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People here really aint fair towards Sea, I think he played great. There is more to game 4 than Best screwing up. If Sea doesnt realize it and capitalizes on Bests mistakes the game would still go to Best. But Sea was very quick in that game. No indecisiveness, no confusion, just straight forward good decision making. Best sacrificed almost all of his ground units without killing many units of Sea and Sea abused that and went straight for the natural. At this point Best couldnt even rebuild the ground army because Sea was already at the gates of the main. Best didnt have enough gateways on the other side of the map yet. People here are trying to make it sound like anybody could have won that game 4.
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On January 16 2017 06:24 RoomOfMush wrote: People here really aint fair towards Sea, I think he played great. There is more to game 4 than Best screwing up. If Sea doesnt realize it and capitalizes on Bests mistakes the game would still go to Best. But Sea was very quick in that game. No indecisiveness, no confusion, just straight forward good decision making. Best sacrificed almost all of his ground units without killing many units of Sea and Sea abused that and went straight for the natural. At this point Best couldnt even rebuild the ground army because Sea was already at the gates of the main. Best didnt have enough gateways on the other side of the map yet. People here are trying to make it sound like anybody could have won that game 4.
Also, people look at Sea's control and critique it, which is fine, but realize too that he is all over the map with 2-3 groups of vultures which is what makes them hard to control. In game 4 he managed to kill 15+ probes by midgame which is how he turned things around. Best really couldn't seem to lock down the map in the way he wanted until it was too late.
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Germany3128 Posts
On January 16 2017 06:13 Dental Floss wrote: People are really under estimating Sea, he was a total beast in proleague and towards the end he was quickly becoming one of the best terrans on the scene. There are players that made the decision to focus on PL at the expense of individual leagues and people often overlook them. It was a long time ago but remember that the individual league stars often slumped in PL when they had to sacrifice their prep time to prepare their individual games.
Everyone knows about Sea's accomplishments in Teamleagues here. People also know that he was really strong in the amateur scene. But what people also know is that according to the other pros and even korean TL members, contributing on this site, Sea was barely practicing at all for ASL and focused on establishing his stream. And you can see it in his controls and macro.
Mind you: I'm still angry at BeSt and Bisu for donating wins to Sea but if BeSt was in the finale against Flash we could see some macro games. Now it's basically: Finish in under 10 mins or Flash wins.
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From a Korean Point of View, was cheesing in the 5th game bad manner? Or totally fine and a move of strategic genius?
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On January 16 2017 07:27 FusionCutter wrote: From a Korean Point of View, was cheesing in the 5th game bad manner? Or totally fine and a move of strategic genius?
How is that bad manner? Wtf? I'm not a fan of cheese but this is ridiculous.
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Germany3128 Posts
On January 16 2017 07:27 FusionCutter wrote: From a Korean Point of View, was cheesing in the 5th game bad manner? Or totally fine and a move of strategic genius? Maybe it's bad mannered if you just play a fun series but in an actual tournament? I don't think anyone thinks it was bad mannered
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Awesome set. WOOOO! I knew he was going to cheese the heck out of game 5 but BBS? Great win by a great player.
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I honestly believe that BBS vs Protoss is the toughest build to face in Brood War. It's much easier to beat it with Zerg, and that's also very hard!
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TLADT24917 Posts
On January 16 2017 08:23 Vuk_91 wrote: I honestly believe that BBS vs Protoss is the toughest build to face in Brood War. It's much easier to beat it with Zerg, and that's also very hard! It feels like people really are underestimating just how much of a "ballsy and could've really backfired" move this was by Sea. This is Jaedong level imo.
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On January 16 2017 03:43 Me_ToKa wrote:This is how I imagine Sea leaving the studio: + Show Spoiler + Starts at 1:39 Sorry I don't have .gif What is this video about?
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Thanks. It turns out that Sea did scan the Carriers (14:24 game time) and immediately macro'd up Goliaths just moments before BeSt recalled onto the other side of the main. BeSt sees the Goliaths coming out (15:27) and, with his fleet already half-way to his fifth decides to intercept the tanks going to his main. He never caught scent of the Goliaths Sea got from earlier so he starts producing more Carriers between those times. Getting his fleet caught out and losing 2 ships at 16:49 was really bad, though I don't know how much it would have changed things.
