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I didn't upload my own replay but here's an example replay because it's very similar to my build and strategies
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/749
I watched through this replay, and the zerg goes lings, roaches, hydras, and infestors. I think one of his crucial mistakes was not taking the expansion next to his base blocked by the rocks. Other than that, I don't know what else he could have done.
I am consistently ranked anywhere from 10-20 in my platinum division and I play zerg. I win about 1 in 5 games against terran and it frustrates the hell out of me and my wins are against noobs. The terran always go marine mauraders and medivacs and once he gets stim, i cannot win.
My army will consist of lings, roaches, and hydras. I don't even bother getting infestors anymore because i can get 3 more hydras or 6 more roaches for the gas cost. Infestors also always die after casting fungal growth because of shitty cast range and shitty armored 90 hp. Sigh... if only I had dark swarm...
I've tried banelings and they work quite well at stopping a push but when I go banelings, I usually don't have enough roaches / hydras / lings to continue a counter attack because it takes quite a few banelings to have a significant effect against mauraders.
I've tried mutalisks but he will have too many mauraders and can run through my base before i can run through his... not to mention turrets are much stronger this version
I can never get far enough the tech tree to get enough broodlords or ultralisks. 2-3 just don't cut it.
If you give advice, please support with high level replays.
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I am also having some serious difficulty with T's MMM. I am a rank 2 gold player so it would be difficult for me to give you advice. However, one thing that helps me is to scout as much as I can and keep tabs on the Terran army; this way you can estimate his armies' unit mixture. Then you can build units accordingly. i.e if he has a vast majority of mauraders then cut back on ur roaches and maybe pump some more speedlings. If I find any pro game replays that demonstrate good zerg play against MMM I'll be sure to post it here.
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i've seen idra beat lzgamer once... ONCE out of like 5 games played...
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infestor/hydra/speedling/roach eats me alive whenever I try to do MM in TvZ. Well placed fungal growths are just insane. Now I go mech every TvZ.
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i just got a brief lesson from lzgamer, he says the key to beating terran is use fungal growth on the medivacs
i'm going to have to try this
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ZvT is way way way easier than TvZ, especially vs mmm.
Go FE, then ling/bling. Time your ling/bling production to his push. Use hints such as if he went reactor or tech lab first. The less marines he has the less blings u should have, its pretty simple. Lair you can go infestor or mutas. Mutas is way easier, but you gotta know how to fend off a thor push.
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Infestors definitely are amazing against mmm. When the terran throws in a couple tanks/thors though getting the plagues off gets a bit dicey.
I think the big key to the matchup is creeping as much of the map as you can pretty early.
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fungal growth?
just a thought
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As a Terran player the biggest thing I worry about is a macro oriented Roach masser, who throws in a few Hydra's behind them.
You can get 3/3 ~ 20 minutes into the game, with the Hive upgrade...That is very hard to take out especially with Marauder-Medi. Use Nydus Canals to wreck havok on expo's, and infest the whole map with Creep Tumors + Gilal Reconstitution makes Roaches move crazy fast.
Anyways, that's my perspective as a T player.
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On April 05 2010 11:36 FiercE wrote:
My army will consist of lings, roaches, and hydras. I don't even bother getting infestors because i can get 3 more hydras or 6 more roaches for the gas cost. Infestors also always die after casting fungal growth. Sigh... if only I had dark swarm...
that is your problem. fungal growth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>3 hydras. fungal growth is like 8 second plague/ensnare. units cant kite, and they take alot of damage because their units are relatively low health. marines take 80% after a stim and marauders take ~35% after a stim. it is insanely effective that you get a blob of 10-15 units hit with that kind of damage. So far watching players in the upper levels of various tournaments if zerg gets good fungal growth on the MMM blob he always wins
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On April 05 2010 12:10 FiercE wrote: i just got a brief lesson from lzgamer, he says the key to beating terran is use fungal growth on the medivacs
i'm going to have to try this
This is so he can't build up a medivac fleet by running with his support units when his main army dies.
