On January 20 2017 19:17 darktreb wrote:Does it really make sense to point to "~3rd best ZvT player struggled to win standard games against the person who is by far the best TvZ player" as evidence??
That's not the whole evidence though. Show me single game where Flash lost a standard TvZ in the last 3 months (and not obviously distracted by chat or not taking the game seriously). In the Kespa era there was at least hope for the Zerg to reach the lategame, but with the current mech switch that is off the table as well.
Flash, and to some extent Last, will just shut you out of the game if you play standard against them. Getting that third up is a nightmare. Zergs are relegated to funky tactics and cheese to try and catch the T off guard ever since TvZ was more or less perfected by Flash in the current era.
On January 20 2017 19:17 darktreb wrote:Does it really make sense to point to "~3rd best ZvT player struggled to win standard games against the person who is by far the best TvZ player" as evidence??
That's not the whole evidence though. Show me single game where Flash lost a standard TvZ in the last 3 months (and not obviously distracted by chat or not taking the game seriously). In the Kespa era there was at least hope for the Zerg to reach the lategame, but with the current mech switch that is off the table as well.
Flash, and to some extent Last, will just shut you out of the game if you play standard against them. Getting that third up is a nightmare. Zergs are relegated to funky tactics and cheese to try and catch the T off guard ever since TvZ was more or less perfected by Flash in the current era.
On January 20 2017 19:17 darktreb wrote:Does it really make sense to point to "~3rd best ZvT player struggled to win standard games against the person who is by far the best TvZ player" as evidence??
That's not the whole evidence though. Show me single game where Flash lost a standard TvZ in the last 3 months (and not obviously distracted by chat or not taking the game seriously). In the Kespa era there was at least hope for the Zerg to reach the lategame, but with the current mech switch that is off the table as well.
Flash, and to some extent Last, will just shut you out of the game if you play standard against them. Getting that third up is a nightmare. Zergs are relegated to funky tactics and cheese to try and catch the T off guard ever since TvZ was more or less perfected by Flash in the current era.
On January 20 2017 19:17 darktreb wrote:Does it really make sense to point to "~3rd best ZvT player struggled to win standard games against the person who is by far the best TvZ player" as evidence??
That's not the whole evidence though. Show me single game where Flash lost a standard TvZ in the last 3 months (and not obviously distracted by chat or not taking the game seriously). In the Kespa era there was at least hope for the Zerg to reach the lategame, but with the current mech switch that is off the table as well.
Flash, and to some extent Last, will just shut you out of the game if you play standard against them. Getting that third up is a nightmare. Zergs are relegated to funky tactics and cheese to try and catch the T off guard ever since TvZ was more or less perfected by Flash in the current era.
He said not distracted by chat... Sheesh, some people can't read
Flash cant see the chat screen while hes playing. That's not how afreeca streaming works.
On another note, all this tvz imbalance talk is really stupid. Such a small sample of players and number of games. The fact remains, whoever plays best will win the game. Not who has the "best" race.
On January 20 2017 19:17 darktreb wrote:Does it really make sense to point to "~3rd best ZvT player struggled to win standard games against the person who is by far the best TvZ player" as evidence??
That's not the whole evidence though. Show me single game where Flash lost a standard TvZ in the last 3 months (and not obviously distracted by chat or not taking the game seriously). In the Kespa era there was at least hope for the Zerg to reach the lategame, but with the current mech switch that is off the table as well.
Flash, and to some extent Last, will just shut you out of the game if you play standard against them. Getting that third up is a nightmare. Zergs are relegated to funky tactics and cheese to try and catch the T off guard ever since TvZ was more or less perfected by Flash in the current era.
Not sure if trolling or really lazy to do some research. If you watch Flash's youtube channel he loses plenty of late game TvZs to Hero and Effort. And those were him going 5 rax.
Also did you watch the ASL group match Last vs Hero where it was 5 rax vs 3 hatch muta, Hero defended it and proceeded to win the game.
On January 20 2017 19:17 darktreb wrote:Does it really make sense to point to "~3rd best ZvT player struggled to win standard games against the person who is by far the best TvZ player" as evidence??
That's not the whole evidence though. Show me single game where Flash lost a standard TvZ in the last 3 months (and not obviously distracted by chat or not taking the game seriously). In the Kespa era there was at least hope for the Zerg to reach the lategame, but with the current mech switch that is off the table as well.
Flash, and to some extent Last, will just shut you out of the game if you play standard against them. Getting that third up is a nightmare. Zergs are relegated to funky tactics and cheese to try and catch the T off guard ever since TvZ was more or less perfected by Flash in the current era.
Regardless, bw has always balanced through maps. If it is the case that zergs are getting rolled non stop and they cant adapt, maps will be made for the ASL, inevitably, that are abusive against certain aspects of terran, favouring zerg again. Its an intentional process, and I dont think they will forgo introducing new maps in this era, and, popular OSL type maps will inevitably hit the ladder as well.