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United States9654 Posts
On January 16 2017 03:38 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On January 15 2017 21:44 FlaShFTW wrote:On January 15 2017 21:42 Broodwar4lyf wrote: Can we please go back how terrible BEST played game 1 4 and 5? lol yeah game 1 was a misplay with failing to block the choke and letting vultures end him. game 4 was just... ugh. he should have won that game so easily, how do you lose 5 base vs 3 base as protoss on demian? oh, by going carriers, losing your entire ground army to a recall and not even remacroing it, then not doing anything with those carriers. game 5 was just the bbs. it wasnt him playing bad, it was just bad luck he chose that build and lacked scouting. not scouting and not building any zealots/dragoons until your opponent has an army in your base is pretty bad. A bit more than just bad luck. Read the part where i say it was the build choice. There are plenty of people here who are saying you cut a goon to get the second gateway and range. To add insult to injury, he tried to proxy as well which made it even worse. Thats not being bad, its having a BO loss while even going greedy with the proxy and not scouting. Bad would be the carrier control in game 4
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On January 16 2017 10:38 LittLeLives wrote:Thanks. It turns out that Sea did scan the Carriers (14:24 game time) and immediately macro'd up Goliaths just moments before BeSt recalled onto the other side of the main. BeSt sees the Goliaths coming out (15:27) and, with his fleet already half-way to his fifth decides to intercept the tanks going to his main. He never caught scent of the Goliaths Sea got from earlier so he starts producing more Carriers between those times. Getting his fleet caught out and losing 2 ships at 16:49 was really bad, though I don't know how much it would have changed things.
How did you watch FPVOD of game 4 ? The video linked cut off at the 60 minute mark after game 3 for me :/ ( on mobile). Edit: nvm apparently the non-mobile version is full duration, interesting.
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Holy shit sea!!!
Op needs spoilers updated
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TLADT24917 Posts
On January 16 2017 12:21 Grettin wrote: Holy shit sea!!!
Op needs spoilers updated done.
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On January 16 2017 06:46 TheNewEra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2017 06:13 Dental Floss wrote: People are really under estimating Sea, he was a total beast in proleague and towards the end he was quickly becoming one of the best terrans on the scene. There are players that made the decision to focus on PL at the expense of individual leagues and people often overlook them. It was a long time ago but remember that the individual league stars often slumped in PL when they had to sacrifice their prep time to prepare their individual games. Everyone knows about Sea's accomplishments in Teamleagues here. People also know that he was really strong in the amateur scene. But what people also know is that according to the other pros and even korean TL members, contributing on this site, Sea was barely practicing at all for ASL and focused on establishing his stream. And you can see it in his controls and macro. Mind you: I'm still angry at BeSt and Bisu for donating wins to Sea but if BeSt was in the finale against Flash we could see some macro games. Now it's basically: Finish in under 10 mins or Flash wins.
lol though at assuming flash is a auto win against jd.
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On January 16 2017 11:30 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2017 03:38 BlackJack wrote:On January 15 2017 21:44 FlaShFTW wrote:On January 15 2017 21:42 Broodwar4lyf wrote: Can we please go back how terrible BEST played game 1 4 and 5? lol yeah game 1 was a misplay with failing to block the choke and letting vultures end him. game 4 was just... ugh. he should have won that game so easily, how do you lose 5 base vs 3 base as protoss on demian? oh, by going carriers, losing your entire ground army to a recall and not even remacroing it, then not doing anything with those carriers. game 5 was just the bbs. it wasnt him playing bad, it was just bad luck he chose that build and lacked scouting. not scouting and not building any zealots/dragoons until your opponent has an army in your base is pretty bad. A bit more than just bad luck. Read the part where i say it was the build choice. There are plenty of people here who are saying you cut a goon to get the second gateway and range. To add insult to injury, he tried to proxy as well which made it even worse. Thats not being bad, its having a BO loss while even going greedy with the proxy and not scouting. Bad would be the carrier control in game 4
What was BeSt's game-plan in G5? Seems rather unconventional, going double gateway, skipping zeal for dragoon upgrade, and rushing for some quick tech. What was his build hoping to counter, and weak against? Was his build as risky as Sea's BBS?
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All the people scared of a stomp in the finals: Sea trained with Flash for this tournament. He's probably got less of a chance of getting stomped than anyone else.
Best has great TvP but there's no way whatsoever with play like he showed today he could beat Flash. There's just not that kind of room for error with recalls for example - Flash doesn't leave dead zones where there are no mines for someone to blind recall into. Likewise some of the brain farts that Best had throughout the various games (even the ones he won) will typically sink you immediately vs his TvP. You can't beat Flash just by having great mechanics and Best, while showing off some really good mind games vs. Sea, also showed some lapses in judgment and timing that are super exploitable by God.
Looking at the games with Guemchi, outside of G1 and failing to research Recall G-chizzle didn't really make any mental mistakes and had excellent timing with his engages. His recalls still did nothing and he obviously doesn't have quite the macro of Best but he made much, much better choices - and still got 3-1ed pretty cleanly, despite putting up a hell of a fight.
TvT is a little less punishing for individual judgment errors due to the scope and speed of armies so while an unpolished player like Sea is probably completely boned in a Bo5 I would expect there to be a lot more back and forth in the individual games.
edit: Holy moley i forgot how salty SKT protoss fans get after a loss
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