Afreeca Starleague Season 2
Casters & Hosts
Streams
Afreeca TV (BisuDagger and FlashFTW)
twitch TV (Tasteless/Rapid and Artosis)
ASL Youtube Channel with both English and Korean Stream
Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
FlaShFTW
United States9651 Posts
Afreeca Starleague Season 2Casters & HostsStreamsAfreeca TV (BisuDagger and FlashFTW) twitch TV (Tasteless/Rapid and Artosis) ASL Youtube Channel with both English and Korean Stream Matchups and MapsResultsRecommended Games | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9651 Posts
EDIT for polls: + Show Spoiler [Game 1] + + Show Spoiler [Game 2] + + Show Spoiler [Game 3] + + Show Spoiler [Game 4] + + Show Spoiler [Game 5] + | ||
usopsama
6502 Posts
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Hall0wed
United States8486 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
(Or is that just Sayle or someone calling in? Hard to tell, it's very echo-y.) | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9651 Posts
On January 02 2017 18:59 [[Starlight]] wrote: Whoa, did BisuDagger tazer FlashFTW to get 'im in the studio? lol shut up. | ||
Crunchums
United States11142 Posts
might as well watch some BW | ||
[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 02 2017 19:00 FlaShFTW wrote: Show nested quote + On January 02 2017 18:59 [[Starlight]] wrote: Whoa, did BisuDagger tazer FlashFTW to get 'im in the studio? lol shut up. kekekeke | ||
ahwala
Germany376 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
How could he lose? | ||
GTR
51133 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
That intro was so good. | ||
[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Eep. | ||
Heartland
Sweden24562 Posts
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Hall0wed
United States8486 Posts
On January 02 2017 19:05 thezanursic wrote: How could he lose? Do you have a video of where this came from? | ||
sixfour
England11060 Posts
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maze.
Germany1392 Posts
On January 02 2017 19:09 sixfour wrote: LET'S GO SEA LETS GO BISU | ||
[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Let's sea. | ||
thezanursic
5478 Posts
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sixfour
England11060 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
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zyce
United States649 Posts
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CUTtheCBC
Canada91 Posts
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CUTtheCBC
Canada91 Posts
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Crunchums
United States11142 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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Crunchums
United States11142 Posts
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Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
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Crunchums
United States11142 Posts
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Crunchums
United States11142 Posts
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sixfour
England11060 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States9651 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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Miragee
8290 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2103 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
Sea 3-0 incoming. | ||
Gustav_Wind
United States646 Posts
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Engdrew
United States890 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
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ThreeActPlay
United States249 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States9651 Posts
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2103 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5231 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
RIP BISU | ||
Xeln4g4
Italy1195 Posts
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Miragee
8290 Posts
On January 02 2017 19:26 Gustav_Wind wrote: I'm not sure the dragoon counter at Sea's nat was actually worth it. Maybe just cutting off rallied units, and then flank with those dragoons would have been better, instead of trading for SCVs? Yes, that would have been better. Or at least he could have pulled back his 3 goons once the tank sieged up. Instead he pulled them into a corner and the scvs killed them. 3 goons coming from behind in the engagement would have made all the difference. | ||
naneri
Kyrgyzstan165 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2103 Posts
On January 02 2017 19:30 Miragee wrote: Show nested quote + On January 02 2017 19:26 Gustav_Wind wrote: I'm not sure the dragoon counter at Sea's nat was actually worth it. Maybe just cutting off rallied units, and then flank with those dragoons would have been better, instead of trading for SCVs? Yes, that would have been better. Or at least he could have pulled back his 3 goons once the tank sieged up. Instead he pulled them into a corner and the scvs killed them. 3 goons coming from behind in the engagement would have made all the difference. He could have been more aggressive with the runby, Bisu wasted a lot of crucial time getting rid of the empty bunker and 2 vultures at the front of the natural. Had he camped the factories Sea wouldn't have been able to siege those 2 tanks in the choke between the main and the nat. | ||
Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
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okum
France5776 Posts
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GTR
51133 Posts
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bovienchien
Vietnam1142 Posts
On January 02 2017 19:10 maze. wrote: LETS GO BISU Let's go the both! I guess: Sea 3 - 0 Bisu :"> | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9651 Posts
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ThreeActPlay
United States249 Posts
On January 02 2017 19:34 GTR wrote: girls sign said 'bisu is better than my boyfriend' with said boyfriend next to her LOL LMAO god bless | ||
Crunchums
United States11142 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
On January 02 2017 19:34 GTR wrote: girls sign said 'bisu is better than my boyfriend' with said boyfriend next to her LOL lol too good | ||
Crunchums
United States11142 Posts
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Descent
1244 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
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Grettin
42379 Posts
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Crunchums
United States11142 Posts
push time | ||
Heartland
Sweden24562 Posts
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sixfour
England11060 Posts
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maybenexttime
Poland5231 Posts
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sixfour
England11060 Posts
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Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2675 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
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Miragee
8290 Posts
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maze.
Germany1392 Posts
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Crunchums
United States11142 Posts
bisu probably dead | ||
usopsama
6502 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States9651 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States9651 Posts
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
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Miragee
8290 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2103 Posts
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neilmellor
China49 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
Sea > BeSt Sea > Stork Sea becomes champion through tvp. | ||
phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
On January 02 2017 19:53 usopsama wrote: Sea > Bisu Sea > BeSt Sea > Stork Sea becomes champion through tvp? haha as if. Please bisu! | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9651 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24562 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2103 Posts
On January 02 2017 19:53 usopsama wrote: Sea > Bisu Sea > BeSt Sea > Stork Sea becomes champion through tvp? He'd need to get some TvT coaching from Last in order to beat Flash in the final ;d | ||
Duckvillelol
Australia1227 Posts
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ThreeActPlay
United States249 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
On January 02 2017 19:53 usopsama wrote: Sea > Bisu Sea > BeSt Sea > Stork Sea becomes champion through tvp? herO is still masivelly favored versus Protoss, but at this point I'm just not going to follow logic anymore. Fuck it, Guemchi beats Flash, beats Stork after, then 3-0s Sea in the finals | ||
[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Bisu looks shaken. Can he pull a reverse-sweep and escape with his hide? What a turn of events. So many ppl were thinking Bisu vs Flash in the Finals. | ||
tanngard
Norway1321 Posts
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Xeln4g4
Italy1195 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States9651 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
On January 02 2017 19:56 Xeln4g4 wrote: Bisu must keep on with expansion and just break Sea push, while adding expans., if he uses all the army he has no problems, he is superior player. But he can not affort to split army especially when his expansion come later than those of Sea. He split them in both games and lost both times. Please get it right now! | ||
Grettin
42379 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Xeln4g4
Italy1195 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
On January 02 2017 19:57 BigFan wrote: Show nested quote + On January 02 2017 19:56 Xeln4g4 wrote: Bisu must keep on with expansion and just break Sea push, while adding expans., if he uses all the army he has no problems, he is superior player. But he can not affort to split army especially when his expansion come later than those of Sea. He split them in both games and lost both times. Please get it right now! Random question Bigfan, why is your icon now a bird? | ||
usopsama
6502 Posts
3-0 incoming. | ||
