[ASL4] Ro24 Group F
Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments |
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48897 Posts
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1701 Posts
Hwaiting!! | ||
Last.Midnight
Australia871 Posts
The Protoss master race must prevail. | ||
ortseam
996 Posts
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outscar
2788 Posts
On September 19 2017 11:25 ortseam wrote: Shuttle/hero probably, would like to see FBH advance if he has some ceremony prepared He's going to get naked and jump towards audience. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On September 19 2017 11:29 outscar wrote: Legend of the Fall hwaiting! Shuttle got this no matter what. He's going to get naked and jump towards audience. Welp, time for me to attend the asl once more | ||
usopsama
6502 Posts
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THE Sliggy
Australia65 Posts
On September 19 2017 13:30 usopsama wrote: This is the group of death. Is FBH a legit talent or just a meme? Asking out of genuine curiosity. I've been out of the scene for a minute. | ||
739
Bearded Elder29873 Posts
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sixfour
England11060 Posts
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valaki
Hungary2476 Posts
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orvinreyes
577 Posts
heart: shuttle, FBH | ||
usopsama
6502 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3077 Posts
Poll: Winner of Game 1? Shuttle (7) Firebathero (1) 8 total votes Your vote: Winner of Game 1? Poll: Winner of Game 2? Hero (6) Snow (2) 8 total votes Your vote: Winner of Game 2? I'll try not to spoil results if I do more polls. Might put them in spoilers. | ||
PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
My heart says, FBH can figure something out and go through in second place. He would have to beat Snow, though. | ||
oEkY
Germany641 Posts
Hero > Snow Shuttle > Hero Snow > FBH Snow > Hero imo Allthough i hope im wrong, cause i wanna see some nice FBH-celebrations | ||
ShloobeR
Korea (South)3802 Posts
Shuttle > FBH Hero > Snow Hero > Shuttle Snow > FBH Shuttle > Snow | ||
CoL_DarkstaR
Germany649 Posts
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Jenia6109
Russian Federation1607 Posts
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Jae Zedong
407 Posts
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1701 Posts
On September 19 2017 14:16 THE Sliggy wrote: Is FBH a legit talent or just a meme? Asking out of genuine curiosity. I've been out of the scene for a minute. FBH was a solid A class player. Great TvZ and obviously a great TvTer if uve evr seen his games against Flash. Like most terrans, he's held back by his TvP, especially vs top tier tosses. He's one of the older gamers, kinda like Stork, so I would think age is catching up to him. And I haven't seen him play in forever. I dont watch streams though, just tourneys. | ||
Glioburd
France1900 Posts
Go go go ! | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9627 Posts
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D_lux
Hungary60 Posts
Also yesterday many people commented in the thread about what was happening in the game. It was really good to read that as I can't watch the games live. Thanks! | ||
Angra
United States2652 Posts
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RHoudini
Belgium3626 Posts
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EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
http://play.afreecatv.com/aslenglish2 | ||
PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
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THE Sliggy
Australia65 Posts
Can I just say I'm so happy to be watching pro Brood War in 2017? Still hard to believe. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48897 Posts
On September 19 2017 19:01 EsportsJohn wrote: FlashFTW and I are LIVE! Tune in for some sweet analysis and light banter about how much roommates suck. http://play.afreecatv.com/aslenglish2 I don't know why streams are still not being automatically attached to the event | ||
739
Bearded Elder29873 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48897 Posts
On September 19 2017 19:02 THE Sliggy wrote: LET'S GOOOOOO!!! Can I just say I'm so happy to be watching pro Brood War in 2017? Still hard to believe. thats what I thought in late 2014 then in 2015 and 2016. | ||
PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
Shuttle in slippers, like he's just going to sit in front of his computer at home to crush another KCM race wars, displays a lot of confidence on his part. I would be probably even more surprised if he didn't make it out than by Best exiting y-day. | ||
PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
On September 19 2017 19:05 BLinD-RawR wrote: thats what I thought in late 2014 then in 2015 and 2016. This so much. | ||
RHoudini
Belgium3626 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
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TT1
Canada9925 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
Gold Rush. Shuttle at 5 o'clock. FBH at 12 o'clock. | ||
Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
Edit: oh wait, that never made it into the map review Gold Rush I love this map. Creative, strange, and extremely harrassable. This will lead to interesting games... and complete walk overs where someone has not prepared for a certain style of craziness. Training partners on this map will be very important. Not in simply practicing versus the best player with the most skill, but simply needing to play many different players and styles. There are so many potential weird openings or harass that can occur, that you need to play against a lot of players who try lots of different things to know what to watch out for. Harass and drop-play will be the order of the day. There is no Overlord or Dropship in this tournament. As such there is only one player who will forever remain undefeated on this map. Thy name is Shuttle. | ||
TT1
Canada9925 Posts
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739
Bearded Elder29873 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
Meanwhile Shuttle on three bases. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48897 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
It's a game of drops now. | ||
NoS-Craig
Australia3077 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
Now Shuttle cleans an scv line with huge storm drops. | ||
Ej_
47656 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48897 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3077 Posts
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THE Sliggy
Australia65 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48897 Posts
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RHoudini
Belgium3626 Posts
On September 19 2017 19:17 Legionnaire wrote: Harass and drop-play will be the order of the day. There is no Overlord or Dropship in this tournament. As such there is only one player who will forever remain undefeated on this map. Thy name is Shuttle. So far so good. | ||
Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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tanngard
Norway1321 Posts
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THE Sliggy
Australia65 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48897 Posts
On September 19 2017 19:37 tanngard wrote: The zoom out feature takes away from the suspens and the intensity of the battles. You can even hear it in tastosis voices, that they are spending more brainpower in deciding what to focus on and dealing with the fact that they dont know that what they are looking at is the same that everyone else is looking at. Its a mess and this is what happens when people trust too much in what seems to be logical conclusions - "off course its better to see more off the battle then less of it, of couuuurse, DUUHH" On September 19 2017 19:39 THE Sliggy wrote: I love that observers can zoom out now. lol | ||
tanngard
Norway1321 Posts
On September 19 2017 19:39 THE Sliggy wrote: I love that observers can zoom out now. I'm curious at what the ratio between the people who like and the people that dont. Because changing how a televised sport is spectated on the screen matters a great deal and should not be changed without even having a debate or poll on it. | ||
CoL_DarkstaR
Germany649 Posts
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739
Bearded Elder29873 Posts
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TT1
Canada9925 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3077 Posts
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
Snow is so dead | ||
TT1
Canada9925 Posts
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Silentenigma
Turkey2037 Posts
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CoL_DarkstaR
Germany649 Posts
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
Shame. Want a zerg to go through (hero is the best Z atm from my understanding so definitely interested), Snow is my favourite toss when i was watching back in '11, and firebathero is in the fucking group. Just don't want shuttle going in - just indifferent. Hope snow looks better next game. | ||
739
Bearded Elder29873 Posts
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48897 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States9627 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3077 Posts
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tanngard
Norway1321 Posts
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
On September 19 2017 19:49 FlaShFTW wrote: and hero wins with 3 zerglings. here, 3 zerlings 1:0 Snow | ||
Ej_
47656 Posts
On September 19 2017 19:49 coolprogrammingstuff wrote: (hero is the best Z atm from my understanding so definitely interested) He isn't even in the top 4. | ||
letian
Germany4221 Posts
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asel
Germany1597 Posts
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
Reminds me of trying to 1 gate open against JulyZerg... T_T at least that only ever happened in practice... and noone knows about it | ||
tanngard
Norway1321 Posts
On September 19 2017 19:43 739 wrote: The zoom out is especially effective in TvT games like Rush vs Mind, so you can see what's going on in different points of the map. But you cannot focus on more than one thing at the time. Thats why a good observer used to watch the minimap for us and change the screen accordingly to give us a full picture. Now we have to do that work ourselves and this leads the brain to be less focused so as to take in more information at the time. | ||
pinkbowtie1
23 Posts
soz | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9627 Posts
yeah i was about to say... snow literally made hero look like 2009-2010 jaedong lol. Jaedong, Soulkey, Larva, Effort are all better zergs than hero right now. His ZvT is crap again, ZvZ is a coin flip, and his ZvP isn't even a sure win anymore against protoss. | ||
TT1
Canada9925 Posts
On September 19 2017 19:50 tanngard wrote: How nervous is snow playing offline? He completely fell apart to 3 zerglings.. It's not that he fell apart to the lings, usually when z has 3 speedlings in ur main that early the game's over. The problem was he looked unbelievably sloppy leading up to that point. His first 3 zeals weren't micro'd well at all, his cannon was way too late and he didnt even block his front to deny the lings from running in. Add to that the fact that he an idle probe at the start of the game (when tastosis said the probe was spotting the ovi as a joke) and he lost like 3 workers (with 2 idle workers next to his nexus) to 1 slow ling.. wasn't pretty at all. | ||
fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3954 Posts
On September 19 2017 19:53 FlaShFTW wrote: yeah i was about to say... snow literally made hero look like 2009-2010 jaedong lol. Jaedong, Soulkey, Larva, Effort are all better zergs than hero right now. His ZvT is crap again, ZvZ is a coin flip, and his ZvP isn't even a sure win anymore against protoss. what about Killer and Shine? | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9627 Posts
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oEkY
Germany641 Posts
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
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tanngard
Norway1321 Posts
On September 19 2017 19:54 TT1 wrote: It's not that he fell apart to the lings, usually when z has 3 speedlings in ur main that early the games over. The problem was he looked unbelievably sloppy leading up to that point. His first 3 zeals weren't micro'd well at all, his cannon was way too late and he didnt even block his front to deny the lings from running in. Add to that the fact that he an idle probe at the start of the game (when tastosis said the probe was spotting the ovi as a joke) and he lost like 3 workers (with 2 idle workers next to his nexus) to 1 slow ling.. wasn't pretty at all. Yeah, its a real shame his nerves is showing like this because from watching his stream he is able to play a mean pvz for sure. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9627 Posts
Killer doesn't have enough games for me to make a solidified judgement. if it was 2014-15 killer, then yes he would be better than current form hero. Shine is another weird one, I think hes about even with hero. his bag of builds is great but overall his mechanics arent as good as heros. | ||
Ej_
47656 Posts
On September 19 2017 19:57 Arvendilin wrote: Btw whatever happened to Zero? Army service. | ||
PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
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Arvendilin
Germany1878 Posts
Ahh too bad, hope he will be back soon, his games were always super fucking fun! :D | ||
PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
Shuttle will counter it with 2 star corsairs | ||
PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3077 Posts
Great win for Shuttle though. I'm expecting great things from him in the Ro16. | ||
TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
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oEkY
Germany641 Posts
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aya888888
29 Posts