I did some experimenting with speedling/burrowbane/infestor play. I was going mutalisks midgame as a transition to banelings/infestors, but I wasn't having much success at the time because that was before marine/reactor nerf. The missile turret buff might make it not worth doing now though.
I think you could simply open ling/bane and go infestors from there. Adding hydras to kill off those medis (since no mutas) and I think you might be able to contain the terran pretty effectively, which gives you time to expand and macro up.
(Another cute idea: if he's lacking in AA, get drop, load up some banelings in a couple overloads, and go banebomb his minlines.)
Another thing to always do: Place creep tumors and spew overlord creep once you get lair. Make sure if terrran is attacking that he's going on creep to do it. The movespeed bonus is incredible.
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On April 05 2010 12:24 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 11:36 FiercE wrote:
My army will consist of lings, roaches, and hydras. I don't even bother getting infestors because i can get 3 more hydras or 6 more roaches for the gas cost. Infestors also always die after casting fungal growth. Sigh... if only I had dark swarm...
that is your problem. fungal growth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>3 hydras. fungal growth is like 8 second plague/ensnare. units cant kite, and they take alot of damage because their units are relatively low health. marines take 80% after a stim and marauders take ~35% after a stim. it is insanely effective that you get a blob of 10-15 units hit with that kind of damage. So far watching players in the upper levels of various tournaments if zerg gets good fungal growth on the MMM blob he always wins
It isn't even really the damage the plague does that is important. It is that it works sorta like the sentry force field that it just screws up the MMM unit arc.
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Bainlings and infestors rape MMM. Also Roachs and hydras rape them to keep the Roachs infront of hydras and watchs the hydras mow them down. If medvacs are in range focus them witha few hydras win.
Altho i would still like to see the lurker come back was one of my fav units for zerg in bw : P. But ya zerg is stronge or just fine VS just MMM.
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you guys all say infestors rape the shit out of terran yet don't provide replays
you think i haven't tried infestors?
i've been going through all the platinum zvt replays on sc2rc.com and the ratio thus far is 1 zerg win for 8 terran wins
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Im having the same problem as Fierce. I'm top 8 in my Platinum division and win only 1/10 of my games versus Terran. My other matchups I win probably 60-70% of the time but my matchup vs Terran is probably measly 10%. I've tried infestors a few times to no avail and have actually tried every other zerg unit, also, but ill try infestors again and see how it goes.
Also most imporatnt thing is I don't find it possible to expand as Zerg. When are you supposed to expand? I can expand against terran if i get roaches but then they can just coutner that with marauders. Also, against protoss are you supposed to expand after you get hydras? Because in that matchup I find that its impossible to expand before that.
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On April 05 2010 13:17 Disastorm wrote: Im having the same problem as Fierce. I'm top 8 in my Platinum division and win only 1/10 of my games versus Terran. My other matchups I win probably 60-70% of the time but my matchup vs Terran is probably measly 10%. I've tried infestors a few times to no avail and have actually tried every other zerg unit, also, but ill try infestors again and see how it goes.
Also most imporatnt thing is I don't find it possible to expand as Zerg. When are you supposed to expand? I can expand against terran if i get roaches but then they can just coutner that with marauders. Also, against protoss are you supposed to expand after you get hydras? Because in that matchup I find that its impossible to expand before that.
Most zerg players say expand fast or die 10 - 14 most times it seems /shrug
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On April 05 2010 13:50 xnub wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 13:17 Disastorm wrote: Im having the same problem as Fierce. I'm top 8 in my Platinum division and win only 1/10 of my games versus Terran. My other matchups I win probably 60-70% of the time but my matchup vs Terran is probably measly 10%. I've tried infestors a few times to no avail and have actually tried every other zerg unit, also, but ill try infestors again and see how it goes.