[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:02 Qikz wrote: Show nested quote + On January 02 2017 19:57 BigFan wrote: On January 02 2017 19:56 Xeln4g4 wrote: Bisu must keep on with expansion and just break Sea push, while adding expans., if he uses all the army he has no problems, he is superior player. But he can not affort to split army especially when his expansion come later than those of Sea. He split them in both games and lost both times. Please get it right now! Random question Bigfan, why is your icon now a bird? it's my pet! lol | ||
ThreeActPlay
United States249 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:03 [[Starlight]] wrote: Does Bisu cheese to try to save his ass? And if so, does Sea anticipate it? I would've expected Sea to try to end with cheese | ||
Heartland
Sweden24562 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:04 Heartland wrote: OT ET? ? | ||
sixfour
England11060 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:02 usopsama wrote: 3-0 incoming. Smug/Confused Sea? | ||
Warfie
Norway2845 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
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sixfour
England11060 Posts
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Zera
Lithuania716 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24562 Posts
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GTR
51133 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Grettin
42379 Posts
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Crunchums
United States11142 Posts
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Miragee
8290 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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ThreeActPlay
United States249 Posts
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Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24562 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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ThreeActPlay
United States249 Posts
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Descent
1244 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States9651 Posts
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ZoW
United States3983 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
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Warfie
Norway2845 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Way to go SEA!!!! | ||
Lachrymose
Australia1928 Posts
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thezanursic
5478 Posts
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Muffloe
Sweden6061 Posts
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-NegativeZero-
United States2136 Posts
what the fuck | ||
FusionCutter
Canada974 Posts
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Crunchums
United States11142 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:06 Zera wrote: I can hear hundreds of liquibetters cries... i feel ultra-dumb i really bet on bisu to not crash out of the (replacement) osl in the ro8? should have learned by now | ||
Ziggy
South Korea2103 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:10 ZiggyPG wrote: could we go back to 2016 please? i dont think im ready for 2017 just yet It's all Artosis' fault. He said Bisu would win | ||
nurle
Norway308 Posts
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
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juvenal
2448 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States9651 Posts
Poll: Recommend Game 3? Yes (29) No (10) If you have time (5) 44 total votes Your vote: Recommend Game 3? posting this again Poll: Recommend Game 4? Yes (19) If you have time (7) No (1) 27 total votes Your vote: Recommend Game 4? | ||
Miragee
8290 Posts
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Xeln4g4
Italy1195 Posts
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
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broodbucket
Australia963 Posts
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LittLeLives
United States692 Posts
People might think this is an upset, but I believe Sea has had it in him for quite some time now. | ||
usopsama
6502 Posts
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neilmellor
China49 Posts
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anandworld
24 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:10 nurle wrote: Worst series by Bisu I have ever seen Aren't worse than his performance against a number of proleague fodder kicking his ass out of the OSL. | ||
bovienchien
Vietnam1142 Posts
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Xeln4g4
Italy1195 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:10 Miragee wrote: What a terrible series. I'm so disappointed. I expected some great BW today and saw some shit micro, shit decision making from one of the best players in existence, turning the series in a complete roflstomp. Great. Why did I even get up? Unfortunately i have to agree. Game 3 was thrown completely. | ||
ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States9651 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:10 Miragee wrote: What a terrible series. I'm so disappointed. I expected some great BW today and saw some shit micro, shit decision making from one of the best players in existence, turning the series in a complete roflstomp. Great. Why did I even get up? I woke up too lol. At least I can just get back in bed so soon XD Given, no one expected this. Not sure if partying like a madmen had some effect on Bisu, he definitely was not his usual self. Too many mistakes, decision making problems etc... | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9651 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:10 juvenal wrote: gg this is the best image ever. i cant stop laughing. | ||
Kaewins
Bulgaria138 Posts
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ZidaneTribal
United States2800 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:13 FlaShFTW wrote: Just for Bisudagger <3 I swear this image comes out for Bisudagger every time. Despite being here for 9 years or so my salt hasn't quite been accepted as much as him when anyone from SKT lost haha. | ||
Miragee
8290 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:12 bovienchien wrote: Bisu's 5 probes were so unlucky, they were dancing and moving make a circle while Bisu's 2 zealots were attacking by Sea. Yeah. That sealed the game. It's not like he would have won 100 % if the probes actually attacked anything. But those probes dancing and doing nothing made sure he would lose. | ||
[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
He may be changing ppl's preconceptions of what he can achieve. Legit threat to win it all? Gonna say yes. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:14 Kaewins wrote: It's like Bisu wanted to just win and be done with it, he was so not patient which made him do some very sloppy plays. Seems like he kind of choked here. his game was definitely sloppy. Not sure what's up, maybe he was feeling off or something. Too many mistakes for someone of his level. | ||
Katsuge
Singapore7730 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2675 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:15 [[Starlight]] wrote: Don't hate on Bisu too much guys... Sea is in really top form right now. He may be changing ppl's preconceptions of what he can achieve. Legit threat to win it all? Gonna say yes. no hate but disappointment all around. nah, I think Bisu just made too many mistakes, not to discredit Sea or anything. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19032 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:14 Qikz wrote: I swear this image comes out for Bisudagger every time. Despite being here for 9 years or so my salt hasn't quite been accepted as much as him when anyone from SKT lost haha. I predicted Bisu to lose on stream. I prepared myself | ||
jhamas
Peru22 Posts
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bovienchien
Vietnam1142 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:14 ZidaneTribal wrote: wow bisu was not prepared.. Sea was micro better than Bisu, Sea was only micro avoid Bisu's probe stack to his units. | ||
GTR
51133 Posts
yeah bisu fucked up badly | ||
pangolin123
China25 Posts
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Harem
United States11390 Posts
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Miragee
8290 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:15 [[Starlight]] wrote: Don't hate on Bisu too much guys... Sea is in really top form right now. He may be changing ppl's preconceptions of what he can achieve. Legit threat to win it all? Gonna say yes. Sea was always a highlevel player. I also don't get why people consider his TvP weak. During the kespa era he was solid in all three matchups. His problem has always been his chokes in individual leagues. Now Bisu choked and he could advance. I like Sea (his personality) and I'm glad he advanced. However, I rather would have liked to see Bisu advance. I think a Bisu final vs whoever turns out on top on the other side of the bracket could be much more entertaining than any potential Sea finals. | ||
vndestiny
Singapore3437 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:10 juvenal wrote: gg Sea smite on all the non-believers. | ||
Warfie
Norway2845 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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Miragee
8290 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:18 bovienchien wrote: Sea was micro better than Bisu, Sea was only micro avoid Bisu's probe stack to his units. What? Did you even watch the game? Sea crossed the ramp and Bisu sent his probes onto the bridge where they glitched. There wasn't really much micro from either side. Sea because he didn't have to and Bisu because he couldn't, rofl. | ||
juvenal
2448 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States9651 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:21 [[Starlight]] wrote: That was a really short bo5, lol. More sleep for me. i mean i guess? but id lose sleep for a better series | ||
usopsama
6502 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Not that Hero's a pushover or looks bad, exactly the opposite. But man, Best has looked sharp this ASL. | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9360 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:18 GTR wrote: https://clips.twitch.tv/gsl/WildStorkTheThing yeah bisu fucked up badly Love that URL. | ||