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tanngard
Norway1321 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:10 reminisce12 wrote: dirty dirty protosses I dont think zergs should speak up against dirtyness in zvp | ||
PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:12 oEkY wrote: I just dont understand why Shuttle should be #20 in this times ASL Power Rank... i would be really surprised if he doesnt qualify for the Ro8 (depending on his next group obviously) That's a good point. By the way, has anyone compiled how many of the rankings did prove correct? | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9627 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:14 PVJ wrote: That's a good point. By the way, has anyone compiled how many of the rankings did prove correct? a lot of us overlooked his KCM matches. ever since ASL1 he hasnt really performed well in tournaments so to mock our PR after the fact is not a good way to make an argument. Maybe let us know this stuff when the PR comes out then look like a genius when it actually happens :D | ||
RHoudini
Belgium3626 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:14 PVJ wrote: That's a good point. By the way, has anyone compiled how many of the rankings did prove correct? The goal of a Power Rank is not to be correct, it's to ignite a discussion. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9627 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:18 RHoudini wrote: The goal of a Power Rank is not to be correct, it's to ignite a discussion. also with bo1s theres a lot more volatility for people advancing. which is good, i like that and i enjoy being wrong in PRs because it shows surprises and not the same players making the ro8 every time. | ||
oEkY
Germany641 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:14 PVJ wrote: That's a good point. By the way, has anyone compiled how many of the rankings did prove correct? yeah, i got a nerdy excel-sheet for this season Killer #21 > Sky #19 and Light #11 sSak #14 / Stork #17 > Last #2 Rain #12 / Mong #16 > Best #9 Shuttle #20 > Snow #13 / Hero #15 if you just look at their advancing to the next stage, not at their played games against each other (in some cases both ways would be correct, i.e. sSak and Stork beaten Last) | ||
Skybrod
Russian Federation19 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:16 FlaShFTW wrote: a lot of us overlooked his KCM matches. ever since ASL1 he hasnt really performed well in tournaments so to mock our PR after the fact is not a good way to make an argument. Maybe let us know this stuff when the PR comes out then look like a genius when it actually happens :D Well, I think his ranking maybe was a bit low, but not much. Apart from KCM he did not do particularly well in sponmatches which are probably a more reliable way of determining a player's level than a couple of BO1s. I did not look into his stats very carefully, but he has been on average #17 for the past few months. | ||
ajmer
Poland27 Posts
Group A Killer #21 - qualified Larva #6 - qualified Light #11 Sky #19 Group B sSak #14 - qualified Stork #17 - qualified Last #2 MisO #28 Group C EffOrt #5 - qualified Mind #7 - qualified Rush #24 Lazy #27 Group E Mong #16 - qualified Rain #12 - qualified Best #9 Ample #25 | ||
NoS-Craig
Australia3077 Posts
Poll: Recommend Game 3? Winners match No (7) Yes (3) If you have time (3) 13 total votes Your vote: Recommend Game 3? Winners match Didn't see a poll up yet. | ||
Ziggy
South Korea2103 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
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GTR
51126 Posts
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r.Evo
Germany14054 Posts
e: Jinxed it. | ||
Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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Terrorbladder
2661 Posts
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neutralrobot
Australia1025 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands20700 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:32 neutralrobot wrote: Man, this stream is dropping out way too much for me. Have to duck out. Nobody else having issues? smooth as butter here | ||
Silentenigma
Turkey2037 Posts
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3077 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6297 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:32 neutralrobot wrote: Man, this stream is dropping out way too much for me. Have to duck out. Nobody else having issues? make sure u watch quality High and not source | ||
Murchaldo
18 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:30 Morbidius wrote: What is it about this map that brings out all the stupid builds?? A variety of things. A Bo1 format encourages interesting builds, a 2 player map encourages proxies and unique timing attacks, and an easy 3rd gas changes the dynamic of a most matchups significantly. | ||
PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:16 FlaShFTW wrote: a lot of us overlooked his KCM matches. ever since ASL1 he hasnt really performed well in tournaments so to mock our PR after the fact is not a good way to make an argument. Maybe let us know this stuff when the PR comes out then look like a genius when it actually happens :D No one is mocking it, I'm just interested in the numbers. Like, I wouldn't have guessed that it's not Last and Stork going through but Ssak. Same with Best. But I would have ranked Shuttle higher. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9627 Posts
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ig0tfish
United States345 Posts
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Levque
88 Posts
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traxamillion
104 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States9627 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:35 PVJ wrote: No one is mocking it, I'm just interested in the numbers. Like, I wouldn't have guessed that it's not Last and Stork going through but Ssak. Same with Best. But I would have ranked Shuttle higher. you should also consider that the PR is done before groups are released. which means that including stuff like bad matchups like snow's PvZ could make or break a group where normally on average, his other matchups are fantastic and easily good enough to make it to the round of 8, but because of bad draws like this group for example, hes much more pressed to make it out. PRs involve a ton of variables, and unique maps like gold rush and crossing field also add to a more volatile PR. | ||
