On January 22 2009 11:15 Hot_Bid wrote: the prospect of 5 TvTs in a row, possbly 2-3 with Canata (the master of long, drawn out half map split games) could make this last like 4 hours
On January 22 2009 11:15 Hot_Bid wrote: the prospect of 5 TvTs in a row, possbly 2-3 with Canata (the master of long, drawn out half map split games) could make this last like 4 hours
How sad would it be if Nada didn't pass this group. Plz Nada, not like this. Blaze these guys at least. You can lose to a P anytime but all T group with -_-;; ro16ers...
I get the feeling I would like TvT if I could understand it, but I never have any idea who's winning or what the heck is going on. I could never play Terran.
This is a bad TvT group though. A bunch of people no one cares about. Although I will root for Cuteangel simply because of his nick.
On January 22 2009 12:12 Zozma wrote: I get the feeling I would like TvT if I could understand it, but I never have any idea who's winning or what the heck is going on. I could never play Terran.
Yeah, it definitely does require more attention than other MUs. Mainly because there's never any decisive victories, and watching live cast/vod is difficult because the armies are split up and you're never sure where things are moving.
It's the only matchup where I think the quality of the stream is incredibly important, because if I can't see a detailed minimap or the upgrades, it's hard to follow.
I used to hate TvT. However, watching some recent ones (Up v Hiya and Notice v Mind come to mind) have slightly altered my opinion. These players aren't as interesting, though (except for NaDa).
On January 22 2009 12:12 Zozma wrote: I get the feeling I would like TvT if I could understand it, but I never have any idea who's winning or what the heck is going on. I could never play Terran.
The way I decide who is winning:
Base counts (gas >minonly) Fact counts Army Dropship count Map control
Very hard to get a formula as so many things constantly change.
TvT, it's basically this:
(After grabbing your nat)
Get more bases. Contain (or gain map control, but securing mid is hard until you have high tank count) Dropship play
The part that I find exciting about TvT is it's volatileness (I think this is the right word). Small things like killing tanks with 2 siege shots and a goli or a wraith add up. A dropship play can change the game around. The positioning of units is most important in TvT, including where mines are.
But the downside is if it gets past midgame into map splitting, the games take SO LONG and sometimes even get draws, resulting in another TvT. An analogy may be like DBZ, where it takes episodes for a fight that is 10 minutes long to happen. (That 30-second long battlecruiser fight after 1 hour of stalemate.)
EDIT: Also, Go Cantana! Canata. Wow that was dumb.
On January 22 2009 11:14 Ideas wrote: Maybe if the TvTvTvT group was Flash, Fantasy/ForGG, Leta and FBH I would want to watch more, but MEH I only care about nada :\
This is the tester-hyun-midas group of the MSL lol
same for me !!! i don't want to jinx Nada, but Nada's 4th MSL is coming!
I predict Nada will go 5-0 in this group. Yeah, thats right, he will win all the games, even the ones hes not playing in. Why? Because he is the starcraft equivalent of Chuck Norris.
On January 22 2009 12:59 Corinthos wrote: Glad to see NaDa back in the MSL. Hope he pulls through ~ genius in his play. Canata... make up your mind please, boxer bring back some sense in him!
On January 22 2009 12:59 Corinthos wrote: Glad to see NaDa back in the MSL. Hope he pulls through ~ genius in his play. Canata... make up your mind please, boxer bring back some sense in him!
On January 22 2009 14:18 Domestica wrote: i dont want to get anyones hopes up but on daum player (slide show) i saw some commercial saying MSL NEXT but might be a re run
it says nada's name in korean at the top right, so...
On January 22 2009 14:35 repomaniak wrote: why there is so much laggg on daum pot player?
I believe that they limit bandwidth to non-Asian IPs.
It used to work fine for everyone back then, until they started doing this.
so if someone get asian ip it will probably get better?
Yes, it runs with no lag if your IP is from Asia.
(is this confirmed?)
I'm not sure about other parts of Asia, but a Chinese ISP(where I am), the daum player is just as bad as the west. I usually use yaoyuan or corinthos, but now that both are gone, I just don't bother anymore.
wow, these are some of the fastest TvT i ever seen.... forget the 4 hour idea with Group B being delayed.... Canata just owned Ruby..... with dropship + wraiths....
I also realized that they finally took down the "Bisu" opening song before the games.... hahaha, it seems they finally decided and accepted Bisu's recent defeat against Savior.....