Also most imporatnt thing is I don't find it possible to expand as Zerg. When are you supposed to expand? I can expand against terran if i get roaches but then they can just coutner that with marauders. Also, against protoss are you supposed to expand after you get hydras? Because in that matchup I find that its impossible to expand before that. Most zerg players say expand fast or die 10 - 14 most times it seems /shrug lol its impsosible to hold any expansion you do at 10-14 .... alot of people tell me you need to expand late.
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I've also been having difficulty as zerg against Terran MMM particularly on Blistering Sands. Would love some replays (as OP asked for)...
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I've had mixed results in this match up. I am not ranked in 1v1 so this is from 2v2 plat experience.
I've noticed that hydras rape everything and that they are really key to success. Fungal growth has given me mixed results because if the battle takes place in a cramped area, infestors have a hard ass time getting in super shitty range to case fungal.
In my experience, my Ling/Roach/Mostly Hydra/3 infestor army usually wins the fight UNLESS the terran went overboard on the medivcas (6-10).
An additional problem is that during larger battles, there are enough units creating a wall that the medivacs can heal comfortably without being close enough for your hydras. I have not tried adding corruptors but I can see them getting owned something fierce real quick.
Banelings have helped too in these giant battles but even if you win, you may not have a force strong enough to finish the push.
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As a mainly terran player, I make sure to get additional medivacs and I am a big big fan of siege tanks in mid-late game. Just 4-5 can dish out so much punishment (provided their army isn't ling heavy where you'll end up splashing your own army). Ravens with defense drone do wonders because not taking that first 400-1000 damage changes the fight entirely (with stim, it's dirty.)
The main thing I would suggest is to keep tabs on the terran army and don't wait for him to setup in front of your base to fight. Try very hard to catch him in the open where he can't make a super line of marauders-that-slow-for-no-good-reason and pick off those medivacs. All it takes is a few hydras. It's also much easier to clean up with banelings and land fungal growth in the open.
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On April 05 2010 14:16 Vexx wrote: I've noticed that hydras rape everything and that they are really key to success. .
In the ZvT match up, the most cost effective counter to mass hydras is mass marines. Marines are weak little buggers but they're dirt cheap for the terran and once they get the combat shield they're even more worth it. This also leaves terran with stockpiling gas not being spent on marauders, which is quite handy for ravens.
If you're planning to mass hydras, my best suggestion is to get an abundance of infestors to fungal growth the crap out of the terran army. But it's important to bring in roaches as well. Think of them as your damage soaking tanks.
In the midst of writing this post, I've come under the feeling that army composition really matters so much more for the zerg in late game SC2 than in SC1. Balancing roaches, hydras and infestors before any kind of switch to broodlords or slowlisks is the key. Massing simply doesn't work.
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fungal growth and throw your sh1t on him, that could be anything from mass-hydra to speedling-baneling-roach-hydra combo. Not sure it will work but that's how it goes
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Ling bling muta is still viable. The micro isn't too easy for LingBlingMuta because blings have to kill the Marines now the Marauders. Don't worry Blings when they are killed they still do AOE dmg. Just get the speed upgrade and you will be fine. You can add splice of hydras and roaches in the mix.
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you don't need anything other than speedlings and banelings. you don't even need a lair as long as you know hes not building banshees. make nothing but speedlings and banelings and you can always beat a mmm army cost for cost. add in some mutas for map control or infestors if you're feeling cute while you expand all over the map. don't bother wasting gas on roaches or hydras.
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So what works best vs MMM + Banshees?
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Bane/Ling + Hydra. Hydra has one an incredible dps but it's quite fragile, so some combination of roaches/lings/banes are needed to keep them alive. Hydras also kill every air unit there is quite handily. Also hydras are cool combination with Fungal Growth to MMM ball becouse range upgraded Hydras outrange stuck marines.
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On April 05 2010 19:21 Walde wrote: Bane/Ling + Hydra. Hydra has one an incredible dps but it's quite fragile, so some combination of roaches/lings/banes are needed to keep them alive. Hydras also kill every air unit there is quite handily. Also hydras are cool combination with Fungal Growth to MMM ball becouse range upgraded Hydras outrange stuck marines.