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1701 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:33 Breach_hu wrote: why would FBH try to hold it at the natural there, just give it up and expand with enough tanks... Yeah Artosis nailed it when he commented on how hard FBH wants to get that natural up. Ofc we have the benefit of seeing how much Snow was investing in this attack. But yeah, he could have easily gave up that base, saved his scvs from dying, and forced Snow to try and get up that ramp if he wanted to get any real damage done. And even before that, after he miraculously held the initial attack, had he not been greedy and kept scvs ready to repair the bunker, he would have held the natural, and snow would have been in a nigh unwinnable position. Ahhhh, too bad FBH, maybe next time... | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9627 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:35 ig0tfish wrote: he saw that proxy pylon and did nothing because he thought it was just a scouting pylon. if he saw a probe near it he mightve tried to kill it, but how often do you see the pylon and have protoss go back and proxy 3 gates there? | ||
PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:37 FlaShFTW wrote: you should also consider that the PR is done before groups are released. which means that including stuff like bad matchups like snow's PvZ could make or break a group where normally on average, his other matchups are fantastic and easily good enough to make it to the round of 8, but because of bad draws like this group for example, hes much more pressed to make it out. PRs involve a ton of variables, and unique maps like gold rush and crossing field also add to a more volatile PR. These are exactly the reasons why I wouldn't mock it even if it sounded like that. It's great you guys put it together and we can argue. But then I'm also interested in how the ranked players do, exactly to measure such things as volatility of groups and maps. Also, consider that the PR is doing pretty well. | ||
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6297 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:38 FlaShFTW wrote: because he thought it was just a scouting pylon. if he saw a probe near it he mightve tried to kill it, but how often do you see the pylon and have protoss go back and proxy 3 gates there? nice joke flashuuuuu :D | ||
PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States9627 Posts
im serious though. how often do you see that? obviously shouldve sent a marine back up there to kill it but that's hindsight. | ||
letian
Germany4221 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:38 FlaShFTW wrote: because he thought it was just a scouting pylon. if he saw a probe near it he mightve tried to kill it, but how often do you see the pylon and have protoss go back and proxy 3 gates there? It was still an unusual place for a such an early scouting pylon and he could send an scv just in case. | ||
PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:38 FlaShFTW wrote: because he thought it was just a scouting pylon. if he saw a probe near it he mightve tried to kill it, but how often do you see the pylon and have protoss go back and proxy 3 gates there? Also, Snow hid the probe and went back with it. | ||
NoS-Craig
Australia3077 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48897 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:23 ajmer wrote: Let's check with the Power Rank so far: Group A Killer #21 - qualified Larva #6 - qualified Light #11 Sky #19 Group B sSak #14 - qualified Stork #17 - qualified Last #2 MisO #28 Group C EffOrt #5 - qualified Mind #7 - qualified Rush #24 Lazy #27 Group E Mong #16 - qualified Rain #12 - qualified Best #9 Ample #25 its not a bad distribution by any means with BeSt and Last being the only outliers | ||
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6297 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:41 FlaShFTW wrote: im serious though. how often do you see that? obviously shouldve sent a marine back up there to kill it but that's hindsight. if that was serious then im sorry,that was not one scout pylon,u see it very often with proxy robot faster reaver harass etc,or just the gateways | ||
ortseam
996 Posts
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TT1
Canada9925 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3077 Posts
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PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
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Breach_hu
Hungary2431 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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ajmer
Poland27 Posts
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traxamillion
104 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States9627 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3077 Posts
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Rococo
United States331 Posts
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Silentenigma
Turkey2037 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3077 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3954 Posts
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Zealgoon
China178 Posts
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TT1
Canada9925 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:50 Silentenigma wrote: I hate 3 hatch hydra bust.So hard to stop, impossible to scout initial probe has to stay in z's main, at the very least u need a probe out on the map to scout what theyre making out of their hatches | ||
traxamillion
104 Posts
The bust is stronger vs gate 1st than forge. I think forge 1st is a better open tbh | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9627 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:52 Zealgoon wrote: LOL, FlashFTW got 5/5 with his predictions again :o im the prophet. you mere mortals know nothing. | ||
TT1
Canada9925 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:53 traxamillion wrote: Well that is why the made a map like gold rush so p can always scout. Toss can also leave a random probe on the map and bring it to the nat/3rd and check the composition after the zealots get pushed back. The bust is stronger vs gate 1st than forge. I think forge 1st is a better open tbh i think its better vs forge because z has a weaker eco if p goes 1 gate zeal harass. theyre more committed to the hydra attack, harder to transition out of it. | ||
ortseam
996 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:52 TT1 wrote: initial probe has to stay in z's main, at the very least u need a probe out on the map to scout what theyre making out of their hatches You can't scout it with probe, zerg gets speed first against gate expand | ||
TT1
Canada9925 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:57 ortseam wrote: You can't scout it with probe, zerg gets speed first against gate expand you can check for z's lair timing (if you keep your probe inside their main) and speed timing | ||
RowdierBob
Australia12622 Posts
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tanngard
Norway1321 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:57 ortseam wrote: You can't scout it with probe, zerg gets speed first against gate expand So what was Snows plan then? To hope Hero did not go hydra busts lol? What is the strength of going gate expand? | ||
SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1701 Posts