So this should be exciting.... NaDa vs Canata.....
*note* So happy I'm watching this on Live TV... =P
On January 22 2009 15:04 Pioneer wrote: I can't seem to find a p2p icon on the plu page, im i supposed to click one of the 3 add boxes in the center or one of the links around the webpage?
I'm watching on LIVE TELEVISION since I happen to be overseas to Korea atm.... though starting next month, I have to be on the same boat like all of you back in NYC since that's my home... =(
On January 22 2009 15:09 QuickStriker wrote: I'm watching on LIVE TELEVISION since I happen to be overseas to Korea atm.... though starting next month, I have to be on the same boat like all of you back in NYC since that's my home... =(
Seriously, even if he's not you're favorite you gotta love NaDa. He's adorable, he's an incredible player, he won more tournaments than I can name, and he's just awesome. So consistent for a former bonjwa.
Also that article about his dad's death and how he donated his winnings to a childrens hospital and his little poem on his internet cafe', shit was heartwarming.
ya nada won canata had him raped but let him get his 3rd up faster and then didnt have his turret line up in time so nada blocked canatas 4th/5th with dropships and then just rode the econ advantage.
canata's siege came a bit too late so nada was able to push him back to the high ground, then he went 2 wraiths which didnt do anything. sucks for him, was real close to a sure win. he outa advance anyway.
On January 22 2009 15:35 DoctorHelvetica wrote: NaDa is so likeable.
Seriously, even if he's not you're favorite you gotta love NaDa. He's adorable, he's an incredible player, he won more tournaments than I can name, and he's just awesome. So consistent for a former bonjwa.
Also that article about his dad's death and how he donated his winnings to a childrens hospital and his little poem on his internet cafe', shit was heartwarming.
On January 22 2009 14:24 koreasilver wrote: Is Canata still the best TvT player around? Or has he kinda fallen off that nowadays.
He was never the best tvt, its just supposedly his best matchup.
Actually, this is debatable. I'm going to make the argument that, in spring 2008, Canata had the world's strongest TvT.
OK, take a trip in your wayback machine to February 14, 2008. Arena MSL qualifiers are underway and the 2008 Shinhan Bank Proleague is just about to commence. Canata is already recognized as a TvT sniper, but he's probably more famous for being the "failed" T1 Terran prodigy - never living up to his masters BoxeR and iloveoov. Anyway, Canata is playing in the MSL Survivor tournament and 2-0s his group - including a win against RuBy.
From this point, Canata advances to 2-0 his Arena MSL group by owning Sea and UpMagiC who, at that point, were arguably two of the strongest TvT players out there. + Show Spoiler [NB] +
Note: Canata then had the unfortunate fate of having to play Kal in the Ro16, where he lost 1-2 in a close series on Protoss-favored maps (Tiamat comes to mind). I think that if Canata had a better draw in that MSL, he could have shocked many fans.
Those MSL wins were wins 1, 4, and 5 of Canata's 10-game TvT winstreak. 2 and 3 were DarkElf and none other than Flash - and let's not forget that this was at exactly the time when Flash was absolutely indestructible. I mean this kid was fresh off his Bacchus OSL romp and he was playing flawlessly. And Canata comes out in the first match of the 2008 Proleague - a match for which Flash had no excuse not to be prepared - and just destroys the Ultimate Weapon in a straight up game. For some perspective, consider that Flash had won 5 games straight before this game with Canata - all vs. Stork (GSI and Bacchus) - and after this game he went on to win 11 more games straight (including vs. Bisu in the ace game of the match in which Canata scored his win). In other words, were it not for Canata, Flash would have gone on a 17-game winstreak (ceteris paribus).
This was not a case of 14cc -> BO loss from Flash - in fact, Flash proxied his first rax in the middle of the map and it was Canata who had to deal with early aggression. Basically, anyone who thinks Flash was the best TvT player at this time should watch this game. It's hard to argue with game results.