On January 20 2017 19:17 darktreb wrote:Does it really make sense to point to "~3rd best ZvT player struggled to win standard games against the person who is by far the best TvZ player" as evidence??
That's not the whole evidence though. Show me single game where Flash lost a standard TvZ in the last 3 months (and not obviously distracted by chat or not taking the game seriously). In the Kespa era there was at least hope for the Zerg to reach the lategame, but with the current mech switch that is off the table as well.
Flash, and to some extent Last, will just shut you out of the game if you play standard against them. Getting that third up is a nightmare. Zergs are relegated to funky tactics and cheese to try and catch the T off guard ever since TvZ was more or less perfected by Flash in the current era.
Pretty sure this ASL could have filled that venue also tbh, Afreeca just went with a criminally undersized studio. Tastosis said as much in their cast, that the current BW fanbase in Korea is just as big as during the glory days.
ASL2 semifinals had more online viewers than any other StarCraft tournament ever, including SC2.
Pretty sure this ASL could have filled that venue also tbh, Afreeca just went with a criminally undersized studio. Tastosis said as much in their cast, that the current BW fanbase in Korea is just as big as during the glory days.
ASL2 semifinals had more online viewers than any other StarCraft tournament ever, including SC2.
Do they have any hard data to back up the popularity claim? As for the viewer numbers, it's impossible to compare it with BW at its peak because then it was mainly watched on the TV, not online.
On January 20 2017 19:17 darktreb wrote:Does it really make sense to point to "~3rd best ZvT player struggled to win standard games against the person who is by far the best TvZ player" as evidence??
That's not the whole evidence though. Show me single game where Flash lost a standard TvZ in the last 3 months (and not obviously distracted by chat or not taking the game seriously). In the Kespa era there was at least hope for the Zerg to reach the lategame, but with the current mech switch that is off the table as well.
Flash, and to some extent Last, will just shut you out of the game if you play standard against them. Getting that third up is a nightmare. Zergs are relegated to funky tactics and cheese to try and catch the T off guard ever since TvZ was more or less perfected by Flash in the current era.
I think its a cycle. I cant count how many times Ive watched professional Bw and thought that a matchup/strat/unit is imbalanced, only for things to turn around. It might take months or even a year, but it will happen. And the greatest players have always been the ones who have turned match ups upside down. Even having said that though, and even though Flash himself has said that 5rax is quite strong nowadays, too little credit is given to flash. I know it is hard to not belittle someone when the post is arguing about imbalance (which is ok to discuss even though it is such a minefield), but at least show some effort.
How did I belittle Flash lol. I said he basically perfected TvZ. He's making the absolute most out of what he is given, it's just that his pieces are a little bit better. Like playing white in Chess.
Exactly. When you say someone achieved something because they had an "advantage", you belittle all the sacrifice, hard work, and effort that they have put in to get to where they are.
On January 19 2017 18:47 Jae Zedong wrote: It's hilarous how a top Zerg literally cannot win a standard game against a top Terran unless the Terran misplays. Every game that was standard, Flash won handily. Only games JD won were a cheesy hydra all-in and a highly non-standard lurker drop into Flash going full dropship. Jaedong has been handicapped by the ZvT matchup his entire career. His talent is on par with Flash, but because the game works against him in ZvT Flash has won far more.
I'm not much for tinkering with balance, but if I had to make one change it would be to lower the HP of medics to 40. It would allow for more more effective medic sniping (akin to thrilling templar sniping) while not affecting the TvP matchup at all.
- Effort has a winning record against Flash in Dec 2016 (8-7) - Flash returned to BW longer than JD - The head to head score between Flash and Jaedong during the KeSPA era was 25-24 in maps, 6-4 in series
This is Flash we are talking about against JD who just came back in November. Please do some research before whining about balance.
Can we be real for a second? Anybody who has been around long enough to remember those games will remember that they largely match the narrative Jae Zedong is presenting. If Jaedong won it was often because the game lasted less than fifteen minutes. Flash's games against Effort are an even better example. I don't know what they look like now, but do you remember the first game Flash played against Effort in Proleague after Effort won the gold? That game was so non-standard people were saying things like "is this what it takes to beat Flash?"
I think it's well accepted in pro circles that the game isn't as perfectly balanced as fans like to pretend. Of course nobody is perfect so saying "only if they misplay" is like saying "only if they play". But Jaedong and Flash are about as close as it gets, and I vividly remember how frustratingly predictable their games were, even when they were in their primes.
I think people deny imbalances nowadays more in order to make BW not appear 'weak' in comparison to some other RTS often cited in this very community. However such low level of argumentation is silly.