On September 19 2017 20:44 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: if that was serious then im sorry,that was not one scout pylon,u see it very often with proxy robot faster reaver harass etc,or just the gateways Yeah even w/no probe there, I think FBH knew it wasn't just a scout pylon. But seemed like he assumed it was a proxy robo since he was trying to get his turret perimeter up asap. Should have just scouted really... although by that time dragoons might have been containing him... | ||
TT1
Canada9925 Posts
On September 19 2017 21:00 tanngard wrote: So what was Snows plan then? To hope Hero did not go hydra busts lol? What is the strength of going gate opening? zerg has to chase p's zeals with his lings which usually gives p the opportunity to sneak a probe in z's main for a rescout (assuming p's probe left z's main), which he didnt do. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9627 Posts
On September 19 2017 21:00 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: Yeah even w/no probe there, I think FBH knew it wasn't just a scout pylon. But seemed like he assumed it was a proxy robo since he was trying to get his turret perimeter up asap. Should have just scouted really... although by that time dragoons might have been containing him... i guess. idk i feel like without seeing the probe anywhere near the pylon maybe he just thought that snow was building the robo at home. He definitely tried to meta game read Snow's reaver/carrier build although kinda weird to go mnm vs reaver if he thought thats what snow was going for anyways. | ||
orvinreyes
577 Posts
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1701 Posts
On September 19 2017 21:02 FlaShFTW wrote: i guess. idk i feel like without seeing the probe anywhere near the pylon maybe he just thought that snow was building the robo at home. He definitely tried to meta game read Snow's reaver/carrier build although kinda weird to go mnm vs reaver if he thought thats what snow was going for anyways. Wasn't watching it closely enough to see when he committed to the bio build. My sense on a bio build / deep six though is that it should be ok vs reaver play. It's meant to hit hard and fast before protoss macro starts to kick in at a timing that couldn't have been hit if it were standard mech. Nevertheless, going bio on 3 bases was weird imo because it's almost like you no longer try to hit that timing | ||
r33k
Italy3402 Posts
On September 19 2017 21:00 tanngard wrote: So what was Snows plan then? To hope Hero did not go hydra busts lol? What is the strength of going gate expand? Snow's plan was to avoid zergs like always. | ||
tanngard
Norway1321 Posts
On September 19 2017 21:01 TT1 wrote: zerg has to chase p's zeals with his lings which usually gives p the opportunity to sneak a probe in z's main for a rescout (assuming p's probe left z's main), which he didnt do. Thank you. This is what i thought too, but that leaves me perplexed as to why Snow did not immediately send a second probe when his initial one died and when his zealots was keeping the zerglings busy at the ramp. | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
On September 19 2017 21:32 tanngard wrote: Thank you. This is what i thought too, but that leaves me perplexed as to why Snow did not immediately send a second probe when his initial one died and when his zealots was keeping the zerglings busy at the ramp. Protoss players have been failing to scout a lot over the last few months, not sure why. This was an ongoing thing during the last ASL too. | ||
Burned Toast
Canada2040 Posts
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1701 Posts
On September 19 2017 21:53 EsportsJohn wrote: Protoss players have been failing to scout a lot over the last few months, not sure why. This was an ongoing thing during the last ASL too. Shine was very happy this was the case! You'd like to think it has more to do with Z denying scouting than P being lazy, but unfortunately its hard to tell. They have all the apm in the world to try and sneak in probes at any opportunity considering the real threat of dying no matter how good you are | ||
NoS-Craig
Australia3077 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Poll: Recommend Game 3? Winners match No (7) Yes (3) If you have time (3) 13 total votes Your vote: Recommend Game 3? Winners match Poll: Recommend Game 4? Losers match No (11) If you have time (7) Yes (3) 21 total votes Your vote: Recommend Game 4? Losers match | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48897 Posts
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orvinreyes
577 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia314 Posts
On September 19 2017 21:01 TT1 wrote: zerg has to chase p's zeals with his lings which usually gives p the opportunity to sneak a probe in z's main for a rescout (assuming p's probe left z's main), which he didnt do. Even the best Protoss players most of the time don't manage to do this and the reason is simple: it's usually not possible against best Zergs because they see everything with speedlings. Hydra busts are w/o a doubt one of the more stupid things in BW. | ||
LaStScan
Korea (South)1288 Posts
I feel like Snow is more a proleague type player than individual competition. He's super amazing in PvP and PvT(I really can't win his PvT. Maybe 1/10 or 15). I hope Snow can overcome his PvZ one day and do well for the future tournaments. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9627 Posts
On September 20 2017 00:43 LaStScan wrote: Just came back from work. I feel like Snow is more a proleague type player than individual competition. He's super amazing in PvP and PvT(I really can't win his PvT. Maybe 1/10 or 15). I hope Snow can overcome his PvZ one day and do well for the future tournaments. This is what I was scared about when I saw his group. No doubt his pvt is incredible especially with the reaver/carrier build he loves so much, and its a shame we didnt get to see it. | ||
sertas
Sweden811 Posts
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r33k
Italy3402 Posts
On September 20 2017 00:43 LaStScan wrote: Just came back from work. I feel like Snow is more a proleague type player than individual competition. He's super amazing in PvP and PvT(I really can't win his PvT. Maybe 1/10 or 15). I hope Snow can overcome his PvZ one day and do well for the future tournaments. There's this quote about him from Coach Cho that's he'll never be able to shake off about him being the greatest talent he's discovered since Xellos. The Dreamleagues that prompted that judgement were the old ones where 85% of the player pools were terrans, half of them using the ID Mong and Snow was just feeding on them. Coach Cho and CJ were always proleague focused too, Movie was effectively a HBR bot and SKyHigh has more TvTs in the KEspA era than the other two matchups combined. It's also very possible that Snow's development as a player was cut midway by the Hite merger and by the SC2 proleague bullshit. But you don't make your PvT debut shitting on Flash if you don't have something in the tank. | ||
duke91
Germany1458 Posts
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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jtan
Sweden5891 Posts
Same thing yesterday, would have been cool to see ample's ghosts against actual fast carriers, and rains corsairs vs standard terran play. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9627 Posts