Win 6 of Canata's streak was against fOrGG on Wuthering Heights, and let me tell you this game was a piece of art. Less than two months before fOrGG would 3-1 Flash in the Arena MSL (perhaps laying claim to "strongest TvT", if briefly - especially considering his ez pz 2-0 of Sea in the Ro16), Canata took him to school in a straight up domination. Early defense with flawless micro/repairing, transition into super-effective dropship play, well-timed expansions...this game was Canata's TvT at its peak. If you want to watch:
Wins 7, 8, and 9 were cleanup against SaiR, GanZi, and Lomo in the Proleague. Let's not forget that this win against Lomo came less than a week before Lomo dropped 2-3 to Flash in the Arena MSL, meaning that Lomo was a) at the height of his SC career thus far and b) practicing TvT like a madman. Win 10 of Canata's TvT winstreak, which placed him in a tie for the longest TvT winstreak of all time, was a cakewalk against RuBy (who, coincidentally, was also the first victim of Canata's streak).
Fittingly, it was the perennial TvT master Iris who broke Canata's streak in his next PL game (on July 1, 2008). However, Canata turned right around to beat go.go in T1's Proleague semifinal against OGN (T1 lost 3-4 when Bisu lost to Luxury in the ace...the 2008 PL was a trying time for Bisu fans to say the least).
I contend that, in spring 2008, for the duration of this 10-game winstreak, Canata was the best TvT player in the world. Who are the other contenders:
Flash: undoubtedly the best player in the world over this period, however, see above: he lost to Canata. This should be enough said, but I'll pile on a bit more evidence. Flash went 10-4 against Terran over this period, which seems comparable to Canata's 10-0 considering how many games Flash was playing. However, his three non-Canata losses were to fOrGG, RuBy, and go.go - all players Canata beat over this period. Flash was also on the verge of proving that his TvT was quite mortal by squeaking past Lomo 3-2 and then dropping to fOrGG 1-3 in the Arena MSL. Sea: lost to Canata. Also lost to fOrGG in the Arena MSL in quite spectacular fashion. Iris: Iris has always been ridiculous at TvT (~57% winrate even now) but over this period in spring 2008 he was basically off the map - going 6-5 in PL and playing in only the GSI. Also, and this is pretty key, during Canata's TvT streak Iris went 1-5 against other Terrans. 4 of those losses were to Sea, Flash, UpMagiC and Lomo - all players that Canata beat during his streak. fOrGG: lost to Canata (again, see above). Lomo: lost to Canata (see above). UpMagiC: ditto. firebathero: purely from a subjective "game quality" standpoint, in spring 2008 I think FBH had the strongest TvT of any Terran that Canata did not beat. However, he also had some really ugly losses: to HiyA, TheStC, go.go, and fOrGG. Canata beat the latter two during his reign, and no doubt would have manhandled the former two. Mind: see above. Hwasin: Hwasin was playing decent TvT at this point. He went 9-4 while Canata went 10-0. However, Hwasin had the luxury of playing NaDa four times over this span (going 3-1). He also met powderpuffs Sunny, FrOzean, and Special. Hwasin's losses were to Mind, Sea, NaDa, and Midas - Canata owned Sea and was easily playing more convincing TvT than Mind or Midas at this point.
Who's left? Just to be thorough, let's consult this thread for the players who boast a peak TvT ELO higher than Canata's, at the end of his 10-game streak. Canata's peak TvT ELO at that point was 2138, which puts him at the tenth-highest peak TvT ELO of all time. Who's ahead of him? Players I've already dismissed above are crossed out.
XellOs: 2193 Sea: 2192 NaDa: 2183 Flash: 2178 Iris: 2177 iloveoov: 2159 Goodfriend: 2153 Casy: 2145 Midas: 2141 Canata: 2138 Note: some players' peak TvT ELOs may now be higher (Flash, Sea?) but that's irrelevant for the purposes of this post.
That leaves XellOs, NaDa, iloveoov, Goodfriend, and Casy to challenge Canata for "best TvT" in June and July 2008. I hope I don't have to explain why those choices are ridiculous.
The argument stands: In spring 2008, Canata displayed complete mastery of the Terran versus Terran matchup. He went undefeated in ten games from February 14 to July 1, beating many contenders for the title of "best TvT" in straight up fights. Other Terrans' vT game just didn't stand up to Canata's in this period.
-- Much love to TLPD ^^ ...and sorry for triple post
On January 22 2009 16:18 Avidkeystamper wrote: I guess Leta hasn't been on the scene long enough?
Leta was "on the scene" in this period (he was just starting to make waves in PL) but he was not established as a good player and his TvT was really untested. He only played against pretty weak players, and dropped several of those games - vs. Sunny comes to mind.
On January 22 2009 16:15 oneofthem wrote: flash is the best tvt over a larger number of games.