Master of DalK
Canada1789 Posts
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DarkNetHunter
1224 Posts
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ThreeActPlay
United States249 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:24 Master of DalK wrote: What a great match to start the new year off. This'll be the Year of Sea. a Sea of Eyewater | ||
Miragee
8290 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:25 DarkNetHunter wrote: The Protoss tears are delicious Can we stop this silly baiting please? It's disgusting. | ||
Turbovolver
Australia2282 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:20 Miragee wrote: Show nested quote + On January 02 2017 20:15 [[Starlight]] wrote: Don't hate on Bisu too much guys... Sea is in really top form right now. He may be changing ppl's preconceptions of what he can achieve. Legit threat to win it all? Gonna say yes. Sea was always a highlevel player. I also don't get why people consider his TvP weak. During the kespa era he was solid in all three matchups. His problem has always been his chokes in individual leagues. Now Bisu choked and he could advance. I like Sea (his personality) and I'm glad he advanced. However, I rather would have liked to see Bisu advance. I think a Bisu final vs whoever turns out on top on the other side of the bracket could be much more entertaining than any potential Sea finals. Well, you say that, but Bisu vs Hero in SSL11 wasn't that great a Finals... Bisu got smoked like a salmon in a Jewish deli. Maybe it's time for somebody else to have a go, at least until Bisu gets some sort of consistency going. | ||
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6321 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:24 [[Starlight]] wrote: Hero vs Best tomorrow. Couldn't decide who to pick before, but now with Sea demonstrating the Power of Recent Form™, gonna have to say Best. Not that Hero's a pushover or looks bad, exactly the opposite. But man, Best has looked sharp this ASL. just wait he plays zvps god | ||
Starecat
932 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:19 Harem wrote: Reminder that bisu stormed his own probes vs hero in their final and his play vs effort in VANT wasnt that pretty either Still remember this, someone even did a fun pic of it. | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9360 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:33 2Pacalypse- wrote: Sea leading the terran revolution????? | ||
[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:26 ThreeActPlay wrote: Show nested quote + On January 02 2017 20:24 Master of DalK wrote: What a great match to start the new year off. This'll be the Year of Sea. a Sea of Eyewater Sigh, Eyewater. Worst player nick ever, even if it is the most accurate Korean translation of tears. | ||
usopsama
6502 Posts
Best night ever. | ||
vndestiny
Singapore3437 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:48 usopsama wrote: So cruel. And to think, just a couple of days ago Bisu looked so happy, drunk dancing badly in Terror's messed-up apartment. | ||
Miragee
8290 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:33 2Pacalypse- wrote: That's actually more Sea-votes than I expected. We had more one-sided liquidbets in the past. | ||
usopsama
6502 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:57 [[Starlight]] wrote: So cruel. And to think, just a couple of days ago Bisu looked so happy, drunk dancing badly in Terror's messed-up apartment. Sea dances, too, but only with half-naked girls. | ||
[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:59 usopsama wrote: Show nested quote + On January 02 2017 20:57 [[Starlight]] wrote: On January 02 2017 20:48 usopsama wrote: So cruel. And to think, just a couple of days ago Bisu looked so happy, drunk dancing badly in Terror's messed-up apartment. Sea dances, too, but only with half-naked girls. "Sea... winning both in and out of the booth." | ||
jimminy_kriket
Canada5466 Posts
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[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 02 2017 21:11 jimminy_kriket wrote: good god what is up with that apartment Are those dried bloodstains on the wall behind Sea? o_0 | ||
Broodwar4lyf
303 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + His early game dragoon micromanagement is good, his arbiter usage is good, but everything he is good at in PvT, it seems, exists purely for Bisu to reach the point where he mediocre large scale battling ability won't cost him the game. There are games from nearly ten years ago that has cleaner execution of large scale battles than what Bisu pulled off today. Bisu will never be able to overcome Flash if he doesn't know how and when to take on the terran army, and despite Bisu's mastery of other elements of the match-up, they always seem to mask this ever present weakness, instead of allowing him to reach an even higher level combined with solid large scale battling abilities. Bisu was subpar for all three games, but it was a combination of bad luck, poor form, and re-emergence of well known weaknesses in the match-up that seem to be embedded within him, that allowed this series to be so disappointing compared to the expectations. | ||
Turbovolver
Australia2282 Posts
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3208 Posts
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Miragee
8290 Posts
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TaShadan
Germany1959 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4101 Posts
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quuad
Sweden77 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 02 2017 22:56 Miragee wrote: @Letmelose: PvT was always Bisu's "weak" match up because of that. He couldn't play carrier for shit and he was bad at large scale battles. To be fair, it's a bit unfair to ask him to improve over his kespa skills when most players' skill, except for a few amateurs and B-Teamers, decreased compared to that era. Which is only logical of course, with no coaches, no training schedule etc. Large scale PvT battles are an integral part of the game, and has defined the success Samsung Khan protosses had in the match-up to a large degree. Bisu was given the cheat code to win the match-up by the some of the best masterminds in PvT in the form of PuSan in MBC Game HERO, and BeSt in SK Telecom T1, and has used his impressive dragoon micro-management to carry out these abusive build orders (just like zergs with impressive mutalisk micro-management can get away with some of the greediest build paths), and has used arbiters to great effect, but his inability to win in games where he cannot just recall the terran to death, or win large scale battles with 1a2a3a4a with one or two stasis fields, is basically the equivalent of zergs who can perform great mutalisk micro-management to reach hive before the terran knows what even hit him, but cannot handle the demands of handling large scale zergling, lurker, defiler, and scourge combinations. You know who used to have great mutalisk micro-management, but couldn't for the life of him handle late-game hive tech army? Shine. It's a testament of Bisu's other great qualities such as ceaseless unit production, immaculate early dragoon micro-management, and great arbiter usage that he had such success in PvT, but it's almost unacceptable how bad Bisu is at this fundamental part of the match-up. He literally attack-moved his entire army, paid almost zero attention to his shuttle, used stasis field once, and then drag moved what remained of his zealot army towards the siege tanks. It's the kind of stuff you'd expect from a bad protoss player, not Bisu, who creates such mass devastation in multiple communities, Korean and English, whenever he falls short of the incredible expectations set for him. He doesn't need to hone his craft to the level of peak-form JangBi, just not be so weak at this particular skillset of the game that all it takes is a bad day to create this level of atrocitiy that made him lose as a maxed out protoss versus a terran who was at 140 supplies, and didn't even get any clutch EMPs in during the battle. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
Bisu is kinda like this breed, pretty shih tzu | ||
Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3329 Posts
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chrisolo
Germany2604 Posts
if I had to bet on a score between those two, I would have said 3:0. me so gosu + Show Spoiler + 3:0 for Bisu though :ooo gz Sea, gj :D | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48987 Posts
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Now he's in the semis. | ||
Greg_J
China4408 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 03 2017 00:22 stuchiu wrote: This is interesting. When I asked people about Sea in the group stage, they said he'd drop out. Now he's in the semis. Who did you ask? Ex-professionals such as Jaedong, and Rush said Sea would make it past the group stages. It's not such a huge stretch of the imagination that Sea made it this far. | ||
Lunaticman
Sweden1097 Posts
This time he just played and look what happend. He did a good job of removing Bisu from his comfort zones too. | ||
outscar
2788 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:10 juvenal wrote: gg Ahahaha! This year's best result by far. Love how Bisu gets crushed + with fans who ever doubt Online King. Hope See will show a good run vs. Flash in semis. EDIT: Oh, God is in another bracket. Good for Sea, he can crush hero (not a problem against Best after killing Bisu today). Calling it: Sea vs. Flash finals. TvT revenge again! | ||
REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1903 Posts
lol Sea with the ripped jeans sitting right next to the girl looking all pretty and dressed up in the hanbok :D | ||
Dental Floss