On September 20 2017 03:52 Alpha-NP- wrote: Is Jaedong really as rusty as people say he is? People think he gonna lose im his group? I'm surprised. NEver forget when hiya eliminated him from the OSL in groups lol. Anything can happen with hiya and mini in the group. Mini has always been a thorn in the side of top players | ||
TT1
Canada9925 Posts
On September 20 2017 00:41 Rainalcar wrote: Even the best Protoss players most of the time don't manage to do this and the reason is simple: it's usually not possible against best Zergs because they see everything with speedlings. Hydra busts are w/o a doubt one of the more stupid things in BW. zerg doesnt have speed by the time you go in for your rescout, this usually happens when you're harassing with 3 zeals vs slow lings. you sneak back in to check for gas/lair timings. | ||
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On September 20 2017 03:52 Alpha-NP- wrote: Is Jaedong really as rusty as people say he is? People think he gonna lose im his group? I'm surprised. He's not as bad as people say he is, but he's definitely not top top shape right now. Even I (A huge jaedong fan) would give the advantage to almost the other player if their a top top player like Last/Flash/Bisu/Stork/Larva/Mong/etc. In his group I feel like he should advance, but nothings ever 100% and last time I saw mini and jaedong play I want to say mini beat him a lot (I may be wrong, so don't take what I said as fact). | ||
Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
On September 20 2017 02:41 r33k wrote: There's this quote about him from Coach Cho that's he'll never be able to shake off about him being the greatest talent he's discovered since Xellos. The Dreamleagues that prompted that judgement were the old ones where 85% of the player pools were terrans, half of them using the ID Mong and Snow was just feeding on them. Coach Cho and CJ were always proleague focused too, Movie was effectively a HBR bot and SKyHigh has more TvTs in the KEspA era than the other two matchups combined. It's also very possible that Snow's development as a player was cut midway by the Hite merger and by the SC2 proleague bullshit. But you don't make your PvT debut shitting on Flash if you don't have something in the tank. SKyHigh was a wonder to watch play TvT. Infact, with all of the really famous pros back then (even Really) in proleague, all of them played some incredible TvTs together. Even Upmagic had amazing TvT to watch. | ||
orvinreyes
577 Posts
On September 20 2017 03:52 Alpha-NP- wrote: Is Jaedong really as rusty as people say he is? People think he gonna lose im his group? I'm surprised. win rates in spon matches (September 2017): vT: 46% vP: 47% vZ: 50% v Sharp: 67% v Mini: 43% v HiyA: ? i'd give him 50/50 chance of getting through just because he's JD | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9627 Posts
And then he almost lost to tossgirl lol | ||
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 20 2017 09:11 FlaShFTW wrote: And then he almost lost to tossgirl lol UpMagic was probably one of the most disportionately talented terran players to have ever played the game. His strategical prowess was off the charts, but his actual fundamentals compared to the other top terran players of his time was severely lacking. Certainly one of the most interesting characters the game has had, in my opinion. He does boast a superior head-to-head record versus Flash, by a score of three to one. The only terran in history that can claim that trivia. | ||
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On September 19 2017 22:36 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: Theres really nothing complex about this: People fail to scout because they want to cut corners and make a few extra bucks, the same reason protoss players often open with only one cannon rather than two, even though it exposes them to risk. You thread the needle so you can win games, sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesnt, sometimes you play safe anyway. He gambled and lost.Shine was very happy this was the case! You'd like to think it has more to do with Z denying scouting than P being lazy, but unfortunately its hard to tell. They have all the apm in the world to try and sneak in probes at any opportunity considering the real threat of dying no matter how good you are | ||
Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On September 20 2017 02:34 sertas wrote: its actually the number one thing i hate about bw is the stupid hydra busts that keep killing protoss all the time all these years it just doesnt end Well if you played zerg you'd complain about storm so. There still are BO losses in BW, tho they're mostly mitigated by having more information. On September 20 2017 09:28 Letmelose wrote: UpMagic was probably one of the most disportionately talented terran players to have ever played the game. His strategical prowess was off the charts, but his actual fundamentals compared to the other top terran players of his time was severely lacking. Certainly one of the most interesting characters the game has had, in my opinion. He does boast a superior head-to-head record versus Flash, by a score of three to one. The only terran in history that can claim that trivia. The Sin Heuiseung was my favorite terran player to watch. I started watching pro StarCraft right after the peak of the Ma Jaeyoon, so that one doesn't sting as much, but I really wish UpMaGiC was paid more or something so he didn't have to resort to helping Blizz destroy StarCraft Really wish he had stayed straight and were still around. On the one hand, they all did irreparable damage, but on the other, Jon Jones can get high, go out and brutally assault pregnant women and then flee the scene, and then get a championship match right after, win that match, and then get caught for the fifth time with bull steroids in his system, and the UFC loses little credibility. I guess it's just the different cultures. O well | ||