This post is almost completely unrelated to my argument but...I totally agree.
you can't draw better player comparisons from one or two games played. flash is just superior in pretty much every aspect of the game to every other terran.
On January 22 2009 16:15 oneofthem wrote: flash is the best tvt over a larger number of games.
This post is almost completely unrelated to my argument but...I totally agree.
you can't draw better player comparisons from one or two games played. flash is just superior in pretty much every aspect of the game to every other terran.
im quite sure his talking about a diffrent period of time (i.e. not the best current tvt'ers)
On January 22 2009 16:15 oneofthem wrote: flash is the best tvt over a larger number of games.
This post is almost completely unrelated to my argument but...I totally agree.
you can't draw better player comparisons from one or two games played. flash is just superior in pretty much every aspect of the game to every other terran.
So...instead of basing my argument on games played, I should just drop irrelevant one-line absolutes like you? I challenge you to make a legitimate argument that Flash's TvT was better than Canata's in the time period I mentioned. You're going to have to explain how Flash lost to someone who was worse than him.
On January 22 2009 16:15 oneofthem wrote: flash is the best tvt over a larger number of games.
This post is almost completely unrelated to my argument but...I totally agree.
you can't draw better player comparisons from one or two games played. flash is just superior in pretty much every aspect of the game to every other terran.
im quite sure his talking about a diffrent period of time (i.e. not the best current tvt'ers)
Exactly right, that's why I called oneofthem's original comment unrelated to my argument. I agree that Flash is the best TvT player right now (or even of all time) but my point was that Canata was better at the beginning of last year.
On January 22 2009 16:15 oneofthem wrote: flash is the best tvt over a larger number of games.
This post is almost completely unrelated to my argument but...I totally agree.
you can't draw better player comparisons from one or two games played. flash is just superior in pretty much every aspect of the game to every other terran.
So...instead of basing my argument on games played, I should just drop irrelevant one-line absolutes like you? I challenge you to make a legitimate argument that Flash's TvT was better than Canata's in the time period I mentioned. You're going to have to explain how Flash lost to someone who was worse than him.
Edit: "better" -> "worse", silly mistake
well, he lost a few games. it is simply not a strong argument. i dont really care enough to make a positive argument for other positions.
On January 22 2009 16:15 oneofthem wrote: flash is the best tvt over a larger number of games.
This post is almost completely unrelated to my argument but...I totally agree.
you can't draw better player comparisons from one or two games played. flash is just superior in pretty much every aspect of the game to every other terran.
So...instead of basing my argument on games played, I should just drop irrelevant one-line absolutes like you? I challenge you to make a legitimate argument that Flash's TvT was better than Canata's in the time period I mentioned. You're going to have to explain how Flash lost to someone who was worse than him.
Edit: "better" -> "worse", silly mistake
well, he lost a few games. it is simply not a strong argument. i dont really care enough to make a positive argument for other positions.
People lose games to worse players all the time for a number of reasons.
1.Cheesed 2.Build Order Loss 3.Stupid Mistake (Misclick, etc.) 4.The Element of Luck, etc.
So losing a game or two to worse players really says nothing about your skill. It's consistent loss that is a mark against your play. But I agree with jwd that Canata had the top TvT for a while. Not the entire spring, I think firebathero's play started to outclass Canata's in the later half of the spring (regardless of stats).
On January 22 2009 16:45 Sulunais wrote: ..marines die and armory can't get finished
YES!
On January 22 2009 16:46 Sulunais wrote: Frozean vultures harass starports, goliaths have arrived. Wraiths can't get more kills. Goliaths are chasing the starports home.
On January 22 2009 16:46 Sulunais wrote: Frozean vultures harass starports, goliaths have arrived. Wraiths can't get more kills. Goliaths are chasing the starports home.
Allah be praised! C'mon Frozean, keep up your habit of beating out superior players!
On January 22 2009 16:46 Sulunais wrote: Frozean vultures harass starports, goliaths have arrived. Wraiths can't get more kills. Goliaths are chasing the starports home.
Allah be praised! C'mon Frozean, keep up your habit of beating out superior players!
WTF is this....only a KTF fan would cheer for FrOzean
Stop being sore over how T1 dismantled you guys in PL and WL and root for the good guy!
On January 22 2009 16:46 Sulunais wrote: Frozean vultures harass starports, goliaths have arrived. Wraiths can't get more kills. Goliaths are chasing the starports home.
Allah be praised! C'mon Frozean, keep up your habit of beating out superior players!
