skill isn't on the level it was during the kespa era. He does a lot of blunders he didn't do during that era, even when he was in a slump.
To be fair btw., game 2 and 3 weren't decided by the miss-management of the lategame army. In game 2 he threw himself into a tough spot because of it but he could have defended the push easily with the next engagement if he didn't recall his remaining army. Game 3 was just him being unlucky with his probes spacing out.
On January 03 2017 06:56 LaLuSh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 21:47 Letmelose wrote:Now that all the drama has pretty much settled down. Am I the only one who is a little concerned that Bisu's execution of large scale battles in PvT doesn't seem to have improved all that much after all these years? Bisu was maxed out at this point, and Sea was no where near maxed out at this point. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpbgA_kb3zQ His early game dragoon micromanagement is good, his arbiter usage is good, but everything he is good at in PvT, it seems, exists purely for Bisu to reach the point where he mediocre large scale battling ability won't cost him the game. There are games from nearly ten years ago that has cleaner execution of large scale battles than what Bisu pulled off today. Bisu will never be able to overcome Flash if he doesn't know how and when to take on the terran army, and despite Bisu's mastery of other elements of the match-up, they always seem to mask this ever present weakness, instead of allowing him to reach an even higher level combined with solid large scale battling abilities. Bisu was subpar for all three games, but it was a combination of bad luck, poor form, and re-emergence of well known weaknesses in the match-up that seem to be embedded within him, that allowed this series to be so disappointing compared to the expectations. This is why Bisu sucked ass at SC2. He has always had terrible large scale battle control and terrible decision making surrounding when and how to take late game engagements. If you inserted Stork's control and decision making into Bisu you'd have the perfect player. Bisu looks terrible everytime he isn't ahead entering the late game. The way he engages with those control groups of zealots in lategames... GAHHHHHHH. The guy never spreads out his zealots before engaging, and he almost never uses move command on zealots to get deep into the tank lines. Instead the 5-10 zealots farthest ahead always end up blocking about 30 zealots behind them. Typical Bisu engagement control. The guy can multitask 10 different locations at once, but can't be bothered to learn how to spread out one single army before engaging a large battle.
The part about the lategame is not entirely true. He looked good in lategame PvZ. Probably because the army handling in lategame PvZ is much different from PvT.
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TLADT24917 Posts
His late game PvT engagement leaves much to be desired. What makes me sad is the fact that all he had to do was quickly spread and attack that army. He would've easily taken that engagement and then had more freedom to expand and do more harass etc... Then when things went wrong and the push was near his natural, he decides to recall (not a terrible option if he had a chance of at least holding at home) and loses the remainder of his army which with good control, could've saved his natural.
Let's not get into the last game lol.
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I expected Sea to give him a challenge, but not roll over him. But I'm happy that it was Sea who was responsible for the upset of this round. Sea always wears his emotions on his sleave, with his semi-embarrased grin whenever something unexpected happens. It's hard not to like him.
I hope he gets to play Best. That would be a epic PvT. Regardless, Sea is one of the current masters of both TvZ and TvP, so it will be a great semifinal regardless.
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EXPECTED SO MUCH MORE OF BISU
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Terrans are looking so prepared for these Arbiter Recalls. Maybe P's should be focusing more on templars and shuttlework?
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I am happy that Sea has won. Its always nice to see an underdog win in a big tournament. If the winner was already known beforehand the matches would be very boring indeed. That being said it would have been nice to get all 5 matches of the Bo5. A 3-0 feels like such a waste of our precious precious BW. Especially with high production value like the ASL.
Sea played really solid though. It seemed to me like he always read the situation perfectly and did the right moves at the right time. He never seemed to have made any mistakes at all. (part of that is probably due to bisu not playing at his usual level)
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On January 03 2017 08:49 RPGabe wrote: Terrans are looking so prepared for these Arbiter Recalls. Maybe P's should be focusing more on templars and shuttlework?
Yeah, if the protoss flies the arbiter over spidermines on the map and then maneuvers it through the terran base for 30 second because he is hesitant to commit to a recall on the already positioned army in the terran base but then still commits to it, then yes, the terran is looking prepared. This kind of arbiter play doesn't worked and has never worked. It has brought us some of the most glorious arbiter fails in the history of BW though.
The bottom line is: The arbiter is an insane unit and recall is one of the most powerful spells in the game. However, if an idiot handles the control panel, even the greatest technology doesn't work as intended.
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Japan11285 Posts
Me while watching the probes dance away in game 3
:O
Well, this is fucking disappointing. Congrats Sea.
On topic of large-scale PvT engagements, I think only Free and JangBi actually spread their armies relatively effectively during the post-KeSPA era.
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On January 02 2017 20:13 FlaShFTW wrote:Just for Bisudagger <3 paintbucket bisu?
