WCG USA Qualifiers Episode 3! - Page 4
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EGMachine
United States1641 Posts
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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NonY
8716 Posts
On August 04 2008 08:10 Louder wrote: I can't help but wonder why hackers should be banned if they qualify legitimately. Didn't Dino post FPVODs of his games? That's just the consensus and common rule. There are precedents from virtually every governing entity of a sport or game in the entire world. In the absence of a governing entity, our community takes up the responsibility of upholding this practice. | ||
Aux1
United States780 Posts
On August 04 2008 08:10 Louder wrote: I can't help but wonder why hackers should be banned if they qualify legitimately. Didn't Dino post FPVODs of his games? this is like saying why should professional baseball players be punished for using steroids if they promise to stop. | ||
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
PLEASE PLEASE Is anyone else raising your children? I cannot fathom young people being raised by a guy who is like "well, you can cheat, just dont get caught or if you do.. don't worry.. it shouldn't effect you in anything else." | ||
Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
Think about it in real life, if you are convicted of a crime, it goes on your record, but you can still find ex-criminals working their way back into the community, provided they are still clean / not committing crimes. Louder's point was: if Dino qualified for WCG Regionals legitimately, why should he be banned for something that happened about 5 months ago? Personally, I think the hackers should be banned, at least for this year's WCG, since they were all caught hacking this year... although I wouldn't be opposed to them being allowed to play NEXT year provided they play aren't caught hacking again. | ||
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Louder cried to an admin when G5 took a smoke break. An artificial boundary was crossed (as fabricated by the admin/louder) and G5 was w/o'd. Its scummy and stupid no matter how you splice it. Louder never posts here and for one of the few things he says be some kind of defense or argument FOR scummy hackers that have LITERALLY robbed people of a ton of money (dino) or knocked out legit gamers while cheating (Lastshadow/Spades) is fucking pathetic. Xeris, just for once, don't blindly defend someone cause they wear the same tag as you. Louder is wrong to be arguing for them. | ||
Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
just because I don't say "OMFG LOUDER YOUR SO CLEARLY WRONG" doesn't mean I am defending him... : | | ||
EGMachine
United States1641 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On August 04 2008 09:18 Xeris wrote: again, I was just stating what I thought Louder was saying ... I already said in my other post that I don't agree with what he said because I think they should be banned, at least for the time being. just because I don't say "OMFG LOUDER YOUR SO CLEARLY WRONG" doesn't mean I am defending him... : | Lemme convey something to you: When you contend that a person is making a sensible argument (I can only assume your comparison to real life treatment of ex-cons somehow translates to a comparable analysis with bw) you are in fact "siding" or "defending" their argument. Even if you say "I don't agree with it," The discussion can be divided as "us" (those that think hackers should burn) and "them" (those that think they deserve some sympathy). | ||
Louder
United States2276 Posts
The community is and always has been very fickle about "sanctioning" hackers. Just think how many times Testie got caught and more or less got away with it, because he was good, and people were on his nuts. He's not the only case but one of the bigger ones, because he went on to prove that he is a legitimately good player. So the point is this - if someone demonstrates that they are good enough to go to WCG regionals playing legitimately - in this case by recording FPVODs - is it still appropriate to sanction them for previous bad behavior in an event they've demonstrated legit play in? A 5 second youtube search finds this page: http://www.youtube.com/user/Zergie123 , which only shows a couple of videos - so I suppose there's an argument that he only recorded a couple of games and could have cheated in the others. But there is also the fact the games were played on ICCup AH, which is generally regarded as safe. Anyway, I'm not defending hacking, I never have, and to suggest otherwise is simply idiotcontrol and his exceptional strawman powers. I have never indicated sympathy for those caught hacking. Hacking is not allowed for obvious well established reasons and being caught hacking should come with consequences. I find Nony's comment about "professional sports" interesting because in the past I drew this same comparison in regard to behavior and conduct - and was told that I was full of shit, that it was irrelevant. It seems to me if we're going to be "sportsman" and call our hobby a "sport", then we should apply standards and rules to more than just "cheating". This is not to say I disagree with Nony, because I actually do agree on this point, but I don't think it's a black and white issue. I'm not an expert on rules in baseball, say what happens if you're caught using a corked bat and how it's dealt with, but I find it unlikely a player's future is simply terminated the moment he is caught cheating and never given a chance to redeem himself. It doesn't make any sense. Control, feel free to continue calling my behavior "scummy". Simple fact is, during the match, according to that admin, you cannot take an extended break without the other player's agreement. I had time constraints and had to leave very soon from where I was playing. Waiting 10 minutes to start a game would very likely mean having to leave during the game. Since G5 had been a complete asshole to me, I didn't see any reason to be agreeable. You can continue to bring this issue up and spin it in whatever way suits you every time I voice an opinion, but it's hardly relevant. | ||
Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
On August 04 2008 09:42 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Lemme convey something to you: When you contend that a person is making a sensible argument (I can only assume your comparison to real life treatment of ex-cons somehow translates to a comparable analysis with bw) you are in fact "siding" or "defending" their argument. Even if you say "I don't agree with it," The discussion can be divided as "us" (those that think hackers should burn) and "them" (those that think they deserve some sympathy). I don't think it's as clear as "us" vs "them" ... lumping everything into two broad categories like that is just plain wrong, the world is not black and white. I never even said his post was sensible, I was just saying what I thought he was trying to say, because I felt like you misinterpreted his post. Again, just because I don't explicitly say "you are totally wrong and stupid and retarded for making that post" doesn't mean I am defending it. If you are debating or having an argument in a mature and logical manner, you can disagree without being disagreeable. You don't need to be offensive and insulting to the other party. Think of it like me saying "Here's what I think he means, and now this is what I think (contrary to what I think he was saying)". That is NOT the same as me agreeing with him. | ||
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Lemme say this again cause you missed it: 1. Lastshadow had someone tell him shit on vent while WCG was being played. 2. Spades hacked in WCG| 3. There is a screen shot of dino talking about his ICCUP hack. He has hacked. And has lied about it. He put up SOME vods of the games he 2 gated.. not a great argument for why he should get Testie treatment. | ||
Louder
United States2276 Posts
Mister logician, please explain to me why Dino would offer to sell G5 a hack? Do you not realize just how little sense it makes? Someone who acts like a complete fucktard (ie G5) seems a less than credible source for screenshots. If Dino shares accounts as much as all the little kiddies in media do, it seems pretty reasonable that it wasn't even Dino on the account. Of course you will just attempt to marginalize these points by saying "omfg louder defending hacker", but that's not accurate at all - I'm simply stating the facts as I see them and asking again - What's appropriate punishment? Legitimately winning a prelim a few months after being caught hacking... I don't quite see why he should be banned (unless it can be proven he cheated in the prelim, in which case he should be) | ||
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On August 04 2008 09:51 Xeris wrote: I don't think it's as clear as "us" vs "them" ... lumping everything into two broad categories like that is just plain wrong, the world is not black and white. I never even said his post was sensible, I was just saying what I thought he was trying to say, because I felt like you misinterpreted his post. Again, just because I don't explicitly say "you are totally wrong and stupid and retarded for making that post" doesn't mean I am defending it. If you are debating or having an argument in a mature and logical manner, you can disagree without being disagreeable. You don't need to be offensive and insulting to the other party. Think of it like me saying "Here's what I think he means, and now this is what I think (contrary to what I think he was saying)". That is NOT the same as me agreeing with him. Xeris.. how the hell can you think that taking someone's argument and rewording it into a real-life example IS not a form of defense or aid? If someone is trying to convey something.. and evidently failing and someone else says "here, let me help you.." GUESS WHAT THEY ARE DOING? Here is a clue, it was hidden in the skit.. "HELP." woah. | ||
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On August 04 2008 10:00 Louder wrote: I wasn't talking about spades or lastshadow. Mister logician, please explain to me why Dino would offer to sell G5 a hack? Do you not realize just how little sense it makes? Someone who acts like a complete fucktard (ie G5) seems a less than credible source for screenshots. If Dino shares accounts as much as all the little kiddies in media do, it seems pretty reasonable that it wasn't even Dino on the account. Of course you will just attempt to marginalize these points by saying "omfg louder defending hacker", but that's not accurate at all - I'm simply stating the facts as I see them and asking again - What's appropriate punishment? Legitimately winning a prelim a few months after being caught hacking... I don't quite see why he should be banned (unless it can be proven he cheated in the prelim, in which case he should be) oh appropriate punishment is people don't give him the benefit of the doubt. People think he hacks, there is a SS of him admitting as much (sure it could be faked but so could kennedy's assassination, maybe it was a body double? jesus) and he has lied continually about both so he cannot be trusted. So in the end we are left with a hacker who was caught several times, one time of which cost people money (estro tourney) and he has shady circumstances now in WCG. YOU tell ME why we should forego history and just assume he was legit cause the SS isn't the best of evidence and NOT MANY hacks are workable on ICCUP.. why would we go against what has proven to happen just for the fucking sake of helping out a former hacker? | ||
Louder
United States2276 Posts
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Xeris
Iran17695 Posts
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