BW balance is not perfect. However it is remarkably not that imbalanced, given the complexity of the game. If you look at all the other RTS games, it is by a huge margin the most balanced game ever. However this doesn't mean it is perfectly balanced.
Also ASL2 map pool is imbalanced for the midgame zvt, since a third is hard to take because of the wide chokes. I'd preferred FS just because of the choke, even if all of you are sick of it.
Historically, imbalances in BW have mostly been map-dependend. Sure BW is not perfectly balanced. But it's inherent balance is so good that the remaining imbalances can "easily" be come by map design. That said, we haven't fully understand what map design leans the map in favour of a certain match-up. But that can be tested. It also might require meta-game shifts. So yeah FS was historically balanced during KeSPA while we had maps during the Savior era that really played in the hands of the terrans at that time. FS seems to be imbalanced post-KeSPA. I think it's not the fault of the map but more because players got worse and the meta shifted because of that. I think a big part of FS not being balanced anymore is because zerg players' muta micro got worse which enabled terrans to rush to the easily accessible third much quicker. That gave them an enormous boost for the late game.
On January 19 2017 18:47 Jae Zedong wrote: It's hilarous how a top Zerg literally cannot win a standard game against a top Terran unless the Terran misplays. Every game that was standard, Flash won handily. Only games JD won were a cheesy hydra all-in and a highly non-standard lurker drop into Flash going full dropship. Jaedong has been handicapped by the ZvT matchup his entire career. His talent is on par with Flash, but because the game works against him in ZvT Flash has won far more.
I'm not much for tinkering with balance, but if I had to make one change it would be to lower the HP of medics to 40. It would allow for more more effective medic sniping (akin to thrilling templar sniping) while not affecting the TvP matchup at all.
- Effort has a winning record against Flash in Dec 2016 (8-7) - Flash returned to BW longer than JD - The head to head score between Flash and Jaedong during the KeSPA era was 25-24 in maps, 6-4 in series
This is Flash we are talking about against JD who just came back in November. Please do some research before whining about balance.
Can we be real for a second? Anybody who has been around long enough to remember those games will remember that they largely match the narrative Jae Zedong is presenting. If Jaedong won it was often because the game lasted less than fifteen minutes. Flash's games against Effort are an even better example. I don't know what they look like now, but do you remember the first game Flash played against Effort in Proleague after Effort won the gold? That game was so non-standard people were saying things like "is this what it takes to beat Flash?"
I think it's well accepted in pro circles that the game isn't as perfectly balanced as fans like to pretend. Of course nobody is perfect so saying "only if they misplay" is like saying "only if they play". But Jaedong and Flash are about as close as it gets, and I vividly remember how frustratingly predictable their games were, even when they were in their primes.
After mech switch, Flash was likely the favorite in the standard long game. But I feel like it's well known that JD never mastered the gameplay vs. late mech.
I don't think you can really master playing against 3-3 mech as zerg...
Yea, what I should say is other Zergs were/are significantly better at it, both Kespa era and now.
I was in that studio last month...and no offence, but it's tiny. I watched JD's group and even then it was almost full. People were hyped just because he was there. Atmosphere was great, but i hope they have more seats available for the final.
Nah man. People seem to feel entitled to directing their vitriol at people. Screw that noise. inControl talked a little about that sort thing- it's different when there's a handful of people yelling at you. It's an entirely different thing when it's thousands of people directing their vitriol at you. Angry internet mobs because that's really what it is- an angry mob, is not something that needs a defence.
Have you seen any of NBA finals at any time in the last 5 years? Those stadiums seat 20,000 people. The vast majority of them decided it was a good idea to boo every time LBJ had possession of the ball. Every time. In most of the games, this lasted into the second quarter before they gave up, but would pick back up whenever he went to the free throw line, or when the game tightened up toward the end.
Lots of players get hate, it's a part of competitive life.
Here's Steph Curry getting his at the championship parade:
This isn't unique to basketball, either.. It happens in football, to Tom Brady for example, who has received maybe the most hate of any QB. Fans are not shy about sharing their opinion of him in whatever way they can.
However, afterward, there is no twitter post which might read,"You know, the hate broadcasted my way by a stadium of 20,000 people, and potentially 100,000,000 worldwide on live TV while I was being recognized for a ifetime of sacrifice and determination really makes me question why I'm doing this."
I see the issue. But what's the alternative? You say people think they're entitled. Sure they are. You say screw that noise. But what do you plan to do about it?
Do you see Esports as different? Perhaps that the prominent and exceptional figures within it should not be subject to the same inherent rigors and scrutinies of their professional athlete contemporaries? If so, why?
I think the only viable option is for Flash and other standout figures in their arenas like them is to develop resiliencies because of these challenges. Every great before them has as will likely every one after. I stand by the statements in my original post.