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Bisu played so bad that it almost looked like he threw the games. Missing those three vults in the first game and recalling into mines in second game when he needed to hold the push.. third game probe drill didnt make his play look like himself at all either. No more real competition for Flash left in this asl..
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The results were very surprising! I liked how the games played out, but nothing Bisu did not look on top of his game. Starting with game one his dragoons did not move after the vultures ran by the pylon; showing that Bisu was not watching his minimap. So that is why I don't think he was on top of his game.
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I know and I agree. I just said that it's unfair to assume he should have improved when he barely improved during the kespa era. However, he should have improved this stuff during those days. I guess the coaches were rather pushing his strengths in TvP, which made him a great sniper against calibers like Flash for example, instead of trying to increase his basics. That's the only reason I can come up with... The loss of the shuttle is another story btw. It shows that it was not his day because usually he pays an enormous amount of attention to his shuttles. I think we all remember that game where he controlled 2 shuttles at the same time to harass with reavers. Any other protoss would have lost at least one shuttle within the first 15-30 seconds of the harass attempt. It also shows that his level of skill isn't on the level it was during the kespa era. He does a lot of blunders he didn't do during that era, even when he was in a slump.
To be fair btw., game 2 and 3 weren't decided by the miss-management of the lategame army. In game 2 he threw himself into a tough spot because of it but he could have defended the push easily with the next engagement if he didn't recall his remaining army. Game 3 was just him being unlucky with his probes spacing out.
Bisu had the benefit of playing with some of the most brilliant minds in the match-up PvT, which coupled with his fantastic abilities as a Brood War player in general (non-stop production of units, great small scale micro-management, and the ability to execute certain build paths without skipping a single beat), allowed him to gain great success in the match-up, but his qualities outside of that was so lackluster at times (I won't even mention how he used carriers).
All it took was an off day for him to throw away massive leads by literally attack moving his entire army and hoping for the best, which would come back to bite him on the ass even by players who weren't that good, or were way past their prime such as Iris, which was the reason he lost his final game by literally throwing away his army to defeat himself in what was his final KeSPA officiated best of five series ever.
+ Show Spoiler +
After Flash overcame him in terms of skill, Bisu was only able to defeat him in a ProLeague setting where SK Telecom T1 had three separate cards ready for action (FanTaSy, BeSt, and Bisu), while Flash had to prepare for all three. FanTaSy and BeSt were sent to dispose of Flash ten times in their ProLeague careers, while Bisu was used more sparingly, and used only on maps that was heavily biased against terrans in TvP (Neo Chain Reaction, and Aztec). Even then, Bisu had to rely heavily on abusive builds that maximized his god-like small scale zealot micro-management skills and multi-tasking to gain a head start early on. Hardly indicative of how he mastered the match-up, rather, an indication of the luxuries he enjoyed as a member of SK Telecom T1 who had several routes of sniping Flash.
Upsets happen all the time. All it takes is a smartly planned series, and a series of unfortunate events that can lead to insurmountable leads for the player of lesser skill. We've seen it happen before, where the better player does reasonably well given the circumstances given to him, but cannot perform to the degree where he can overcome the opposing player both in terms of skill, and the advantages gained by the other player through luck, preparation, or map imbalance.
Lady luck was definitely on Sea's side yesterday, and this series definitely isn't indicative of Bisu's skill, however, even on an incredibly bad day, you have to make the most of what you have. Game two is just one of those WTF moments that leaves so much to be desired, and it wasn't one of the games where the circumstances were beyond Bisu's control.
All it takes is for Bisu to not attack move his maxed out army and praying it all works out, and we have a game four at our hands. Even after all the bad luck he has, Bisu is now facing Sea on Benzene, a map Sea thinks is impossible to beat a great protoss like Bisu in a straight-up macro-management game. Even after all the bad luck, the build order deficits, and all the minor mistakes that we don't often see from Bisu, we still probably would have seen a full five set series, if Bisu didn't go full retard mode, and made an execution error that has been popping up every now and again whenever he feels like attack moving is the way to win versus top level terran players.
It's okay to lose 0-3 to a player of Sea's calibre under certain contexts, shit happens. Under the unfortunate circumstances seen from yesterday's series, we saw how badly Bisu's weaknesses in the match-up can manifest themselves and ruin not only Bisu's chances of a five game series, but our expectations of a competitive series. That was what I was pointing out. I don't even need him to have the skills of some of gods of the battlefield, just not attack move his entire army like a 40 APM newb and expect to win.
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Fuck yeah go Sea
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It's not just that Bisu played bad... Let's remember the round of 16! Sea's TvP looks amazing right now.
Now, is that 2 base arbiter rush something that protosses are doing every game these days? I haven't followed BW after Kespa and it's really weird to me.
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United States9627 Posts
On January 03 2017 11:39 byj wrote:paintbucket bisu? Its like a bucket for tears
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Is someone going to make a thread for the Ro8 match between BeSt and hero in a few hours?
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