I think I'm just not using Fungal enough and my bling micro must be awful, since Marauders end up absorbing all the hits and the Marines live.
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how many infestors do you usually have for fungal? sometimes it feels like fungal is doing nothing to his army. probably i should always have more than 4 of them.
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On April 05 2010 19:50 imperator-xy wrote: how many infestors do you usually have for fungal? sometimes it feels like fungal is doing nothing to his army. probably i should always have more than 4 of them. 2 should cut it.
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Off topic:
Anyone feel like they could use the lurker around mid game here? Every race as a decent splash damage unit to force micro. Zerg currently only has the fungal growth. Lurkers would fit perfectly to solve this problem.
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zerglings just need to learn how to cleave
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On April 05 2010 20:54 Greth wrote: Off topic:
Anyone feel like they could use the lurker around mid game here? Every race as a decent splash damage unit to force micro. Zerg currently only has the fungal growth. Lurkers would fit perfectly to solve this problem. you got banelings bro
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On April 05 2010 21:08 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 20:54 Greth wrote: Off topic:
Anyone feel like they could use the lurker around mid game here? Every race as a decent splash damage unit to force micro. Zerg currently only has the fungal growth. Lurkers would fit perfectly to solve this problem. you got banelings bro
Which are only good versus marines and hellions if you get lucky ... I'm talking about an all-out splash damage unit like the colossus or tank.
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32 replies... ZERO REPLAYS
thanks guys
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On April 05 2010 21:34 Greth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 21:08 Geo.Rion wrote:On April 05 2010 20:54 Greth wrote: Off topic:
Anyone feel like they could use the lurker around mid game here? Every race as a decent splash damage unit to force micro. Zerg currently only has the fungal growth. Lurkers would fit perfectly to solve this problem. you got banelings bro Which are only good versus marines and hellions if you get lucky ... I'm talking about an all-out splash damage unit like the colossus or tank.
Its called an Ultralisk...it literally has Cleave.
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Have you considered researching burrow?
It makes Infs survive a bit longer, and also a bunch of burrowed banelings in the right spot can rape.
Just a thought tho.
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
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On April 05 2010 21:34 Greth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 21:08 Geo.Rion wrote:On April 05 2010 20:54 Greth wrote: Off topic:
Anyone feel like they could use the lurker around mid game here? Every race as a decent splash damage unit to force micro. Zerg currently only has the fungal growth. Lurkers would fit perfectly to solve this problem. you got banelings bro Which are only good versus marines and hellions if you get lucky ... I'm talking about an all-out splash damage unit like the colossus or tank.
mutalisks have splash damage also.
so actually, zerg have 4 splash. blings/mutas/ultras/fungal growth
terran has hellion/tank/hsm/thor AA
toss has colossus/storm
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the only worthwhile post in this entire thread
thank you very much, i will be watching these when i get home
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I don't really have this problem, I think it's a pretty even matchup but you really have to size up the T army composition, if it's marauder heavy more lings. It's very important to have a good unit composition for the zerg in sc2, I can't stress this enough. you need a lot of roaches NO MATTER WHAT. roaches are the damage soakers (like zealots for p) and as long as you have roaches alive your army can match his. you need to mix in a good ratio of hydralisks as the damage dealers and zerglings as damage dealers / fodder as well. it is also critical that you upgrade ranged attack as fast as you can and don't slack on the carapace either or he will roll you over. I add a third chamber when I take a third base generally for melee attack, it makes lings so much more potent (they're practically useless if he has armor upgrades and you don't have any melee attacks) and they also really make banelings do much more damage. It's also a good choice for end game transition (ultras, or broodlords both benefit from this). A few banelings will work wonders as well if you can get them off (which is much easier when you land a fungal growth). the one thing you do NOT want to do is engage his army in a tight choke, you WILL lose. fight in the open and on creep as much as you can, terran can't kill your tumours without costing a scan or until they get ravens out by which time you can have most of the map creeped.