United States1015 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 03 2017 00:58 Lunaticman wrote: Sea has always been one of the best macro players of all time, no joke. His problem has always been he has this mental block when playing tournaments. Just look at him during some of his offline tournament games in the past, pure terror in his eyes. This time he just played and look what happend. He did a good job of removing Bisu from his comfort zones too. Flash's pick for the greatest geniuses (coincidently all players renowned for being lazy, not sure about Life) he encountered during his entire career was composed of NaDa (the greatest genius of all), ChoJJa, Sea, and Life (from Starcraft 2). If Sea had even a fraction of the discipline that Flash had, or the composure of emotions that Flash had, he could have been truly one of the greats, in my opinion. His ability to switch gears for games where he wasn't under huge pressure (such as the round of eight match that just took place), even if he wasn't in the best form was severely over-looked by some in my opinion. Truly one of the greatest talents the game had seen. | ||
ThreeActPlay
United States249 Posts
On January 03 2017 01:16 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: lol Sea with the ripped jeans sitting right next to the girl looking all pretty and dressed up in the hanbok :D Those jeans were horrible. Especially with the screen behind them, just bringing even more attention to his knees. | ||
RouaF
France4120 Posts
Too bad for the protoss I'm sure bisu wished he could have played Hero and Best wished he could have played Sea ^^ | ||
DwD
Sweden8621 Posts
3-0 !!! Sea you monster lul | ||
[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
Still, major props to Sea. Biggest upset we've seen in awhile, though maybe it's time we adjusted our perceptions of what Sea can really do. | ||
Descent
1244 Posts
On January 03 2017 03:58 [[Starlight]] wrote: I think some of those games were closer/luckier than ppl realize. Still, major props to Sea. Biggest upset we've seen in awhile, though maybe it's time we adjusted our perceptions of what Sea can really do. I think Sea has been largely underestimated. In the past (before SC2), he was always the friendly guy who showed up most on TL and tried to learn English to communicate with us, but never really won anything. However, his skill level was always up there, so he's always had the potential to make some improvements and get in the top tier. Will be interesting to see how he does in the semi-finals. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
On January 03 2017 05:17 Descent wrote: Show nested quote + On January 03 2017 03:58 [[Starlight]] wrote: I think some of those games were closer/luckier than ppl realize. Still, major props to Sea. Biggest upset we've seen in awhile, though maybe it's time we adjusted our perceptions of what Sea can really do. I think Sea has been largely underestimated. In the past (before SC2), he was always the friendly guy who showed up most on TL and tried to learn English to communicate with us, but never really won anything. However, his skill level was always up there, so he's always had the potential to make some improvements and get in the top tier. Will be interesting to see how he does in the semi-finals. To be fair, I'm sure he has been underestimated but Bisu played terribly in all the games today. Micro mistakes throughout and bad decision making lost him the games. Sea played well, really solid and capitalized on any and all mistakes to take the win. | ||
Crisium
United States1618 Posts
Bisu was definitely off, maybe he partied too hard. Maybe that was Sea's plan, it looks like they are hitting it hard equally but Sea can tolerate more. | ||
iamho
3344 Posts
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JungleTerrain
Chile799 Posts
On January 03 2017 06:03 iamho wrote: I think Sea will get rolled by Best/Hero, he didn't look so good so much as Bisu looked bad. I'd say Sea played pretty solid and calm, not exceptionally genius... I think it was Bisu playing bad more than anything. Sea had the appropriate responses to Bisu's bad play. People seem to forget that all these players in the ro8 are all ex-pros or amateurs, anybody can win vs anyone, the potential is there. If you play bad and the other guy plays a solid game you are going to lose. Not taking credit away from Sea though, as I said, I think he played solidly. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9651 Posts
On January 03 2017 06:03 iamho wrote: I think Sea will get rolled by Best/Hero, he didn't look so good so much as Bisu looked bad. Hero's ZvT isn't the best. Best has a good chance against him, hero is the underdog. Sea beat hero 3-2 in the last ASL btw. | ||
LaLuSh
Sweden2356 Posts
On January 02 2017 21:47 Letmelose wrote: Now that all the drama has pretty much settled down. Am I the only one who is a little concerned that Bisu's execution of large scale battles in PvT doesn't seem to have improved all that much after all these years? Bisu was maxed out at this point, and Sea was no where near maxed out at this point. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpbgA_kb3zQ His early game dragoon micromanagement is good, his arbiter usage is good, but everything he is good at in PvT, it seems, exists purely for Bisu to reach the point where he mediocre large scale battling ability won't cost him the game. There are games from nearly ten years ago that has cleaner execution of large scale battles than what Bisu pulled off today. Bisu will never be able to overcome Flash if he doesn't know how and when to take on the terran army, and despite Bisu's mastery of other elements of the match-up, they always seem to mask this ever present weakness, instead of allowing him to reach an even higher level combined with solid large scale battling abilities. Bisu was subpar for all three games, but it was a combination of bad luck, poor form, and re-emergence of well known weaknesses in the match-up that seem to be embedded within him, that allowed this series to be so disappointing compared to the expectations. This is why Bisu sucked ass at SC2. He has always had terrible large scale battle control and terrible decision making surrounding when and how to take late game engagements. If you inserted Stork's control and decision making into Bisu you'd have the perfect player. Bisu looks terrible everytime he isn't ahead entering the late game. The way he engages with those control groups of zealots in lategames... GAHHHHHHH. The guy never spreads out his zealots before engaging, and he almost never uses move command on zealots to get deep into the tank lines. Instead the 5-10 zealots farthest ahead always end up blocking about 30 zealots behind them. Typical Bisu engagement control. The guy can multitask 10 different locations at once, but can't be bothered to learn how to spread out one single army before engaging a large battle. | ||
ThreeActPlay
United States249 Posts
On January 03 2017 06:56 LaLuSh wrote: The way he engages with those control groups of zealots in lategames... GAHHHHHHH. The guy never spreads out his zealots before engaging, and he almost never uses move command on zealots to get deep into the tank lines. Instead the 5-10 zealots farthest ahead always end up blocking about 30 zealots behind them. Typical Bisu engagement control. I know a lot of people meme about the "lol he 1A'd, 2A'd, 3A'd and won" but that's kinda exactly what it looked like. I am not bitter or hating on protoss players at all. | ||
Miragee
8290 Posts
On January 02 2017 23:51 Letmelose wrote: Show nested quote + On January 02 2017 22:56 Miragee wrote: @Letmelose: PvT was always Bisu's "weak" match up because of that. He couldn't play carrier for shit and he was bad at large scale battles. To be fair, it's a bit unfair to ask him to improve over his kespa skills when most players' skill, except for a few amateurs and B-Teamers, decreased compared to that era. Which is only logical of course, with no coaches, no training schedule etc. Large scale PvT battles are an integral part of the game, and has defined the success Samsung Khan protosses had in the match-up to a large degree. Bisu was given the cheat code to win the match-up by the some of the best masterminds in PvT in the form of PuSan in MBC Game HERO, and BeSt in SK Telecom T1, and has used his impressive dragoon micro-management to carry out these abusive build orders (just like zergs with impressive mutalisk micro-management can get away with some of the greediest build paths), and has used arbiters to great effect, but his inability to win in games where he cannot just recall the terran to death, or win large scale battles with 1a2a3a4a with one or two stasis fields, is basically the equivalent of zergs who can perform great mutalisk micro-management to reach hive before the terran knows what even hit him, but cannot handle the demands of handling large scale zergling, lurker, defiler, and scourge combinations. You know who used to have great mutalisk micro-management, but couldn't for the life of him handle late-game hive tech army? Shine. It's a testament of Bisu's other great qualities such as ceaseless unit production, immaculate early dragoon micro-management, and great arbiter usage that he had such success in PvT, but it's almost unacceptable how bad Bisu is at this fundamental part of the match-up. He literally attack-moved his entire army, paid almost zero attention to his shuttle, used stasis field once, and then drag moved what remained of his zealot army towards the siege tanks. It's the kind of stuff you'd expect from a bad protoss player, not Bisu, who creates such mass devastation in multiple communities, Korean and English, whenever he falls short of the incredible expectations set for him. He doesn't need to hone his craft to the level of peak-form JangBi, just not be so weak at this particular skillset of the game that all it takes is a bad day to create this level of atrocitiy that made him lose as a maxed out protoss versus a terran who was at 140 supplies, and didn't even get any clutch EMPs in during the battle. I know and I agree. I just said that it's unfair to assume he should have improved when he barely improved during the kespa era. However, he should have improved this stuff during those days. I guess the coaches were rather pushing his strengths in TvP, which made him a great sniper against calibers like Flash for example, instead of trying to increase his basics. That's the only reason I can come up with... The loss of the shuttle is another story btw. It shows that it was not his day because usually he pays an enormous amount of attention to his shuttles. I think we all remember that game where he controlled 2 shuttles at the same time to harass with reavers. Any other protoss would have lost at least one shuttle within the first 15-30 seconds of the harass attempt. It also shows that his level of skill isn't on the level it was during the kespa era. He does a lot of blunders he didn't do during that era, even when he was in a slump. To be fair btw., game 2 and 3 weren't decided by the miss-management of the lategame army. In game 2 he threw himself into a tough spot because of it but he could have defended the push easily with the next engagement if he didn't recall his remaining army. Game 3 was just him being unlucky with his probes spacing out. On January 03 2017 06:56 LaLuSh wrote: Show nested quote + On January 02 2017 21:47 Letmelose wrote: Now that all the drama has pretty much settled down. Am I the only one who is a little concerned that Bisu's execution of large scale battles in PvT doesn't seem to have improved all that much after all these years? Bisu was maxed out at this point, and Sea was no where near maxed out at this point. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpbgA_kb3zQ His early game dragoon micromanagement is good, his arbiter usage is good, but everything he is good at in PvT, it seems, exists purely for Bisu to reach the point where he mediocre large scale battling ability won't cost him the game. There are games from nearly ten years ago that has cleaner execution of large scale battles than what Bisu pulled off today. Bisu will never be able to overcome Flash if he doesn't know how and when to take on the terran army, and despite Bisu's mastery of other elements of the match-up, they always seem to mask this ever present weakness, instead of allowing him to reach an even higher level combined with solid large scale battling abilities. Bisu was subpar for all three games, but it was a combination of bad luck, poor form, and re-emergence of well known weaknesses in the match-up that seem to be embedded within him, that allowed this series to be so disappointing compared to the expectations. This is why Bisu sucked ass at SC2. He has always had terrible large scale battle control and terrible decision making surrounding when and how to take late game engagements. If you inserted Stork's control and decision making into Bisu you'd have the perfect player. Bisu looks terrible everytime he isn't ahead entering the late game. The way he engages with those control groups of zealots in lategames... GAHHHHHHH. The guy never spreads out his zealots before engaging, and he almost never uses move command on zealots to get deep into the tank lines. Instead the 5-10 zealots farthest ahead always end up blocking about 30 zealots behind them. Typical Bisu engagement control. The guy can multitask 10 different locations at once, but can't be bothered to learn how to spread out one single army before engaging a large battle. The part about the lategame is not entirely true. He looked good in lategame PvZ. Probably because the army handling in lategame PvZ is much different from PvT. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
Let's not get into the last game lol. | ||
L1ghtning
Sweden353 Posts
I hope he gets to play Best. That would be a epic PvT. Regardless, Sea is one of the current masters of both TvZ and TvP, so it will be a great semifinal regardless. | ||
Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
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RPGabe
United States192 Posts
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
That being said it would have been nice to get all 5 matches of the Bo5. A 3-0 feels like such a waste of our precious precious BW. Especially with high production value like the ASL. Sea played really solid though. It seemed to me like he always read the situation perfectly and did the right moves at the right time. He never seemed to have made any mistakes at all. (part of that is probably due to bisu not playing at his usual level) | ||
Miragee
8290 Posts
On January 03 2017 08:49 RPGabe wrote: Terrans are looking so prepared for these Arbiter Recalls. Maybe P's should be focusing more on templars and shuttlework? Yeah, if the protoss flies the arbiter over spidermines on the map and then maneuvers it through the terran base for 30 second because he is hesitant to commit to a recall on the already positioned army in the terran base but then still commits to it, then yes, the terran is looking prepared. This kind of arbiter play doesn't worked and has never worked. It has brought us some of the most glorious arbiter fails in the history of BW though. The bottom line is: The arbiter is an insane unit and recall is one of the most powerful spells in the game. However, if an idiot handles the control panel, even the greatest technology doesn't work as intended. | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
:O Well, this is fucking disappointing. Congrats Sea. On topic of large-scale PvT engagements, I think only Free and JangBi actually spread their armies relatively effectively during the post-KeSPA era. | ||
byj
491 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:13 FlaShFTW wrote: Just for Bisudagger <3 paintbucket bisu? | ||
Piste
6137 Posts
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Mutaller
United States1007 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
I know and I agree. I just said that it's unfair to assume he should have improved when he barely improved during the kespa era. However, he should have improved this stuff during those days. I guess the coaches were rather pushing his strengths in TvP, which made him a great sniper against calibers like Flash for example, instead of trying to increase his basics. That's the only reason I can come up with... The loss of the shuttle is another story btw. It shows that it was not his day because usually he pays an enormous amount of attention to his shuttles. I think we all remember that game where he controlled 2 shuttles at the same time to harass with reavers. Any other protoss would have lost at least one shuttle within the first 15-30 seconds of the harass attempt. It also shows that his level of skill isn't on the level it was during the kespa era. He does a lot of blunders he didn't do during that era, even when he was in a slump. To be fair btw., game 2 and 3 weren't decided by the miss-management of the lategame army. In game 2 he threw himself into a tough spot because of it but he could have defended the push easily with the next engagement if he didn't recall his remaining army. Game 3 was just him being unlucky with his probes spacing out. Bisu had the benefit of playing with some of the most brilliant minds in the match-up PvT, which coupled with his fantastic abilities as a Brood War player in general (non-stop production of units, great small scale micro-management, and the ability to execute certain build paths without skipping a single beat), allowed him to gain great success in the match-up, but his qualities outside of that was so lackluster at times (I won't even mention how he used carriers). All it took was an off day for him to throw away massive leads by literally attack moving his entire army and hoping for the best, which would come back to bite him on the ass even by players who weren't that good, or were way past their prime such as Iris, which was the reason he lost his final game by literally throwing away his army to defeat himself in what was his final KeSPA officiated best of five series ever. + Show Spoiler + After Flash overcame him in terms of skill, Bisu was only able to defeat him in a ProLeague setting where SK Telecom T1 had three separate cards ready for action (FanTaSy, BeSt, and Bisu), while Flash had to prepare for all three. FanTaSy and BeSt were sent to dispose of Flash ten times in their ProLeague careers, while Bisu was used more sparingly, and used only on maps that was heavily biased against terrans in TvP (Neo Chain Reaction, and Aztec). Even then, Bisu had to rely heavily on abusive builds that maximized his god-like small scale zealot micro-management skills and multi-tasking to gain a head start early on. Hardly indicative of how he mastered the match-up, rather, an indication of the luxuries he enjoyed as a member of SK Telecom T1 who had several routes of sniping Flash. Upsets happen all the time. All it takes is a smartly planned series, and a series of unfortunate events that can lead to insurmountable leads for the player of lesser skill. We've seen it happen before, where the better player does reasonably well given the circumstances given to him, but cannot perform to the degree where he can overcome the opposing player both in terms of skill, and the advantages gained by the other player through luck, preparation, or map imbalance. Lady luck was definitely on Sea's side yesterday, and this series definitely isn't indicative of Bisu's skill, however, even on an incredibly bad day, you have to make the most of what you have. Game two is just one of those WTF moments that leaves so much to be desired, and it wasn't one of the games where the circumstances were beyond Bisu's control. All it takes is for Bisu to not attack move his maxed out army and praying it all works out, and we have a game four at our hands. Even after all the bad luck he has, Bisu is now facing Sea on Benzene, a map Sea thinks is impossible to beat a great protoss like Bisu in a straight-up macro-management game. Even after all the bad luck, the build order deficits, and all the minor mistakes that we don't often see from Bisu, we still probably would have seen a full five set series, if Bisu didn't go full retard mode, and made an execution error that has been popping up every now and again whenever he feels like attack moving is the way to win versus top level terran players. It's okay to lose 0-3 to a player of Sea's calibre under certain contexts, shit happens. Under the unfortunate circumstances seen from yesterday's series, we saw how badly Bisu's weaknesses in the match-up can manifest themselves and ruin not only Bisu's chances of a five game series, but our expectations of a competitive series. That was what I was pointing out. I don't even need him to have the skills of some of gods of the battlefield, just not attack move his entire army like a 40 APM newb and expect to win. | ||