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 20 2017 11:41 Ancestral wrote: Well if you played zerg you'd complain about storm so. There still are BO losses in BW, tho they're mostly mitigated by having more information. The Sin Heuiseung was my favorite terran player to watch. I started watching pro StarCraft right after the peak of the Ma Jaeyoon, so that one doesn't sting as much, but I really wish UpMaGiC was paid more or something so he didn't have to resort to helping Blizz destroy StarCraft Really wish he had stayed straight and were still around. On the one hand, they all did irreparable damage, but on the other, Jon Jones can get high, go out and brutally assault pregnant women and then flee the scene, and then get a championship match right after, win that match, and then get caught for the fifth time with bull steroids in his system, and the UFC loses little credibility. I guess it's just the different cultures. O well sAviOr and UpMaGiC are totally different cases. sAviOr was actively polluting the scene with his far reaching influence (pressuring others around him to take part in match-fixing), whereas UpMaGiC was simply made to take part in the illegal betting business by betting on his own games. If I remember right, he wasn't trying to match-fix, per se, but thought he could make a some extra money (somewhat understandable given how poorly funded he was by Estro) on the side by betting on his own matches where he wasn't given good odds to win. Unless I'm severely mistaken, I think his harsh punishment could be seen as a collateral damage, of a fragile scene trying desperately to be taken seriously. Professional Brood War was loved by many, but there wasn't a lot of people who were strong enough to protect it. Every hiccup, no matter how trivial, was a major set back that blew away a lot of painstaking progress that was built over many years. Match fixing and illegal betting shortened the life-span of the scene by a significant amount, and after everything was dealt with (with over the top punishments for unfortunate cases like UpMaGiC) the professional scene was no longer seen as the cost-effective method of reaching the Korean youth by the corporations, which lead to even more financial constraints than before. Coupled with the added demands of Blizzard for their intellectual rights, and the hefty legal battles that followed afterwards, the professional Brood War scene was forced to ditch everything that had been built up towards that point. With the professional Brood War scene tainted by the match fixing scandals that was first exposed in April 2010, and both Ongamenet and MBC Game being sued by Blizzard in November 2010, competitive Brood War as a media content took a huge hit in terms of branding. The argument against the scene by those who perceived it as being full of harmful content for the modern youth, filled with criminal activies, and essentially built up on the illegal use of intellectual property was now stronger than ever. Compare the number of domestic individual leagues hosted in 2010, and in 2011. The impact was immediate, and devastating. After less than two years, the most watched content by young Korean males (not just gaming, but for pretty much any content) was gone from television forever, with League of Legends taking its place. Now those young Korean males have grown up, and have jobs now. Brood War is no longer the most popular content anymore, not even amongst spectator e-Sports, but the people who used to be merely pawns in all the overwhelming circumstances of the past, now have the option to support their past heroes on a streaming platform. I'm okay with repaying on my favourite heroes from the past financially, and I don't blame UpMaGiC for what he did. However, I'm not sure if I would be willing to spend my wages supporting his streaming career. I'm sure it would be the same for a lot of other Korean viewers too, and that's the audience he'll have to persuade if he wants to return (not that he wants to). I don't think streamers can make a decent living without the support of the Korean fan base. | ||
Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
From the standpoint of pure human empathy, it's easy to at least understand, if not justify, Sin Heuiseung's actions given his comparatively low salary history, high talent, and the fact that he made his living playing this game. I put the time in to make an account so I can donate on Afreeca, but I'm sure very few Westerners do, so I agree it's a bare fact that streamers make a living based on their Korean audience. I'd definitely watch him play, and in fact I'll admit I'd probably give him some money as long as he was sufficiently contrite. Ma Jaeyun seems, at least from what I have read, to not be nearly sorry enough. And to be realistic, being extremely sorry DOES matter and make a difference. I don't know if you followed the analogy or if you follow fighting at all, but the man I mentioned, Jon Jones, is essentially the most talented player in the history of MMA/UFC. The fact that that he is literally on his fourth or fifth mistake show's that it's just his personality, and he is never going to change. In Heuiseung's case, given the accessible rationale, I personally, not that my opinion matters in particular, would accept his return if he simply acknowledged that he participated in seriously damaging behavior, was a stupid young kid, and shamefully did it all for a quick buck. Unfortunately, as you noted, there's no evidence he wants to come back anyway. | ||
r33k
Italy3402 Posts
That's fucking insane, especially if you consider that the guilty parties were all teenagers and fresh 20 year-olds with no financial consultancy you can see how the cheating route would seem like the only option in sight for the players to seek adequate compensation for their time. To give a further idea of the financial illiteracy of some other top names from the older generation Yellow's been in the mob for literally fucking ever and Nada lost all his money gambling in the "stock market". Connections to criminal life are something very common for Koreans who quickly come across with large sums of money, just look at their reputation all over asia for a point of reference. Whether the timing of the scandal being so close to the blizzard lawsuit breaking KeSPA's back was a coincidence is up for debate and we don't have any definitive information to call, however the same can be said about lots of storylines like Flash's TvT streak. Korean news during the matchfixing investigation mentioned KeSPA having developed advanced methods to detect cheating due to similiar a scenario happening in the past, which nobody had ever heard of. The peak of Flash's legacy got a very large push from the map pool used in the final sanctioned years, and with the scene on average being so balanced there might not have been another bonjwa, a figure that traditionally has been very good for marketing. | ||
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 20 2017 18:00 r33k wrote: I've spoken in favor of match-fixing multiple times over the years, and given that the scandal was 7 years ago almost everything's been said already. SAviOr has quoted wage disparity as one of the driving factors that led to him taking a leadership role in the racket (with Hwasin being his equal, but everybody's so thirsty for blood they just jump onto the bigger name), and although my numbers may be off he cited his bonuses for a single match win being equal to a B-Teamer's wages for a year. That's fucking insane, especially if you consider that the guilty parties were all teenagers and fresh 20 year-olds with no financial consultancy you can see how the cheating route would seem like the only option in sight for the players to seek adequate compensation for their time. To give a further idea of the financial illiteracy of some other top names from the older generation Yellow's been in the mob for literally fucking ever and Nada lost all his money gambling in the "stock market". Connections to criminal life are something very common for Koreans who quickly come across with large sums of money, just look at their reputation