I'm a plat zerg top 20 usually
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My personnal experience (Europe Platinum division 20ish (used to be 10 before reset with pretty good ratio over 64% of win) is that a well balanced zerg army mixed with roach lings/blings will rock every terran army, at least in the open, but witch map doesn't provide that kinda space ? Actually, zerg used to be my best match up, like in SC:BW and it's now my worse, you are in the constant fear of a baneling bust that will cost you the game if you're not well prepared (and even sometimes when you are); afterwards come the mutas, that will rape a base/lonely structure/unit popping out/scv in no time, and even if the terran managed to get a fully defended base, he's gonna have a lot of static defense that cost a lot, whereas the Zerg has a flying killing machine providing with map control and harassing expand. If the game goes late game infestor come, fungal growth the shit of your MMM and you get owned by zling/bling or Hydras that is now much stronger since it's T2.
Seriously the match up TvZ is really hard to play, especially since i encounter so much fast roaches push, that most of the time kills me if I try a fast expand before gas.
I can upload some replays if you like, I lost a bunch of TvZ this week, u'll have pretty much all i've been saying here.
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On April 05 2010 23:33 FunKaDeLiC wrote: My personnal experience (Europe Platinum division 20ish (used to be 10 before reset with pretty good ratio over 64% of win) is that a well balanced zerg army mixed with roach lings/blings will rock every terran army, at least in the open, but witch map doesn't provide that kinda space ? Actually, zerg used to be my best match up, like in SC:BW and it's now my worse, you are in the constant fear of a baneling bust that will cost you the game if you're not well prepared (and even sometimes when you are); afterwards come the mutas, that will rape a base/lonely structure/unit popping out/scv in no time, and even if the terran managed to get a fully defended base, he's gonna have a lot of static defense that cost a lot, whereas the Zerg has a flying killing machine providing with map control and harassing expand. If the game goes late game infestor come, fungal growth the shit of your MMM and you get owned by zling/bling or Hydras that is now much stronger since it's T2.
Seriously the match up TvZ is really hard to play, especially since i encounter so much fast roaches push, that most of the time kills me if I try a fast expand before gas.
I can upload some replays if you like, I lost a bunch of TvZ this week, u'll have pretty much all i've been saying here. upload every decent tvz replay you have
i promise i'll watch them
i really want to break into the top 10 and zvt is holding me back
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On April 05 2010 12:23 Rothbardian wrote: As a Terran player the biggest thing I worry about is a macro oriented Roach masser, who throws in a few Hydra's behind them.
You can get 3/3 ~ 20 minutes into the game, with the Hive upgrade...That is very hard to take out especially with Marauder-Medi. Use Nydus Canals to wreck havok on expo's, and infest the whole map with Creep Tumors + Gilal Reconstitution makes Roaches move crazy fast.
Anyways, that's my perspective as a T player.
How often do you allow nydus drops to actually succeed?
And if you see someone deliberately going roaches with no lings for surround or hydras for damage or infestors for FG, you should be able to mass pure marauder and medivac while teching yourself. Also getting seige tanks and a couple turrets around your expos makes it very hard to break if you keep track of the roach army. Just make sure your MM force gets there before an attack and you're fine. Not to mention stim marauders can get around the map so fast you'll have total map control and be able to take all the expos and even the high yield without much issue.
granted I haven't seen your games but you said "it's hard to take out ESPECIALLY with marauder-medivac" which is silly, caus marauders hard counter roaches, so with stim, equal armies result in marauders winning, and with medivacs, it's just no contest, especially if you micro correctly and get good concaves against zerg.
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[url blocked] [url blocked]
Dunnow if that will help you, but here it is. ive got some more, but they are from previous version, one against orly where i get roflstomped (but he is really good actually so ) and one against moman where i get bashed in a game i chose to FE.
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Calgary25937 Posts
On April 05 2010 21:42 FiercE wrote: 32 replies... ZERO REPLAYS
thanks guys You're welcome. I'll close this so you don't have to upset yourself further.
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