prOxi.swAMi
Australia3091 Posts
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rockslave
Brazil318 Posts
Now, is that 2 base arbiter rush something that protosses are doing every game these days? I haven't followed BW after Kespa and it's really weird to me. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9651 Posts
On January 03 2017 11:39 byj wrote: paintbucket bisu? Its like a bucket for tears | ||
Descent
1244 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
On January 03 2017 13:59 Descent wrote: Is someone going to make a thread for the Ro8 match between BeSt and hero in a few hours? Ask and you shall receive: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/517830-asl-ro8-best-vs-hero | ||
Descent
1244 Posts
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usopsama
6502 Posts
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Lunaticman
Sweden1097 Posts
On January 03 2017 01:41 Letmelose wrote: Show nested quote + On January 03 2017 00:58 Lunaticman wrote: Sea has always been one of the best macro players of all time, no joke. His problem has always been he has this mental block when playing tournaments. Just look at him during some of his offline tournament games in the past, pure terror in his eyes. This time he just played and look what happend. He did a good job of removing Bisu from his comfort zones too. Flash's pick for the greatest geniuses (coincidently all players renowned for being lazy, not sure about Life) he encountered during his entire career was composed of NaDa (the greatest genius of all), ChoJJa, Sea, and Life (from Starcraft 2). If Sea had even a fraction of the discipline that Flash had, or the composure of emotions that Flash had, he could have been truly one of the greats, in my opinion. His ability to switch gears for games where he wasn't under huge pressure (such as the round of eight match that just took place), even if he wasn't in the best form was severely over-looked by some in my opinion. Truly one of the greatest talents the game had seen. Yeah I agree, I can almost imagine it in my mind. He approaches every match as a solo que monster, putting little to no effort in the bigger games. He just plays on autopilots and still manages to almost beat most of the greatest players. A good point from you being that he probably is very lazy, if he just applied himself more I think he could have been the TvT rival Flash never had | ||
[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 03 2017 16:30 Lunaticman wrote: Show nested quote + On January 03 2017 01:41 Letmelose wrote: On January 03 2017 00:58 Lunaticman wrote: Sea has always been one of the best macro players of all time, no joke. His problem has always been he has this mental block when playing tournaments. Just look at him during some of his offline tournament games in the past, pure terror in his eyes. This time he just played and look what happend. He did a good job of removing Bisu from his comfort zones too. Flash's pick for the greatest geniuses (coincidently all players renowned for being lazy, not sure about Life) he encountered during his entire career was composed of NaDa (the greatest genius of all), ChoJJa, Sea, and Life (from Starcraft 2). If Sea had even a fraction of the discipline that Flash had, or the composure of emotions that Flash had, he could have been truly one of the greats, in my opinion. His ability to switch gears for games where he wasn't under huge pressure (such as the round of eight match that just took place), even if he wasn't in the best form was severely over-looked by some in my opinion. Truly one of the greatest talents the game had seen. Yeah I agree, I can almost imagine it in my mind. He approaches every match as a solo que monster, putting little to no effort in the bigger games. He just plays on autopilots and still manages to almost beat most of the greatest players. A good point from you being that he probably is very lazy, if he just applied himself more I think he could have been the TvT rival Flash never had Didn't Fantasy win like 40%+ of his games vs Flash? | ||
[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24562 Posts
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Miragee
8290 Posts
On January 03 2017 12:14 Letmelose wrote: Show nested quote + I know and I agree. I just said that it's unfair to assume he should have improved when he barely improved during the kespa era. However, he should have improved this stuff during those days. I guess the coaches were rather pushing his strengths in TvP, which made him a great sniper against calibers like Flash for example, instead of trying to increase his basics. That's the only reason I can come up with... The loss of the shuttle is another story btw. It shows that it was not his day because usually he pays an enormous amount of attention to his shuttles. I think we all remember that game where he controlled 2 shuttles at the same time to harass with reavers. Any other protoss would have lost at least one shuttle within the first 15-30 seconds of the harass attempt. It also shows that his level of skill isn't on the level it was during the kespa era. He does a lot of blunders he didn't do during that era, even when he was in a slump. To be fair btw., game 2 and 3 weren't decided by the miss-management of the lategame army. In game 2 he threw himself into a tough spot because of it but he could have defended the push easily with the next engagement if he didn't recall his remaining army. Game 3 was just him being unlucky with his probes spacing out. Bisu had the benefit of playing with some of the most brilliant minds in the match-up PvT, which coupled with his fantastic abilities as a Brood War player in general (non-stop production of units, great small scale micro-management, and the ability to execute certain build paths without skipping a single beat), allowed him to gain great success in the match-up, but his qualities outside of that was so lackluster at times (I won't even mention how he used carriers). All it took was an off day for him to throw away massive leads by literally attack moving his entire army and hoping for the best, which would come back to bite him on the ass even by players who weren't that good, or were way past their prime such as Iris, which was the reason he lost his final game by literally throwing away his army to defeat himself in what was his final KeSPA officiated best of five series ever. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIaWmziCSHk After Flash overcame him in terms of skill, Bisu was only able to defeat him in a ProLeague setting where SK Telecom T1 had three separate cards ready for action (FanTaSy, BeSt, and Bisu), while Flash had to prepare for all three. FanTaSy and BeSt were sent to dispose of Flash ten times in their ProLeague careers, while Bisu was used more sparingly, and used only on maps that was heavily biased against terrans in TvP (Neo Chain Reaction, and Aztec). Even then, Bisu had to rely heavily on abusive builds that maximized his god-like small scale zealot micro-management skills and multi-tasking to gain a head start early on. Hardly indicative of how he mastered the match-up, rather, an indication of the luxuries he enjoyed as a member of SK Telecom T1 who had several routes of sniping Flash. Upsets happen all the time. All it takes is a smartly planned series, and a series of unfortunate events that can lead to insurmountable leads for the player of lesser skill. We've seen it happen before, where the better player does reasonably well given the circumstances given to him, but cannot perform to the degree where he can overcome the opposing player both in terms of skill, and the advantages gained by the other player through luck, preparation, or map imbalance. Lady luck was definitely on Sea's side yesterday, and this series definitely isn't indicative of Bisu's skill, however, even on an incredibly bad day, you have to make the most of what you have. Game two is just one of those WTF moments that leaves so much to be desired, and it wasn't one of the games where the circumstances were beyond Bisu's control. All it takes is for Bisu to not attack move his maxed out army and praying it all works out, and we have a game four at our hands. Even after all the bad luck he has, Bisu is now facing Sea on Benzene, a map Sea thinks is impossible to beat a great protoss like Bisu in a straight-up macro-management game. Even after all the bad luck, the build order deficits, and all the minor mistakes that we don't often see from Bisu, we still probably would have seen a full five set series, if Bisu didn't go full retard mode, and made an execution error that has been popping up every now and again whenever he feels like attack moving is the way to win versus top level terran players. It's okay to lose 0-3 to a player of Sea's calibre under certain contexts, shit happens. Under the unfortunate circumstances seen from yesterday's series, we saw how badly Bisu's weaknesses in the match-up can manifest themselves and ruin not only Bisu's chances of a five game series, but our expectations of a competitive series. That was what I was pointing out. I don't even need him to have the skills of some of gods of the battlefield, just not attack move his entire army like a 40 APM newb and expect to win. Couldn't agree more with this. On January 03 2017 17:23 [[Starlight]] wrote: Show nested quote + On January 03 2017 16:30 Lunaticman wrote: On January 03 2017 01:41 Letmelose wrote: On January 03 2017 00:58 Lunaticman wrote: Sea has always been one of the best macro players of all time, no joke. His problem has always been he has this mental block when playing tournaments. Just look at him during some of his offline tournament games in the past, pure terror in his eyes. This time he just played and look what happend. He did a good job of removing Bisu from his comfort zones too. Flash's pick for the greatest geniuses (coincidently all players renowned for being lazy, not sure about Life) he encountered during his entire career was composed of NaDa (the greatest genius of all), ChoJJa, Sea, and Life (from Starcraft 2). If Sea had even a fraction of the discipline that Flash had, or the composure of emotions that Flash had, he could have been truly one of the greats, in my opinion. His ability to switch gears for games where he wasn't under huge pressure (such as the round of eight match that just took place), even if he wasn't in the best form was severely over-looked by some in my opinion. Truly one of the greatest talents the game had seen. Yeah I agree, I can almost imagine it in my mind. He approaches every match as a solo que monster, putting little to no effort in the bigger games. He just plays on autopilots and still manages to almost beat most of the greatest players. A good point from you being that he probably is very lazy, if he just applied himself more I think he could have been the TvT rival Flash never had Didn't Fantasy win like 40%+ of his games vs Flash? Yup, they are 13-10 in favour of Flash. | ||