all over asia for a point of reference. Whether the timing of the scandal being so close to the blizzard lawsuit breaking KeSPA's back was a coincidence is up for debate and we don't have any definitive information to call, however the same can be said about lots of storylines like Flash's TvT streak. Korean news during the matchfixing investigation mentioned KeSPA having developed advanced methods to detect cheating due to similiar a scenario happening in the past, which nobody had ever heard of. The peak of Flash's legacy got a very large push from the map pool used in the final sanctioned years, and with the scene on average being so balanced there might not have been another bonjwa, a figure that traditionally has been very good for marketing. It was Justin, the vile piece of shit, that who played the ring leader role alongside sAviOr, not Hwasin. Hwasin was one of the professional gamers who were coerced into match-fixing by sAviOr. He was first approached by sAviOr online in December 2009. sAviOr said he was already into the match-fixing business, and offered Hwasin ₩3,000,000 to lose his up coming game. He paid Hwasin ₩3,000,000 in person, probably getting a cut for introducing him to match-fixing. For example, sAviOr lured DArKeLf into match-fixing by offering ₩5,000,000, but ended up only giving him ₩2,000,000, and DArKeLf was too timid to ask about the rest of his ₩3,000,000 that was promised. sAviOr was the biggest driving force behind the match-fixing scandal next to Justin. It doesn't matter whether you personally forgave him. Unless you are a millionaire and want to personally hire sAviOr as your Brood War fix, good luck finding him streaming Brood War as a content because you're in the minority here. sAviOr was the post-BoxeR everybody wanted. The adulation he got, and the special treatment he got was beyond what most professional players could ever imagine. Plenty of players have been fucked over worse financially (like you said, they were uneducated kids and most were treated like slaves), but most had enough integrity to not ruin their own legacy, and even worse, not ruin the careers of their fellow teammates and friends from other teams. sAviOr was a sociopath with unworldly talent. Any teammate of his would tell you so. I could fill the rest of this page outlining the flaws in his character, but I won't. If you want to support him, don't do it on this page making him out to be a victim. sAviOr knew exactly what he was doing, and was organized about it. Dolts like DArKeLf would be more fitting examples of an idiot who did the wrong thing without thinking much about it. If you really are that head over heels for sAviOr, I would suggest aiding him financially, because I'll be damned if I had to do it for your viewing pleasure. He's good at sniffing around for money, so if you have some way to arrange a mutually beneficial arrangement, I'm sure he'll be on his way. | ||
r33k
Italy3402 Posts
As I watch pro games now I always miss the quality that the teams' practice regimen provided, but it didn't take long for me to come to terms with the healthier lifestyle of self-management over the exploitation of the young. And KeSPA are the only ones to blame for the top star system, not the players. sAviOr specifically was never an attention seeker, and neither were Bisu, Jaedong or Flash after him. KeSPA turned them into stars rather than their results, and that's the reason why players now have to climb insurmountable mountains to reach their level of popularity. | ||
PVJ
Hungary5003 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/126530-hwasins-apology-letter https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1kwqj3/match_fixing_scandal_hwasins_apologetic_interview/ | ||
Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On September 20 2017 19:28 r33k wrote: I get that you enjoy being angry but personally I value adequate wage distribution higher than allegedly fair and ethical competition for the long term health of an industry. As I watch pro games now I always miss the quality that the teams' practice regimen provided, but it didn't take long for me to come to terms with the healthier lifestyle of self-management over the exploitation of the young. And KeSPA are the only ones to blame for the top star system, not the players. sAviOr specifically was never an attention seeker, and neither were Bisu, Jaedong or Flash after him. KeSPA turned them into stars rather than their results, and that's the reason why players now have to climb insurmountable mountains to reach their level of popularity. If you didn't notice, I have immense hatred towards those who brought down professional Brood War for their own personal greed, as flawed, and problematic as the scene was. So if you are going to trivialize things, or post the wrong facts to push your own agenda, chances are I'm going to be there to correct it. It's easy to pick holes at something, and pretend to have the solution for something better. There is nothing you said so far that absolved sAviOr from his actions, certainly not to the extent where it makes sense for people pay out of their pockets to grant your wishes. If you want to support sAviOr, do it yourself. Or get your facts straight (because people will be there to correct it), and make your case for him more persuasive, because right now your words are hardly going to convince anyone empty their wallets to fulfill your personal fantasy of seeing sAviOr back. | ||
Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
On September 20 2017 09:28 Letmelose wrote: UpMagic was probably one of the most disportionately talented terran players to have ever played the game. His strategical prowess was off the charts, but his actual fundamentals compared to the other top terran players of his time was severely lacking. Certainly one of the most interesting characters the game has had, in my opinion. He does boast a superior head-to-head record versus Flash, by a score of three to one. The only terran in history that can claim that trivia. Wow, I had no idea about that final stat. | ||
Ryo
8787 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES48897 Posts
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Ryo
8787 Posts
On September 21 2017 00:39 BLinD-RawR wrote: you're alive!! Yeah ^^ I was chatting with a guy at work yesterday abt programing, so I decided to login for old times sake. | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
Nice to see you Ryo! | ||
Ancestral
United States3230 Posts
On September 21 2017 00:23 Ryo wrote: It's good to be back after a few years and still find people here talking about the same stuff as before. Well in my case and probably lots of others, it's mostly because I'm an SC:R bandwaggoner after playing Brood War since near release (tho not knowing about KR until ~2006) until the pro BW scene ended, so my last memories are the end of the pro scene, since I had started playing SC2 but decided I wasn't into Atari 2600 ET clones. So I lived a long and dark period where I though BW was dead and ET 2 just wasn't fun. | ||
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