WTF is this....only a KTF fan would cheer for FrOzean
Stop being sore over how T1 dismantled you guys in PL and WL and root for the good guy!
On January 22 2009 16:46 Sulunais wrote: Frozean vultures harass starports, goliaths have arrived. Wraiths can't get more kills. Goliaths are chasing the starports home.
Allah be praised! C'mon Frozean, keep up your habit of beating out superior players!
WTF is this....only a KTF fan would cheer for FrOzean
Stop being sore over how T1 dismantled you guys in PL and WL and root for the good guy!
How could the opponent of an Angel be the good guy?
On January 22 2009 16:46 Sulunais wrote: Frozean vultures harass starports, goliaths have arrived. Wraiths can't get more kills. Goliaths are chasing the starports home.
Allah be praised! C'mon Frozean, keep up your habit of beating out superior players!
WTF is this....only a KTF fan would cheer for FrOzean
Stop being sore over how T1 dismantled you guys in PL and WL and root for the good guy!
a Samsung fan might. Only maybe though :p
KHAN fans are dumb, but not dumb enough to cheer for CuteAngel :D :D
On January 22 2009 16:46 Sulunais wrote: Frozean vultures harass starports, goliaths have arrived. Wraiths can't get more kills. Goliaths are chasing the starports home.
Allah be praised! C'mon Frozean, keep up your habit of beating out superior players!
WTF is this....only a KTF fan would cheer for FrOzean
Stop being sore over how T1 dismantled you guys in PL and WL and root for the good guy!
How could the opponent of an Angel be the good guy?
Canata drops in the main! Battlecruisers take it slow getting across, but clean it up once they arrive. A CC and supply lost but not too much else. Canata loses a flighted CC because he's too lazy to repair.
Canata with tanks and many goliaths taking down temples in the centre. He has a few battlecruisers against Frozean's larger force, but neither seems inclined to engage. Yamato strikes a couple of Canata's tanks.
The two fleets dance round Frozean's 3 o'clock. A separate few cruisers of Frozean's almost get ambushed by goliaths. Frozean seems to have abandoned 3 o'clock, but then chases after Canata's fleet after it moves in. They're trapped at Frozean's main in the corner and killed off.
If this group has taught us anything, it's that Hyuk will be mediocre enough to luck his way past Kal, Leta and Practice, and get played by his coach every proleage match for the next couple of years.
Wow, that's the most accurate and best predictions I ever seen..... good job!!!! NaDa and Frozen into the ro16! Though my bets were NaDa (of course) and Canata.... oh well...
Wow, that's the most accurate and best predictions I ever seen..... good job!!!! NaDa and Frozen into the ro16! Though my bets were NaDa (of course) and Canata.... oh well...
rofl "last edit 12:43 TODAY" rofl, predictions my ass, he changed it hahahaha
Wow, that's the most accurate and best predictions I ever seen..... good job!!!! NaDa and Frozen into the ro16! Though my bets were NaDa (of course) and Canata.... oh well...
rofl "last edit 12:43 TODAY" rofl, predictions my ass, he changed it hahahaha
TL runs at korean time, and MSL didnt start before 1400 so he edited before the games even started.
On January 22 2009 20:59 Sprite wrote: Frozean is gonna be like the terran version of backho.
its funny to say this because during one of the OSLs everyone kept saying "BackHo and Frozean will make a very strong rivalry in the future" after their katrina game.
Wow, that's the most accurate and best predictions I ever seen..... good job!!!! NaDa and Frozen into the ro16! Though my bets were NaDa (of course) and Canata.... oh well...
i saw the edit time. i think he edited it after the results were in...
Wow, that's the most accurate and best predictions I ever seen..... good job!!!! NaDa and Frozen into the ro16! Though my bets were NaDa (of course) and Canata.... oh well...
i saw the edit time. i think he edited it after the results were in...
Wow, that's the most accurate and best predictions I ever seen..... good job!!!! NaDa and Frozen into the ro16! Though my bets were NaDa (of course) and Canata.... oh well...
i saw the edit time. i think he edited it after the results were in...
the edit time is to early for that
it was a legit prediction
I edited it to change the location of the line-breaks.
i am really liking the way this MSL is turning out.
nada can hang in tvz/tvt with the best. his tvp is currently his weak point and so far some pretty big threats have been eliminated like + Show Spoiler +
bisu, much, and now kal
hopefully the other groups will have a similar outcome