[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 02 2017 20:31 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Show nested quote + On January 02 2017 20:24 [[Starlight]] wrote: Hero vs Best tomorrow. Couldn't decide who to pick before, but now with Sea demonstrating the Power of Recent Form™, gonna have to say Best. Not that Hero's a pushover or looks bad, exactly the opposite. But man, Best has looked sharp this ASL. just wait til [Best] plays zvps god About that... | ||
Lunaticman
Sweden1097 Posts
On January 03 2017 19:44 Miragee wrote: Show nested quote + On January 03 2017 12:14 Letmelose wrote: I know and I agree. I just said that it's unfair to assume he should have improved when he barely improved during the kespa era. However, he should have improved this stuff during those days. I guess the coaches were rather pushing his strengths in TvP, which made him a great sniper against calibers like Flash for example, instead of trying to increase his basics. That's the only reason I can come up with... The loss of the shuttle is another story btw. It shows that it was not his day because usually he pays an enormous amount of attention to his shuttles. I think we all remember that game where he controlled 2 shuttles at the same time to harass with reavers. Any other protoss would have lost at least one shuttle within the first 15-30 seconds of the harass attempt. It also shows that his level of skill isn't on the level it was during the kespa era. He does a lot of blunders he didn't do during that era, even when he was in a slump. To be fair btw., game 2 and 3 weren't decided by the miss-management of the lategame army. In game 2 he threw himself into a tough spot because of it but he could have defended the push easily with the next engagement if he didn't recall his remaining army. Game 3 was just him being unlucky with his probes spacing out. Bisu had the benefit of playing with some of the most brilliant minds in the match-up PvT, which coupled with his fantastic abilities as a Brood War player in general (non-stop production of units, great small scale micro-management, and the ability to execute certain build paths without skipping a single beat), allowed him to gain great success in the match-up, but his qualities outside of that was so lackluster at times (I won't even mention how he used carriers). All it took was an off day for him to throw away massive leads by literally attack moving his entire army and hoping for the best, which would come back to bite him on the ass even by players who weren't that good, or were way past their prime such as Iris, which was the reason he lost his final game by literally throwing away his army to defeat himself in what was his final KeSPA officiated best of five series ever. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIaWmziCSHk After Flash overcame him in terms of skill, Bisu was only able to defeat him in a ProLeague setting where SK Telecom T1 had three separate cards ready for action (FanTaSy, BeSt, and Bisu), while Flash had to prepare for all three. FanTaSy and BeSt were sent to dispose of Flash ten times in their ProLeague careers, while Bisu was used more sparingly, and used only on maps that was heavily biased against terrans in TvP (Neo Chain Reaction, and Aztec). Even then, Bisu had to rely heavily on abusive builds that maximized his god-like small scale zealot micro-management skills and multi-tasking to gain a head start early on. Hardly indicative of how he mastered the match-up, rather, an indication of the luxuries he enjoyed as a member of SK Telecom T1 who had several routes of sniping Flash. Upsets happen all the time. All it takes is a smartly planned series, and a series of unfortunate events that can lead to insurmountable leads for the player of lesser skill. We've seen it happen before, where the better player does reasonably well given the circumstances given to him, but cannot perform to the degree where he can overcome the opposing player both in terms of skill, and the advantages gained by the other player through luck, preparation, or map imbalance. Lady luck was definitely on Sea's side yesterday, and this series definitely isn't indicative of Bisu's skill, however, even on an incredibly bad day, you have to make the most of what you have. Game two is just one of those WTF moments that leaves so much to be desired, and it wasn't one of the games where the circumstances were beyond Bisu's control. All it takes is for Bisu to not attack move his maxed out army and praying it all works out, and we have a game four at our hands. Even after all the bad luck he has, Bisu is now facing Sea on Benzene, a map Sea thinks is impossible to beat a great protoss like Bisu in a straight-up macro-management game. Even after all the bad luck, the build order deficits, and all the minor mistakes that we don't often see from Bisu, we still probably would have seen a full five set series, if Bisu didn't go full retard mode, and made an execution error that has been popping up every now and again whenever he feels like attack moving is the way to win versus top level terran players. It's okay to lose 0-3 to a player of Sea's calibre under certain contexts, shit happens. Under the unfortunate circumstances seen from yesterday's series, we saw how badly Bisu's weaknesses in the match-up can manifest themselves and ruin not only Bisu's chances of a five game series, but our expectations of a competitive series. That was what I was pointing out. I don't even need him to have the skills of some of gods of the battlefield, just not attack move his entire army like a 40 APM newb and expect to win. Couldn't agree more with this. Show nested quote + On January 03 2017 17:23 [[Starlight]] wrote: On January 03 2017 16:30 Lunaticman wrote: On January 03 2017 01:41 Letmelose wrote: On January 03 2017 00:58 Lunaticman wrote: Sea has always been one of the best macro players of all time, no joke. His problem has always been he has this mental block when playing tournaments. Just look at him during some of his offline tournament games in the past, pure terror in his eyes. This time he just played and look what happend. He did a good job of removing Bisu from his comfort zones too. Flash's pick for the greatest geniuses (coincidently all players renowned for being lazy, not sure about Life) he encountered during his entire career was composed of NaDa (the greatest genius of all), ChoJJa, Sea, and Life (from Starcraft 2). If Sea had even a fraction of the discipline that Flash had, or the composure of emotions that Flash had, he could have been truly one of the greats, in my opinion. His ability to switch gears for games where he wasn't under huge pressure (such as the round of eight match that just took place), even if he wasn't in the best form was severely over-looked by some in my opinion. Truly one of the greatest talents the game had seen. Yeah I agree, I can almost imagine it in my mind. He approaches every match as a solo que monster, putting little to no effort in the bigger games. He just plays on autopilots and still manages to almost beat most of the greatest players. A good point from you being that he probably is very lazy, if he just applied himself more I think he could have been the TvT rival Flash never had Didn't Fantasy win like 40%+ of his games vs Flash? Yup, they are 13-10 in favour of Flash. Yeah Fantasy is great, I just think he also failed to live up to his potential just like Sea. Maybe the post kespa era should be named the redemption arc LOL. | ||
tedster
984 Posts
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ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1658 Posts
On January 05 2017 00:22 tedster wrote: Fantasy had 5 finals appearances and an OSL win, I think it's a big stretch to say he didn't live up to his potential even if he missed a few golds. I'd also add to that and say that I reckon Fantasy had plenty of absolute top-tier play left in him. He honestly didn't quite get the opportunity to live up to his potential which was shown to be considerable. | ||
moopie
12605 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
FanTaSy can be proud for achieving the following things in his career. 1) Eventually overcoming Flash as the best terran player of his race even if it was only due to the circumstances, or temporary in nature (we will never find out). 2) Being the only terran in history to reach multiple finals of the individual leagues apart from the bonjwas (BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, and Flash) 3) Reaching the more OGN StarLeague finals than anybody in history except for BoxeR and July, both of whom have much longer careers than he has. 4) Being one of the six players in history with a career win rate of over 60% (meaning that they are the only ones in history who finished their careers without sucking for years on end), alongside iloveoov, all four of Taek-Beng-Lee-Ssang, and EffOrt. 5) Being the sole inventor of late-mech, the most game changing meta-game discovery since the PvZ revolution spear headed by Bisu. Not bad for a terran with relatively slow APM, forgettable bionic play, and some one who relied quite heavily on his execution of vulture harassment for his prided match-up of TvP. + Show Spoiler + Some of the vulture micro-management he displayed still makes me shake my head in disbelief. I'm not sure if he had much potential (I think Sea shits all over him in this regard), but his work ethic, and diligence was probably unmatched by any other terran players of the modern era. Considering how the skills of players who were considered as the best in terms of sheer skill (Jaedong and Bisu) for the other races were gained by sheer practice, not talent, perhaps FanTaSy would have gone on to achieve more if his career. Maybe Flash was complacent after being the number one player of his race for so long, and would have gotten the incentive to practice hardcore in order to surpass FanTaSy with his superior talent. Flash always said on stream that he was confident of reaching the number one spot again, even after he got shut-down by FanTaSy in the last ever BO5 he played. We will never know. | ||
Lunaticman
Sweden1097 Posts
On January 05 2017 00:22 tedster wrote: Fantasy had 5 finals appearances and an OSL win, I think it's a big stretch to say he didn't live up to his potential even if he missed a few golds. Yeah, that is true of course, Fantasy is above Sea but I think he should have won more than he did, if that makes sense? | ||
Lunaticman
Sweden1097 Posts
On January 05 2017 16:28 Letmelose wrote: FanTaSy was one of the most famous players for practicing insane hours. I think FanTaSy had an even better work ethic than Flash (I think Flash said he was very proud of his work ethic, but had to give it to Jaedong or FanTaSy from the rumours he heard), but Flash was definitely more talented. Sea was insanely talented, but was way too laid back (almost everybody on Afreeca mentioned how he half-assed it). You can't be laid back and win championships unless you have unimaginable levels of talent like NaDa. FanTaSy can be proud for achieving the following things in his career. 1) Eventually overcoming Flash as the best terran player of his race even if it was only due to the circumstances, or temporary in nature (we will never find out). 2) Being the only terran in history to reach multiple finals of the individual leagues apart from the bonjwas (BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, and Flash) 3) Reaching the more OGN StarLeague finals than anybody in history except for BoxeR and July, both of whom have much longer careers than he has. 4) Being one of the six players in history with a career win rate of over 60% (meaning that they are the only ones in history who finished their careers without sucking for years on end), alongside iloveoov, all four of Taek-Beng-Lee-Ssang, and EffOrt. 5) Being the sole inventor of late-mech, the most game changing meta-game discovery since the PvZ revolution spear headed by Bisu. Not bad for a terran with relatively slow APM, forgettable bionic play, and some one who relied quite heavily on his execution of vulture harassment for his prided match-up of TvP. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6tQN90rG6M#t=12m28s Some of the vulture micro-management he displayed still makes me shake my head in disbelief. I'm not sure if he had much potential (I think Sea shits all over him in this regard), but his work ethic, and diligence was probably unmatched by any other terran players of the modern era. Considering how the skills of players who were considered as the best in terms of sheer skill (Jaedong and Bisu) for the other races were gained by sheer practice, not talent, perhaps FanTaSy would have gone on to achieve more if his career. Maybe Flash was complacent after being the number one player of his race for so long, and would have gotten the incentive to practice hardcore in order to surpass FanTaSy with his superior talent. Flash always said on stream that he was confident of reaching the number one spot again, even after he got shut-down by FanTaSy in the last ever BO5 he played. We will never know. wow nice response <3, yeah my memory isn't that good so that summary is perfect. Imagine the TvT games we missed out on because of Kespa shutting down Flash new benchmark . I guess Fantasy and Sea are the perfect examples of the proverb: Practice makes perfect? Talent is only ever as good as the time you spend practicing the craft? But I also suppose the flip side of that is if you ever stop training, you will lose your edge to the more talented player? That might be a big reason why Sea is progressing so far in ASL atm? Anyway I love this thread. EDIT: Also why isn't Fantasy in ASL? | ||
Ghost151
United States290 Posts
On January 03 2017 13:34 FlaShFTW wrote: Show nested quote + On January 03 2017 11:39 byj wrote: On January 02 2017 20:13 FlaShFTW wrote: Just for Bisudagger <3 paintbucket bisu? Its like a bucket for tears Oh, that works too. I saw it as "mopping the floor with Bisu," which was pretty accurate lol. Blame Bisu's bad play or Sea's strong showing, he still capitalized when the opportunity presented itself. Not disappointed as Sea is one of my favorite players and I never considered Bisu that great by comparison when the Protoss field has so many good examples, but even I expected more than a 0-3 sweep out of him. Hilarious. | ||
[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On January 07 2017 09:16 Ghost151 wrote: Show nested quote + On January 03 2017 13:34 FlaShFTW wrote: On January 03 2017 11:39 byj wrote: On January 02 2017 20:13 FlaShFTW wrote: Just for Bisudagger <3 paintbucket bisu? Its like a bucket for tears Oh, that works too. I saw it as "mopping the floor with Bisu," which was pretty accurate lol. Blame Bisu's bad play or Sea's strong showing, he still capitalized when the opportunity presented itself. Not disappointed as Sea is one of my favorite players and I never considered Bisu that great by comparison when the Protoss field has so many good examples, but even I expected more than a 0-3 sweep out of him. Hilarious. Sea's face at the end of the final game said it all. I think even he was very surprised at the sweep. | ||
Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
On January 05 2017 18:31 Lunaticman wrote: Show nested quote + On January 05 2017 16:28 Letmelose wrote: FanTaSy was one of the most famous players for practicing insane hours. I think FanTaSy had an even better work ethic than Flash (I think Flash said he was very proud of his work ethic, but had to give it to Jaedong or FanTaSy from the rumours he heard), but Flash was definitely more talented. Sea was insanely talented, but was way too laid back (almost everybody on Afreeca mentioned how he half-assed it). You can't be laid back and win championships unless you have unimaginable levels of talent like NaDa. FanTaSy can be proud for achieving the following things in his career. 1) Eventually overcoming Flash as the best terran player of his race even if it was only due to the circumstances, or temporary in nature (we will never find out). 2) Being the only terran in history to reach multiple finals of the individual leagues apart from the bonjwas (BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, and Flash) 3) Reaching the more OGN StarLeague finals than anybody in history except for BoxeR and July, both of whom have much longer careers than he has. 4) Being one of the six players in history with a career win rate of over 60% (meaning that they are the only ones in history who finished their careers without sucking for years on end), alongside iloveoov, all four of Taek-Beng-Lee-Ssang, and EffOrt. 5) Being the sole inventor of late-mech, the most game changing meta-game discovery since the PvZ revolution spear headed by Bisu. Not bad for a terran with relatively slow APM, forgettable bionic play, and some one who relied quite heavily on his execution of vulture harassment for his prided match-up of TvP. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6tQN90rG6M#t=12m28s Some of the vulture micro-management he displayed still makes me shake my head in disbelief. I'm not sure if he had much potential (I think Sea shits all over him in this regard), but his work ethic, and diligence was probably unmatched by any other terran players of the modern era. Considering how the skills of players who were considered as the best in terms of sheer skill (Jaedong and Bisu) for the other races were gained by sheer practice, not talent, perhaps FanTaSy would have gone on to achieve more if his career. Maybe Flash was complacent after being the number one player of his race for so long, and would have gotten the incentive to practice hardcore in order to surpass FanTaSy with his superior talent. Flash always said on stream that he was confident of reaching the number one spot again, even after he got shut-down by FanTaSy in the last ever BO5 he played. We will never know. wow nice response <3, yeah my memory isn't that good so that summary is perfect. Imagine the TvT games we missed out on because of Kespa shutting down Flash new benchmark . I guess Fantasy and Sea are the perfect examples of the proverb: Practice makes perfect? Talent is only ever as good as the time you spend practicing the craft? But I also suppose the flip side of that is if you ever stop training, you will lose your edge to the more talented player? That might be a big reason why Sea is progressing so far in ASL atm? Anyway I love this thread. EDIT: Also why isn't Fantasy in ASL? FanTaSy is sadly doing his military service and didn't mention any indication that he wanted to stream Broodwar when he got back | ||
Barneyk
Sweden297 Posts
I am a bit worried about any new players being to break in, new players aren't gonna be able to get the kind of training that the old pros had in the team houses. So how would a new talented player reach a level of success high enough to get the kind of training you need to really compete with the elite? It feels a bit like catch 22. Is there a plan moving forward to help new players break into the elite? | ||
mierin
United States4938 Posts
On January 08 2017 10:12 Barneyk wrote: If we got Fantasy and Jangbi back in the scene my life would be complete! I am a bit worried about any new players being to break in, new players aren't gonna be able to get the kind of training that the old pros had in the team houses. So how would a new talented player reach a level of success high enough to get the kind of training you need to really compete with the elite? It feels a bit like catch 22. Is there a plan moving forward to help new players break into the elite? That's the one thing I fear most about BW...it was nice seeing the amateur in the ASL, but with all the other games out there it seems like BW might be way down on the list for the most talented up and coming kids. | ||
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